Can we get a combined arms thread going?

Fuck yeah Power Dolls.

>>11262250
While we're on the topic, I enjoyed Power Dolls a good bit.

>>11262233
Unfortunately, "that one franchise /m/ can't stop blabbering about" is shit at combined arms. Everything in it spins around the mecha: tanks, fighters and spacecraft are junk, and they're never seen working alongside the mecha.

The other "real robot" franchises (Macross, Votoms, Patlabor, FMP, Geass, etc) follow the same pattern: only mecha are allowed to shine and the rest is shit.

The best examples are in videogames: MuvLuv (although we rarely see tanks or other vehicles, they do exist), Powerdolls, the Command & Conquer Tiberium saga, etc.

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Combined arms is best arms

Dougram is all about the combined arms.

>>11262323
I guess the Battle of Stanrey did not start with an infantry assault that was used to remove the artillery which kept everyone else from going in?

And they aren't using drones and on-site operators to guide the mech's actions in Gasaraki either. Never mind that the chinese guy totally mission-kills a mech with a recoilless rifle.

Neither was a large part of the fighting in Heroic Age actually done by mechs, drones and battleships.

>>11262323
The exception is that Balls and GMs are fielded simultaneously in the original series, and the Core Fighters are frequently used alongside the Gundam. The Guntank too would frequently provide artillery support for the Gundam.

What makes it hilarious is that in the background, the Federation fielded tanks and bombers against Zeon mobile suits and wasn't completely ineffective. Zeon too used Magellas, Dopps, Gaw attack carriers, and mobile suits.

Actually come to think of it, early on Garma used combined arms to fight White Base.

But yeah. Combined Arms is a hilariously dead form of combat in mecha.

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>>11262323
>The other "real robot" franchises (Macross, Votoms, Patlabor, FMP, Geass, etc) follow the same pattern: only mecha are allowed to shine and the rest is shit.

So are we going to fight over whether the Macross is a battleship or a mech now?

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>>11262323

Yeah, I realize. That's what I wanted though. To try and collect as much as we can think of here.

Sometimes other series have their moments though.
In Votoms there's at least one or two space battles with fighters flying alongside the ATs and getting a few kills.

Hell, even 0079 occasionally had this as well.
0079 had the Odessa Campaign which was decent about it and 8th MS Team had air support vehicles on both sides now and then as well.

Gundam Wing even had some...for all the good it did.

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>>11262364
Also, there's this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z7Qr1eJoi4&list=PL2D6730EFA1E632E0&index=9

Dougram pretty much starts with an infantry/mech ambush on an armoured train.

>>11262340

Oh, and two aircrafts pretty much totalled the MCs mech and prevented him from completing his mission in Gasaraki.

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>>11262323
> tanks, fighters and spacecraft are junk, and they're never seen working alongside the mecha.

I know that both your usage of words and your grammar is correct, but what you're saying is wrong all the same.

>>11262323
>Everything in it spins around the mecha: tanks, fighters and spacecraft are junk, and they're never seen working alongside the mecha.

Yes, yes, the G-Fighter/Core Booster and the Gundam didn't stop those warheads. The Gundam just leaped into the stratosphere and cut them in half.

Shit, don't tell me all of this is caused by AZ being fucking terrible in this department?

>>11262233
Can we count the last battle of Overman King Gainer as this? It was all mecha, but it was a bunch of different types of mecha, from those Panthers and Dobek 2s and their guns, cannons, and grenades to Gain's Emperanza.

>>11262481

A lot of Gain's battles featured everyone trying to do their part and most of them featured at least two types of machines on both sides.

>>11262497
Yeah.

They even made those grenades that were really effective for Silhouette Engines.

>>11262340
I was talking about the big name franchises. Ryosuke Takahashi does have some semblance of appreciation for other types of combat vehicles.

>>11262469
>Yes, yes, the G-Fighter/Core Booster and the Gundam didn't stop those warheads. The Gundam just leaped into the stratosphere and cut them in half.
Do you realize that the G-Fighter is a specialized support craft for the RX-78, correct?

>Shit, don't tell me all of this is caused by AZ being fucking terrible in this department?
What the fuck does Aldnoah Zero have to do with this? Why are you bringing it up?

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>>11262359
>>11262428
The "huge, exceptional special snowflake, protagonist vessel with the big weapons that is almost always operating solo" isn't quite standard equipment. Most of science fiction suffers from that. Even LoGH, unfortunately.

"Spacecraft" means regular fleet ships and their space fighters. Most of the time, they're used as cannon fodder.

>>11262598
>I was talking about the big name franchises. Ryosuke Takahashi does have some semblance of appreciation for other types of combat vehicles.

You mentioned Patlabour as an example of a series that doesn't do combined arms... well it's kind of a series about a police unit using a mech that's meant to stop civilian labours without sending any shells crashing through wooden houses in a densely built-up city.

And in its universe, military labours basically carry the same loadout as a Wiesel tankette, only at three times the volume and at the cost of the Wiesel's other two crewmembers. That's a downgrade for air-deployed units, no matter which way you turn it.

In Macross the battleships are pretty important, actually. They even named the whole franchise after one. Don't know shit about VOTOMS, saw only some parts of the Kumen arc, but people seem to forget that the first batch of designs and the overall story basically point towards it being a fantasy series about space knights. They simply decided that they like the more blocky designs better than the space ninja robots.

>Do you realize that the G-Fighter is a specialized support craft for the RX-78, correct?

Good thing it's not canon according to the movies, but the FF-X7-Bst Core Booster is. And that one's upgrading the Core Fighter with two mega particle cannons, making it capable of pretty much owning anything and everything. So it's correct to say that in-universe Sayla's core fighter and Amuro's Gundam teamed up to stop a bunch of nuclear warheads.

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>>11262655
and Dougram was pretty decent with combined arms, even had some anti armor linear guns mounted on jeeps not to mention Chico's big e-gun

>>11262655
>In Macross the battleships are pretty important, actually. They even named the whole franchise after one.
See >>11262641. Same deal as Yamato or Battlestar Galactica.

>What the fuck does Aldnoah Zero have to do with this? Why are you bringing it up?

Well it's the most recent source of repeated claims that each and every mecha anime has dumb grunts and does not feature any instances of combined arms.

>>11262641
>"Spacecraft" means regular fleet ships and their space fighters. Most of the time, they're used as cannon fodder.

"Spacecraft" actually means: "A vehicle capable of moving in outer space under its own power", but whatever.

>Most of science fiction suffers from that. Even LoGH, unfortunately.

Have you actually watched any of these shows? Walküren and Spartanians in LoGH kill the fuck out of battleships all the time. Not only that, they actually solo them. These grunt assault fighters are extremely dangerous in that series.

>>11262682
"Spacecraft" in the context of that post. I should've said "standard spacecraft"...

>Have you actually watched any of these shows?
Yes, and (in case you missed it), I was talking about the idea of "special snowflake protagonist vessel", which is most of space-based science fiction, including LoGH: Reinhard has the Brunhilde.

>Walküren and Spartanians in LoGH kill the fuck out of battleships all the time.
All the time? No: we only see them in action a handful of times. Also, I said "most of the time". LoGH is an exception in this case, with standard fighter craft being able to do something else than dying in dozens.

>>11262679

The claim was that

>The other "real robot" franchises (Macross, Votoms, Patlabor, FMP, Geass, etc) follow the same pattern: only mecha are allowed to shine and the rest is shit.

Which simply isn't true. It's not even right to say that it isn't correct because it simply isn't true. The Anon being pretty damn busy trying to find excuses why anything contradicting his or her claim doesn't count doesn't actually work to strengthen the argument.

>All the time? No: we only see them in action a handful of times. Also, I said "most of the time". LoGH is an exception in this case, with standard fighter craft being able to do something else than dying in dozens.

Look, I've been doing this "discussion"-thing online for a few years already. I'm not going to quote what you said. Just read your own post regarding LoGH. I know that I'm not going to change your mind about the topic.

>>11262724
>Which simply isn't true. It's not even right to say that it isn't correct because it simply isn't true.
It is true, as much as it angers you: in all the franchises that I enumerated, only the mecha have any important role. Combined arms goes from rare to non-existant. Other combat units such as tanks, APCs, IFVs, artillery, bombers, fighters (space or atmospheric), etc, only serve the role of cannon fodder to be blown up in droves. This also includes standard ships.

>Look, I've been doing this "discussion"-thing online for a few years already.
Really? Then why the fuck do you keep leaving a space after quoting?

>>11262323
Did you even see Patlabor 2, anon? Labors get shat on constantly since idiots keep trying to use them like MBT's.

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Guys what if

What if

No really stay with me here. What if there was a mech series where all of the stereotypical war vehicles could transform into mecha?

Yutori has already outlined concepts of a tank-type transformer, so we can't possibly be too far off from that kind of thing.

>>11263766
Sauce?

>>11262405
The best part was how some members of blue quad stars getting owned by combined arms instead of solely wreaked by dougram only.

captcha: 265 ideonlg

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I read all posts and we have to admit that aside a few token & specific sequences taken from various show, there is little to no Combined Arms even in "real robot" fiction.

I know FMP is a very BAD example of credible mech, but in this series the only thing that can keep up with the way Arms Slave are deployed, keep the ground and get retrieved, are gunship and.... other Arm Slave.

If an operation have been planned to take full advantage of mech (even through plot-device), it's logical only mech are seen.

We can I agree I think that the reason there's so little Combined Arms operation is because it would require to take out of the story the elements making Mech superior.

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>>11264891
>there is little to no Combined Arms even in "real robot" fiction.
Once you reach Jihad-era Battletech, you pretty much operate under the assumption that any force has a mix of mechs, vees, BA and infantry.

>>11262921
Anon, I'm not even mad. I listed examples, but you're dismissing them either because the series they are from aren't "important", because "yes, this particular writer actually does combined arms, so we can dismiss him" or "no, these instances of combined arms here are plot-related, they do not count".

And that even though the original claim is that
>The other "real robot" franchises (Macross, Votoms, Patlabor, FMP, Geass, etc) follow the same pattern: only mecha are allowed to shine and the rest is shit.

You clearly do not give a shit for anything that contradicts the original statement, which again leads me to believe that you're one of those people trying to immunize AZ from criticism regarding its absolutely awful performance of anybody and anything that isn't the MC and his little clique.

Mind you, you aren't even trying to defend it, you're trying to immunize it.

>>11262724
>Which simply isn't true. It's not even right to say that it isn't correct because it simply isn't true

How is it not true?

When did anything that wasn't a KMF get a moment to do anything other than shoot at something off screen once and explode, or just explode? Helicopters, tanks and even mobile bases frequently went up like firecrackers. What was even focused on Patlabor outside of Labors? What did any combined forces do in FMP, when it was generally all about Arm Slaves? Where was ANY combined arms action in Macross when everyone used fighters, and ships mainly existed to launch them or fight other ships?

When did any combined arms exist in Votoms at all, when the bulk of operations in the show consist of the use of ATs? Yeah, we got some helicopters and a few armored vehicles at the start, but it's hardly as though they were constant.

Combined arms has always taken a backseat in mecha. Gundam is about the only franchise that tries to avert that on a semi-regular basis, and even then, it's mostly about the mobile suits.

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Royal Space Force has its moments.

>>11264992
>When did anything that wasn't a KMF get a moment to do anything other than shoot at something off screen once and explode, or just explode? Helicopters, tanks and even mobile bases frequently went up like firecrackers. What was even focused on Patlabor outside of Labors? What did any combined forces do in FMP, when it was generally all about Arm Slaves? Where was ANY combined arms action in Macross when everyone used fighters, and ships mainly existed to launch them or fight other ships?

You may have noticed that I did not talk about any of these shows but Macross and Patlabour.

But first off - "combined arms" doesn't mean that everyone does everything, but that the units cooperate to cover for each other. So yeah, the Macross firing up its lazors while the Variable Fighters keep the bombers off its back DOES count as combined arms.

And Macross clearly showed battleships fighting alongside carriers and fighters. I think that even in Seven we already had scenes of scouts and in Frontier, they upped the game by including dedicated marksmen, scouts, drone command units, mainline units and heavy figher-bombers in a single tactical combat group. But I guess that doesn't count because you can find some REASONS.

Same'd apply to Gundam, btw, where Core Fighters, Guntanks and Guncannons all worked together with the White Base.

I also imagine that the generic suicide charges some of the battleships tend to perform in the final battles of Macross would count as cases of combined arms as they are usually meant to create a breach for fighters rather than other battleships. The ships do what only they can so that the fighter can do their job BETTER.

>>11265476
>>11264992

Patlabour is about civilian labours being used to stop OTHER civilian labours. They have reasons to not use RPGs, tanks or attack choppers in such a scenario. I already told you exactly why the military ones are actually pretty shit and do not outperform conventional military machinery.

Again, I haven't seen enough of VOTOMS to have an opinion on it and neither have I seen enough of Code Geass to make an assessment. I do have my opinions on the former and I already voiced them.

As far as I can tell from FMP, Mithril isn't capable of supporting combined arms and their mission does not require it either. I think we did see the combined use of mechs and tanks by one of their opponents in the first episode of season two though.

>>11265503
The AV-98 and AV-0 aren't civilian labors, they were designed for law enforcement and had variants for military use.

>>11264958
>"yes, this particular writer actually does combined arms, so we can dismiss him"
I mentioned Takashashi as an exception, but my emphasis wasn't him and his other series but Votoms: his main franchise and the one with the most emphasis on the mecha.

>"no, these instances of combined arms here are plot-related, they do not count".
What I said is that the main units of the story working together does not count as combined arms. It's what it's expected of them. "Combined arms", for the purposes of this discussion, is when the "lesser" units (regular ships, tanks, IFVs, APCs) work in tandem and prove themselves useful to support the mecha, instead of seeing them killed by the scores.

>which again leads me to believe that you're one of those people trying to immunize AZ from criticism regarding its absolutely awful performance of anybody and anything that isn't the MC and his little clique.
WHY THE FUCK DO YOU KEEP BRINGING ALDNOAH ZERO (AZ??) UP? WHAT THE FUCK DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH FUCKING ANYTHING WE ARE DISCUSSING HERE?
I've only watched a single episode of that thing. I don't care much for it at this point. I never made a single mention of it until you came forward to use it a fucking strawman.

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"You ready, tanks? Let's do this!"

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>>11264891
These are definitely some good points.
It's true that /m/ stuff does generally avoid getting into combined arms but there is the occasional series that does attempt it somewhat often and not just as the obligatory tanks there to get shot up.
Anyway, someone tell me if I miss anything.

Some examples being:
-All You Need Is Kill - the manga, but I thing the book addressed the matter too.
-Phantom - A manhwa that was pretty good at this. That said, if you ever find it, read it for the art and not the plot.
-Detonator Orgun - though their effectiveness was limited
-SDF Macross had a good deal of this. And when humans weren't doing it, the Zentradi were with their ground battle pods and space/air battle pods. Macross kind of sidesteps the need a lot of the time with the Valkyries just being able to switch modes and mix and match for whatever they need.
-Movie Patlabor - When the military is seen, they use a good mix of stuff other than Labours.
-Blue Gender: The Warrior - The scene posted earlier in the thread. Not a whole lot else though.
-Gasaraki again sidesteps it because the TAs are virtually never used in formal military to military engagements, but it does address the TA performance in comparison fairly credibly.


Examples where it's just kind of there:
-Power Dolls - Not all that effective, but there.
-Votoms - Occasionally you see Votoms fighting alongside tanks or helicopters. In a few space battles during the last arc, there are some fighters flying alongside the Gilgamesh ATs (I think) that get about the same number of kills. These examples are few and far between though.
-Gundam Wing - Tanks/jets sometimes pop up with Leos but this is generally when Heavyarms is slaughtering the lot of them. The assault on Sanc Kingdom was a good example of combined arms on OZ' part though.
Gundam Seed - Though never really effective or memorable.

Recommendations I plan to check sometime:
-Dragonar
-FLAG
-Dougram
-FMP
-Overman King Gainer

Others?
Exo-Squad?

>>11268497
>Gundam Seed - Though never really effective or memorable.

With the exception of the Stargazer battle, I mean.

>>11268501
Which one? None of them had any good examples of combined arms. The first episode was only a bunch of tanks against a rogue GINN. Although I'll give it some props for the use of artillery: that's a rare sight

>>11268563
Well, yeah, that's the one.
It was tanks and helicopters, right?
It was a while since I saw it though. Wasn't sure if there was any infantry or self-propelled artillery in the fight as well.

>>11268497
Other notable examples (from video games):
- MuvLuv: although TSFs are the focus of the series, tanks, bombers and artillery —naval and land-based— do play an important role. Its setting is about 90% of the fun of it.
- Gungriffon: Tank-hunting mecha. Basically, everything that Code Geass could've been with a good perspective.

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>>11268721
Thanks, but I was mainly counting shows.
I kinda figured about Muv Luv since I know a bit about it and I absolutely loved Gungriffon Blaze.

Thanks anyway, though. And I totally agree on GC's missed potential.

>>11268721
>Its setting is about 90% of the fun of it
Which is another way of saying that the plot and characters are utter dogshit.

>>11268902
It's a high-school harem that was turned into a GRIMDARK war story. What did you expect?

>>11268721
>- Gungriffon: Tank-hunting mecha. Basically, everything that Code Geass could've been with a good perspective.

Gungriffon is cool enough, but in CG that would only work as prequel material, since the tanks were proven to be easy prey.

>>11269243
Can i play Gungriffon without any knowledge of moonrunes?

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I know FMP is a baaaaad example for realism but we can find a few case of combined arms.

In the first FMP there was gunship used for operational recon, and although that's a non-combat roles they needed helicopter or cargo plane to rescue the hostage.
In FMP:TSR, the attack of of that underground tunnel also had troops to rescues the hostages.
And at the beginning when Sosuke end-up all alone and surviving thanks to Magic-field and Deus Ex Submarine, the enemy used both tank, AS, artillery and fixed anti-air position to protect their positions.

>>11270675
Given that all but one of the games (Gungriffon II) had English releases, yes.

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The most underrated /m/echa show in this season

It's basically Front Mission the animu

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>>11270955

>>11268563

Wasn't there JOSH-A, which had Linear Tanks give good accounts of themselves?

Also, in regards to combined arms tactics in mecha works, isn't there Front Mission, which has tanks and helicopters as frequent foes depending on the game, and a story in Dog Life. Dog Style about infantry equipped with anti-armor missiles for anti-wanzer work?

And another thing, in VOTOMS' case, wasn't there Mellowlink?

And another thing x 2, isn't there Dragonar, which had its Ball expies give Metal Armors a run for their money, and with Takeyuki Kanda later on directing 08th MS Team, led to Inviciball?

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>>11270963

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>>11270970
Delicious combined arms

>>11270955
Is it good though?

>>11270992
It's not spectacular, but far from bad. it also love to screw with common cliches while not being ambitious.

It's basically a comfortable, if slow paced ride.

>>11270992

If you like shows about characters who act like human beings for a change then yeah, it's a good one. It starts a bit strange as we are thrown into the middle of it and only ever start getting explanations about character's motivations from episode four onwards.

The mechs too look pretty nice in animation.

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>>11262233
Oh yeah PowerDoLLs.

I kind of find it hilarious how in the videogames, one of the scariest enemy unit you don't want to leave alive at the end of player phase is... a mundane attack helicopter.

>>11271135
Helicopters can and will fuck you up, son. There's a reason why the Soviets had so much organic anti-air in their units.

>>11270955
Thanks for bringing this up. I'll check it out.

>>11270966
>Wasn't there JOSH-A, which had Linear Tanks give good accounts of themselves?
No. Did you watch the show? Tanks are cannon fodder to ZAFT during that battle.

>>11270966

One controlled by a veteran apparently managed to take a GINN piloted by panicking children with him in some side-story.

>>11272095
To be fair, EVERYTHING is cannon fodder to ZAFT in SEED. Battleships? Taken down in one shot. Colonies? Blown the fuck apart in three or so shots.

I don't see how it was called a war when ZAFT had the overwhelming advantage. Every battle against them had the EA utterly decimated while ZAFT suffered zero losses.

>>11272095

>>No. Did you watch the show? Tanks are cannon fodder to ZAFT during that battle.

Oh yeah, see 3:04, 3:52, 3:57-4:02, and 4:25-4:27 of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DLY-xw4nKQ&index=33&list=PLJV1h9xQ7Hx89jH49IgnVuKyuRNTj11PK

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>>11268497
8th MS had some instances.
The Zeeks had some helicopters, tanks Dopps in a few instances and the Feds had fighters/bombers and the trucks.

You could even maybe count the Guntank MPs as tanks if you wanted to. They come across more as that than mobile suits to me anyway.


Also combined arms were totally used (and failed) against the Kampfer in 0080.

>>11276818
They fucking threw every thing they had at the Kampfer and still failed to kill it

>>11279993
They didn't 'fail' to kill it. It just took far longer than it should have.

>>11262323
>only mechas are allowed to shine
Only VFs and Destroids are used widely in Macross though.
Like one anon said, they later get specialised VFs and fighter-bombers fighting in a combat group. Just look at SMS.
>Ozma and Alto: General combat
>Michel: Long range support
>Luca: Recon, drones, and general awacs
>Koenig Monster: bombardment

Hikaru did used a destroid in that one episode where he was caught in some zentradi riot or something and he couldn't get to a VF.

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>>11264290

To me the best part about that was the fact that Crinn, even with Dougram, could not fight the entire 24th worth a damn, considering that he was utterly wrecking Combat Armor squadrons left and right for well over 50 episodes.

>>11265158
Holy shit yes, this. That entire sequence was fucking amazing.

>>11280001
>They didn't 'fail' to kill it. It just took far longer than it should have.
Except that is right. 'They' did fail to kill it.
Only when the Alex appeared and tore poor Misha to shreds with the machine cannon it was all over.

>>11279993
>They fucking threw every thing they had at the Kampfer and still failed to kill it

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said.

>combined arms were totally used (and failed) against the Kampfer