Can we have a thread about the psychological aspect of male homosexuality?

>>8423282
Can you briefly explain it to a layman? If it's believable it could become board ideology, like Blanchard has for the trannies.

>>8423329
Ok. I'll try. Long post
1/2

Bear in mind early Jungians considered these CAUSES of homosexuality rather than EFFECTS, they didn't think homosexuality was genetic. However you can still read these as effects and the theories hold up. Reading it did convince me though that at least some homosexuality is not genetic as there were many case studies of people completing losing interest in people of the opposite gender after some great psychological change in their life.

*Anima Possession:
Basically there is a part of the psyche called the Anima. It's not something you identify as but something you see as something "inside me which sometimes acts up". It's generally associated with high emotions, being whimsical, and turning everything into drama. The image of a fairy is a common representation of it. In hetrosexual men they 'project' their anima onto women. Basically the anima sort of serves as a yard stick for measuring femininity.

With homsexuals they do not project onto the anima but identify with it. This explains a lot of my own nature to me. I cannot explain this very well as the Anima is a very complex concept. If you heard the term "inner woman" that's a dumbed down version of it.

You can think of being a tranny as an extreme form of anima-identifaction, they are basically looking inside their mind for the image of the ideal woman and trying to become that rather than seek it out in the physical word. I won't say anymore on trannies since my interest is not in them.

*Puerility: Jung characterizes male homosexuals as being stunted children, think Peter Pan. You could say that we take our relationship with our men as being an extension of playing with other boys when we were young. Obession with anime kind of makes sense from this.
If you have any other questions I'll be happy to work with them.

>>8423486
*Mother archtype: Basically the idea that male homosexuals tended to be heavily influenced by their mother (can be a negative or positive way) and a huge part of their development is based on responding to it. This is not limited to their physical mother but to any mother figure including fictional ones. For hetrosexuals they would be looking to their father or father-like figures (either real or in stories). The result is effiminzation.

*Images of samness: Basically hetrosexual relationships are conceived as contrasting opposites "I am a man. I man masculine. You are a woman, the opposite, femine)" Homosexuals don't do this because they see their partner as the same, rather than an opposite "We are both boys". You can think of self-cest as an extreme manifestion of it. Jung puts this obsession with sameness as extending way beyond just sex. We are fascinated by the idea of 2 same things in any sort of relationship.

---
Over all these are generally negative descriptions of homosexuality, which is why Jung's theories never caught on in the community. I view that as a superficial reading. One positive thing Jung mentions is that a strong affinity with younger boys (the Puerility thing) means gay men make good teachers of children, he cites the ancient Romans and Greeks.

Apart from that a strong relationship with the Anima and the Mother archtype has certain positive effects (not mentioned in the book). For instance the Anima is associated with feelings of spirituality and art. I love the Anima concept really, I've had fantastic personal development trying to examine or communicate with my own. To give an example, I had a dream in which a child version of myself explained why I am attracted to certain men.

>>8423494
>I had a dream in which a child version of myself explained why I am attracted to certain men.
Go on

Great thread

> You can think of being a tranny as an extreme form of anima-identifaction, they are basically looking inside their mind for the image of the ideal woman
"Tranny" (mtf) here, I believe it. Thread is slow so I'll share my story.
I had an absent father and emotionally-unavailable mother. No way I could identify with my dad (as is healthy for boys) since he was detached with reality and abusive so by default I identified with my mom more, she was "just" withdrawn but not insane in comparison. But she was incapable of intimacy or bonding (RAD I think or whatever it's called), so she was never nurturing (neither was my dad obviously) It was like growing up in an emotional vacuum. I think my teen relationships with girls were me trying to find that nurturance in others, ands since that didn't work I started identifying as a woman to find that female nurturance within myself, which probably won't work either.
I don't think I'm truetrans. I'll try to learn to nurture myself and hopefully the female-identification will dissipate. It already mostly has just while writing this.

You're right about Anima-identification, I keep going on about the importance of soul and feelings and the "vibes" of different things, and I think that's just tryhard pseudo-self-nurturance.

Pseudonurturance could explain why trannies are so into anime (they develop affection towards the characters and simultaneously identify with them), why they're codependent, obsessed with "passing", and why there are trans women with male personalities. Maybe autogynephilia is just confusing love with lust and then projecting lust onto themselves. Who knows.

Anyway, how do you communicate with your Anima?

>>8423282
>Jung
Literally pseudoscience. He also believed your dreams reflected your inner desires and all other kinds of bullshit.

>>8424969
this

>>8424965
> emotional vacuum
My family had the same thing. Both parents were cold. They came from divorced, cold homes also. I'm FTM (might be FTMTNb or some gay shit).

>>8424969
Dreams don't reflect inner desires? Not even a little?

>>8424969
According to who? Any respectable college psychological deparment is going to discuss Jung's theories.

Dreams as inner desires is really more of Freud, he basically sees dreams as a dumping ground for desires you won't admit to yourself consciously. Jung's dream theory is much broader than just what you desire or are ashamed of. It's the point where the subconscious and conscious communicate.

Here's some perspective for you. In REM sleep you have 8-10 dreams a night every single day of your life, some of them last hours, even if you don't remember more than a few moments. And recent studies suggest dreams happen even outside REM sleep. That's 1/3 of your life where your brain is active. Why are you so dismissive of what your own brain thinks about?


>>8424302
I am attracted to boys aged 13-20 who are slightly effiminate boys. Link for example. The child explained that I want my partner to be effiminate as a counter balance against myself, so I can be masculine. His exact words were "Someone needs to be the vagina". There were a lot of other things I learned about myself in that dream. It was very elaborate and the descriptions were very presicious. Characters used words like "psychology" or "subconscious". The ending of the dream came with a warning about the danger of getting lost inside my head processing all this information.

>>8425066
I had a dream I was a tranny so obviously its not true :^)......right? RIGHT?!

>>8425066
They totally can, I don't think that everything you dream has some deep meaning since we have so much trash information in our heads but I've definitely had dreams connected with some desire I have.
>that dream where I imagined oneitis naked with some pretty scary detail, even though I consciously am attracted to her only platonically
>Those infrequent dreams where I'm a character in a Dark Souls esque videogame which reflect that autistic dream I have of making a fantasy game

I've probably had gay dreams too but just can't remember any

>>8424965
>Anyway, how do you communicate with your Anima?

First a bit of geography. "You" (the Ego) is kind of in the conscious part of your mind, the Anima is deep in the subconscious. The road block between you two is the Shadow which is a refuge for all your shame, regret, guilt, as well as all the secret ambitions and dreams about what you wish you could be.

The classic myth is that a knight must overcome a monster first in order to meet the princess. Your the knight, the monster is your shadow, Anima is the princess.

I found two ways of meeting her.

The first is to identify real or fictional women (say Jap cartoons) your Anima likes to project onto. BTW if you have a waifu that's just your Anima projecting onto the character, the Anima is your yardstick for the ideal woman. If you can catch yourself projecting you'll briefly encounter her. You'll also get a clue for what her personality is like based on the symbols she likes to represent herself with. For me Harme Nui was something she liked. Mythology that involves Anima-like figures is specially useful: princesses in distress and mermaids are two of her favorite symbols. Theology that focuses on "union with the divine" or philosophy that celebrates passion and instincts (say Nietzsche and his Dionysus) invoke her.

The second is in dreams. Out of all the major psychic organs the Anima has the most potency in dreams, since she is the most subconscious. Anima generally takes the form of a beautiful women in dreams, usually a younger child. Just get in the habit of paying attention to your dreams. There was a character in my dream who recurred several times, later I realized that was her.

With straight people she operates unseen. Jung rarely met his own Anima. We might be different.

If you want to be less tranny-like you need to both establish your identity as masculine and your Anima needs something femme project into otherwise she'll try to possess you. Just remember that she's your friend.

>>8425167
I've already trans'd, so you can't troll me, pham.

>>8425164
>According to who? Any respectable college psychological deparment is going to discuss Jung's theories.
In an historical context, not seriously. Early psychology is now recognized for the quakery it is.

>>8425288
They still hand out degrees in analytical/jungian psychology you know?

>>8425322
Who is "they"?

Psychoanalysis is not based on science. It's based on speculation and downright making shit up.

>>8425252
That hit home a little hard. I had a dream once I fell into a theatre, the lights were dim. I think it was a Vaudeville house. I had an aisle seat. I met a beautiful woman there and we hit it off. We snuck off and made out or something in a closet, when she took me by the cuff through another door.

>>8425360
It led to an airport control tower, a little one. I could see two runways and some stuff on the shelves and there were a few other rooms. I got the impression that this was a giant house. Rooms full of the coolest shit. It was pretty fun. I talked to her briefly in the theatre but I wasn't at the rem's to fully recall but at the time when we talked I could understand her when it really came out garbled. She was happy to see me. Her voice soft. She knew where the magic closet is. I did spend some time in there. If I fucked her I don't remember it, but I certainly bonded with her and she was chatty. No woman wins me over without being kind and speakable. I did get the impression she was very knowledgeable and precise in what she said. I think we did fuck, because I remember feeling bewildered at the time all this shit happened.

>>8425352
Science is "Science, any system of knowledge that is concerned with the physical world and its phenomena and that entails unbiased observations and systematic experimentation" Psychoanalysis studies a physical part of the world called the mind and Jung's method is rigidly systematic.

The fact that it doesn't involve a calculator doesn't mean it's not science.

I'm going to trust the universities to sort out the frauds from the real scientists more so than so random anon on 4chan.

>>8425360
Sounds like an Anima figure. In dreams they tend to be very familiar with the lay of the land because that's really their domain so they fufill the role of a guide. Usually they lead you to some sort of treasure or enchanted place. In one of my dreams the Anima took the form of a beautiful woman with blond hair. I was a mercenary and she knew the secret route into the enemies base. There was a very beautiful moment of her hair flowing the wind while pointing towards the door to the enemy general.

I'll elborate by going through the mermaid metaphor. Water is a standard symbol for the unconscious, deeper water means deeper unconscious. Your conscious mind can't see into the bottem, only the surface level. If you tried to reach the bottem yourself you would drown and never come back up (which means you'd go insane because your lost in your head all day). The Anima is the mermaid, she is suited to live in the water so she navigates the subconscious for you. Usually in the myths the mermaid gives the guy some sort of treasure or pearl, which represents the inner knowledge the unconscious has. There is also a cautionary bit about how the mermaid will suffer if she leaves the ocean for too long, which basically is a warning about trying to bring your Anima too far away from the subconscious. The dream world is her ocean.

>>8425434
>The fact that it doesn't involve a calculator doesn't mean it's not science.
No, the fact that it doesn't use the scientific method means it's not science.

>I'm going to trust the universities to sort out the frauds from the real scientists
Which they've already done. Nearly every University emphasizes some sort of cognitive-biological synthesis with an emphasis on neurobiology and experimental data.

>>8425434
You're one step above a hotline psychic.

>>8423486
That's stupid. I don't identify with what you call the anima. I'm not obsessed by anime. Sure there is a joyous, innocent, child-like quality to gay relationships, but there's also seriousness and maturity in it.
All these meaningless theories can't do anything to prove homophilia is inherently wrong in some way or another, it's just not. To even agree to debate it is to concede far too much in the first place, so I won't do it.
>>8425164
So you're a pedophile ? What the hell ? Go away from this board, go to hell.

>>8425806
My boyfriend is nearly 30. I'm not attracted to children.

>All these meaningless theories can't do anything to prove homophilia is inherently wrong in some way or another

It's more like conceding that psychological development for gays isn't as inheritaly stable as it is for straight people. Statistics about depression support this.

Homosexual psychology inherently must be a deviation from heterosexual psychology since we conceptualize men and women very differently. The point of the thread is to discuss psychology that tries to explore these differences, it doesn't have to be Jung. If you know about neurology why don't you throw out some theories it has about homosexuality? This is an lgbt board after all.

>>8423494
>*Mother archtype: Basically the idea that male homosexuals tended to be heavily influenced by their mother (can be a negative or positive way) and a huge part of their development is based on responding to it. This is not limited to their physical mother but to any mother figure including fictional ones. For hetrosexuals they would be looking to their father or father-like figures (either real or in stories). The result is effiminzation.

I don't think that the sole close relationship with thr mother is what causes feminization.

>Be virtually asexual.
>Have a strong a dominant mother. Realized a while ago, that I was filling the place of my emotionally distant father, since my early childhood.
>I'm obviously messed up in the head.
>Emotionally attracted to men, but repulsed by having physical contact with them.
>Sexually attracted to women, but cannot get emotionally close to them.
> Realize that I must "break up" with my mother in order to be able to have a relationship.
>I'm a kind of aloof, but not effeminate.

>>8426939
You said you were attracted to boys aged 13-20
That makes you attracted to children.

>>8427276
Do you have anything to contribute about the psychology of gay people at all? Any personal stories? You harped on about neurology and than can't even produce a single bit of neurological data relevant to homosexuality when asked you about it. Now you're harping on about how being attracted to teenage boys makes you 'pedophile' on a board where half the men have masterbated to Link in another attempt to be dismissive.

>>8427024
That's very interesting. Would you say that your lack of a proper father figure emasculated you? Naturally if you do not accept masculinity you will start to veer into femininity. Or are you saying you reject both masculinity and femininity and can't conceptualize any sort of relationship between either gender?

I'll point out that concepts of masculinity can be learned through things other than your literal father, people that lacked positive parents (or even living parents) often end up turning to history or mythology to find parent figures. Alternatively they get into a relationship with someone that did have positive parents as a way of borrowing their strength. That's the relationship I have. I stronger connection with my mother but was divisive with my father, my boyfriend had a neglecting mother and a strong father figure so we balance each other out nicely.

http://www.cgjungpage.org/learn/articles/analytical-psychology/60-gay-men-and-the-anima-function

Neat article trying to conceptualize 60s gays fascination with Holleywood Divas as an expression of their Anima. It gets a little balled up in nonsense near the end but the basic premise is interesting.

>>8428346
There's a big difference between adult Link and child Link. How can you think you have any right to pathologize gay people ? Go away from here.

>>8425064
>I'm FTM (might be FTMTNb or some gay shit).
So I assume you're nontransitioning too (at least so far)?

>>8425252
I just bought the book, will read.
My dysphoria still hasn't come back.

>The second is in dreams. Out of all the major psychic organs the Anima has the most potency in dreams, since she is the most subconscious. Anima generally takes the form of a beautiful women in dreams, usually a younger child. Just get in the habit of paying attention to your dreams. There was a character in my dream who recurred several times, later I realized that was her.
I've never met her in a dream before, only projection onto real/fictional women as you said.

> the Anima is your yardstick for the ideal woman
If so then I have a pretty good idea of what she's like.

You first said that gays and trannies don't project their anima but identify with it, and that I need to learn to project my Anima, but I already do frequently. Is enmeshed in that projection the problem?

>>8428346
>That's very interesting. Would you say that your lack of a proper father figure emasculated you? Naturally if you do not accept masculinity you will start to veer into femininity. Or are you saying you reject both masculinity and femininity and can't conceptualize any sort of relationship between either gender?

Sorry for not clarifying, my father is distant to my mother, not so much to me.
My problem is that instead of going to a therapist, I filled the void left by my father in my mother's life. Something that caused all kinds of emotional unbalances. I feel perfectly masculine, I can easily approach women, my problem is that I can't get romantically involved with them.

>>8428407
Well I liked adult Link sexually. Child Link is cute but not sexy. So we're friends now =D

>>8428488
Well dysphoria is caused by going way too much into identification. Since you don't have that anymore it means you are distinguishing yourself from her. So what problem are you having?

Once you start distinguishing yourself from your Anima and she is comfortable living in the subconscious rather than encroaching on your identity it's basically a matter of going through normal development. You wouldn't need any homosexual specialized texts to tell you how to interact with her.

About the book; I basically treat it as a reference guide. I completly reject the authors own commentary. He's afraid of coming to terms that we as homosexuals/trannies have imbalanced psychological models and wants to casually dismiss the criticisms as 'homophobia' or 'stereotyping'.

>>8428580
From what I've read about development in heterosexuals everyone 'breaks up' with their mother eventually, however that is a very early step. Essentially it sounds like you do not have an abnormal condition but rather you still stuck on what is a normal step.

>>8427024
I am some type of asexual too and have a toxic mother. I get romantically attracted to men, but not sexually(though I am AAP) I feel some sexual vibes coming off certain women, but it usually vanishes when I have sex with them. I have no romantic feelings towards women, but I have one AGP type fantasy where I have a different type of female body that I fap to. Cis female, by the way. I wonder what Jung would say about me?

>>8429239
>Well dysphoria is caused by going way too much into identification. Since you don't have that anymore it means you are distinguishing yourself from her. So what problem are you having?
I mean that I already project all the time, while also identifying with her. This might be unique to trannies.

> Once you start distinguishing yourself from your Anima and she is comfortable living in the subconscious rather than encroaching on your identity
Sounds challenging but the theory feels really intuitive at least.

>He's afraid of coming to terms that we as homosexuals/trannies have imbalanced psychological models and wants to casually dismiss the criticisms as 'homophobia' or 'stereotyping'.
bretty sad

>>8429261
What I typed up is Jung's theories for homosexual men. It's relevant to male trannies because as far his theory is concerned they are just an a more extreme side of the spectrum. Women do not have an Anima, they have something else called an Animus. My knowledge of woman's psychology is limited and my knowledge of theories on asexuality and AGP is zero.

Three things I can tell you. Jung's wife wrote some very respectable psychological work. One of them deals with how women conceptualize men. The book is called Animus and Anima: Two Papers. Second any theories about AGP or asexuality are going to be contempoary. These were not major problems until the past couple of decades so no one would bother trying to address them. Third what little I know about Jungian psychology of women says that it is much more important than men that you have healthy relationships with the opposite gender.

>>8429330
>I mean that I already project all the time, while also identifying with her. This might be unique to trannies.

I can't say yes or no to that. The information I can give you is this. The Anima briefly assuming your identity is normal even for straight people, just less common and intense than us. There's also a function of feeling in a 'union' with her, it's a spirtual high. The thing about the mind in the Jungian theory is that there's multiple parts to it and several can be active at once. Proper psychological development involves both learning to distinguish them from each other so they can go through their own development paths and than re-uniting them to form a whole functioning human mind. Failed development is when you are at war with yourself or neglect parts of yourself.

>>8429842
>Third what little I know about Jungian psychology of women says that it is much more important than men that you have healthy relationships with the opposite gender.
What does this imply for trans lesbians?

>>8429854
A trans lebsian is a man that tries to assume the identity of a woman right?

No, if you are born a man you do not have a woman's psychology.

The classical interpretation is you are a tranny because you have an image of what a 'normal' or ideal member of the opposite gender is. Rather than looking for that outside of yourself you have assumed that image of your own identity and working to trying to become that. This image is called either an Anima or Animus and it comes prepackaged with a certain type of temperament. It craves an identity of it's own. And if you are not going to provide it one be finding someone of the opposite gender it can relate to (doesn't need to be a real thing. You can project it onto the Virgin Mary or something) than it will take your identity.

Alternatively your current identity could find itself so inept that your Animus/Anima is carrying your weight for you. Or your Anima/Animus has so much more potency that it's domain has gotten beyond it's normal boundaries.

Classical Jung is highly critical of being a tranny. There are heaps of new interpretations that are not critical though, I am not familiar with their details.

There is a limit to how much I can discuss Jungian approaches to trannies because I am simply not interested in studying it. If I read it's by chance.

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>>8423329
>ideology, like Blanchard has for the trannies.
>AGP
>ideology

>>8430009
I came across this Jungian interpretation a while ago but I don't know Jung so I didn't read it. Maybe it's what you said in a bit more depth?
http://www.crossdreamers.com/2017/02/waking-up-anima-jung-applied-to.html

>>8430023
It's not a description of the standard model. I don't think it's a very good model either.

The crude version is Anima=inner femminity, only men get these. Animus=inner masculinity, onl women get these.

Ego=your conscious identity (basically that voice that happens when you speak in your mind) everyone gets one of these.

You can think of the mind as a car, generally the Ego is in the drivers seat and the Anima or Animus is in the passenger seat. Trannies are people who swapped seats. Whoever is not in the drivers seat gets pushed into the subconscious.

I wouldn't know how to give an indepth explanation without knowing what to specify. There's more to it than just gender identity.

>word vomit: the thread
Classic quackery

>>8430016
That's what it is. An ideology.

Wasn't Jung himself a homophobe anyway ? I remember reading unkind words he supposedly said about homosexuals. I just can't find them back...

>>8430487

Everybody born in the XIX century would be considered an homophobe by today's standards.

>>8430508
And ? The truth doesn't change over time.
There were already gay activists back then.

>>8430487
Well I've read the book, which contains literally everything he ever said about them. He describes homosexuals psychological condition in mostly negative terms: effeminate, immature, overwhelmed by their mother, and bitchy. He also didn't think anyone was born gay. This isn't to say he hated gays just that he had a lot of negative things to say. From what I've read several of the therapists he personally trained were lesbians. He did think therapy could make people straight but also thought that it wasn't necessarily something you should do given that it might cause more problems than it solves. Sexual orientation is fluid in his model (not gender though). He didn't think there should be any laws against being gay because he thought it accomplished nothing but making it easy to black mail them.

For whatever reason homosexuals like his psychology best. So there's a lot of attempts to make his psychology be 'gay friendly', attack him for being homophobic, or play apologetics. Almost all modern jungians though say you are born gay.

>>8433438
>all modern jungians though say you are born gay.
Of course they do. Because they don't rely on scientific evidence.

>>8430023
>I think this observation is key: "Meanwhile, the autogynephilic transsexual gripped and embodied her animus, projecting her true self (her anima) on the women around her." I think this approach is much more to the point than Blanchard's theory, which basically says that the "autogynephile" projects the women out there onto "his" inner soul.

>But why is it, do you think, that those transgender kids who will come to love men are more likely to be able to embody their female side so early? And why would the gynephilic ones be more likely to suppress this side of them?
:^)