I Am A Transwoman. I Am In The Closet. I Am Not Coming Out.

Not OP, but I'm the one who posted this in /repgen/ yesterday.

I can relate to almost everything in the essay, but most of all "I don’t correct her. I never correct anyone." Every time someone brings up my supposed* gender when it's not relevant is another twist of the knife. Seeing a trans woman do it, someone who should know better, hurts even more.

And even though I mostly just keep quiet about anything that might provoke that response because I'm terrified of these interactions, whenever I see it done to someone else - even if that person is statistically almost certainly a cis guy - I think "that could have been me. That was my opinion too. I could have posted that and she would have said the same thing to me".

*and presumed, at that. My profile doesn't have any gender information on it, and I doubt they're doing a deep dive through my history to figure out if I've ever mentioned it. But of course "did you just assume my gender" is just a meme toxic cis people use to make fun of us. No-one could ever possibly have a legitimate reason to want a norm of not calling people dudes without their express permission.

>>8743435
Fucking heartwrenching

This is exactly how I feel. I don't underdstand how the woman in the second link can dismiss these feelings so angrily.

Zinnia seems like such a cunt. I don't know how anybody can think like here and not realize how repulsive and bigoted their mindset is.

>>8743435
She's not a trans woman if she doesn't transition.

>>8744397
holy shit i didn't even click the second link. what a fucking bitch

>>8744397
She's an extreme radical who goes as far ad supporting islam and pretends they dont kill gays

>>8744413
autism, please go

I want a meteor to strike me right now after reading that

>>8743435
I have an impossible amount of anger, sadness, and some other emotion that I can't name but feels like justice and death at the same time.

This is the real trans manifesto.

>>8744417
>>8744430
I'm sure she feels like she does great things for the lgbt community, but she obviously does not care. She's the type to dismiss people's experiences if those experiences didn't lead to the same conclusions that hers did. It's absolutely deplorable that anybody could be so closed minded. I hope that one day she gets a good reality check that will absolutely demolish her way of thinking.

I like a lot of Zinnia's work but yeah she's a real jerk at times. Not unexpected given how she started out in youtube atheism and was a channer herself.

I am 100% behind Zinnia on this one, and I hate this fucking Anita Sarkeesian impersonator.

>>8744673
How so?

>>8743435
I can relate to this, i'm a 30 something repressor although much more blatantly AGP.

She tries to stick up for men in general cuz shes stuck in the manbox. Then feminists and Zinnia shit on her for it.

Thats why i'm a Trump supporter, its the ultimate fuck you to SJW cunts.

>>8744683
>Thats why i'm a Trump supporter, its the ultimate fuck you to SJW cunts.
You're blowing your fucking head off out of spite

>>8744685
>You're blowing your fucking head
to a repressing agp that's not that bad of an outcome tbqh

>>8743435
Sorry but I agree with the second link to a point. You don't choose to be trans, but you do choose to not transition. Especially in these current times. It comes off as a lot of pity-partying that is super common here so I won't be that shocked if most of the T here eats it up.

I know all of that sounds cruel, but there's only so much you can give to people who willingly harm themselves like that. Transition, even failed ones, still bring relief and this is common knowledge. It's also common knowledge that transition after years changes the way you think, feel, perceive, an generally how you experience life.

That being said every woman referenced is an awful, shallow bitch.

>>8744683
This, desu. It's a special circle of hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfuWXRZe9yA

>>8744702
That doesn't matter when you've already been completely demoralized.

>>8744700
I'm that poster and a repressing "AGP".

>>8744712
At some point you have to wake up and realize that you have to be strong.

>>8744685
Oh but i'm a bit of a /pol/tard so I enjoy the man anyways.

>>8744700
Yeah, I've had moments where i'm happy at the idea of dying. Weed made me less suicidal though.

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>>8743435

>>8744702
Repressor here. There are costs and benefits to transitioning. If your dysphoria is primarily physical and you won't ever have the sort of body that you can accept transitioning might just not be worth it. You're exposing yourself to a lifetime of bigotry to make your body a body you despise ever so slightly less.

>>8744747
I agree. At least I can look normal if I don't transition.

>>8744754
I'm actually being a massive hypocrite here since I've noticed that a lot of non-passers are still somehow happy with themselves so I tell people who can't pass to transition because I think it might work out for them.. but yeah, I don't feel it could for me.

>>8744747
Hurting yourself for fear of a lifetime of bigotry? Anon I would have thought the first link would have taught you that bigotry awaits you anyway, just from a different crowd. I won't ever have the body I feel is acceptable but I've come to terms and learned to love myself as best I can. It hurts less than it did, but it took a very long time to get here. We often have nothing but our tears anon, but that is why we must be strong. Stronger than most people will ever have to know.

https://twitter.com/ZJemptv/status/752426227844218880

A LITTLE LIKE RILEY DENNIS, EY ZINNIA?

>>8744757
The problem is that the trans community is mostly delusional and says a person passes when clearly they do not. Please be more honest.

https://twitter.com/ZJemptv/status/752430430608031744
>hurr you don't have to disclose, jut disclose dummy!
Being trans IS a most private experience for a lot of people, you stupid cunt.

What the actual fuck is Zinnia's problem? In what way is someone simply describing their personal troubles 'being an asshole'? Why is she so hell bent on running this total stranger's life by countering every personal limit with "WELL JUST DO THIS YOU IDIOT LOL"

>>8744782
I kind of just figure that she sees all of this and is frustrated by watching someone cry woe to the sky and refuse to help themselves. It's not cool, but it's the best sense I can make of it. It's a harmful direction to take (repressing) that should not be encouraged, people like this need to be helped and healed. They owe it to their future selves to live an authentic life, as it's the only life worth living.

I dunno anon. It's just so fucking heartbreaking to see some give up without even doing the things that can ease the pain you understand so well that it can become frustrating.

Or maybe she really is just kind of a bitch, I don't know I don't pay attention to people. I just want to help.

>>8744759
I don't intend to make you question your choices. I'm sure they were right for you. The thing is if you pass as a normal person you're at least not hounded by people who actively want to hurt you, every day, without end. If transitioning really does make you feel better then that's a worthwhile sacrifice. What of those whom it doesn't help, though? Then you just made your situation worse.

>>8744782
I'm a fan of her work but she has a short temper and a tendency to adopt extreme positions in arguments in response to pressure.

>>8744793
>I kind of just figure that she sees all of this and is frustrated by watching someone cry woe to the sky and refuse to help themselves. It's not cool, but it's the best sense I can make of it.
Honestly imo that's a delusionally charitable interpretation.

>people like this need to be helped and healed.
Do you think she feels helped or healed after reading what this public figure, perhaps someone she admired, wrote about her?

this is exactly the sort of place you could find people agreeing with the original poster desu.

Generally people here never go outside and don't experience reality while they think this entitles them to an opinion on problems trans people who are actually out face

Zinnia is completely right on this and this is why everyone hates you miserable repressed AGPs

>>8744936
Sertii I usually really like and respect you but I think that, even if you don't agree with all of the points made by the person in the first link, you can still show compassion to her.

>>8744964
>Fuck you got mine: TvT Edition

tfw you thought crying because not a girl at a young age was normal
tfw realising how much i obsessed and how much i missed out on
tfw mildly feminine and transitioning now before 20s
god, that almost made me cry

>>8744936
>>8744964
what the hell is wrong with you?

>>8744520
IKR? This is reality.

>>8745032
how can you genuinely have compassion with someone who believes misandry is a real thing though?

>>8745081
>hating a fellow trans girl in a terrible situation for the sin of not being a feminist

>>8745032
like idk, if you know you're trans but don't want to transition but then go on and complain about all the terrible things you feel because you aren't transitioning and then literally mention things such a "misandry" and "not all men" like idk dude just sounds like you're throwing a pity party

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>>8745081
Look what women did to this guy.

>>8745088
You make it sound like it's purely her fault for staying in the closet. It's society's fault. She's a victim of her era

>>8745088
>and then literally mention things such a "misandry" and "not all men"
Now you know how she feels when you say misogyny or not all women.

>>8745081
I don't agree with her exact thoughts but I think that what she describes is real in the sense that the system of gender, while overwhelmingly tipped against women, also harms men to some extent and that some feminists are unthinkingly buying into those aspects of the system and perpetuating them. Feminism as a whole is a good thing and not all feminists do this.

>>8745088
Well, doesn't she deserve pity? I agree that responding with Not All Men is often a way to silence discourse about what men as a class tend to do but at the same time I think going the extra mile to say that you speak of the overwhelming majority that buys into toxic masculinity isn't difficult but is beneficial.

I think it's important to consider why she isn't transitioning.

>>8745143
>and not all feminists do this.
Not All Feminists is often a way to silence discourse about what feminists as a group tend to do.

>>8745149
Do you realize that I just argued against overgeneralizing? You're not helping and your vendetta is clear.

>>8745149
Do even a majority of feminists do this? Why don't we bring these arguments out of the realm of nebulous bullshit and start looking at statistics.

>>8745116
>I'm too scared to transition socially or medically because of society's view on women and how I as a trans woman bears a good portion of this
>lol misandry

>>8745117
:^)

>>8745143
there is no feminist that doesn't agree that patriarchy also harms men in many ways. Like literally this is one of the core ideas of feminism. This is not the same as the oppression trans women face tho. This person claimed to follow a gender studies course then proceeded to spew the most ignorant and stupid babble and then framed the whole clasa roling their eyes at her as transmisogyny

like listen it's cool to be afraid to transition or whatever but after that, being an asshole is your own choice lmao and using the fact that you're a transwoman to just not care about any of the criticisms you face at all is just... idk dude this person is selling you some grade A bullshit and y'all are buying it because the first few paragraphs are relatable or whatever lmao

>>8745161
Where does it say that?

>>8745161
>There is no feminist that doesn't agree that patriarchy also harms men in many ways. Like literally this is one of the core ideas of feminism.
I agree however what an ideology says on paper and how people who follow that ideology act are often two different things.

>This is not the same as the oppression trans women face tho
A passing transwoman faces much of the same problems cis women face because they're parsed as cis. Do you see where I'm going?

>This person claimed to follow a gender studies course then proceeded to spew the most ignorant and stupid babble and then framed the whole clasa roling their eyes at her as transmisogyny
Honestly it sounded like they were strawmanning what they were thought so I didn't really focus on it. If they weren't that's really messed up though.

>Being an asshole is your own choice
I think she's misguided on some issues, not an asshole, and that she does have some valid points. I think that either way her suffering is real and her perspective genuine.

>>8745169
this whole article can be condensed into literally those two things

>>8745179
dude her whole article is literally "wow these feminists aren't as interested in what i have to say because they perceive me as a cis white guy whereas I am actually a trans woman so the key point I want to make is literally #NotAllMen" lmao

like "misguided" sure? You could say that lol....
Her suffering is real, but it is self-inflicted and she spends the whole article blaming on cis women like jesus how can this get dumber

>>8745081
>no one in the whole world hates men

>>8745186
I think that you've parsed her as an enemy and decided that enemies do not deserve empathy. That is not right. Even if some of her conclusions are off she suffered real harm and blaming it all on her isn't fair.

>>8745186
How is it self-inflicted? If that is her in the thumbnail if she were to go out looking like that she would get a shitload of harrassment.

>>8745194
>this person has suffered harm
>therefore they should not be criticized by anyone ever when many of the same problems she's faced have been faced and overcome by millions of trans women.

>>8745199
Criticize. Criticize all you like. But also empathize. One can be harmful in some ways and still be a victim.

>>8745197
she doesn't have to transition
all she has to do is tell people "hey, I am a trans woman and these are my views", instead of asking everyone around her to believe that how she sees the world is how the average cis male sees it
>>8745202
difficult to emphathize when there are numerous trans women who aren't assholes

>>8745143
>I agree that responding with Not All Men is often a way to silence discourse about what men as a class tend to do

I'm going to go off on a wild tangent here, so feel free to disregard. But more and more lately, I'm noticing aspects of 'SJW' and 'anti-SJW' rhetoric overlapping.
Like, feminists are mad that Not All Men ignores observation of trends in favour of individuals and outliers, but at the same time feminists get butthurt about that google memo for observing trends rather than individuals and outliers.
(Which cuts both ways, in the way people dismiss observation of trends with Not All Men).

Same shit going on with the recent white supremacy shit show on one hand, and islamic terrorism on the other. Where die hard lefties will refuse to acknowledge the value in moderate Muslims denouncing radical Islam, while also acting like all white people apologise for white supremacy. And again on the other side, people who DO hold all of Islam accountable for the radicals handwaving overall western accountability for white supremacy.

And as far as trans issues, you have people like Blaire White who say transitioning isn't for everybody, but then get into wars with people on the 'other side' who say not all trans people want to transition.

It's fucking weird. America in general seems so focused on superficial differences preventing them from being able to acknowledge the points on which they agree. So now they have a wacko reality TV star in office, and everyone who hates him is looking to equally unqualified celebrities on 'their side'. As well as the hypocrisy in people condemning Trump for certain things because they don't like him, while overlooking instances where the exact same thing went down while Obama was in office because he's their guy.

It's so absurd on both sides.

>>8745161
>being an asshole is your own choice lmao

Literally how is she being an asshole though?

>>8745205
>all she has to do is tell people "hey, I am a trans woman and these are my views"
Because that's so easy. Because no one would give her shit about that. Sure.

>>8745226
read the thread
>>8745231
her close friends who are apparently feminists? idk, doubtful.
Either way, millions of trans people come out, idk it's hard to emphathize with that. She seems to have her own life and is in no danger of getting thrown out by her parents. She's being an asshole to other people, this isn't harmless

>>8745247
>She's being an asshole to other people,
No she isn't.

>>8745247
>She's being an asshole to other people, this isn't harmless
HOW?!

>>8745218
I don't think you're totally off but, perhaps because I'm firmly on the left (though I'm not American nor liberal), I feel that the right almost universally takes this shit in a far more dangerous direction. For example take the Google manifesto: yes, the left's reflexive, allergenic response to the science cited therein was denialist in nature. No, the right making mountains out of the population-level difference molehills and trying to use them as a way to explain away sexism isn't as bad but far far worse. The actual differences that you can't explain socioeconomically are incredibly minute. Consider the following: it might be that the financial pressure in less developed countries is enough to overwrite the gendered pressure and as financial pressure eases up at a rate more rapid than gendered pressure the latter wins over. The actual "done science" observations are very conservative. On the other hand we know that workplace harassment is definitely associated with harassed people quitting at a higher rate.

>>8745261
>to explain away sexism
What sexism?

>>8745272
I don't understand your question.

>>8745274
What sexism are you claiming he is trying to explain away?

>>8745277
Sexist attitude are found nearly everywhere, including in culture, in the education system and at work. Not everyone are sexist but it is prevalent enough to pose a problem. Damore argued that the disparity between the amount of men and women found in tech is (mostly) down to biological differences, thus "explaining away" sexism as a possible cause of the disparity, or at least as a significant component of it.

>>8745285
What sexism do you think causes the disparity in tech?

>>8743435
aw, I was on the verge of tears for the last half of that, I'm transitioning but it's still very relateable

>>8745293
Not that anon but societal norms play orders of magnitude more importance than "biological differences" when it comes to tech fields. If that isn't patently obvious you should interact with more nonconforming women. Or just more women in general really.

>>8745293
First thing first, I acknowledge that even in a perfectly egalitarian world tech would attract slightly more men, as the science suggests. I just think the distribution would be closer to 60/40 - 55/45 M/F.

It is hard to pin on one thing but here are some thoughts: though official educational channels now teach girls, from a very young age, that they're just as good as boys and that there are no "girl things" or "boy things" culture at large has yet to entirely embrace this. Traditional gender roles are still upheld by a sufficient amount of people and media. Rather often the case is not that they're putting female programmers down or anything but that they're strictly associating the image of the successful woman with a very vapid sort of femininity (commercials and ads are especially guilty of this) while the image of the scientist, the programmer and the engineer is largely male. Worse yet, it is often that of the unattractive nerdy male, which, beyond obviously being harmful to men, is also harmful to young girls because those are all of the things they're pressured not to be. Once ideas like this entrench themselves it is very hard to root them out.

Harassment of women who work in tech also plays a role. Consider the following: if we, by my estimation, lowball it and guess that only 5% of people in the workplace are seriously sexist but are not overt enough about it to get fired over their actions any given female tech worker still probably works with a handful of people like that. Hostility from just a few people is enough to make you feel unwelcome and that contributes to women leaving tech (and STEM programs) at a higher rate.

Finally you have overt sexism, where the individual perpetrating it is probably removed after doing so. The thing is that even after the offender is punished the victim doesn't always feel safe afterwards. The seeds of doubt and fear have already been planted.

>>8745293
>>8745330
I forgot another rather obvious problem: discrimination relating to maternity leaves. Officially illegal, but what happens de facto is not always what should happen de jure. Plus there's the expectation that even if both parents work the woman should be the one who puts the most effort into taking care of the kids, housework etc.

>>8745303
Social norms =/= sexism.

>>8745462
Another poster here. Social norms can be sexist. I don't get what you're trying to say.

>>8743435
>in the closet
>announce it to everyone on the Internet

something tells me this closet is pretty transparent

>>8744413
What else should she say? "I'm a gender dysphoric"?

>>8745626
That poster is a Blanchtard who doesn't believe people can be born "wrong".

>>8745656
But that doesn't matter because in under classic blanchardianism and SurveryAnon's interpretations it's possible for someone to have the condition of transsexualism and not transition

Anon's point was presumably just that you shouldn't call yourself a transwoman if you're not a woman (which is a fair point), but society generally calls everyone born male and gender dysphoric a transwoman, so "closeted transwoman" communicates it the easiest

>>8745081
Because I can relate to the concept, I used to be into MRA stuff in my younger years.

>>8745680
I understood their point. It does matter. As I see it one does not become a man or a woman by transitioning, but by already being what you are.

>>8745708
How exactly does matter? Did you also understand the post you were replying to?

>>8745703
I don't even think what she's saying is particularly MRAish. I think MRAs are generally anti-feminist. I'm a feminist. The writer spoke of the patriarchy and of how she could write one hundred other pieces about how most men hurt her and the women in her life so I think she's a feminist too. It's just more level-headed intersectional feminism.

>>8745719
What I don't understand is what you don't understand. Survey Anon said she isn't a woman because she hasn't transitioned. Me and that other poster took issue with that view, saying she is a woman nonetheless.

Zinnia's all like "Disability-adjusted life years are a thing." - what are the adjusted life years for losing your job? Your friends? Your family? Being a hon? All the money it costs to transition, if you can afford it at all?

It's not fair to compare it to a perfect fairy tale transition (in which case of course transitioning wins), you have to compare it to what the person believes or expects she will actually find on the other side.

Someone else's reaction to this I saw said flippantly "well it's better than dying" - so if your dysphoria never *quite* got bad enough to kill yourself you're not really trans? Better than dying isn't good enough if I'm not dead yet, and it doesn't absolve *you* of *your* part in making my life worse.

>>8744721
Realizing that you "have to be" strong is just another fuck you from the world when you're *not*. We can't all just pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and become strong. If we could then do you think the suicide rate would be as high as it is?

>>8744793
>I kind of just figure that she sees all of this and is frustrated by watching someone cry woe to the sky and refuse to help themselves.

The problem is that's not what she says she's reacting to. She only cares that the visible existence of someone who's able to stay in the closet without killing herself harms everyone else because it makes the normies want everyone to do that. The original writer's own pain doesn't matter at all.

>>8745725
The writer has only written two things, this, and "we should burn more oil."

>>8744826
You assumed that I'm not treated like a leper and mocked constantly. I gave up so much, life was so much easier, but it's better now because I'm really living. No longer a deadened observer to someone else's life.

>>8745768
>The original writer's own pain doesn't matter at all.
This. Zinnia isn't offering any support, sympathy or solutions. Every response is simply a "you're wrong."
She's not reassuring someone who's afraid of coming out, she's just shaming them for not doing so.

>>8745768
Sorry but that's reality. The world is a cruel place. You either help yourself or allow life to continue stepping on your face. This is kind of the problem here, repressors want to talk about issues they haven't truthfully faced and this is why they aren't taken seriously and are met with hostility. This is also why we get the mentally deranged hons in their 50s when the untreated pain of dysphoria drives them mad. You have an obligation to those who suffer like you do to try and push them to better themselves.

>>8745703
>I used to be into MRA stuff in my younger years.
WHY

>>8745800
None of what you said has anything to do with the post you're responding to.

>>8745805
It's a popular meme. "I used to be retarded *then*, so it's ok if you're retarded *now*"

At least it's not the even more popular "everyone like *us* was retarded *then*" Like really, are retardation levels so sky high you think you can claim everyone was once that dumb, and it will fly?

>>8745703
Tell me how you changed from thinking that being a man is the best thing in the world, to living as a particularly oppressed sort of woman.

>>8745873
By typing approximately 12 words on 4chan.

>>8745809
I wonder if you're retarded now

>>8745873
>thinking that being a man is the best thing in the world

You don't have to think that to be "into MRA stuff". All it takes is thinking that the world oppresses men. Which is the most natural thing in the world for a closeted trans woman to think - after all, you're a "man" supposedly, and you're oppressed, so why wouldn't you think that?

>>8745873
Seeing what life is like as a woman probably destroyed any beliefs she had in male oppression.

>>8745771
I don't understand what you mean. Could you please rephrase yourself?

>>8745800
Is insulting and belittling such people the best way to push them to better themselves? You're kicking them while they're down. They're more likely to give up entirely.

>>8745942
>after all, you're a "man" supposedly, and you're oppressed, so why wouldn't you think that?

And thiiiiiiis is how I know you're not really a woman. You realize you're the reason TERFs hate us, right? You're like, a perfect strawman for them

>>8745996
You're asked it that three times.

>>8746000
Why be worried about TERFs when you already exist?

>>8746008
And I'll keep asking until I get an answer!

>>8746014
What I meant was it's getting pretty obvious you're just trying to give it an excuse to keep mouthing off. Nobody would sit around and ask a terrorist why he terrorizes 3 times, unless maybe they're the worst Guantanimo interrogator ever.

>>8743435
Ha, I never saw the Zinnia comments when I read this last year. Thanks for posting.
I tend to agree with Zinnia, but I think she was a little bit harsh with her opinions.
I can see the pain this person went through, but I can't empathize with their decision to not get the recommended treatment for gender dysphoria. You don't get to refuse treatment and also be a martyr.

I think that the closeted trans woman made some good points about people being mean or dismissive towards men, but like Zinnia said in one of her tweets, feminist theory has always stated that Patriarchy is bad for women and men.

>>8745205
>there are numerous trans women who aren't assholes
too bad you are not one of them

>>8746031
I see. That's not my intent. Sorry if you feel that I've made this thread worse.

>>8746052
>You don't get to refuse treatment and also be a martyr.
I think that's exactly why she's a "martyr". She's so broken that she has given up.

Alright guys let's play a game
What's sadder:
>beta boy mra closet trannies getting mopey about 'misandry' or whatever
>trannies who can't show any sympathy to the aforementioned person because they constantly pretend to be the most feminist of all feminists solely because they think that's how women are supposed to act

Take your bets, the people of the internet don't get any more sad or pathetic than this folks!

>>8746077
The enlightened centrist who makes fun of everyone, demonstrating their own lack of empathy.

>>8746009
If you were a woman you would've noticed the oppression you received from not conforming to male gender roles and chalked it up to misogyny; you'd realize femininity is always devalued in society no matter who exhibits it, and that womanhood is also devalued in society regardless of their gender expression. You wouldn't feel this vague sourceless "oppression", not connect it to the possibility of your womanhood at all, and then proceed to blame it on "reeeee women are whores and won't date me".

>>8746119
Hey hey, just because I'm sad and pathetic doesn't mean I can't be aware of it in others.

>>8746167
I'm not that poster. Hot tip: women can make mistakes. They are not perfect. Sometimes their actions and thoughts go counter to their own best interest. For example a whole lot of women vote Republican.

Being wrong doesn't make someone not a woman.

>>8746031
wtf?

how common are these women who are so against the idea of "not all men"? Im unfamiliar with this and I've never met anyone like that in my life.

how can they be against sexism if they are so blatantly sexist? honestly a bit baffled by this

>>8744683
/pol/ here. Tranny salt while no reduction in gay rights is worth its wait in gold. Thanks daddy Trump!

>>8746206
Pretty much every cis girl that is/was an MRA, is one because

1) Their boyfriend is, or some guy that they're crushing on is, and they want validation from him

2) They're insecure and have spent a lot of their life being "one of the guys" because they were outcasted by women for being awkward/butch/not pretty and have bitterness and internalized misogyny because of it

Notice nowhere on this list is "they felt unable to compete with men and blamed their failures on women, and felt comfortable doing so because they see women as the "other"". Maaaayybe a type 2 who's a closet FtM could be that way, but then they're not a woman.

>>8746293
Basically "Not All Men" is sometimes used as a way to shut down discussions about ways in which men as a group tend to be problematic so feminists became wary of it. Later on a bunch of lousy people started using this as an excuse to actually insult all men, saying that those who dispute them are just Not All Manning.

As usual bastards ruined things for everyone else.

>>8746293
>how can they be against sexism if they are so blatantly sexist?
Yeah I don't get how people can believe feminism either.

>>8746340
I don't know exactly why that Anon did what they did but insinuating that someone can't be a certain gender because they did something bad is messed up. Repressors are exceptionally messed up and are capable of a great deal of crazy things.

>>8746367
My issue isn't that it's "bad" or an ideology I disagree with, my issue is that it's highly uncharacteristic behavior of a woman. Most trans women have qualities that are uncharacteristic of a woman -- broad shoulders, wide jaw, narrow hips, etc -- there's nothing inherently wrong with that. These are physical qualities that are often unfixable, so they aren't bad, negative, invalidating things. I have sympathy for trans women who don't pass, but from knowing them, truly have the heart and soul of a woman. And that's what being trans kinda is at its core, it's a biological/cosmic/whatever you wanna believe/ mishap where a person is born male with the heart and soul of a woman (or vice versa). But if you want to talk about behavior and actions, those are things that most people have near complete control over. So when I see a trans woman who is dripping with male entitlement and toxic masculinity, and doesn't even bother addressing it, then yah I see them as far less legitimate.

>>8745733
I don't understand how her being a woman or not is related to my post, which you were quoting >>8745626

Explained point of my post ion my other post
>>8745680
>but society generally calls everyone born male and gender dysphoric a transwoman, so "closeted transwoman" communicates it the easiest

>>8746447
What compels you to state that women must conform to physical stereotypes?
Tradition?
Ignorance?

Women come in all shapes and sizes.

>>8746340
>the only women who disagree with me are either insecure or doing it because of boys

Ah, I see you have a large amount of respect for women and their individuality/opinions.
>>8746447
>It's highly uncharacteristic behavior of a woman

Exactly, women wash dishes not have opinions.

Thank you for defending the rights and identities of women everywhere my feminist friend.

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9KB, 200x200px

>>8746460
>>8745733
At least I assume that was you, I got kinda lost in the anons

>Me and that other poster
The whole time I assumed I'm replying to the same person that started the discussion
Sometimes I hate anonymity

>>8746463
>These are physical qualities that are often unfixable, so they aren't bad, negative, invalidating things

Did you even read my post? And yah a lot of ppl are gonna hold trans women to the same or even higher physical standards as cis women. Shit sux and it's not something I support.

>>8746466
I said most, and left out an important subtype: women who are first world and fairly privileged so they can just inconsequentially not care about feminism if they don't want to

>Exactly, women wash dishes not have opinions.
Thank you for inadvertently proving my point by projecting your MRA views onto me.

>>8746469
Then go to facebook

>>8746447
I think that a lot of people go at least low-key insane before transitioning and that this can explain much. Trying to be as masculine as possible to overcome your desire to be feminine is a common narrative and hyper-masculinity is very close to toxic masculinity. I'd expect such people to act like really shitty men before breaking down. It parallels how some gay people are really homophobic before they grow to accept themselves. It's a way to distance yourself from the "wrong" feelings you're having. Some marry. Some join the military. Some become ultra-masculine shitlords.

I'm not saying that you should tolerate such behavior but that it doesn't mean that person can't be trans. People who transition generally outgrow such things, right?

>>8746447
Also for the record the person you've been arguing with up to now (i.e. me) is the third responder.

>>8745800
>Sorry but that's reality. The world is a cruel place. You either help yourself or allow life to continue stepping on your face.

It's not a choice. It's just how some people are. Some people aren't strong enough and never will be. The least you can do for them is not contribute to the cruelty.

>>8743435
I wasn't going to read it because it said "26 minute read" and I wanted to go nope but then I actually started reading it and got completely engrossed and read the entire thing.

Now at the end of it I just want to give the author a hug.

>>8744793
I've come to see their stance as a very reasonable one. I'm not abandoning men and I'd rather be dead than siding with a femishit.

>>8747057
The author is a feminist and went into how she could write 100 other articles about how men who buy into toxic masculinity harm her and those around her, but that this one is about what she isn't allowed to say.

>>8746516
>Thank you for inadvertently proving my point by projecting your MRA views onto me

I'm a feminist bb, which is exactly why I see your claims that only certain women hold the opinions you don't like for the sexism it is. Women have a right to their opinions regardless of how stupid or not they are, they can be MRAs, they can be republicans, they can believe a womans place is in the kitchen, and it's not because their insecure or because some man told them to feel that way, it's because women have their own opinions! Isn't that exciting! I know such a concept might seem scary to your male-socialized tranny brain, but it's true, women are individuals with opinions too! Don't get yourself worked up thinking about it too much tho, if such an idea is too scary for you I wouldn't want you to have a heart attack or something.

same people that bully repressers make fun of hons

>>8747103
I know this is 4chan but you're being hateful to someone who clearly shares a lot of values with you. How is
>I know such a concept might seem scary to your male-socialized tranny brain
at all helpful?

>>8745081
kill yourself

>>8746516
>women who are first world and fairly privileged so they can just inconsequentially not care about feminism if they don't want to

Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that exactly what feminism struggled for, a world where women can just peacefully live their lives and pursue their dreams without having to constantly worry about what the fact that their a woman will hold them back from?
Why would you wish that pressure on women, to be in a position where they can't afford not to struggle for their rights?

I'd rather deal with a girl too privileged to see value in feminism than a girl so privileged that she thinks policing how men sit is a valuable use of feminism.

>>8747132
Are you seriously asking me why I from a feminist stand-point might be rude to a tranny trying to define womanhood as "has the same opinions and values that I feel are woman-values"? I'm not even anti-trans but that's the exact type of fuel that keeps the "TERF" ideology going.

>>8745800
>the world is cruel therefore it's ok if I treat you like shit

>>8747181
I'm the poster who has been arguing with that poster up until this point. I think you can tell someone off without coming for their identity. This is what I told that poster and this is what I'm telling you: thinking or doing something doesn't mean you can't be of a certain gender. You used the term tranny as an actual insult.

>>8745081
Misandry real tho. But hey, what else could I expect from France but another blind progressive tranny?

>>8746447
>blatant discriminating against men is good

and then you wonder why you get a pushback
because you are sexist piece of shit
and you smear every woman who disagrees with all the same as you smear men

>>8747259
When did they say that?

>>8747239
>thinking or doing something doesn't mean you can't be of a certain gender
Hey thanks for repeating my point back to me buddy I never would have figured that out without you dude thanks bro
>You used the term tranny as an actual insult
Oh boohoo how could I?
If some AMAB tranny wants to try and dictate when and why women can hold certain opinions as if they're some arbitrator of womanhood I'm gonna be honest with them:
They're clearly a male-socialized misogynist with a laughable idea of feminism, and as someone born male they're definitely not the first person who should be up for deciding what the right opinions someone has to have to qualify for womanhood.

>>8747308
>Hey thanks for repeating my point back to me buddy I never would have figured that out without you dude thanks bro
Well, you seem to have forgotten this so I took it upon myself to give you a reminder.

>Oh boohoo how could I?
That's a good question. Why did you think that was fine? You could probably just convince that person that you're right instead of rushing to insult them. Mending is better than ending.

>If some AMAB tranny wants to try and dictate when and why women can hold certain opinions as if they're some arbitrator of womanhood I'm gonna be honest with them: They're clearly a male-socialized misogynist with a laughable idea of feminism, and as someone born male they're definitely not the first person who should be up for deciding what the right opinions someone has to have to qualify for womanhood.
They clearly want to be a good feminist. Why is your first instinct to destroy rather than correct? Why is this ground for attacking their identity?

As an aside I don't even know whether they're a she, hence why I keep saying they instead of she.

>>8747358
>Well, you seem to have forgotten this so I took it upon myself to give you a reminder
Nothing in my post indicated that my dude. Maybe you'd have realized that if you actually cared about womens opinions instead of rushing to defend your man-ego that I bruised by using a pretty commonplace insult(one that wasn't even targeted at you at that), on 4chan of all places.
>Why did you think that was fine?
This is 4chan, if someone wants a civil conversation on here that's fine but I'm not gonna play nice when people saying some stupid ignorant ass shit on here.
>They clearly want to be a good feminist
They're clearly not doing a good job.
>Why is this ground for attacking their identity
Maybe because I care more about them saying shit that invalidates actual cis womens opinions than I care about potentially hurting their fee-fees.
>As an aside I don't even know whether they're a she, hence why I keep saying they instead of she.
That's nice, but it can be pretty easy to spot a MtF on the internet, especially on this board.

>>8747308
All feminism is laughable. Your posts read like a parody.

>>8747426
>Nothing in my post indicated that my dude.
Aside from the implication that that poster only holds that opinion because they're, according to your view, an MTF, which implies that a cis woman couldn't hold the same opinion. You then implied that holding that opinion makes them less womanly.

>Maybe you'd have realized that if you actually cared about womens opinions instead of rushing to defend your man-ego that I bruised by using a pretty commonplace insult(one that wasn't even targeted at you at that), on 4chan of all places.
Ah, yes, caring for others is impossible and other people doing something means it's okay.

>This is 4chan, if someone wants a civil conversation on here that's fine but I'm not gonna play nice when people saying some stupid ignorant ass shit on here.
And what is the end result of this line of thought? Will that poster promptly change their mind and stop posting this, or will they double down and keep posting this for years and years? Have your actions actually made the world a better place by curbing problematic behavior or did you just miss a chance to turn a foe to a friend who will help you fight your battle?

>They're clearly not doing a good job.
You could help them improve.

>Maybe because I care more about them saying shit that invalidates actual cis womens opinions than I care about potentially hurting their fee-fees.
Okay, you hurt their feelings. Do you think this will stop them from doing the same thing later? Do you think that, approaching this in a more diplomatic fashion, you couldn't possibly convince them to adopt your views and spread them instead? Why destroy someone who seeks to do good but stumbles instead of redirecting them?

>That's nice, but it can be pretty easy to spot a MtF on the internet, especially on this board.
When you assume etc etc

>>8747483
Did you find the post in the OP laughable? because it was written by a feminist.

>>8745247
>he writes about how feminists hate all men for being men and claim that everything bad is masculinity
>he also writes about how feminists say men should discuss feminity because they are not women while also saying they shouldn't discuss masculinity because they are men
>REEEEE, HE'S AN ASSHOLE
Way to go.

>>8746447
>le "toxic masculinity and male entitlement" may-may
And that's how you know someone's opinion is worthless.

>>8747627
In what way are those not real?

>>8747068
Yeah, but they admitted that feminists are a bunch of entitled hypocritical cunts who basically hate men and masculinity. No feminist would acknowledge that.

>>8747679
She did not. She said some feminists are problematic. You're projecting your hatred of feminism unto her work.

>>8747647
In the way that feminists consider all masculinity as bad and toxic. It's like saying "I only hate Muslims who are terrorists" and then saying all Muslims are terrorists, it's just laughable.

>>8747693
Sure.

>>8747548
No it was ok. It might have been written by a feminist but the content wasn't very feminist. I did have a nice laugh at the comments, however.

>>8747647
In the way that they are made up man hating bullshit.

Half of all men that have existed never passed on their genes.

Cis women have always been the arbitrators of humanity, selecting the biggest, smartest and most confident males to have children with.

I have a feminist final solution idea: Cis Women should only reproduce with the dumbest, weakest, poorest and useless of our male species, the smarter the woman is the dumber her partner should be to ensure the superiority of womankind.

>>8747753
You don't understand how genetics works.

>>8747806
>not getting the joke

>>8747103
I'm back "bb"

Anyway you took pretty much a simplification of my argument and turned it around to apply it to me? Can't tell if that's sarcasm.

Obviously it's not that women -can't- be MRAs/republicans/whatever and I'm not the thought police, but acting like that "diversity of thought" is inherently virtuous is misguided. I'm gonna be suspicious of anyone who presents an ideology that is anti-woman, whether they're cis or trans. "Let women perpetuate regressive dogma!" is peak libfem.

>it's not because their insecure or because some man told them to feel that way, it's because women have their own opinions

But men do manipulate women all the time - that's not news. I'm not saying "women must be trying to appease" but "women are given cultural pressure to appease men and them deferring to an anti-feminist ideology is often a symptom of this, even if it's unconscious". Patriarchy doesn't exist in a vacuum, a woman who's willing to agree with "yeah if I'm nonconsensually impregnated i should be forced to carry to full term" is definitely influenced by sexism whether they're aware of it or not. That thought wouldn't exist and be legitamated if sexism did not exist.

>>8747719
>In the way that feminists consider all masculinity as bad and toxic.
That's untrue. Toxic Masculinity is a term distinct from Masculinity exactly because that's not the case. Some feminists do conflate the two, as you say, but they don't represent feminism as a whole.

>>8747744
I actually disagree that the content wasn't feminist, and think you're unjustly discounting feminism as a whole.

>>8747833
>Anyway you took pretty much a simplification of my argument and turned it around to apply it to me?
I noticed that too. Sorry that our argument resulted in people dogpiling you.

>>8747874
>unjustly
Yeah poor oppressed feminists. Clearly if there is anyone not getting their voices heard in today's society, it's the feminists.

>>8747891
Heard by who? You're not listening, and many share your opinion.

>>8747874
>Almost every feminist post everywhere is misandric bullshit
>"Not all feminists"
They are the majority. Whatever the ideology is, what matters is what those who associate with it do and say. It's like saying that white pride is not bad because it's just being proud of being white even though those who profess it are white supremacists. There's a reason feminism has become associated with misandry and I'm not taking the "loud minority" explanation.

>>8747874
>and think you're unjustly discounting feminism
Just like feminists unjustly discount men's opinions. An eye for an eye.

>>8747833
>"yeah if I'm nonconsensually impregnated i should be forced to carry to full term" is definitely influenced by sexism whether they're aware of it or not.

Actually there's another way of looking at it genetically and socially, if a woman in your tribe got raped and impregnated other women in the tribe would feel its their duty to help the girl bring the child to term, since the child is still related to them.

Ohh look an example that's more moral and logical and doesn't involve dividing the sexes :O

>>8747912
Funny that you pull Not All Feminists after the article in the opening post :)
I don't agree that they're the majority but I don't know how to prove that to you.

>>8747921
and the whole world goes blind..
Jennifer's a feminist, no?

>>8747927
I seriously hope you're trolling but if not that's messed up.

>>8747833
>a woman who's willing to agree with "yeah if I'm nonconsensually impregnated i should be forced to carry to full term" is definitely influenced by sexism whether they're aware of it or not.
You realise some people genuinely see abortion as murder, right? Many of whom are mothers who very much considered their children to be children at conception, and would have/did consider themselves bereaved if the pregnancy didn't come to term.

Men don't have the biology to become pregnant, the fact that this issue only impacts women is not due to sexism, this is literally the worst example you could have brought up, we have no idea what the world would look like if both sexes or males only were the ones who handled pregnancy, or if pregnancy could be handled outside the body.

>>8747900
>by who
By everybody. Feminism has become the hegemonic cultural ideology in the west. You're really fucking dense if you haven't realized this by now. If anyone isn't listening it's because they heard it a million times already and learned how to tune it out. You think anybody here has never encountered the standard feminist account about the patriarchy and toxic masculinity before?

>>8747971
>By everybody. Feminism has become the hegemonic cultural ideology in the west.
I really don't think so. I think the mainstream still very much rejects feminism beyond the very basics and that this is doubly true when it comes to right-leaning individuals and institutions. Go to just about any male-dominated space on the internet and, when the topic of feminism is brought up, chances are the majority will be against it.

>You think anybody here has never encountered the standard feminist account about the patriarchy and toxic masculinity before?
I think most people have only heard strawmen of that argument.

>>8747966
No, I've actually lived it and felt the feelings, when my best friend said she was accidentally pregnant from a one night stand and she was gonna keep it I was joyful and promised I'd do anything I can to help during the whole process, I kept that promise and still visit her and baby Jack once every 2 weeks and help out in anyway I can.

Sometimes I think feminists are detached from womanhood, it felt like a primal instinct to be there for my friend and help bring a life into the world,

Keep in mind I'm pro choice but I just can't deny those feelings I still have almost 2 years later.

>>8747927
>if a woman in your tribe got raped and impregnated other women in the tribe would feel its their duty to help the girl bring the child to term, since the child is still related to them.
Kill it if it's a boy, raise it if it's a girl.

t. hxc feminist

>>8747958
I pull "Not all feminists" because, since you are dismissing the problem that most feminists are misandrists by saying that "it's just some feminists", it is as valid as "Not all men" she used appropriately and not as a way to dismiss a proper argument (which you weren't making). And, now that we're at it, tell me: what is toxic masculinity? Since you claim that it's different from masculinity, even though all feminists don't think that's true, you must know what it is, right?

>>8748162
And this is why we need artificial wombs, so that we can finally get rid of those backstabbing ungrateful misandric cunts that are women.

>>8748192
*when used properly. My brain short-circuited for a second there.

>>8748192
As to not leave you hanging I hope that you'll believe me when I say that I'm going to bed now rather than dodging the argument. It's 2:23 AM. Hopefully someone else answers you though. Good [whatever time it is over there now], Anon.

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145KB, 1006x872px

>>8748205
>He actually took it personally, probably feeling a brotherly sorrow for a hypothetical murdered male infant who doesn't exist even
LMAO
It's good to hear that you'll always find a way to compensate for your innate inferiority in your own special way, bud.

>>8748244
>Innate inferiority
Says the weak sex who can't even think straight because estrogen amplifies "muh feels.

>>8743435
>I Am A Transwoman. I Am In The Closet. I Am Not Coming Out.
Good.

>>8748227
Fine. I won't blame you. Good night.

>>8748331
Missed the " at the end of "muh feels", btw.

>>8744430
Remember that time she said ISIS was trying to stop the people from committing suicide on a picture of them pushing gays off a roof?

Zinnia is my second favourite twitter lolcow. After Shanley of course.

>>8748331
>Points out "muh feels"
>Does nothing but lashes out "muh-feels-ly" through the entire thread
That'll show those emotional cunts who's the stoic deep thinker boss here, champ!

>>8747103
>I know such a concept might seem scary to your male-socialized tranny brain,
Misandrist and transphobic ad hom.

>>8745996
That's not what I'm trying to do here. I'm sorry if being firm and getting to the heart of the matter isn't gentle, but people who are repressing because they are afraid are not going to be encouraged to help themselves by giving them meaningless affirmations and headpats. All it does is lead them into more pain. Transition is the only relief :\

I'm sorry but there's nothing else to say. You don't get to refuse to better yourself and then turn around and use that for sympathy.

>>8748494
Yeah, keep at it. "Ugh, boys like bugs and stuff, like, they're so gross". That's basically what you sound like.

>>8748611
I can't hear you over the sound of your emotional outbursts you had multiple times in this thread.

>>8748683
>Multiple times
2, 3 at worst. It's natural wanting to kill those who want to kill you, which is why the prospect of women becoming absolutely useless and being eliminated seems so good to me.

>>8748683
>>8748745
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqRcd30ycNY&

>>8748835
Not gonna happen.

>>8748855
Yeah I know, not an accurate depiction of you two, the couple in the video actually sounded smart :P

>>8746052
>feminist theory has always stated that Patriarchy is bad for women and men.
[citation needed]

>>8746052
>I think that the closeted trans woman made some good points about people being mean or dismissive towards men, but like Zinnia said in one of her tweets, feminist theory has always stated that Patriarchy is bad for women and men.

But they're justifying being mean by feminism. If that's patriarchy, that means feminism is part of the patriarchy.

>>8749043
If "patriarchy" means the entrenched gender norms that harm men and women, then yes feminism is a major part of it.

>>8749043
>But they're justifying being mean by feminism
Yeah you're right. No one should be mean. Women laughing at men going bald or mocking neck beards is bad. I was wrong to try to dismiss that.

>>8749020
>[citation needed]
I shouldn't have brought it up because I don't know much about feminist theory.

>>8749092
I think that feminists want to break gender norms.

>>8749281
>feminist theory has always stated
>...
>I don't know much about feminist theory.
Classic feminism.

>>8749281
>feminists want to break gender norms.
only those that are presumed as unfavorable to women
feminism operates on a marxist dogma of opressed (women) and opressors (men)

>>8745748
This. Zinnia was a very undermasculinized male when she transitioned. Many AGPs have much more masculine bodies. She also might be from a more privlieged background than some AGPs.

>>8745805
>>8745873
Well I've always had issues with being a man. I'm an awkward introverted nerdy repressor with AGP who never had a GF.

So when the MRA types start talking about how unfair the world is towards men and SJW stuff keeps growing stronger, I started to buy into their worldview.

It was also a way to feel masc while destroying my feminine self. Also if i'm stuck in man land I might as well make sure its cozy there.

I was born a little too early(mid 80s) to get sucked into the modern trans movement at a young age.

>>8749347
What evidence let you overcome your MRA phrase?

>>8749288
Yeah well don't pretend like you don't reason from your assumptions as well.
>>8749303
maxist dogma. are you just gay and pol or are you pure pol troll?

>>8749362
>Yeah well don't pretend like you don't reason from your assumptions as well.
I mean, okay?

Feminists not knowing the first thing about their claims but still stating them as facts is a very common trope. Maybe they don't expect anyone to call them out on their 'facts'?

>>8749043
>If that's patriarchy, that means feminism is part of the patriarchy.
Of course, feminists know that they're more emotional and less analytical, thats why they demand special laws and incentives to be engineers, even though most of the education system is run by women and schools are more geared to the way girls think and learn. There's even safe spaces for them to vent their ideas without rational rebuttal.

Boys are more likely to be thrown out of education and given medication so they can conform to the female teachers teachings, more girls end up in universities (where feminism is taught more and more influencing politics) but boys still out number them in stem, this angers them cos everything is supposed to be socially setup by them to make the girls perform better.

It's very obvious that most girls are interested in people and most boys are interested in things, this isn't a bad thing, women bear children they need to be reliable and social, modern feminists think this is a weakness maybe cos in the modern age analytical thinking is highly regarded and looking after kids is so last century, erasing gender to test a hypothesis that if only girls had no hangups about learning sciency things that somehow would fix the problem.
It won't work cos they deny the fact that testosterone exposure in the womb effects the levels of analytical and empathetic thinking far into adulthood.

As a trans person the initial thought of freeing gender expression for boys and girls seems appealing but realistically girly girls will find a way to be more girly and boyish boys more boyee and your left with a girl with short hair who's demanding to be called xi.

The blow-back from feminist identity politics is being played out now, by claiming to be the oppressed they have started to become the oppressors.

>>8749375
>started to become
:^)

>>8749375
Why try to highlight differences instead of showing how much males and females are the same?
And don't pressure males and females who don't fit the classic mold of their gender to conform.
feminists know that they're more emotional and less analytical
I'll take a page out of your guys book
[citation needed]
The blow-back from feminist identity politics is being played out now, by claiming to be the oppressed they have started to become the oppressors.
[citation needed]

>>8749281
>I think that feminists want to break gender norms.
Reality disagrees.

>>8749411
>Reality disagrees.
Oh wow, I get to speak with mr. Objective Reality.
hmm... oh wait, nvm
[CITATION NEEDED]

>>8749406
>feminists know that they're more emotional and less analytical
Lol since when?

>>8749406
>>8749435
>I'll take a page out of your guys book
>[citation needed]
No citation needed, claiming gender is a social construct is a common tenant of modern feminism. I can infer from that, that they believe they're constrained by the social needs of their gender, they feel like they've been deprived of higher paying jobs.

I'm not 100% sure if they know this consciously, but psychologically they're showing it in there actions/insecurities.

>Why try to highlight differences instead of showing how much males and females are the same?
The differences are strengths, we wouldn't be here if women were less caring and men less inclined to build/make.

>And don't pressure males and females who don't fit the classic mold of their gender to conform
100% agree, unfortunately it's in our nature to treat even babies different depending on their sex, baby boys are statistically left to cry longer and get less attention.
If even adults can't treat basically neutral humans the same do you expect kids to do the same?

>>8743435
I started crying at some point. I've argued with people about this shit too. No one gives a single fuck. Everything you go through veggie transition is a joke to these people. And no matter how much you talk about these things and point out the harm people do, or could do, they don't ever really listen.

I transitioned and I pass and so I get treated differently now, but veggie I transitioned my co-workers were talking about how I shouldn't be able to see female clients because of rape culture, I could possibly trigger them with my presence. Evil cis males.

>>8748587

Would you say this to a trans woman who can't come out because they've been gatekept, or have health/financial issues that prevent transition, or come from an extremely oppressive background?
Everyone has their own circumstances that might prevent them from transitioning. People don't just refuse it because it's so fun feeling dysphoric all day every day.

Honestly, it's as if she's moaning that her shoes hurt while refusing to buy in her size the way some people ITT are reacting. I totally get that someone going through these issues might be dull and frustrating for people who are long past them or had the innate strength to pretty much bypass it. But if that's the case, no one's asking you to comment.

She's hurting literally no one but herself and people are acting like she's channeling her dysfunction through fucking petty crime and violence or something. Y'know, like butthurt feminist university students.
She's just writing about her personal feelings. Maybe that's part of the process of working through her shit and fucking GETTING there, sheesh.

>>8749360
Growing older, smoking weed, getting tired of hate, reading TERF stuff, reading anti MRA alt-right stuff, working alongside women for many years, stronger dysphoria.

>>8749632
ok I have to ask
why did you write "veggie" instead of "before"

>>8749686
Because phone posting, I'm sorry, this allay happens to me.

>>8749711
I just think it's a hilarious autocorrect

>>8749672
>Would you say this to a trans woman who can't come out because they've been gatekept, or have health/financial issues that prevent transition, or come from an extremely oppressive background?

I think at the core this is what bothers me about takes like Zinnia's, or the one in the "open letter" I forget who wrote. They're just this side of explicit that they would rather have those people just kill themselves in order to avoid giving cis people any ideas about what we can survive.

>>8749722
>>8749711
>>8749686
desu I thought it was some weird new tranny slang I was behind on, like egg

>>8749735
Veggie transition: when you transition but still have crippling depression and act like a vegetable

>>8749736
Oh shit that's me.

>pre transition, get treated like the author of the article in the OP
>"you wouldn't understand, you're a man"

>post transition
>cis women taking about "the trans community" like no one from the tans community can hear them and everyone's just trying to virtue signal
>but also jokes about icky men cross dressing sometimes but hey that's not transphobic

Delete cis womyn

>>8749750

That's a fucking good point, actually. Zinnia's all butthurt that the author is judging people for judging her despite them having no way of knowing she's trans, but if she'd actually transition and happened to pass, they'd still be pulling the same shit thinking they were in good company.
And the possibility that they'd mask that behaviour if they knew she was trans doesn't really make them any better.

>>8749375
>tfw you can't respond to a post because it is a parody of itself

Like, I genuinely don't understand: if I'm already 100% hon material do you really think transitioning will make it all better?

>>8749672
Gatekept or health/financial issues, no never. I understand that pain pretty well. Oppressive background yes I would, unless you meant genuinely "we'll stone you to death" oppressive and not just your family abandoning you like they typically do.

Trivializing the matter doesn't make you right anon.

She's not just hurting herself, as you can see ITT it lends credence and encouragement to people like her that this cycle of self-harm is good and reasonable when it's no more reasonable than cutting yourself with razorblades. It hurts and you're leading yourself up to disfigurement in the future that you will regret because it helps right now. So yes, it does hurt others in an oblique way that should be recognized.

I'm not saying the hyper feminist bitches are right, and I'm not saying the second link wasn't needlessly catty. But there is something important here that should legitimately be worked out so that there are less following her example into ruin later in life.

>>8750062
>..You're leading yourself up to disfigurement in the future that you will regret
What if I'm already disfigured and beyond help?

>>8750141
Then my heart goes out to you anon :\

Have you considered HRT and staying in boymode?

>>8750141
It doesn't even matter if you've been "disfigured" by testosterone, if you're here it's already too late. As others have stated, you've already "wasted" a major part of your life and you'll always be missing a lot of stuff normal women don't. Why even consider transitioning when it can destroy everything you have and even if it doesn't it will mean that at least the first two decades of your life meant nothing? It's even less worth it considering that, at best, you'll be an imitation.

>>8750438
I'm the poster you're responding to and I think what you wrote is really misguided. Transitioning helps a lot of people and I'm by no means advocating against it. I think people who do so don't understand how beneficial it is to most trans folks. Just taking hormones in secret reportedly makes lots and lots of people feel better.

>>8750450
Placebo. As soon as they have to confront reality it will all fade.

>>8750531
That's not true. Many of them go on to be happy. Even the boymode repressors say that while they're not happy per se their dysphoria is much less acute on hormones. Transitioning is effective and I'd recommend it to anyone who can deal with the consequences. It is just that I can't.

>>8744413
>She
>'s not a trans woman
What did she mean by this?

>>8751068
>She
Is Survey Anon actually a Survey Anonette?

>>8750889
Taking HRT has a placebo effect. It's the only explanation as to why people say stupid shit like feeling better just with the first dose.

>>8751195
They still feel better on it years and years later.

>>8751195
I'm never coming out and just taking hormones for as long as possible
Placebo or not I feel better and hate my body less now

>>8751195
I've heard bro science theories about this. Like HRT helps with depression or makes men feel high.

>>8751358
It's a dirty secret, but all males wish they could be female. It's called Womb Envy. The incompleteness of being male is what drives masculine achievement, competition, and misogyny.

>>8751379
>le "all men want to be women" meme
Only trannies do. Also, why would FtMs exist then?

>>8751379
>misogyny
Want to know how I can tell you're memeing?

>>8751423
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womb_and_vagina_envy

>ftms
Womb envious Abrahamic religions oppress women's roles. Some women want out of that restrictive box.

>>8751440
How do you know? Not that anon, btw.

>>8751443
Go tell that to the people at /ftmg/, see how that goes. It's pathetic to try to feel good by deluding yourself into thinking people envy you.

>>8751440
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277539511000252
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016129565
https://medium.com/applied-intersectionality/blargh-fbfd39098f42
http://feministing.com/2009/01/24/taking_womb_envy_one_step_furt/
https://vesperwoolf.wordpress.com/2015/05/21/the-war-on-motherhood-and-women-a-psychosis-of-wombvagina-envy/

>>8746447
>a trans woman who is dripping with male entitlement and toxic masculinity,
Except OP isn't.

>>8751443
>Karen Horney
The meme names keep coming.

>>8751457
Then again, only trannies feel that.

>>8751485
Only trannies go so far as to transition, but all men subconcsiously are affected by it.

>>8751514
Nope. I'm telling you, /ftmg/ can back my claims, just ask them.

>>8751531
We live in a backwards society. Abrahamic religions promote women hatred. Feminist backlash idolizes the behavior of these woman hating males. The real reason though that I believe tranners are popping up everywhere now is thanks to disregard for the environment and all the chemicals fucking up hormones by corporations influenced by the Abrahamic ideal of hating the environment lest it be "nature worship" rather than "god" worship.

>>8746052
>but like Zinnia said in one of her tweets, feminist theory has always stated that Patriarchy is bad for women and men.
Funny how feminists ONLY EVER say this while defending their own inaction and complicity in male oppression.

Like you bringing it up in this thread.

>>8749900
Passers will NEVER understand

>>8743435
Classic numale cuck behavior.

Not a woman in the slightest.

>>8752288
How can you tell?

>>8752324
The whiny male entitlement.

>>8752358
>whiny sentiment
>legitimate female issue is I agree
>numale cuck if I don't

>>8752399
If he was a woman he would be a woman. He refuses but just cries about it. He also seems very mra. Extreme cuck behavior for any woman to have. Just accept that you have to transition to be trans.

great piece, i'm not trans but I have the feels

>>8752406
>she also seems very mra.
Which is enough in your mind to give her a professional diagnosis of cisgender.

>>8752454
Yeah, pretty much.

>>8752487
The only person you're teaching us about isn't OP, isn't MRA's, but is yourself.

>>8752514
And what does that say about me?

>>8752550
That you're a shitty asshole. Probably with a Gender Studies degree.

>>8752723
Are you a man?

>>8752789
Yes, which will make you automatically dismiss my opinion. If I were a women, you would call it internalized misogyny in order to be able to dismiss my opinion as opposed to having to debate and argument against it. You're going to prove me right. Maybe not with your next post, but you will.

>>8752815
A woman, not a women. Made a typo there.

I'm not trans you guysss!
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/08/20/richard-simmons-says-is-not-transgender-in-new-court-filing.html

>>8752815
Are you trans?

>>8752960
Why would you even think that?

>>8750062
>Trivializing the matter doesn't make you right anon.
wut?

>She's not just hurting herself, as you can see ITT it lends credence and encouragement to people like her that this cycle of self-harm is good and reasonable when it's no more reasonable than cutting yourself with razorblades.
So those other people that will be 'hurt' by her, they're all assholes too. Because by doing this, they're further fuelling encouragement.
So basically, anyone who is in pain is a douchebag who should be yelled at and shamed.

>>8753117 addendum

Honestly, this attitude pisses me off so much. You act as if every single person on the planet is the same and you have ultimate knowledge of what they're going to do.

Did it ever cross your mind that some people in that situation will feel more need to move on from their pain from reading a piece like this? That in writing it and being able to express herself, she's taking an important step in her own healing process?
No, it's just "hurr she said a thing, now everyone who reads it will have the exact same response, shun the nonbeliever."

Fuck you, and fuck Zinnia.

>>8753112
Get on hrt. The sooner you do the better.

>>8753322
How did you even know?

>>8750062
>But there is something important here that should legitimately be worked out so that there are less following her example into ruin later in life.
Maybe that something is catty feminists like you and Zennia not making her life so miserable.

>I have always known. It’s the first thing I remember knowing.
fuck

>>8753423
I'm trans-woman; I use my trans-sense to predict these things.

>>8754996
Seriously though, how?

>>8755003
At this point it's probably more the fact that you're reacting seriously not laughing it off.

>>8755003
after a while you start just seeing some trends in either people just starting to transition or not out to themselves yet.

Not 100% accurate of course, but not half bad either

>>8755478
>not out to themselves
how does this work

>>8755653
/repgen/
/femgen/

>>8755697
I thought repgen were out to themselves but wish they weren't

>>8755736
This.
t./repgen/ regular

>>8755653

People who explain away all the obvious signs of being trans, or deny what being trans actually is

Shit like "Oh, ever guy actually just wants to be a girl", "I'm not depressed all the time, so I'm not trans", "I masturbate so I can't be trans", "I hate using my dick for actual sex. I'm probably just a gay bottom, though"

Generally it's accompanied by things like mentally checking out whenever they have to confront their gender or whatever, drug use to aid this is not uncommon, etc etc

People who just deny it to themselves basically, because either they think they don't fit some model of TrueTrans™ or they're so horrified by the idea of being trans that they deny it with all their heart

>>8755478
you just generalize cause "why would any cis person be so interested in trans stuff and frequent this board"
"almost every chaser is a repressed tranny" etc etc

>>8755815
or maybe they actually never had female identity and dont mind being men

>>8755851
well if they do they won't have those symptoms

>>8756156
plenty of cis people are unhappy with gender roles or just plain depressed and resort to substance abuse, those are not symptoms

>>8756182
>unhappy with gender roles
so they do mind being men/women?
>depressed and substance abuse
well no shit those alone aren't symptoms but if they result from the gender issues then they are

>>8756195
no, they just diverge from the traditional gender roles/norms - which has become extremely common among western women now - yet none of them are trans

>result from the gender issues
big 'if', I've had psychological disorders long before I had any gender issues but everyone here is projecting and thinks it must be dysphoria

>>8755815
>"I masturbate so I can't be trans"
Keep on denying AGP, trans community.