The Catholic Reaction m8s, it's happening. >greatest

OP here, one of my favourite passage from the Bible, from the Book of Wisdom (Protestants consider this book apocryphal):

[13] For God made not death, neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living. [14] For he created all things that they might be: and he made the nations of the earth for health: and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor kingdom of hell upon the earth. [15] For justice is perpetual and immortal.

[16] But the wicked with works and words have called it to them: and esteeming it a friend have fallen away, and have made a covenant with it: because they are worthy to be of the part thereof.

[1] For they have said, reasoning with themselves, but not right: The time of our life is short and tedious, and in the end of a man there is no remedy, and no man hath been known to have returned from hell: [2] For we are born of nothing, and after this we shall be as if we had not been: for the breath in our nostrils is smoke: and speech a spark to move our heart, [3] Which being put out, our body shall be ashes, and our spirit shall be poured abroad as soft air, and our life shall pass away as the trace of a cloud, and shall be dispersed as a mist, which is driven away by the beams of the sun, and overpowered with the heat thereof: [4] And our name in time shall be forgotten, and no man shall have any remembrance of our works. [5] For our time is as the passing of a shadow, and there is no going back of our end: for it is fast sealed, and no man returneth.

[6] Come therefore, and let us enjoy the good things that are present, and let us speedily use the creatures as in youth. [7] Let us fill ourselves with costly wine, and ointments: and let not the flower of the time pass by us. [8] Let us crown ourselves with roses, before they be withered: let no meadow escape our riot. [9] Let none of us go without his part in luxury: let us everywhere leave tokens of joy: for this is our portion, and this our lot. [10] Let us oppress the poor just man, and not spare the widow, nor honour the ancient grey hairs of the aged.

[11] But let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble, is found to be nothing worth. [12] Let us therefore lie in wait for the just, because he is not for our turn, and he is contrary to our doings, and upbraideth us with transgressions of the law, and divulgeth against us the sins of our way of life. [13] He boasteth that he hath the knowledge of God, and calleth himself the son of God. [14] He is become a censurer of our thoughts. [15] He is grievous unto us, even to behold: for his life is not like other men' s, and his ways are very different.

>>5151114
[16] We are esteemed by him as triflers, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and he preferreth the latter end of the just, and glorieth that he hath God for his father. [17] Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be. [18] For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies. [19] Let us examine him by outrages and tortures, that we may know his meekness and try his patience. [20] Let us condemn him to a most shameful death: for there shall be respect had unto him by his words.

[21] These things they thought, and were deceived: for their own malice blinded them. [22] And they knew not the secrets of God, nor hoped for the wages of justice, nor esteemed the honour of holy souls. [23] For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him. [24] But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world: [25] And they follow him that are of his side.

[1] But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. [2] In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery: [3] And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace. [4] And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. [5] Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.

The thing is that postmodern assertion that there is no truth already encompasses the Catholic claim to truth. Resurgence and reaction are therefore impossible. Also I'm a fucking homo faggot who loves to suck dick and if being a giant fucking cock gobbling homo goes against infallible truth, then I want to be fallible and wrong.

>>5151104

>greatest antidote to a Postmodern "there is no truth" degenerate world is a Church that has claimed to have the infallible truth for 2000 yrs

no its not, how do you think postmodernism developed? it was a reaction to absolute truth-tards

>deep theology, philosophy, metaphysics

nope lol, maybe if you're a retarded realist or something

>beautiful art

thats definitely true

>edifying spirituality

nope. some people have edifying catholicism, but more catholics have a repressive, vindictive, or useless spirituality. this variance is usually in accordance with their personality: catholicism doesnt really do anything or change anybody

>ancient traditions that give your life a sense of meaning/purpose, guidelines for raising a good family, etc.

this is all great, but I think it would work better if it were more ethnically and geographically relatable

instead of all of us pledging fealty to some homophobic italians, let us develop into spartan city states instead, where honor and duty are matters of life and death, and pride in one's own people is real

>Satan mad

>implying Satan didn't invent Catholicism

>Protestants jelly

that i can get behind

>>5151104
catholics that have repeatedly changed their stance on issues throughout time
christianity doesnt have any legitimacy as a religion anymore after their compromises to stay popular over time
islam on the other hand is really the only religious solution left

The passage prevents the conflict between unbelief and belief so well. See, if you don't believe in a Redeemer or in retribution (punishment of the unjust, consolation for the just), then you are free to live a life of pleasure, oppressing whoever comes in your path. This is the logic of tyrants, "there is no life after death, so I should claim as much power as I can in this life". Also the philosophy of YOLO / hedonists. If there is no God then the poor man has no defense against the tyrant, because there is nobody to revenge him. One of the greatest evils in this world is that people see the wicked getting away with evil, and see that we are all doomed to die, and this leads them to a form of despair where they lose hope in justice, and so they choose to be unjust, "because it doesn't profit to be just if it puts you at a worldly disadvantage". This is why even if one thought the existence of God is improbable or impossible, one still OUGHT to believe because justice depends upon it.

>>5151147

what about orthodox christianity or orthodox judaism?

catholicism is such scum
literally worse than kikes

>>5151149

>implying revenge is justice
>implying the poor man is better off if the tyrant is punished after death
>implying you can choose your beliefs

jesus fucking christ

>>5151128
>The thing is that postmodern assertion that there is no truth already encompasses the Catholic claim to truth.

Yeah, and the Catholic claim to truth encompasses doubters/naysayers, including those that doubt/naysay everything.

>nope. some people have edifying catholicism, but more catholics have a repressive, vindictive, or useless spirituality. this variance is usually in accordance with their personality: catholicism doesnt really do anything or change anybody

Read up on the saints and martyrs and come back to me on that.

>>5151158

>Read up on the saints and martyrs and come back to me on that

>implying I didnt grow up in catholic school
>implying I dont know about the saints
>implying I believe those bullshit stories
>implying the religion you choose is the most important factor in a religious epiphany

jesus fucking christ

>>5151149
>one still OUGHT to believe because justice depends upon it

grandpa, please go

i'm reading the imitation of christ at the moment. hard lessons in there.

>>5151157
>>implying revenge is justice

I don't mean revenge as in bitter vengeance so much as the righting of wrongs, justice.

>implying the poor man is better off if the tyrant is punished after death

OK, you are walking along the street one day and a man decides to kill you. In your last breath you say, "you won't get away with this, you'll be found out". Nope, the man is rich and powerful and can cover up the murder no problem. So, without God to console you for the injustice done to you and to punish the murderer, your life ends in utter darkness - your life has been unjustly taken from you and there is no hope of justice. This is why the poor man requires God as a protector, because if there is no God then the tyrant is free to dominate and oppress with impunity, and the world is unjust and there is no hope and life is utter vanity.

>>5151161
You clearly don't know about the saints otherwise you would not have typed what you just typed.

>>5151164
So what do you think is the meaning of Voltaire's, "if God did not exist, it would be necessary for us to invent him"?

>>5151147
>catholics that have repeatedly changed their stance on issues throughout time

Issues such as?

>>5151149
Kind of like if you buy dinner, and you get a plate of crap: did I just waste my money, you ask to yourself? NO, comes back a resounding cry, THIS BUILDS CHARACTER. EAT IT ALL. Then you gobble up the plate of crap. Thank god you didn't waste your money after all!

>>5151183
i think it's fine to believe in god. it's when you try to sequester it to one religion where things go wrong, especially in the case of devil-worshiping catholics

>Yeah, and the Catholic claim to truth encompasses doubters/naysayers, including those that doubt/naysay everything.

this is not how logic or argument works. start reading some non-pleb books and hopefully you'll see why

>>5151173
Gotta love the fucking saints.
>dat humility
>dat steadfastness
>dat glory
but, my favourite is still, and always will be, motherfucking prophet Isaiah. Went his own way, did his own thing, and God smiled upon him for it.

>>5151173

enlighten me then, fucking faggot

so tired of "you know how i know you're wrong? because of what you said" posts

>>5151104

For real, the most rebellious thing you can possibly be in modern America is a practicing, believing Catholic.

God's grace working through the mechanism of the dialectic.

I don't understand Protestants with their sola scriptura.

Do they not realize that the only reason they read the Gospel of John and not the Gospel of Thomas is that the Catholic Orthodox Church canonized one and stopped copying the other?

They wouldn't have a bible or a faith if it weren't for the Catholic Church.

It's profoundly irrational. If I were a Christian I would be a Catholic.

>>5151128
In the same way that postmodernism brushes aside assertions of Truth, can not a reaction to postmodernism brush aside its claims? They wash from the back of the wise like so much water. And the proof of their incorrectness is found in the private misery of all their lives, for Plato, no stranger to divine wisdom, states that those who do not adhere to Truth, which is Justice, are doomed to be perpetually unhappy.

>>5151201
Absolutely anything, anytime a damn Pope writes a bull.

It goes from speaking Latin at the Mass, burning or not cats, making peace with Muslims, tolerate or not non-single priests to condemn firmly pædophilia or hiding the Jews during the holohoax.

>>5151283

they believe that Catholicism was fine at those stages, and that it lapsed into mystical, heretical, and corrupt practices thereafter

>>5151310

None of those things are matters of faith, those are all matters of small-t tradition. Papal infallibility has been invoked less than a dozen times in 2000 years. It was invoked for the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary I can't remember the others but they were even more technical theological issues.

>>5151104
I like everything about Catholicism except Jesus.

Ps. It's also no antidote to postmodernism, since it's exactly its problems that caused modernity and postmodernism in the first place.

>>5151271

in american i guess, because we are protestant

i hope you dont feel the same about being a practicing, believing protestant in america

>>5151317

Either the Catholic Church stands or the Bible falls. "The gates of Hell will not prevail against it." There is no table of contents in the Bible.

If the Church was good to make the Bible it's good today. If the Church wasn't good to make the Bible there is no Bible.

>Catholicism

It's fine and all, but apart from historical connections to >muh heritage it's not necessarily better than the other major religions.

>>5151327

Protestants:

"I had one ecstatic emotional experience so I'm guaranteed a place in heaven" (once saved always saved)

"My wealth is a sign of God's favor" (prosperity gospel)

American Protestants are disgusting.

>>5151320
Don't bother trying to persuade me. I'm a Catholic, I didn't intend to criticize it. The Church adapts itself, that's pretty good. I would not like to burn cats on holidays and pray in Latin.

>>5151333
Catholicism and Orthodoxy, together with the Ethiopian Church and the Coptic Church, are, I suppose, more 'considered' than Protestantism and the other newer forms of Christianity.

They recognize that, though Christianity is at once a unique and special thing that has come from God into this world, it is also an aspect of history that has origins and consequences like the rest of history. This is why all these 'old' Churches have more respect for 'pagan' philosophers and works of art.

Meanwhile ever since Luther equated his constipation with spiritual struggle, Protestants have insisted that Christianity must, in a sense, be a closed circle. It comes from God, only what comes from God is valid, and all that matters is what comes directly from God.

Protestantism is sort of a naive worldview, born of idealism and ecstatic experience. It assumes that God is, or should, always be there to make you feel super keen.

>Catholic
Being a part of the one true church, founded by the son of God, Jesus Christ, and continued under St. Peter, the first Pope, ordained by the son of God himself. Complete the Sacraments, bringing yourself closer to the Holy Spirit.

>Protestant
Follow a religion founded in the 16th century AD, by mortal--a German heretic and sinner--Martin Luther, known slanderer and defacer of the house of God. Ignores the holy Sacraments.

Ya, I'm so glad I am Catholic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

Catholicism is based on forgery and heresy, probably more so than any of the other jeebus cults.

>>5151335
That's why they always say the only good protestant is a dead one.

>>5151407
how do you be catholic? do you have to sign up? what the actual hell

>>5151329

can the church not change?

are you saying the catholic church has been the same for all time and therefore if it was capable of making the bible at the council of nicea in the 4th century AD, that therefore IT MUST be capable of doing the same 1500+ years later?

Dude, I like your plucky attitude, but truth, edifying spirituality and ancient traditions are nothing compared to all anal gangbangs and teen gooey facials and MILF creampies and burf control pills, at least for most.

Sinning used to actually be dangerous, now it's easy, it sells, and it's cool.

You know the whole thing about eden, right? Innocence can never be regained.

You can't make people believe in god, it's a personal thing between the personality called Christ. Asking that people believe in god for the sake of worldly things is tantamount to voodoo. Asking them to be Catholic for the sake of being Catholic and not salvation(of which there is none outside the church.) is good for neither Catholicism of the people, you are asking people who would otherwise be atheists to call themselves Catholics, yet atheists they would remain if the goods of this world be all they seek.

You also assume that Postmodernism isn't the fulfillment of the prophecy and thus sanctioned by god himself. If anything you should be glad that the world is falling into sin so that your own faith is strengthened and the wheat is driven from the chaff.

Your pope himself is outdoing himself at making concessions to sinful acts.

Some about all this tells me you weren't born and raised a catholic, and are merely a kid excited over a shiny new toy.

>>5151104
>pope Francis is the worst pontiff in decades

>>5151310
>I have no idea what I'm talking about

>>5151104
>based economics, laying the foundation for classical Econ.
>dat Salamanca School

>>5151104
>if there is any absolute truth, these guys probably have the best claim to it
Pretty big if

>>5151104
But orthodoxy is dead. The people are right to rebel against the authority of the priests, most of their shit is made up and all of it is hand-me-down 'knowledge'. It's true that people (as a whole) can not abandon religiosity, but they've never really accepted (blindly) what's handed to them either. Religion proper can only survive by allowing the priesthoods to step down and act as mere counselors and scholars whose opinions may be valued but who exert no control over the individual.

>>5151583
I don't see anything wrong with Francis' glorifying the poor. That's the whole point of the Church's earthly mission.

>>5151471

>how do you be catholic?

You say Yes to God's grace and attend a local church where you speak with a priest about your calling and you enroll in your catechetical classes, which can last anything from 6 months upwards, where you learn about the faith so that you are prepared for the responsibilities of the Catholic life (should you accept what you learn) at your baptism in Easter.

Question for Catholics here: Do you guys really have to obey everything the Pope says? I mean, can doctrine change with every Pope?

>>5151747
The pope sets policy, yes. But Papal Infallibility is like the A-bomb: it's not used often or lightly. Remember how old most Popes are by the time they're elected; unstable types get filtered out, so doctrine changes slowly and moderately.

>>5151770
Ha, that reminds me of something Christopher Hitchens once said: of all the religions in the world, the Catholic Church is the best at weeding out 'enthusiasts.' He meant it sort of sneeringly, but frankly I take it as a compliment. We don't need any of those wackos who think God is telling them to shoot up an abortion clinic.

>>5151776
>Hitchens secretly Catholic
Good argument against Protestantism: teleology leads to Hitler

>>5151715
>Francis is a leftist
>he's a casual on par with Murrican Catholicism
>he likes Pikey's book
>routinely makes ignorant remarks on economics
He's practically Protestant

>>5151815
>Francis is a leftist
kill yourself

>>5151815

>Pikey's book

What's that?

>>5151104

>implying you filthy goys will see the kingdom of heaven

>>5151104
>greatest antidote to a Postmodern "there is no truth" degenerate world is a Church that has claimed to have the infallible truth for 2000 yrs
Truth is not absolute. A good middle is that of Thomas Kuhn: we can be less wrong, but never fully right.
>deep theology, philosophy, metaphysics
False. Catholicism, because it is wrong, will never be as deep as the secular philosophers. See: Goedel, Kant. Goedel's work is better because it is correct.
>beautiful art
Yes.
>edifying spirituality
Faith is what edifies, and if you don't have that, it's not really there.
>ancient traditions that give your life a sense of meaning/purpose, guidelines for raising a good family, etc.
This is a falsehood, and sticking to tradition is only good if you're too disorganized to figure out a solution, not to mention that the "traditional family" is a republican myth. Further, "ancient traditions" just sounds like mysticism. The new ways are often superior. See: democracy, telecommunications
>if there is any absolute truth, these guys probably have the best claim to it
There is no absolute truth, the second claim is baseless. Mathematicians have a better (though still false) claim

>>5151133
All this b8, do you even Aquinas?

>>5151104
*The Islamic reaction.

You Jesus kids are way to apathetic. Join Mohammed before it's too late.

>>5151201
Slavery
Prostitution
What counts as murder
What counts as rape

Fucking everything. Change their minds constantly.

If you don't understand why the moral teachings of an institution that's been around for a thousand+ years, is as complex and has many fucking branches and factions as the Catholics, is as relativist as any, please shoot yourself in the fucking head. Nothing of value will be lost.

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>>5151104
>you will never be able to play with little baby Jesus because you're a filthy sinner

>>5151889
God is Absolute Truth, and we know this by Faith.

>>5151925
Religions evolve along with societies. That sounds ridiculous now but as cultures change, so do what is acceptable at the time period. To many people it seems "Oh it just adapts to stay relevant" but in truth it changes as society changes. Religion is fluid and evolves with men. Go read a book on it.

Also, you seem mad.

OP, you made this because of one of my posts and because I wanted you to. Who's a good little (supposedly god's) robot?

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>>5151104
>>Protestants jelly
uwot

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>>5151946

>>5151950
Haha, the fat guy in a fedora, he's not a threat like God Almighty, by Whose Judgment one finds themselves in either Heaven or Hell.

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>>5151957
You're getting all defensive because it's true.

>>5151962
No, I'm merely satirizing the argumentum ad populum which is the foundation of the Christian faith. How else do you think you, oh set of eyes in eye sockets, came to your existential certainty? Basically, your society's bitch.

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>tfw you got to see a relic of St. John Paul II at St. Patrick's last weekend

It was a vial of his blood extracted while he was alive for medical reasons. Shit was awesome.

>>5151950
"Mother, come quick."

"What is it, honeykins?"

"Look, I posted the hat again."

"Well done, snookums, Mummy is proud."

>>5151975
Y'all haven't drank that shit yet?

I thought Catholics love to drink blood.

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Think about all the noble value-systems of antiquity

>Egyptian
>Persian
>Greek
>Roman

and fucking Christianity is what survives into the present day

fucking disgusting

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>>5151977

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>>5151968
Yeah, screw St. Thomas Aquinas and what anyone has to say. I'm gonna live life my way! Just because it's a deep-rooted tradition in philosophy with unexplainable phenomena is nothing more than hearsay. Besides, everyone who is Christian or Catholic is just that because everyone else is! Who needs faith when I have glorious science! Sure most of the foundations were from the Catholic church, but I have evolved beyond such foolish things. I have become a euphoric being.

I tip my fedora in your direction, fellow sir.

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>>5151939
If the church's morality changes with the times then what's it for?

Nothing. You're just making a neckbeard's argument for them at this point.

>>5151988
The perception of morality changes over time and is based on subjective context. There are some things set in stone and others that are more vague. Go read Mortimer J. Adler. Also your gif is ironic.

>>5151889
So truth is not absolute, but error is?
Your enemies can't call you a liar because there's no absolute truth, but you can call them liars because they're wrong. How very convenient :)

>the "traditional family" is a republican myth.
Are you referring to an american political party based in less developed parts of the colony?
Refer to... history. There was a legal status known as marriage created to contain sexual activity, and sexual activity outside that sphere was brutally punished. But I suppose I'm just being sentimental :)

>>5151979
Only when it still maintains the accidents of wine.

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>>5151889
>not to mention that the "traditional family" is a republican myth.
What

>>5151977
>I'm so angry at this photo prejudging me I'm just going to call him a foolish child
>that surely won't make me look like a fedora wearer anymore

lel

>>5151988
But it does.

Condoms are a sin and you will burn in hell... Oh, It's okay, I spoke to God and he's relaxed a little
Unbaptized Children remain in purgatory ... Oh, it's okay, I spoke to God and he says they go to heaven now
People who divorce will burn in hell ... Oh, it's okay, I spoke to God and it's fine if you repent.
Sodomizes are an abomination and need to be killed ... Oh, it's okay, I spoke to God and he likes a little buggery now.

You forget that according to the Catholic religion the Pope is infallible. The Cardinals in the papal conclave declared and currently maintain in contemporary Catholic dogma that the Pope IS the word of God and IS infallible. So if the Pope wants to change things and modernize, it's really God changing things.

>>5151158
the people who became saints and martyrs simply would become saints and martyrs for something else. people are good or bad without regard for their religious background. religions are mostly decided by geography anyway

>>5152019
>all this bullshit

Stop pretending like you have researched Catholic doctrine because you're just spreading more half-truths and just plain falsehood, like the majority of people who don't understand Catholic faith. There's a reason it's one of the most misunderstood religions on Earth. I also like how you word how the church views the pope in a way that completely skews how things are actually carried out.

tldr: go actually research Catholic faith and not new york times articles

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>Christians literally thinking being a sheep is ideal

>>5152044

Hey feminister did you meet up with an Anon from lit the other day?

>>5152019
And the sacred monkeys in the Vatican... What is even the deal with that? Fucking crazy shit man.

>>5152058
Do I know you?

>>5152079

No, some guy posted on /adv/ talking about how he was meeting up with a girl from lit with a neckbeard boyfriend and was gonna try to fuck her. Thought it might have been about you.

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>>5151104
What does /catholit/ think of Gianni Vattimo, particularly his views on secularization?

>>5152079
I clean your toilet. Lay off on the tacos, by the way.

>>5152042
>Doesn't believe in Papal infallibility

Stop pretending to be a cathlolic on a Chinese cartoon website to troll people. According to the College of Cardinals the Pope is "preserved from the possibility of error". This is current catholic dogma. If you insist on trolling, I suggest actually reading the subject material first.

>>5152083
I did meet up with an anon recently but it wasn't sexual

>>5152084
>>>/x/

>>5152044
Seems like some loaded language we got there, Feminister.

>>5151128
Of course a fag would hate the church.

>>5152095
why don't you check the chamber yourself

>>5152044
It's not that it's ideal- or rather, it's not that one doesn't occasionally wish to be more than a sheep. It's that within the context of the cosmos, a sheep is very much what we are.

The human stands at the crossroads of time and space and existence. He has the willing capacity of an angel, the creative capacity of God, the physical capacity of a beast, and the wrathful capacity of a devil. Pulled by these disparate influences, we find ourselves so distraught, so lacking in right knowledge and good judgment, that we become as sheep in the wild, hunted everywhere by the predators both inside and outside our own spirits, sought after by those beasts which would do us harm.

Again, it's not that we wish to be sheep so much that we are sheep whether we wish to be or not. Wisdom is in recognizing this- and recognizing that, though we be sheep, we have the chance to choose our shepherd, and we ought to choose the right one. The good one.

>>5151996
>So truth is not absolute, but error is?

Yes. Being more wrong can be eliminated. All wrong can't.

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>>5152093
I don't see why /x/ is a more suitable board for discussing Vattimo than /lit/, since he has written numerous books.

>>5152121
All paranormal discussion belongs on /x/

>>5151310
>tfw they didn't teach me Latin at Sunday School

>>5152091

hmm

>>5151987
I'm a moralist, actually, not a materialist, atheist, or whatever. Nice sperg, though, Mr. Eyes in Eye Sockets.
>unexplainable phenomenon
Shit, I was 5 minutes late for one of those one time and I missed it. Dude got resurrected by Santa Claus, everyone swears it was legit

>>5152123
I don't know why you consider Vattimo's work any more paranormal than the rest of this thread, since he is explicitly anti-supernatural.

>>5152115
If A is less wrong than B, B is more truthful than A. I say "learn logic," but then, that would disturb your serene hypocrisy, wouldn't it? Stay cosy, then.

>>5152139
It's a troll or an idiot. The Anon, not Vattimo.

Although I have always looked askance at people who without exception deny the existence of the supernatural, even the ones who are 'nice' about it like Carl Sagan. My response to them is that they have not perhaps looked hard enough to find it.

Or, more honestly, my response to them is to be thankful that it has not come looking for them. Others have not been so lucky.

>>5152148
>Looking for what by definition can't be found.

I-I'll keep looking. Just please don't look le askance at me.

>>5152044
Feminister, do you pray for a painless death? Or hope after one, perhaps, somewhere in the back of your mind?

>>5152044
I don't think God approves of posting your nudes online.

Imagine being a little child and being baptized -- must be the freakiest shit ever, right?

>>5152163
If I wanted a painless death, I'd go get me one.

>>5152148
I'd say there is a difference between denying the existence of the supernatural like Sagan, and denying that the natural world and the supernatural world are distinct, like Spinoza does when he criticizes religion which is based in superstition.

>>5152174
You know -- I figured it out, Feminister. Remember there was that dude who organised the big suicide cult there a while back, and in the name of communism by the ways. You know what he was actually doing? Armoring himself by others. And so Stirner's a lovely little retard to have knocking about the place too, but he doesn't last. Think you'll end up like that ex-wife of his?

Oh to be a pair of eye in eye sockets! Life's crazy, huh?

>>5152183
Dead? Eventually, yeah.

>>5152190
No, no... don't be coy with me, Feminister. I meant where she converted to Christianity after splitting up with him.

>I am free to not live the best way and am a better person for having made my own decisions on what is good, whether they are right or wrong
>you're just sheep, following the best way purely because you were told to!

Or maybe you'll end up like Ayn Rand, a different sort of squirmy.

>>5152193
I'd be more likely to start a cult than covert to some pleb religion like Christianity.

>>5152199
>start a cult
>pleb religion like christianity
lol. I like you, Feminister, you've got spunk

"Yeah, I'm gonna die, no biggie... pfft, death. I am the master of death."

>>5152179
I agree, though I think they both err. If you accept the reality of the supernatural, then by definition it CAN'T be distinct from the natural world. It's as much a part of our world as the birds and the fish and the grasses.

One might even argue that you could study it, provided you could encounter it. But that's the trouble, and that's what makes the supernatural supernatural. The thing that seems to tie every bit of supernatural/paranormal/otherworldly shit together is its SUBJECTIVITY. In that sense, you CAN separate it from the natural world, which is objective. There is constancy to a tree that isn't present in, say, a Marian apparition.

And yet again, every so often the supernatural ceases to be subjective and does become objective. These moments are just rare, and not well studied.

>>5152199
You talk of it like it's a fashion.

>>5152220
On 4chan, it is.

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>>5152229
It can because such but that does not make it a fashion.

Hey guys......what if when you die, you don't actually become nonexistent? Just thought of that there, fucking freaky shit!!

>>5152235

>because such
"become such", rather

>>5152242
I think you've made enough posts for the night now, Wolfshiem.

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>>5152042
Stop pretending like you have researched Catholic doctrine because it's quite obvious you haven't yourself.

>you're just spreading more half-truths and just plain falsehood
Which are?

>the majority of people who don't understand Catholic faith
Because you clearly do.

>There's a reason it's one of the most misunderstood religions on Earth
And of course you won't share with us that reason.

>in a way that completely skews how things are actually carried out
That 'way' being what exactly?

>tldr: go actually research Catholic faith
tldr: go actually research Catholic faith

self-delusional dishonest faker

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>>5151984

>>5152203
You have good taste.

>>5152220
It's semiotics. Do you even Barthes?

>>5152147
Yes if that's all that can be known, then you've eliminated absolute truth but not absolute error.

Known errors (Stuff we know why are not absolute truths, absolute errors) <|> Unknown errors (Stuff we know are not absolute truths, but we don't know why)

Also, I'm just showing you how this works. Not arguing for it. Try to be a little less defensive.

>>5152261

>I posted it again!!

>>5152251
Marx's dismissal of religion is really the perfect example of how little he ultimately knew about the working class.

>>5152242
When you are one click away from the basest of carnality, it's probably not some sort of edgy willpower thing, it's just another criteria used to level the coals of plebdom on the head of atheist who have only recently become annoying. The people on /pol/ who pretend to be religious are fucking with the heads of gullible newfriends and making them one up one another. The people on /lit/ who pretend to be religious are said newfriends. The real Jesus people of the world are out holding hands and reading their Teen Adventure Bibles and tackling challenging questions and having a wonderful conversation with the divine. If you believe in god because it fits your views and lifestyle or because you want to end degeneracy, you don't believe in god, you're just trying to summon him back to earth to serve your will and smite what you don't like, it's a fashion like numerous new age things were back when it was fashionable to rebel against Christianity, now they've become the authority and this absurdity is taking place.
They understand Christianity like a white person understands Buddhism, it is alien to them and through it's language they do not understand they hear exactly what they want because it promises freedom from the holds of the secular "spiritual" boomer mindset.

>>5152306
True dat. That's where Lenin came in.

>>5152087
>Papal infallibility
Wait, so the Pope can essentially do or say anything he wants and he is 'immune to error'?

>>5152306
That quote seems like a very keen and sympathetic understanding of religion. I thought Marx was anti relgion? What the hell?

>>5152306

marx ultimately knew very little, period.

inb4 the janitor bans me and deletes all my posts again

>>5152324
He's calling it insanity in very politic language.

>>5152312
Can we all agree that if anyone needed to be purged, it was the Bolsheviks?

>>5152306
>>5152324
It's not a dismissal of religion, Marx realized religion helped numb the pains of working-class life, so he compared it to the most popular painkiller of his day, opium.

>>5152330
See, I'm the guy in >>5152306 , and I disagree. I think Marx's critique of capitalism is largely correct, and he has predicted many of its movements over the past 150+ years, though some of it has happened on a longer time frame than he anticipated.

But just because he accurately predicted the exploitation and grinding underfoot of the working class doesn't mean he understood them. He was an intellectual, and there is always a distance between such folk and the common people.

As >>5152312 said, Lenin was much more effective at communicating Communism's benefits to the workers.

>>5152340
It sounds like he's calling it the natural method of humanity in dealing with suffering and despair, not at all insanity.

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>>5152341

Things began to go horribly wrong in the French Revolution, but the Bolshevik Revolution was the most harmful in history

>>5152353
>Vladimir 'muh vanguard party' Lenin
>any more connected to the 'common people' than Marx

>>5152358
But insanity is the natural method of humanity in dealing with suffering and despair.

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>>5152353

Daily reminder that Marx, Lenin and Trotsky were all Jews

>>5152353
>Lenin was much more effective at communicating Communism's benefits to the workers.
what he told the vanguard was an entirely different thing..

>>5152364
Robespierre actually killed a lot more people than Lenin did. Napoleon was just waaaaaay less bloodthirsty than Stalin.

Rousseau = Marx
Robespierre = Lenin
Citizen = Comrade
Antonelle = Trotsky
Jacobin = Bolshevik
Conspiracy of Equals = Chernoe Znamia
Reign of Terror = Red Terror
Bonaparte = Stalin
Fouché = Beria

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>>5152374

It's the same story

>>5152374
All of a sudden, I have a powerful need for someone to examine a potential alternate history where Napoleon wasn't defeated and France kept its empire. Let's say the inflection point is his invasion of Russia- or, failing that, let's say he wins at Waterloo. What happens?

>>5152374
How the shit is Napolean comparable to Stalin?

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>>5151104

Traditional Roman Catholic here

Can confirm. We're the best.

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Napoleon was antiquity incarnate. His would have been the most prosperous empire in history.

And he's the only person in history who got the Jewish Question right

>>5152316
>Wait, so the Pope can essentially do or say anything he wants and he is 'immune to error'?

Sort of. Imagine these scenarios:

A. The pope says, for example, that Vatican scholars have found an old text and eating beef goes against the word of God. The college of cardinals will publicly support his claim as the pope is infallible, the college of archbishops support the Cardinals decision, then the Bishops, deacons, priests and lower levels fall in line, and the laity have to conform the new doctrine. "Man cannot eat beef" becomes the unquestionable word of God.

B. The pope now says, that Leviticus 20:10 or Deuteronomy 17:12 must be carried out (some of the parts of the bible that say certain people must be executed), and calls for public executions of adulterers, atheists, homosexuals, fortunetellers etc... Then the Sacred College of cardinals will ask the Pope to abdicate as successor to Saint Peter (behind closed doors, of course) and if he refuses they will hold an immediate acclamation to appoint a new Pope. The pope is infallible, but that will become secondary to the repercussion of public outcry. Small breakaway sects may appear, though, and a spate of murders might follow as a few nuts attempt to carry out Gods will.

C. On the odd chance that the Cardinals do support the Popes decision for something socially taboo or against contemporary moral trends, like the execution of infidels, then even though Catholics believe that the pope is infallible, he is still subject to law and can be arrested and imprisoned along with any other clergy or laity members who break the law. But the Catholic church is a well refined financial enterprise, and it's highly unlikely that scenario would occur.

>>5152383
Ask Orwell.

>>5152383
He was an efficient genius and executed people who spoke out against him (much less than Stalin did, granted), he reinstituted slavery, he turned a egalitarian revolution into a world-power empire ruled by a cult of personality, he used secrete police extensively (see Fouché), and employed the ideology of equality rather cynically, not personally believing in it.

If Stalin only killed the occasional dissenter, instead of millions, you'd easily see the resemblance.

>>5152382
A Cold War between Britain and France using third-world proxies when needed?

>>5152380

It's almost as if you could say that history repeats itself, first as tragedy...

>>5152306
Marx wasn't wrong on religion, nationalism, etc. The problem is that marxists, especially in the cultural realm, are too eager to abolish these spectres. We have to ask ourselves if they are bad to begin with; the Bolsheviks tried to tie the mobilizing effect of nationalism and socialism, for instance.

There's a difference between being "ultimately right" and just "right". The same difference there's between "life has no inherent meaning and normally going on with your life" and "life has no inherent meaning therefore everything is futile and I should kill myself right now". Awareness vs. action.

>>5152418
>There's a difference between being "ultimately right" and just "right". The same difference there's between "life has no inherent meaning and normally going on with your life" and "life has no inherent meaning therefore everything is futile and I should kill myself right now".

One cannot be "right", only have a probability value with in a given framework. Your 'meaning' can only be assessed within certain linguistic structures as a semantic construct overlaying a perceived event. The way you're discuss meaning is similar to an essence or form, and not as a man made semantic device to describe abstractions inside particular frameworks.

>>5152399
How come the pope can't be all badass again like he was in the renaissance? We need some divine mediation between nations. Like the UN but with God on its side.

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>>5152447
Because the political structure the catholic church rested on is gone

>>5152464
Can you explain? Is there no hope now for the masses since we've abandoned monarchy and the papacy? Is this part of God's plan? Are the protestants right about the coming apocalypse? Are pentecostals insane or demonically possessed? Will I still go to hell even if I secretly believe it's impossible to go to hell? Does studying philosophy inherently lead to heresy?

>>5152485
God is not dead, he's just learned to relax and be highly flexible, and now goes by Capitalism.

>>5152485
Hah, wait, this guy actually believes! Send him off to a monastery, he won't make a good king.

>>5152447

How many divisions has the pope?

>>5152447
Francis has tried to revive the Vatican's role as a diplomatic force, though thus far he's stuck to mostly symbolic gestures.

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>“It is an unchristian religion, in the first place!' the prince resumed in great agitation and with excessive sharpness. 'That's in the first place, and secondly, Roman Catholicism is even worse than atheism - that's my opinion. Yes, that's my opinion! Atheism merely preaches a negation, but Catholicism goes further: it preaches a distorted Christ, a Christ calumniated and defamed by it, the opposite of Christ! It preaches Antichrist - I swear it does, I assure you it does! This is my personal opinion, an opinion I've held for a long time, and it has worried me a lot myself. ... Roman Catholicism believes that the Church cannot exist on earth without universal temporal power, and cries: Non possumus! In my opinion, Roman Catholicism isn't even a religion, but most decidedly a continuation of the Holy Roman Empire, and everything in it is subordinated to that idea, beginning with faith. The Pope seized the earth, an earthly throne and took up the sword; and since then everything has gone on in the same way, except that they've added lies, fraud, deceit, fanaticism, superstition wickedness. They have trifled with the most sacred, truthful, innocent, ardent feelings of the people, have bartered it all for money, for base temporal power. And isn't this the teaching of Antichrist? Isn't it clear that atheism had to come from them? And it did come from them, from Roman Catholicism itself! Atheism originated first of all with them: how could they believe in themselves? It gained ground because of abhorrence of them; it is the child of their lies and their spiritual impotence! Atheism! In our country it is only the upper classes who do not believe, as Mr Radomsky so splendidly put it the other day, for they have lost their roots. But in Europe vast numbers of the common people are beginning to lose their faith - at first from darkness and lies, and now from fanaticism, hatred of the Church and Christianity!”

>>5151128
I feel you, only straightfags get their sexuality validated by ancient books

>>5152514
And yet it was in no small part due to a pope that the Soviet Union fell.

>>5151984
fugging negbeard X---DDD

>>5151133

I think the catholics have a large number of great thinkers/theology but they're restricted to the monasteries and (less frequently) in the clergy.

As for the edifying spirituality, I have to agree with you. The structure of the typical catholic service doesn't lend itself to deep spirituality. The homily is usually so short that it doesn't have any insights, and the Eucharist, while often a good chance for meditation, is easy to just go through it as a routine.

Additionally, the conduct of certain members of the church (pedophilia, [lack of]condoms in africa, extravagant spending on frivolities) makes it harder to believe in the edifying effects of catholic teachings. If gold rusts, then what shall iron do?

Also, more than any other branch of christianity they seem to have a
>muh sekret club
attitude. Not baptized catholic? No blood of christ for you!

Not that protestants are any better. The interpretation of the bible often ignores analysis from catholic or othodox preachers in the past. My childhood church used hell quite a few times.

Honestly, the churches I have attended served more as methods of enforcing cultural norms within the congregation. Everybody knows everybody else and those that don't tow the line are kicked out.

>>5152589
When are all the world religious leaders going to meet up and create the NWO super-religion? I want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, man. A truly catholic (i.e., universal) church?

>>5152527
Is this Dostoevsky? Top lel.

>>5152609

sure is, might add that catholics even though he's right and catholics are foul, they really do serve the rest of Christendom well.

>tfw the more I read Catholic theology the more I want to convert
>tfw I took a break because I started going to church and considered confession
Medieval writers in particular have a way of putting these things in such obvious terms, it's amazing.

>>5152617
Catholics are best -holics. Catholicism is best -ism. JOIN US JOIN US THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS RIGHT

>>5152703
Well, I am technically "in", since I was baptized and confirmed, I just had the usual anti-Chrisitan phase as a teen.
Now though, I'm going to a jesuit school because I feel a intense need to study catholicism in a more "authentic" environment. We'll see how it goes.

>>5151932
faith does not imply knowledge, in fact, knowledge precludes faith

Sure OP, join the Church. If you like herd mentality, hypocrisy, dumb morality and being a member of an organization that used to burn people at stakes and hamper the scientific progress for some 1000 years, that is.

>>5152827
>hamper the scientific progress for some 1000 years, that is
I see herd mentality right in you though.

>>5152827
Or you can try one of the more barbaric religions like hiduism, surely they are better.

>>5152900
hinduism is a catchall term coined by the british empire to easily categorise the various folk traditions in the indian subcontinent. shows how much you know about religion

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>Papists

No thanks.

>>5152906
>chaining yourself to a tree and suffering immense pain so you can be reborn of the higher castes

>>5152394
Remind me of his answer to it?

>>5152913
>Protestants
lel
Orthodox may have some legit criticism if they weren't a dying denomination.

>mfw vatican1 fags butthurt over vatican2
>but muh infallible pope
lol

>>5152491
Surely the relationship between Christianity and capitalism is more complex than that.

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God here. All the non-catholics ITT are going straight 2 hell.

>>5153044
No, we currently have capitalism because it is Gods will.

>>5153092
Nice try, Horus. I know it's you.

>Catholics
>their 'proofs' for a god are semantics and word games
>their proudest moral achievement is running a worldwide pedo scheme

Yeah, great alternative

>catholics
>praying to mary
>praying to saints who never existed

>>5153146
>not praying to the human vehicle of God
>not praying to the one confirmed by an angel to be "full of grace"

>>5153148
>using Latin Vulgate over the Greek New Testament
>Exchanging the truth about God for a lie, and worshipping the created instead of the Creator

>>5152388
laudatur Iesus Christus!

>>5152913
>being a Protestant
>cherry-pick the bible
>follow the idolater and ideologue Luther
>remove books from the Bible through adopting newer Jewish scriptures from rabbinic tradition not from the LXX
>not following Christ instead of the heretical Germans

Confess, and repent!

>>5151476

>can the church not change?

Yes and it has quite a lot. The Church of St. Peter was not the Church of St. Jerome, the Church of St. Jerome was not the Church of St. Francis, etc.

But it cannot change in such a way as to not be the one Church.

>are you saying the catholic church has been the same for all time

The same in its apostolicity and sacramentality, yes.

>therefore if it was capable of making the bible at the council of nicea in the 4th century AD, that therefore IT MUST be capable of doing the same 1500+ years later?

Yes.

Would God found an institutional Church he only intended to last three hundred years?

The Church has done terrible things at times, it's been very corrupt. St. Peter himself did at least one terrible thing. And the High Priests of the temple at Jerusalem did terrible things. God works through men.

>>5153101
You dare to doubt your lord and creator? Pineapples. Pineapples 4 you.

>>5151104
What do you mean its happening?

I'm someone who has accepted postmodernity, but for over a decade I've been aware that if I crave for absolute truths, Catholicism (and Islam) offer the best options to turn on.

>>5152306
I don't think Marx dismissed religion as much as he dismissed Hegelian Protestantism.

>>5152374
> Than Lenin did
Russian civil war killed nine million people, Roberspierre's terror 500k at max.

>>5152405
> Thinking revolutions were corrupted by individual characters instead of these characters becoming prominent because of the revolution's corruption before them

>>5153249
>thinking the Russian Constituent Assembly dissolved itself

>>5153274
It was repressed by Bolshevik party. What's your point? Are you trying to say that the revolution was all fine and cool and egalitarian until Stalin came in power?

>>5153281
No, I'm saying Lenin fucked it up.

>>5152527
well I can agree

>>5153228
I don't think judging absolute numbers across time periods is really fair. When there were less people alive/less urbanization, it was harder to get a high score.

>>5151329
The Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Bible. God gave us the Bible and it was the believers (aka the true church of God) who were continuously accepting books into the New Testament canon. A canon was already being formed right when the New Testament books were penned, as seen by how some New Testament books/authors affirm other New Testament books as Scripture. The earliest lists we have of the final list of the New Testament canon came from 397 AD when the Council of Carthage (the western churches at the time) agreed with the same list put out by the eastern churches. Nicaea was to argue for the deity of Christ, not the canon (not sure why everyone thinks this).

I haven't studied when all the Roman Catholic teachings were penned yet, but they couldn't have been formed until centuries later. During Christ's life and after his death God's people had no organization since they were always hiding due to persecution in Rome until about 300 AD when Emperor Constantine made other religions legal (the church was being killed for her faith) in hopes of unifying Rome. There's no talk of Papacy and Indulgences or praying to Mary or praying to saints to pray for you in the New Testament books. And I'm not aware of any mentions of such things among the extra-biblical writings during the very early centuries AD either.

>>5151476
The church of God has always existed since the implementation of the New Covenant with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The Church is dying. Vatican II created the Novus Ordo which has destroyed the mass and corrupted the church beyond repair. You walk into a catholic church and people are banging on the piano and singing horrible gospel music. It's not sacred anymore. The jesuits have become infested with postmodern hippies and have made the church a laughing stock. In my city they had a church dance-off where the fucking archbishop got up on stage in layman's clothing and danced. The priests are unfaithful to church doctrine. Pope Francis spews heretical (and sometimes just plain absurd) bullshit every time he opens his gaucho mouth. German bastards like Hans Kung openly proclaim anti-catholic statements. Some German cardinal almost got abortion ok'd. SSPX seems to be the church's only hope, except extreme radical sedevacantists like Bishop Williamson make traditionalists look like crazy, fascist nutjobs. On top of everything, most people who call themselves catholics don't give a single shit and just come to church as a social event. Most catholics you talk to wouldn't be able to be able to tell you a damn thing about the bible or Sola Fide. All they do is recite vernacular hymns like dumb cows.

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>>5153376
Sounds like Vatican I is protesting.

>>5151975
JP II was a heretic shit.

>>5153376
What else is new? You realize you sound exactly like Martin Luther, right?

And I don't see anything particularly wrong with any of the statements you've made, minus your judgment of them. The Church has always had a streak of leftism in it given its concern for the poor and downtrodden.

>>5153376
So singing things in solemn latin and wearing fancy robes is what makes Catholicism sacred?

>>5153440
>solemn Latin
You mean singing the beautiful liturgy in its original language, the language that has been carried down for almost 2000 years ago? They're less solemn than the droning cacophony of the vernacular.

>>5153454
I also think it's beautiful and I love Catholic art, but let's be real, aesthetics have nothing to do with how authentic your religion is.

>>5151104

>2014
>Catholic
>relevant

kek

The only reason your numbers are rising is because you keep "converting" savages.

I've got a legitimate question. I'm kind of mulling around religiously right now, but I've got faith in God. The Catholic Church appeals to me the most, tbh, but, I'm too old for confirmation, I think.

Can I get confirmed as an adult/join the church as one?

>>5154118
Absolutely. It takes about six months to join the Church, because you have to go through classes that teach you about Catholicism.

The plus side is that when you're done you'll know more about the Church than a lot of cradle Catholics. You'll not only be faithful, but knowledgeable.

Go talk to the priest or deacon at your local church.

>>5151889
>truth is not absolute
>implying that relativism is logically sound
>implying that what is so is contingent on what you believe to be so

>>5154152
Alright, that's cool. Do I get to choose a confirmation name like my friends did years ago? I had a lot of Catholic friends growing up.

Follow-up, what will I learn at these classes?

Anyone have any good sites to learn about Catholicism? Only thing that sways me away is the papal infallibility, but maybe because I don't know much about it. And I also interpreted Christ mentioning rock (Matthew 16:18) in the feminine form, meaning the church was built on his faith but not Peter himself.

>>5154175
>Only thing that sways me away is the papal infallibility
>only

>>5154168
Eventually, yes, you'll pick a saint name.

You'll go through the catechism, and they will probably touch on some theology, too. They'll tell you about the Sacraments and maybe the Church hierarchy.

>>5154175
You should probably start with the Catechism, it will clear many misconceptions about what Catholics actually believe, and it deals with a lot of theology. You should also look into the Church giants like Augustine and Aquinas, the latter being the bedrock of all subsequent Catholic teaching, he's a damn genius and well worth studying.

>>5154179
That sounds cool. Another question (sorry if I'm being retarded) but is military service compatible with Catholicism? There are some bits of Protestantism that look down on it and I don't know how I should look on it. I intend to join the Army in a combat role.

>>5154184
>You should probably start with the Catechism
Will it address the rock and papal infallibility topics I mentioned? And I have read some of Aquinas and I really was impressed.

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>this thread
My dick in OP's mom, that's what's happening.

>people going catholic because they like the way it looks and sounds.
Worse than white Buddhists.

>>5154204
I think people here do it more because of their rich teaching and sound theology.

>>5154118
I Joined up this year. The biggest reason was truth. The moral relativism of the 70's wrecked this country and I think only the objective truth of the church will be able to bring it back. As long as the boomers continue to die off. They wrecked the world and we will be better off when they are gone.

>Believing in non-detectable sky fascists

I tip my own fedora and wear it with pride.

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>>5154222

I became Catholic because I was thoroughly impressed with their scholarly work.

There is literally no other religion that has this amount of critical work across the centuries.

Everything they do and say is backed up by centuries of intellectualism.

Other religions don't have that, not to that level, not until today.

Islam has great theologians from centuries ago but nothing but Creationism today.

Buddhists have the Dalai Lama but nothing comparable to what the Catholic Church.

Forget the rest, they're not even trying.

>>5151984
The Persian and Greek tradition survives as Shi'ism

>>5153456
Completely wrong, beauty is truth.

What edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church would you all recommend to an americuckold such as myself?

>>5154175
You are correct in the Petros v petra. Peter had just uttered under divine inspiration "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

The catholics INTENTIONALLY misunderstand that to mean that Peter was the first pope, and had the keys to heaven, They go further and claim that Peter's successors inherited those keys.

It's ludicrous.

This is what the bible says about the foundation of the church:

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2
Christ Our Cornerstone
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

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>>5154350
topkek

>>5154345
>Islam has great theologians from centuries ago but nothing but Creationism today.
u no leik Muhammad Iqbal?

>>5154369
Peter was the first pope because he was the first Bishop of Rome, and in time this position came to hold supremacy over the other leadership positions of the Church. And of course he is the leader of the Apostles, all of whom have the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, and which authority is passed down to them by the priesthood, the successors of the Apostles.

>>5154398
He was never the bishop of Rome; he was killed in Rome.

Huge difference.

He was the first disciple, not the leader of all of the disciples. He used the keys to open heaven to Jews and Gentiles; they were no longer of any use to anybody. Heaven is open.

And there is no valid "apostolic succession" in the bible, at all.

Christianity is not confined to one thoroughly pagan church in Rome.

I strongly suggest you read "A Woman Rides The Beast".

>>5154418
If there is no central authority, what would stop any dissident group separating itself and changing their views because it suits them? Protestants are constantly bickering and they have a huge difference in beliefs to the point that you can hardly call some Christian anymore.
If it wasn't for the Church Christianity wouldn't even have survived this long. All of Christendom looks to the Church, even if they disagree with them, they look to it as a standard. After all, they're Protestants - they protest based on a perceived model. It's very hard to take these groups seriously.

>>5153477
> Protestant
> Using term "savage" unironically in 2014
seems about right!

>>5154373
JAHOOKIE!

>>5154432
God.

God is the central authority.

>>5154418
Oh Christ, you're one of those types. Look, the original Church was just the Church with its bishops and priests, then it split into the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches some time around the 900s, and then every OTHER Church is a split from that.

The structure of the Catholic Church is nearly as old as formal Christianity itself, and the idea of apostolic succession is likewise as old. It's so old that it PREDATES the Bible. That is why Catholicism places equal weight on Scripture and Tradition- many of the Traditions of Catholicism are as old or older than Scripture. They were around first.

>>5154441
So God is fine with people interpreting Christianity however they want and creating thousands of denominations that nobody can find sense in?

>>5154447
Key word there is "nearly", mate, and it's off by 300 years.

I'm what's called in common parlance a "christian", whereas you in stark contrast are a "catholic".

>>5154447
I won't argue about that last bit; the catholic church does date all the way back to the Tower of Babel under Nimrod and Semiramis, the so-called "Queen of Heaven", in Babylon.

That title sound familiar to you? The system? The Babylon system? Does that sound familiar to you?

>>5154457
Is God, the Judge of the Universe, fine with allowing anybody to do anything they want to do?

Is that a serious question? If it is, I would answer in the negative.

>>5154466
The point is that Christianity is meaningless without a Church. The Bible alone is obviously not enough to gather Christians in one place and keep them from error. Denying the Platonic and Aristotelian elements is damaging, as well. Your illusion of "authentic" Christianity that is apart from any sort of institution has no basis.

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hmm, how about the fact that the very concept of an eternal hell for people that weren't saved in this lifetime is one of the cruelest and most disgusting concepts ever thought up?

>>5154492
>truth is all about feeeeeeelings man

lol

>>5154496
Spoken like a true contrarian

>all humans are descended from filthy primitive animals
>I don't like it so science sucks

>>5154500
>pretty much the whole science of evolution was developed by Catholics
>"the Catholic Church hates science!"

kek

>>5154498
>he says as he abandons Tradition to dance to the tune of the time

kekkest of keks

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>>5151104
>tfw converted to mother church from evangelical protestant cult bullshit while in college

feelsgoodman

>>5154477
Oh, is it? Having the Holy Spirit of God literally living inside of you is "meaningless" unless there is a decorated building?

Are you sure about that?

The bible doesn't tell you enough about how to be saved? How to live? What will be?

Your illusion that your membership in an earthly political organization will gain you entry into heaven is vain.

>>5151104
>has claimed to have the infallible truth for 2000 yrs
I thought they reformed all the time?

>>5154506
>I don't subscribe to any dogma
>I think for myself
>"lol kekkest of keks loollll"

Wow dude, you seem very loving and humble, just like Jesus!

>>5154512
Their history is one embarrassment after the other, especially considering that they believe their Dear Leader to be at times infallible.

It is also a blood soaked history that stood behind Mussolini and Hitler while they killed "christkillers and bolsheviks".

>>5154518
>Progressivist sheep in the contemporary West actually believe that they are "thinking for themselves."

lol yeah, somehow your 'independent thinking' led you to the exact same conclusions being broadcast by academia and the mainstream media. funny how that works out.

>>5154462
>>5154464
You're starting to sound like a Chick Tract. Is that really the sort of intellectual company you want to be keeping?

>>5154496
>Implying faith isn't the most emotional quality you can have

>>5154525
>A guy isn't Catholic
>That automatically makes him a brainwashed pseudo-intellectual progressive sheep

How far up your own ass are you, man?

>>5154184
how would i start with aquinas? i've been interested in his work for a while, but don't know how to approach it.

>>5154526
wtf are you on about?

>>5154543
The One Minute Aquinas. I think it was .99 on kindle.

>>5154496
>faith is a totally emotion-based trait
>laughs at someone for having feelings

This whole tread reads like trolling by atheists. Are there any real christians in here because you're really conforming to Poe's Law. I sometimes feel moved to point out some of the biases and highly selective reasoning from any side in religious discussions but this has been a mostly laughable thread.

>>5154585
You discount the possibility of a true christian being here by invoking Poe's Law, and then blame the christians for not being here.

That is your "logic" and "reason".

>>5151583
>>5151815
>implying it isn't all just a ruse
>implying he isn't pretending to be liberal to improve the face of the Catholic church while saying in essence the same thing his predecessors did

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEchg1KhmTY

I don't like his tactics honestly, it borders on dishonesty, but read more carefully what he says.

>>5155007
There's nothing dishonest about his "tactics," he said a few things that sounded Marxist so the MSM decided on its own to burnish his image by selectively representing him and his words in order to give legitimacy to the Marxist stuff. They could just as easily turn on him. He has no control over what the Jews running Fox, CNN, and NBC report about him.

>>5152447
>tfw no crusades backed by the Pope anymore
I just want to pillage and rape sandpeople in the name of God.

>>5152827
>muh science
>muh "b-b-but we shouldn't burn heretics!"
They'll burn in Hell anyways.

>>5153376
This
When I was a kid I loved going to my local church which was exactly what you described because I was a pleb
Then I hated going because I was an edgy teen
Now I don't even want to go because if I'm going to go back to Catholocism (currently Agnostic theist) I want the real deal; a quiet somber Latin mass.

>>5152374
Holy shit you were right about something, ever.

>>5154188
The Vatican has a standing army

>>5153436
Clearly, further proof that Luther was right.

>>5155344
If he's so right then why is he burning in hell?

>>5152374
tfw no dalton

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Decent thread and it's odd to see as it was started with quite outrageous claim (at least on this board).

What's funny most of the Catholic doctrine depends on Aristotelian logics while I believe that it's Plato of them two for whom Catholicism would be right up the alley.

to all dismissing moral objectivism.. I am quite startled. is this supposed to be official interpretation of philosophy in modern day western academia? it's like you people don't even metaethics and fall for silly nihilism, in my part of the world philosophy in universities teach anything but moral relativism

QUICK

DOUAY-RHEIMS OR KING JAMES VERSION?

>>5155674
>not Septuaginta
>not Vulgate

heretic detected

>>5155674
Douay-rheims is prob the best English translation. It is the literal translation of the vulgate.

But for reals, get your hands on some latin primers (I used one targeted towards 8th graders) and learn you some latin and read the vulgate like a pro.

>>5155324
You have to be Swiss.

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>>5156690
>Learning Latin

>>5151104
And yet it took protestantism to learn the commoners to read.

>>5156884
what a great thing that was, distributing the single most important weapon of the powerful to the meek so that they might exercise it upon themselves

>>5156884
>it's like you people don't even metaethics and fall for silly nihilism

Moral relativism is what ends up coming up every time I see politically incorrect views in one of my classes in uni. It's odd and I'm never really sure what to say about it.

>>5156884
And while that is nice, the commoners fucked up and are fucking up Christianity royally. The reformation has been a horrid mess for Europe.

>>5156697
It's still maintained by and for the church, thereby supporting catholics who are members of the armed forces

>>5151993
Absolute truths should be absolute. If the perception of morality changes, that's fine, but the morality reflected by the church, which is allegedly based on the absolute truth of god, should be incapable of change, as any change in moral standing of the church is admittance that they were previously wrong (which would be impossible if they were in fact speaking the absolute truth).

>>5154543
Summa Contra Gentiles. Or a general overview of his work if that's what you want. He's not hard to read, though some background in Aristotle is welcome.

>>5157371
Doctrine evolves.

>>5157413
But if the doctrine is dictated by an omniscient being then why would it need to ever be revised?

>>5154585
I am a Catholic.

>>5152372
...W-wut is even happening in this picture

>>5151250
So edgy.

>>5154345

>Other religions don't have that, not to that level, not until today.

To be fair Judaism is actually a lot more bookish and intellectual than even Catholicism. They don't even really have holy men. Their rabbis are simply scholars.

>>5158769
Yeah but good luck converting to Judaism.