Jordan Peterson Thread

>>7951704
Foe

>>7951704
No, he's just regular old guy transphobe, except with his ideology and his degree to back it up.

>>7951716
/thread

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>>7951716
>transphobe
Is he though? He said there are only 2 genders but I haven't seen him be against mtf or ftm trans?
Also his degree is psychology so that doesn't actually back it up.
>>7951713
>>7951753
please explain more

I'm with >>7951781 here. In fact, I'm trans and agree with pretty much everything he has said.
>inb4 Uncle Tom

>>7951704
How about you stop making this thread, you stupid agp fuck? i'm fucking sick of you and this faggot, i hope canada fucking executes him.

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>>7951807
As far as I can tell he is only against PGP that aren't gendered i.e. Zim, Zir, zhe etc. So I think he is the traditional /lgbt/ ally and only against the nu-lgbt ie the people everyone says comes from Tumblr.
>>7951811
>stop making this thread
I've made it maybe 2 or 3 times over the course of a month, the discussion is interesting.
>agp fuck
pls no bully I didn't pick my lifestyle.
>I hope canada fucking executes him
You'll be glad that he is about 2 sternly written letters away from getting fired. If he didn't have tenyer he'd probably be gone already.

>>7951781
Insisting there are only two genders is transphobic, though it's not as bad as saying everyone with a dick is a man.

>>7951912
How?
If anything it's more accepting than normies if he adresses your gender based on how you present. Which I have seen no evidence to the contrary.

>>7951781
>please explain more
You said friend or ally, I corrected you. The term is friend or foe.

>>7951912
No it isn't. Trans people are still either male or female. Saying that isn't transphobic, you're just an idiot.

>>7951920
That's why I said it's "not as bad". If you're requiring presentation to acknowledge someone's gender identity, that is transphobic, even though it's better than some other forms of transphobia.

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>>7951922
Right but why is he a foe?
It's 4am and I have a bunch of tabs up.
>>7951925
This.
>>7951933
>requiring presentation
nigga do you think I complain that people don't know I'm AGP because I'm not presenting as female? What the fuck do you expect out of people?

>>7951933
You still haven't explained how saying "there is only 2 genders" is transphobic. "Transgender" literally means to become the opposite gender, so you're still either one or the other.

>>7951925
Some trans people are male or female. Some identify as other genders. If you outright reject the notion of non-binary genders, you are implicitly stating that you do not acknowledge the gender identities of some trans people.

>>7951954
No. Trans doesn't imply anything about opposites. All that it means is you are identifying as a gender that is different from the one you were assigned.

>>7951949
I don't think he's a foe. I don't know who this man is.

You misspoke and I was correcting you.

Since I'm here though give me your biased summary of him please

>>7951962
Right, a gender different than the one you were assigned... meaning the opposite one... because there's only 2 of them.

>>7951959
I consider people (trans or cis) to be male or female, so yeah, I guess I am. Must be all that internalized transphobia I keep hearing about.

>>7951978
You're relying on the unproven assumption that there are only two genders, and using circular reasoning to draw a false conclusion based on that.

>>7951704
The problem is, you're assuming this guy is going to be your friend just because you're not the exact type of tranny he hates, but that's not how it works. He doesn't actually care about MtFs or FtMs, he's a reactionary.

>>7952012
Oh please wise one, explain the great mystery as to why there are infinite genders when there are only 2 sexes and every single successful civilization has conformed to 2 sets of gender roles.

Sarcasm aside, stop enabling the transtrenders. They make the rest of us look bad.

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>>7951959
trans are either male or female there is no 3rd gender.
That's literally Jordan's argument.
>>7951968
>biased summary
firstly see above.
Secondly, he is a conservative, christian faggot who seems to be triggered harder than a /pol/tard about this whole zhi,zim,zher and other PGP's. I don't think he is wrong to think it's dumb. But I also think he has a hard on against 'neo-marxist' liberals and is riding this as an excuse to raise his power level to 9000.
tl:dr I don't care what happens to him frankly I'd be fine with PGP's everywhere because I want to see society as we know it completely collapse but that's just me.
>>7952030
He is a reactionary but when I said friend what I meant was some media outlets and various student groups etc paint him as 'transphobe' and I don't believe he is at all.
>>7952012
There are only two biological sexes. How many genders do you think there can be?

>>7952039
Plenty of civilizations have had a "third gender" though.

>>7952053
>trans are either male or female there is no 3rd gender.
>That's literally Jordan's argument.
And that's something I disagree with him on.

>>7952053
>There are only two biological sexes. How many genders do you think there can be?
Infinite, but for practical purposes they can be grouped into male, female, and other. Maybe if you want something more complex you can say there are 9 or so:
>low femininity, low masculinity
>low femininity, moderate masculinity
>low femininity, high masculinity
>moderate femininity, low masculinity
>moderate femininity, moderate masculinity
>moderate femininity, high masculinity
>high femininity, low masculinity
>high femininity, moderate masculinity
>high femininity, high masculinity
But all attempts to classify and define gender are just abstractions, since there's really no way to objectively define genders. As far as pronouns go, he, she, and they should be sufficient.

>>7951704
To understand his position you have see through the lens of a staunch individualist. He could not care less what you identify as but holds his right to free speech so tightly that he's not willing to compromise on his position in any hypothetical scenario. Honestly, when would he ever refer to any of his lecture attendees by their preferred pronouns? University professors are rarely even on a first name basis with their undergrad students. I think the jibe some members of the trans community has towards him is not due to his positions on free speech, with the associated repurcutions involved, but for the reason that he does not give a single iota of care about them

>>7952089
You literally just grouped those into feminine and masculine... I'm not sure you realize how delusional you are about the whole 2 genders thing.

>>7952102
Because we live in a culture that assumes masculinity and femininity are the only forms of genderedness, so we don't really have the language or framework to define what the other aspects of gender might be. What you should be taking away from this is that an increase in masculinity does not inherently lead to a decrease in femininity, or vice versa, so they're not really "opposites". Obviously someone who is low in both masculinity and femininity has their gender defined by *something else*, but we don't currently have a name for that *something else*.

>>7952053
Yeah, his obsession with what he labels as neo-marxist nihilism and how it's destroying western civilisation just makes me roll my eyes. He's got some emotional fueled bias to sort out there

>>7952089
>feminine
>masculine
wew see
>>7952102
>>7952098
>when would he ever refer to any of his lecture attendees by their preferred pronouns?
I don't think he'd have too professors now just point at people no-one remembers shit.
>>7952133
Everything he doesn't agree with just happens to be those two things it kinda makes him hard to take seriously when even undergrads know it's innacurate.

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>>7952053
cool I hate him now

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>>7952181
for which reason?
There's plenty if your going that way just curious.
Personally I hope this retarded law passes in Canada just so we can see what will happen.

>>7951704
It seems like his main objection is against compelled speech. Free speech is an ally of the /lgbt/ movement therefore Jordan is an ally of the /lgbt/ movement in the long run.

>>7952210
>Free speech is an ally of the /lgbt/ movement therefore Jordan is an ally of the /lgbt/ movement in the long run.
That's flawed reasoning. That's like saying the Democrats and the Republicans are allies because they both oppose school shootings. And it's not really "compelled speech", it's just saying that IF you choose to refer to someone by a pronoun, you must not intentionally use the wrong one. It's no more drastic than existing laws on things like hate speech or Holocaust denial.

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>>7952248
>Republicans
>doing anything to stop school shootings
kek

>>7951954
trans means beyond, dumb matt

>>7952039
>it's a tranny doesn't know about third genders like muxes, hijras or those in samoa episode
fucking read a book, god

>>7952133
>his obsession with what he labels as neo-marxist nihilism

Do you understand why he is so concerned with those concepts? The people who oppose his stance on speech won't even let him talk or discuss his views. They view all speech as nothing but power and a tool of oppression. Instead of trying to have a dialogue they attempt to silence to further their ideological goals.

I know people will joke about spooks but that is exactly the case with these ideologues, they are possessed. They cant see a person who has genuine concern for people and only see an enemy that wants to oppress a group they feel is in need of defense. Those are the tools of marxists and later the post-modernists. They divide the world into those two groups and label the oppressor as the source of all the problems faced by the group labeled the oppressed. It does a disservice to people and fails to consider the individual, it forces people into groups that are of primary importance.

>>7952053
so you don't seem particularly keen on him yet you basically do free promotion for him on this board? if you're so interested in the impact of pgp's on society why don't you start a thread with that premise?

>>7952248
What if it's impossible to accurately refer to me by my preferred pronoun?

>>7952248
Hate speech should be permitted if the intent is clearly not to incite violence, in which case you could say reprobate things and not have to face any consequences.

So if the misgendering comes from someone who's not deliberately trying to offend or provoque you, but holds a different opinion and is merely expressing it by misgendering you, then i don't see anything wrong.

I do understand however the reason why people want to implement this fascistic policies in the sense that if an entire society is against your own concept of self identity then it becomes very psychologically damaging. So i guess it's a matter of considering laws as something collective or individual. So if you consider it individual, then yes, what the fuck is me, ONE person misgendering going to do, but if it's a cultural phenomenon then i could understand the issue were everyone stomps on you and collective laws would try to stop that.

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>>7952262
ah yes the third genders they make up in backwards non-Western Countries so they can deny rights to entire groups of people.
Hijaras usually become prostitutes because they are ousted by mainstream society. I wrote a paper on it last year I'm well aware of how fucked up the notion truly is.
>>7952278
>theories developed before he was even born are destroying modern society
the man is a reactionary christ-cuck conservative, he bases his academic beliefs on his emotional responses far too much.

>>7952278
neo marxists are right though in that ideologies are competing forces trying to destroy each other. The thing is that a dialogue is a more productive force of destruction in that it's more likely to produce truth, whereas opression tactics (non-discursive) are more likely to give free reign to stupidity.

I think their emphasis on opression as means of establishing narratives comes from an insecurity in their arguments. But perhaps it's not even insecurity but the fact that they can't prove moral values or reformulations of concepts (concepts are human creations and therefore can't be objectively proven; say gender, it's an empty word until someone redefines it as something else)

So basically if you want to change subjective cultural standards such as morals and word definitions it's necessary to opress and use non-rational discourse to change public perception because they're not rational things by nature.

>>7952298
What exactly are the consequences of those theories? Are those theories still affecting us today?

>>7952298
Yes, what was written in the past still effects the present and the future. The last time I was in a college campus was a decade ago but I can still remember my professors trying to drill marx into my head and force me to divide the world into the evil rich oppressor and the victimized oppressed. I can't imagine it has gotten better.

Post-modernist thought is just window dressing applied to marxist thought. It seeks to deconstruct and undermine traditional western structures. This has a destabilizing effect. You can argue positives and negatives but you can't say it has had no effect.

To those who value a high degree of order this feels like an assault on the very foundation of culture and identity.

>>7952287
Could you provide an example of such a situation?

>>7952320
>neo marxists are right though in that ideologies are competing forces trying to destroy each other.
Not at all true. Neo-reactionary conservatives tend not to have read Jaques Derrida, Micheal Foucault and Jurgen Habermas so it's easy to sell them the idea that they are somehow theorizing end days for capitalist society.
>>7952321
Those theories are nothing more than discourse they have never been enacted. It's simply a matter of considering alternate viewpoints to gain a greater understanding.
>>7952329
Of course it does but he's acting like these theorists are responsible for the PGP's and the 'SJWs' when there is no way to link them.

>>7952254
I said they oppose them, not that they actually do anything about it.

>>7952293
I think allowing misgendering as a difference of opinion is a basic precedent. Next thing you know we'll be seeing people fighting for "opinions" like "gays aren't people" or "women shouldn't have rights".

>>7952298
>Hijaras usually become prostitutes because they are ousted by mainstream society.
Yeah, like that sort of thing isn't common among Western trans people.

>>7952362
Western trans people have rights. You ignored my point that Hiraja's have to become prostitutes because they are denied legitimacy.

>>7952329
You do know that less than 1% of the population owns 50% of the worlds resources right?

If you can't see a system designed to trample on the poor and powerless then you're insane. We should be praising this people for acting as balancing forces at the very least.

And what destabilizing effect are you even talking about? Don't you think that a world of non-thinking idiots deserves to be destabilized?

Culture is a myth; the only cultures worth a shit were cultivated by the elites of each country-- popular culture at it's very core is normalizing, religious, and brutal. For a bunch of academic marxists to challenge this primitive normie culture is nothing but an improvement on society.

I don't know what you're talking about.

>>7952372
Their lack of rights is due to their third world status, not due to them being third gender. Trans people frequently becoming prostitutes however is not exclusive to the third world.

>>7952350
Yea, like..
My gender is changing on a dime like every 45s or so...
It doesn't seem like anybody can ever get it right and honestly it kinda pisses me off

>>7952356
>Of course it does but he's acting like these theorists are responsible for the PGP's and the 'SJWs' when there is no way to link them.

The SJW and others like them are attempting to enforce equality of outcome, that comes directly from marx. Their tactics of dividing the world into oppressor and oppressed comes from marx. Take any 3rd wave feminist and replace patriarchy with bourgeoisie and women with working class and you have almost the exact same argument. The link is very clear and the goals are the same

>>7952379
There will always be inequality, there will always be those who have more and those who have less. That is how a hierarchy works. Should we work to improve the conditions of those on the bottom, sure, do I resent those who are on the top, no.

> Don't you think that a world of non-thinking idiots deserves to be destabilized?
No, I think the world requires a certain degree of order. You are correct in your assessment of brutality. Nature is brutal and some get the shit end of the stick. While we can work to improve conditions we can not construct a utopia. Some will suffer, always. It is better than the chaos that would result in the destruction of the system

>>7951704
All trannies should be killed.
Conform to normalcy or kill yourselves.

>>7952350
>>7952394
P-pls respond

>>7951962
What do you think the "trans" prefix even means? Trans means across or on the other side of. Being transgender means your gender identity is on the other side of gender from your physical sex.. Cis means the opposite, on the same side. Meaning if you're cisgender your gender idenity is on the same side as your physical sex.

For example, Transcaucasia and Ciscaucasia. Transcaucasia is the area across the Caucasus mountains (seem from the Russian perspective) and Ciscaucasia is the area on the Russian side.

>>7952395
Marx was more about equality of opportunity rather than equality of outcome. The problem he had with 19th century industrial capitalism was not that it rewarded hard work and punished laziness, but in fact the opposite - he perceived that even in countries that lacked or had abolished a formal class system, capitalism did not offer sufficient class mobility for the working class to truly determine their own identity. The working class were not a user, but rather than which was used by others, and consenting to being used was the only realistic way that they could survive. Ultimately, in capitalist society, according to Marx, people DID NOT succeed or fail solely on their own merits, but their level of success was heavily affected by the class they were born into, and ultimately, it meant that the working class did not perceive their hard work as providing benefit to them. Thus, Marx called for a classless society in which everyone succeeded or failed only on their own merits.

Also, there really isn't any such thing as third wave feminism. Third wave is really just post-second wave; the "waves" are defined by a unifying ideal, and there is no unifying ideal behind the so-called "third wave", unless you consider "feminism is everything and nothing" to be a meaningful ideal. The movement hasn't really recovered from the disorder resulting from the collapse of the second wave, and furthermore, it became a part of popular culture around this time, which means you have more people than ever before identifying as feminists and extending it with their own ideas, but without any real ideological authority leading the movement and giving it solid meaning.

>>7952459
Why? Who's to define what is normalcy?

>>7954628
That's why I specified INTENTIONAL misgendering. It's not that misgendering is some unforgivable sin, but rather than doing it obviously on purpose doesn't have any positive use.

>>7954733
We're having trouble counting past two huh?
Hi Valve.

>>7952089
>Plenty of civilizations have had a "third gender" though.

And all of those "third genders" are just somewhere in the middle of the scale of traditional femininity vs traditional masculinity. That's not a third gender. The two genders are male and female. Being somewhere between the stereotypical ends, whether mentally, socially, physically, etc, does not make you a third gender, it makes you a more feminine than average man or a more masculine than average woman.

A "third gender" would exist entirely outside of the spectrum. It'd be some sort of triangle with the ends being male, female, and the 3rd gender.

>>7954745
Whats the point of this law if it can't get someone to appropriately refer to me...

Also, couldn't Peterson just claim it was unintentional every time?

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>>7954715
Being "across" doesn't mean there's only two options. Take a look at pic related: A and C are both across the river from B, even though they're different places. In much the same way, being trans is defined by identifying as a gender suffifciently different from the one assigned to you at birth, it doesn't have to be the sole notional "opposite" though.

>>7951959
There are no other genders. If anything he is Tumblridiotphobic and so am I. Get the fuck out with your bull shit.

>>7952089
>plenty of civilizations have had a "third gender"
Yes, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, these parts of the world viewed MtF's as a third gender.
But even if they did believe in some completely third gender, who gives a fuck? They believed in plenty of retarded shit and still do!

>>7954759
Nope, male and female are genders, not just "gender components", what would you call someone who is equal parts male and female?

>>7954769
It's basically up to the courts to figure out if it's intentional or not. As with many laws, where claiming breaking the law was unintentional can get you a lighter sentence, eventually it's hard to keep fooling people, they'll note that you "accidentally" did the same thing several times before and become suspicious. If it is someone who changes their gender on a daily basis, it would be harder to make a case that people misgendering them are doing so intentionally (though honestly I would suggest using they/them as a universal gender pronoun whenever you're not sure, I'd say it's only "misgendering" if the person identifies as male and is referred to with she/her or vice versa).

>>7954780
>There are no other genders
Prove it.

>>7954812
So then it's pointless...
At the end of the day I am still oppressed, if anything this law doesn't go nearly far enough.

>>7954812
>Nope, male and female are genders, not just "gender components", what would you call someone who is equal parts male and female?


Is it physical? Then they're intersex if it's natural. Some sort of trans person if not. Is it their personality? They're just a feminine male or masculine female. Is it their internal sense of gender identity? Doesn't exist, your gender identity can only be male or female. It's doesn't always match your birth sex but it can't be anything other than male or female. If someone truly claims to have a gender identity somewhere inbetween male and female, then they're either a lying tumblr snowflake or someone confusing their personality with their gender identity (which is unfortunately common).

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>>7952381
Wrong. The Goverment declared them third gender in order to deny them rights.
Again do some academic research on this.
>>7952395
>equality of outcome
Marx never posited this
More over 'SJW's' don't follow Marx anyway.
>>7954751
/pol/ack please leave, you where presented with arguments and rather than engage in the discourse you tucked your tail and turned shitposter.
>>7954861
Why are you opressed? Because we don't have to call you zi? Please explain.
>>7954865
Gender Identity
Gender expression
This law sees them as seperate hence you could be an a-sexual, bi-sexual (yes that makes no sense) but there you go.

>>7951925
You're confusing biological sex with gender. Please learn something and try again

>>7954820
There is no substantial proof of a third gender as it has to do with the mind. Trans people have been proven real. You are making the positive claim so bring me some third gender brain scans. Show me a third pair of functional genitals. I said functional and third! Not intersex, which is a usually dysfunctional combo of the two existing ones.

>>7954861
Go the fuck back to Tumblr. You wouldn't know oppression if it stuck a hot poker up your ass or threw you off a roof.

>>7955002
They follow bell hooks often enough and she was pretty down with Marx if I remember right.

>>7955032
Just made yourself look more like an idiot. If it was just about physical sex then they wouldn't be down with trans either.

Please stop being unbearably condescending because it is super feminist.

>>7955067
>Bell Hooks
Sargon please go and don't come back till you can seperate TERF's, Interesectional Feminists,and Rad-Fems from the rest.

>>7954865
>your gender identity can only be male or female. It's doesn't always match your birth sex but it can't be anything other than male or female. If someone truly claims to have a gender identity somewhere inbetween male and female, then they're either a lying tumblr snowflake or someone confusing their personality with their gender identity (which is unfortunately common).
Doesn't sound very reasonable to me desu.

>>7955002
>Wrong. The Goverment declared them third gender in order to deny them rights.
They had the cultural concept of third gender before "legal gender" and "legal rights" were concepts that had any formal existence.

>This law sees them as seperate hence you could be an a-sexual, bi-sexual (yes that makes no sense) but there you go.
Except both of those terms are SEXUAL ORIENTATION, not gender identity OR gender expression.

>>7951704
Considering that he is against restricted speech.
Considering that restricted speech is restricted freedom.
Considering that such restrictions could apply to us as well.

He's certainly not our foe.

>>7957376
Freedom is not inherently good. Certain types of freedom are good, others are not.

>>7952126

>Because we live in a culture that assumes masculinity and femininity are the only forms of genderedness, so we don't really have the language or framework to define what the other aspects of gender might be

those are the baseline assumptions because that's what we observe in nature and our psychology and language have evolved around that concept. if we have no way of observing, measuring, or even describing a phenomenon, how do we know it exists?

>>7957392
Would you say the same about authoritarianism?

>>7951704
He's a meme, yet another leech pandering to the rabid anti-SJW crowd. I find it funny how so many of them go on and on about how academia is corrupt and worthless yet they're more than happy to constantly tout Peterson's academic credentials, because he agrees with them.

>>7957392
freedom of speech and association are good though

>>7960804
Authoritarianism in certain areas of government can be good, yes. Even rule of law can be considered a form of authoritarianism.

>>7961456
Not inherently, some forms of speech and association cause more harm than good. The main reason many treat those freedoms as fundamental rights is that we really don't have a reliable way to protect "good" speech while forbidding "bad" speech.

>>7951704
He only wanted to say, that if using the correct pronoun for a person is respect, then if the use of that pronoun is forced by law, it is no longer respect because people only use it for fear of consequence- leading the lgbt to live in a lie and the 99% to be essentially denied being able to call the 1% names. That's what I think it comes down to. Real shame he's being painted into some trans hater.