Do you feel it now?

This stupid shit, all day every day.

>do you consider the fact that this is a mental illness. Not in a pejorative sense. Like depression or schizophrenia. I was thinking and you don't give the schizo a gun. Why the trans person hormones and a gender reassignment.
"Mental illness" is a really imprecise term that in no way implies a particular form of treatment is appropriate or inappropriate.

>I've seen stats hat say suicide rate is equal to or higher post op.
No, you haven't. No such stats exist. You misunderstood whatever you read.

1) There are no pre-op stats because it is logistically impossible to collect those.

2) Post-op stats were once quite high but have improved in recent decades and the largest study to date found our suicide rates to be negligibly higher than the general population.

3) Other studies on the mental health of trans people (i.e. studying other things besides suicide, like rates of depression or ability to maintain personal relationships) have overwhelmingly found that transition greatly improves our mental health.

>Does anybody here feel like they are just being used by the industry to get a quick buck
Hormones are dirt-cheap, anon. Without insurance, I pay about ten bucks a month. WITH insurance, I pay ten bucks for about a half-year's supply.

Top surgery for FtMs is under ten grand in most places.

Bottom surgery is something many of us don't even get, and we're 0.03% of the population to begin with.

"The industry" undoubtedly make more money off Viagra and Botox than trannies.

>instead of figuring out if these decisions are really what you want.
It is really what I want. Pinky-promise.

>enabled
It's not an addiction. It's a brain disorder.

>Thoughts?
I hope you come back in the next life as an intelligent tranny and have to spend large amounts of time and emotional energy either ignoring or arguing with dolts who can't use Google.

>>8600011
Depression isn't a mental illness, but yes like it.

>>8600155
Yes it is, short bus.

>>8600343
No it isn't, butt brain.

I thought hormones were improving my outlook on life, but recently I realized my therapist is jewish

>>8600123
first post best post
/thread

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>>8600942

>>8601010
>CDC
kek

>>8600011
We give people with depression anti-depressants. We give people with dysphoria the appropriate hormones. Whatever stops people from killing themselves.

>>8600123
/thread

>Do you consider the fact that this is a mental illness.
Yes, obviously. How is it not LMAO
I'm MtF and wish I was just a cis girl or a cis guy.

>>8601025
when did this board become so retarded, this entire month has been low effort 80 IQ trolls

>>8601252
Not an argument.

Oh no. OP is retarded

>>8600011
So give it some thought? Why do you make a post without having giving it a single though?

>>8600123
>fighting with a spray painted wall that insulted your mom
>throwing ice cubes at the sun
>having this much free time

>>8601252
I have also noticed a huge upswing in trolls. School's out?

>>8601302
Neither was "kek." Do you have some kind of explanation for what's wrong with citing the CDC on what is and isn't an illness?

>>8601558
It's generally a mistake to think it's "not worth it" to engage ignorance. That just means ignorance endlessly proliferates.

>>8600123
doing God's work you blessed tranny

>>8600011
when the british or mexicans or canadians invade america for the (((third))) time, i will be handing out guns to every able bodied man woman and child.

you god damned right i will give guns to schizophrenics and people whom the government has stolen their right to own guns.

wait, what are we protecting if british and mexicans invade?

>>8600123
>Hormones are dirt-cheap, anon. Without insurance, I pay about ten bucks a month. WITH insurance, I pay ten bucks for about a half-year's supply.

You forgot to mention that the drugs used for HRT are also already high in demand. Estradiol is used for menopausal women and hirsutism, spironolactone is used for blood pressure and acne, testosterone is used for testosterone deficency in men and some cancers, etc. The amount of these pills being used for trans issues is an incredibly small fraction compared to those being used for extremely prevalent conditions like high blood pressure and menopause.

>>8600123
Hey anon, I just wanted you to know I came to /lgbt/ out of curiosity and clicked on this thread when I saw it in the catalog because the OP seemed to me like good questions, and you proved that they have very good answers. Thank you for educating me.

>>8600123
>Hormones are dirt cheap.
Where do you buy them? Still not on hormones yet but GHI had AAs at least for like €60

>>8600123
>this stupid shit all day everyday
I apologize for not having the unnecessary urge to cut my dick off or take hormones. Sorry I have a genuine question as to this gets a lot of hate and I believe cause it's misunderstood.

>mental illness
So cutting off your dick and self mutilation isn't a form of mental illness. Okay.

>suicide rates
Isn't this a cure all. Isn't this what they wanted. Even one suicide means it's not a viable process.

>being used for money
So when you get that surgery and have to shove a medical dildo in your "vagina" everyday tell me that you weren't being used for a profit and this is what you wanted

I tried to ask genuine questions cause I'm curious. Your holier than though response didn't help and I can now safely say fuck trannys. It's not something a normal person experiences so apologies for trying to understand. Your post told me everything I need to know, you'd think somebody with something in their life such as this would be a little more receptive to people actually trying to learn about what's going on.
Inb4: traps are gay.

>>8604436
>I tried to ask genuine questions cause I'm curious.
Your words quite clearly demonstrates that was not the case.

>>8602538
And if an aestroid was going to hit the earth in 45 minutes I'd rape an elephant.what point are you trying to make? Goes to show you guys really are mentally deficient.

>>8604449
Well not anymore. OP here, my second post is a response to being patronized for asking about something I don't know about. My first post was genuine curiosity. As somebody who doesn't deny biology I'm not going to instantly jump on the tranny train because "trans rights are humans rights" yes trans are humans but trying to question and understand this doesn't impose on those rights. Once again as somebody who is strait and a male it's not something I can think about subjectively only objectively.

>>8602826
Good point. I didn't think of it.

>>8603499
Thanks, and you're welcome.

>>8604436
>So cutting off your dick and self mutilation isn't a form of mental illness.
That's not what I said, was it? I said that "mental illness" is an imprecise term.

It's like if people thought every "disease" was addressed by taking antibiotics. Imagine trying to explain to someone that there are "diseases" you treat with radiation, or surgery, and having them demand to know why you don't treat it "properly" with antibiotics.

>Even one suicide means it's not a viable process.
Complete nonsense. By this logic, psychiatric mediation is not a viable treatment for depression either, since plenty of people on Prozac and similar commit suicide (and suicidal ideation is actually a common side effect).

Additionally, people commit suicide for unrelated reasons. Crazy, but true!

>So when you get that surgery and have to shove a medical dildo in your "vagina" everyday tell me that you weren't being used for a profit and this is what you wanted
I'm an FtM. The fact that you didn't even consider that possibility says a lot.

But I've already had to get surgery for other reasons, and the recovery was depressing and hard and guess what? It's what I wanted. Your emotionally manipulative suggestion here is that because a surgery has a difficult healing process, it must somehow be wrong to do. Wake up, that's EVERY surgery ever to a greater or lesser degree. Surgery is just kind of inherently barbaric, but it's the best we've got.

I've already explained why trans people aren't a great source of "profit," but I don't begrudge doctors getting paid.

>I tried to ask genuine questions cause I'm curious.
BULLSHIT.

An intellectually honest person doesn't start from a point of, "hey, I got this info from [anti-you] source, I guess it's probably right, how do you defend yourself, haha, guess you're probably just nuts!"

>>8604464
>As somebody who doesn't deny biology
Brains are biological.

>>8600123
First post best post

>>8604464
>As somebody who doesn't deny biology
lmao then you wouldn't deny the medical fact that trans people are biologically intersexed when it comes to the brain

>>8604436
>hehe i was just curious you guys i promise im not from pol trying to bait with the same thread you get every day
kill yourself

>>8604436
>Isn't this a cure all. Isn't this what they wanted. Even one suicide means it's not a viable process.

Cures in medicine are pretty rare, anon. Do you really think any procedure that doesn't have an absolute 100% success rate should be considered unviable? Organ transplants, complex surgeries, chemotherapy, etc?

And remember that trans people are still people like anyone else. Sometimes people are just suicidal for all sorts of reasons, not every trans person who commits suicide does it because they're trans. And even the ones who do kill themselves over being trans generally only do it either because of social stigmatization, or because they didn't manage to pass after transitioning. If early, pre-pubertal transition were more accepted and normalized, that problem wouldn't even exist, and the statistics do show that early transitioners are just as happy as any other kid their age. Arguing that we shouldn't do transitions because it may be too late for some people is like saying we shouldn't do chemotherapy because sometimes a person's cancer is too advanced.

>>8604449
>>8604927
>>8604954
>>8605332
I'll be coming back here to thank you circus of freaks in a couple years or so when pedophilia starts getting pushed cause a minority of people want to LARP as a different sex. It does affect me and my community. Your degeneracy will come to an end.

>>8608169
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

A slippery slope argument (SSA), in logic, critical thinking, political rhetoric, and caselaw, is a consequentialist logical device[1] in which a party asserts that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant (usually negative) effect.[2] The core of the slippery slope argument is that a specific decision under debate is likely to result in unintended consequences. The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process that leads to the significant effect. This type of argument is sometimes used as a form of fear mongering, in which the probable consequences of a given action are exaggerated in an attempt to scare the audience. The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B. In a non-fallacious sense, including use as a legal principle, a middle-ground possibility is acknowledged, and reasoning is provided for the likelihood of the predicted outcome.

>>8605332
>If early, pre pubertal transition were allowed
Yeah this is where you get the rope. If a kid can't fucking vote for lawmakers to make that law or even consent to sex what makes you think giving kids hormones that could alter their life forever is a good idea before their brains tarts developing fully. You guys are mentally ill and degenerate. Pushing this shit on kids. Who's to say a parent isn't going to propagate their kid for fame. In the bin you all go

>>8608180
I use to be there with you buddy but I didn't believe the older folks when they said it started with the gays. And the slippery slope is very real. Pedophiles will be next mark my words.

>>8608191
Some writers distinguish between a slippery slope event and a slippery slope argument.[3][4]:122 A slippery slope event can be represented by a series of conditional statements, namely:
if p then q; if q then r; if r then … z.
The idea being that through a series of intermediate steps p will imply z. Some writers point out that strict necessity isn't required and it can still be characterized as a slippery slope if at each stage the next step is plausible.[3][5]:186 This is important for with strict implication p will imply z but if at each step the probability is say 90% then the more steps there are the less likely it becomes that p will imply z.
A slippery slope argument is typically a negative argument where there is an attempt to dissuade someone from taking a course of action because if they do it will lead to some unacceptable conclusion.[1] Some writers point out that an argument with the same structure might be used in a positive way in which someone is encouraged to take the first step because it leads to a desirable conclusion.[6]
If someone is accused of using a slippery slope argument then it is being suggested they are guilty of fallacious reasoning and whilst they are claiming that p implies z, for whatever reason, this is not the case. In logic and critical thinking textbooks slippery slopes and slippery slope arguments are normally discussed as a form of fallacy although there may be an acknowledgement that non-fallacious forms of the argument can also exist.[7]:273–311

>>8608196
Trans rights are humans rights they are misunderstood.
Pedophile rights are human rights. They are misunderstood.
>I'll be back to say "I told you so"

>>8608169
>>8608191
>>8608202
I like how because you've lost the argument you've just like had to pull in an entirely different group of people.
>oh transitioning is a legit treatment?.... Uhh.. well.... Pedophile exist!

And...?

>>8608202
Different writers have classified slippery slope arguments in different and often contradictory ways,[7]:273–311 but there are two basic types of argument that have been described as slippery slope arguments.[8][9] One type has been called the causal slippery slope,[10][11]:308 and the distinguishing feature of this type is that the various steps leading from p to z are events with each event being the cause of the next in the sequence.[12] The second type might be called the judgmental slippery slope with the idea being that the 'slope' does not consist of a series of events but is such that, for whatever reason, if a person makes one particular judgment they will rationally have to make another and so on. The judgmental type may be further sub-divided into conceptual slippery slopes and decisional slippery slopes.
Conceptual slippery slopes, which Trudy Govier calls the fallacy of slippery assimilation,[11]:342 are closely related to the sorites paradox so, for example, in the context of talking about slippery slopes Merilee Salmon can say, "The slippery slope is an ancient form of reasoning. According to van Fraassen (The Scientific Image), the argument is found in Sextus Empiricus that incest is not immoral, on the grounds that 'touching your mother's big toe with your little finger is not immoral, and all the rest differs only by degree.'"[13]

>>8600011
if there were pills to make me not trans i'd totally take it. In fact, I was on a $500-a-week cocktail of antidepressants/ anti-anxiety meds before starting 'mones, but as soon as i got testosterone i really didn't need them anymore.

your absolutely right, trans is a mental thing. Masculine brains are meant to run on testosterone, feminine on estrogen, and we really should recognize peoples brains/souls/conciousnesses as well as their physical meat-bodies.

>>8608527
Both men and women require various levels of estrogen and testosterone to function. Seriously, stop forcing this meme.

>>8608569
and my ovaries do make a decent amount of estrogen. its slightly elevated as of last test, actually, but well within range for natal dudes. Ive been talking to my doctor about possible surgeries, and we might put me on tiny amounts of estrogen post-op just to keep things in that range.

you are right, people should have at least a small amount of either testosterone or estrogen depending, and trans healthcare has been bad about that in the past. But we're learning, the science is improving, and eventually the treatments will be far less crude. just like the treatments for cancer got better, we're still learning here.

>>8608212
And this opens the fucking door for oenophiles. I'm not against trans, trans are people I've worked with them and my friend is one. You guys are being used to push an agenda and while it's all nice and well the issue isn't trans as a whole but promoting something under the guise of being progressive and deteriorating society. Live your god damn life the way you want but don't make me accept it and don't make me fund your crazy fantasy world. And just wait till this shit starts getting into sports and you have men just saying they are trans to win. BRUCE Jenner was the worst poster child for your movement and I'm sure most trans write him off but it's the direction this is taking the country. Nothing to do with your dilusional about what you were and weren't born with.

>>8608191
That's not what the slipper slope fallacy is about you mong. Obviously things do then to progress, that's just true. But arguing that we shouldn't support trans people because it will lead to support for pedophiles is a fallacy. There's no reason you can't just support trans people and then not support pedophiles, at all. And if you go down the logical path of your slippery slope, then going against pedophiles and trannies is pointless anyways because everything has been inevitable since the start.

>>8602454
How much do you know about the CDC?

>>8609327
I support trans for the last time. I don't know the answer to this question. It's not a problem I just think that this opens the door for other shit. I feel like there's a different way to go about this then physically changing your body. Idk, I view this as something very objective. You're born with a dick you are a man end of story regardless of how you feel. It's forcing people to play along in your mental illness to a degree that no other mental illness does. What if I say I feel one way and start demanding things? It sets another precedent for another thing for another precedent. Slippery slope. Yeah I don't care but it's true and there's no denying.

>>8608169
I love how it was, "I was just curious, you were mean to me when I was an asshole, wah!" and then you abandoned that five posts later to call us "circus freaks."

See? I was right about you from the first post. Dumb as a stump and here in bad faith.

>>8608188
>could alter their life forever
We give kids plenty of medication that could alter their lives forever.

>Pushing this shit on kids.
I begged my parents to start my transition pre-puberty. That was in 1995, so I was told to wait; if I were a kid today, I might have a shot at a normal childhood. But people like you would assume my parents somehow forced it on me. As if any sane parents want a tranny kid.

We need to be extremely cautious and to work to develop screen methods that will avoid false positives. But allowing kids to transition will improve trans health care in the long run.

>>8608202
I will personally shoot the politician who removes AoC laws in the middle of the forehead. There's your slippery slope, dickweasel.

>>8610407
Got something to say, say it.

>>8611334
Not who you're replying to but how did you know you wanted to be a girl pre-puberty?

>>8611182
You're literally denying science.

Trans people aren't biologically male or female, they're intersex.

>>8604436
>Isn't this a cure all. Isn't this what they wanted. Even one suicide means it's not a viable process.
>just one case of a treatment not working perfectly means it should be abandoned completely
So throw away all medicine then?
Oh or should it only count when the treatment triggers your oversensitive feels?

>>8608188
>If early, pre pubertal transition were allowed
It is allowed, kids are allowed to get on blockers these days.

>Yeah this is where you get the rope.
Go ahead and do it you pussy cuck, you bitch and cry all day online but you're a coward who will never actually "rise up" in real life and the real day of rope is when you realize the world has left you behind and you hang yourself.

>uh yeah if kids can't consent to join the military how come they can consent to medical treatment, huh? I bet no one has even thought of this flawless logic
Because kids still need medical treatment, you retard, and we don't restrict it just for triggering some keyboard commandos on 4chan.

>Who's to say a parent isn't going to propagate their kid for fame. In the bin you all go
The medical oversight. Who's to say it couldn't happen for other conditions? oh better ban all child psychiatry just in case!

>>8600011
>Listening to pol
Dog those stats are either bs or old
Id give you the study i have that shows the opposite but unfortunately im on a medical errand and phone posting. If this shitposting thread actually is here when i get back ill break it down for you

As for muh big pharma pocketing the medical money most trannies try to go overseas for surgery, not here. Burgerstan is far behind in tranny medicine.

>>8600123
ormones are dirt-cheap, anon. Without insurance, I pay about ten bucks a month. WITH insurance, I pay ten bucks for about a half-year's suppl

how? I agree theyre cheap but not that cheap!

>>8608169
>>8608191
>>8608202
Ironically there's actually a lot more cross over with anti-trans and pro-pedo groups and individuals.
Several of the more dedicated troll spammers have been pedophiles like kek, or that overweight underage /pol/fag, or just any of the people making threads about how pedos deserve acceptance more than trannies and if kids can consent to transition then everyone HAS to allow adults to fuck them.

It goes beyond online shitposters too, the disgraced doctor paul mchugh who's the medical starlet of anti-trans proponents not only argues against transition but for the idea that pedophiles can't help themselves and shouldn't face legal repercussions and defends pedophiles in religious institutions.

>>8600123
ormones are dirt-cheap, anon. Without insurance, I pay about ten bucks a month. WITH insurance, I pay ten bucks for about a half-year's suppl

how? I agree theyre cheap but not that cheap!
>>8603678

>>8608815
>it's all a CONSPIRACY AGENDA to degenerate society!
oh boy

>>8604436
>Isn't this a cure all. Isn't this what they wanted. Even one suicide means it's not a viable process.
Make sure to tell all those cancer patients theyre wrong for wanting treatment. Its not what they want its not a cure. The big nad medical industrys just taking advantage of them

>>8611357
>implying there are no differences between the sexes pre-puberty

>>8604436
>even one suicide means it doesn't work
>pretending to be retarded

>>8611583
No, just asking.

>>8611583
What is there to feel dysphoric about?

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>>8611556

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>>8614420

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>>8614427

>>8614427
>Ella, who split from the child's father several years ago

Boom, there it is

>>8614420
>>8614427
>>8614431
>Sertii will defend this

>>8600011
Most definitely. I'm FULLY aware this is an illness. But I'm a functional human being with a mental illness, so what? As long as I have a job and pay taxes, I'd rather nobody care my brain is on backwards. And for the second part, who cares what other people do to make their money. I'll do me, they do they.

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>>8614439
That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. The issue people that don't support the LGBT agenda has is they don't want it to be normalized or even celebrated. Pic related.

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>>8600123
Can you post links to those studies? I need the ammo to argue around.

>>8614453
>>8614439
Do you want this to be normalized, though?

>>8614453
>>8614489
>Do you want this to be normalized, though?
Not really. Something that pertains to up 5% of the population has no reason to be popularized. Just accepted that it exists, just not extremely demonized. That's it.

>>8614509
I see.

You think, then, that the media and tumblrinas push represent you properly? Or is that just a LOT of virtue signaling to appease heterosexual people, mostly?

>>8614530
I don't fucking know, man. One one hand, I like that they're even talking about LGBTQ, on the other hand who the fuck cares? If anything, like I said before it's up to 5% of the population, and in the end it's half that who cares, and half that who has a voice to care. And split that even further, more than half that who even cares about politics or what the media says.

Use your brain, does it really matter what <0.5% of us have to say?

>>8614489
I don't care what people do to themselves or what they do in private. I do not think minors should be able to transition, as they are dumb kids. Sure they will be cuter if you start them young, but people change, and most of us are very different people than we were at age 12.

Hey, skeptic here, I'll just piggy-back on OP's post rather than make a new thread.

I find the more compelling question is: Are trans "women" really just men who are trapped in pathological self-loathing because of their feminine features? I think this is what the /pol/ types are suggesting with their "trans is mental illness" slogan.

I don't expect an honest consideration of the truth of this opinion, since all it has the potential to do is degrade the quality of life of trans women.

But... have you ever considered that you're self-loathing, feminine men living a life of wish fulfillment? Sometimes when I wander into your spaces and listen to you talk, I can't tell the difference between you and robo/frog posters. Nobody has a more toxic perception of masculinity than trans women.

>>8614548
I see.

Thanks for sharing, bruva.

>>8614431
>>8614427
>>8614420
Wow. Look another concerned citizen that worries about the route this take society. God it's almost like forcing people to play pretend has conequences unforeseen.

>>8614592
>>8614573

Look closely: the real problem is this particular kind of cock-mongler woman who craves the attention, and gets it by virtual-signaling whatever is the current sad puppy AKA Islam and LGBT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxjtk3eA8M

Now I'm starting to wonder if they've ever even talked with the people they're trying to "protect".

>>8614568
A minority of trans women are effeminate gay males in that sense, HSTS MTFs.

The majority are AGP MtFs, males who aren't naturally more effeminate than other males but whose heterosexuality has been flipped so that they want to be the woman themselves instead of having her.

>>8614634
What if I fantasize about being a woman sexually, but only am attractive to women?

>>8614697
AGPs are usually lesbian or bisexual but can be straight or ace.

>>8614435
>children experimenting while they are young is wrong and they should be forced to follow strict gender roles

>>8614761
>>8614634
stop forcing your confirmation bias blanchardfag

>>8600011
In a clinical sense yes: you don't cure those people who have innate compulsions, you make sure you do everything in your power to have them lead happy and fulfilling lives.

People with gender dysphoria have a need to express themselves as the opposite sex, let them, or watch them lose the will to live.

Medicine is founded on health and will view humans who alter their lifestyle that will result in bad health as an illness.

This all sounds negative, but it's not. It essentially boils down to being different and people hating you for it.

>>8600011
It's a mental disorder that I'm not interested in curing because it also ascribes to a number of fetishes I have, but transitioning makes me less desireable to a partner essentially outting me in chastity, another one of my fetishes.

>>8611580
Thanks for posting this. Needed some ammo for my "2017 leftists lack intellectual reasoning" argument I have with a good friend. We both used to be on the same side but he failed to notice how batshit insane the left became in the 10 years since. Comparing an unmeasurable, non-life-threatening thing to cancer is a prime example of the religious-like furvor i needed to make my point. Thanks!

>>8604436

>So cutting off your dick and self mutilation isn't a form of mental illness. Okay.

That's a fucking meme by this point

lolz

Get real lmao

>>8616841
>confirmation bias
???

>>8612818
>What is there to feel dysphoric about?
(pre-puberty)(MtF perspective)
Having a dick and balls, being treated as a boy instead of a girl, knowing that you'll grow up to be a man instead of a woman, getting bullied for GNC behavior.