why do people believe agp can't be present before puberty

>>7835479
>everyone has autism

weeeeelll......

>>7835491
well yeah, it was a study on the comorbidity of autism and transsexualism in children and teenagers

>>7835479
Damn I remember having AGP style fantasies pre-puberty and I'm also a sperg, does this mean I'm not trans?

>>7835623
no, you're probably trans
most of the kids in that group desisted because at least historically most children referred for potential transsexualism desist*, but by adolescence it's considered permamemt
*good luck getting an unbiased answer as to why and the relevance of it in current practice

>>7835479

Why do people think AGPs can't be gender nonconforming or have dysphoria before puberty?

>>7835479
All of those scream HSTS except the first one. He's unclear. How did the researcher decide that he "Seems to get aroused"? I bet he wasn't tested for "seeming to get aroused" by other stimuli. That reeks of false positive.

>>7844366
#1 and #2 fit the agp profile and will probably be agp their whole lives
#5 is a hsts girl
#3, #4, and #6 are most likely gay boys and #7 is a tomboy girl
as for #1's arousal, transvestic fetishism in prepubertal boys has been reported before, such as in richard green's cohort of feminine boys

>>7846622
Why is #2 the only one with IQ over 100? How can you tell she is AGP when all she does is crossdress?

#5 is only different from #3 through saying she wants to be a girl, so the assessment revealed nothing.

#4 isn't described as happy being a boy, just no explicit wish to be a girl, so she could be repressing.

>>7846657
>Why is #2 the only one with IQ over 100?
because it's a study of comorbidity between autism and childhood/adolescent gender dysphoria
autism is associated with low iq on conventional tests (the reality is a bit more complex and on some tests autistic people score equivalent to the general population), so the kids with both will have low iq
>How can you tell she is AGP when all she does is crossdress?
#2 explicitly was not interested in being a girl either at evaluation or followup, and his only feminine behaviour was transvestic (and 'obsessive', which is not uncommon in agp, especially autism-comorbid agp)
>#5 is only different from #3 through saying she wants to be a girl, so the assessment revealed nothing
#5 had a female gender identity at followup, #3 had a male one. it's established through other studies (with, i think, the same dutch group) that transsexualism becomes permanently established in potentially-hsts groups who were detected early at age 10-13, so two 12 year olds who were evaluated for potential transsexualism a few years back, one of who still experiences gender dysphoria and one of who's happy being a boy, can be assumed to remain such.
>#4 isn't described as happy being a boy, just no explicit wish to be a girl, so she could be repressing.
#4 is the most ambiguous one of the bunch, but children don't really 'repress' like that. especially not children in the borderline intellectual functioning range, but that's slightly besides the point. not liking your genitals as a toddler is not the same thing as not liking them when you're 10, and the 10-13 year old's conviction is more permanent than the toddler's.

>>7846681
Is there a similar study of non-autistic dysphoric children?

Transvestic feminine behavior doesn't have to be AGP.

>that transsexualism becomes permanently established in potentially-hsts groups who were detected early at age 10-13
Why is it at that age?

File: adolescent gender dysphoria and autism.png (92KB, 687x583px) Image search: [Google]

92KB, 687x583px

>>7846732
well, there are a *lot* of studies of dysphoric children -- but most of them these days aren't case studies. this study happens to include several cases of children diagnosed with gid or gid-nos (note, for significance, that all the desisters in the child cohort were diagnosed with gid-nos and the persister with gid) with descriptions of their behaviour and outcome, which is pretty unusual in recent studies.
>Why is it at that age?
good question! might be something involving hormonal changes that happen before full-blown puberty does. here's a download link for the study that found it:
http://booksc.org/book/11212690

>>7835479
I've always found it strange how I never had any AGP until like 10 or 11, and it started with porn exposure. Maybe it's because I never had a sister, but how come the girls at school didn't inspire me.

>>7846751
Are there more case studies where I can try spotting etiologies?

I wanted to see how well I could identify those nine, but there's so little information it would just be going off arousal and orientation for most.

#2 is asexual (AGP) and not transvestic (HSTS). Which one is she?

#4 is AGP. What would the therapy be?

#6 didn't have childhood GID and likes girls, but isn't transvestic. Is she still AGP? #8 is similar but with childhood GID. Is she a gynephilic HSTS?

#7 and #9 like girls (AAP) but no transvestic arousal (HSTS), unless AAPs don't crossdress like AGPs?

>>7846789
#2 is probably hsts. autism can massively reduce or increase sexual attraction, so she could easily just have very low levels of it -- she's also 13, so could well start experiencing more sexual attraction later in life (i'm also autistic and did not have a particularly formed sense of 'who i am attracted to' at 13, though was pretty clearly into girls)
#4's therapy would probably be to try and minimize his agp, he's intellectually disabled by iq and general treatment protocols for id people who are on the trans spectrum in some way (either transvestic or transsexual) is...not good
#6 is interesting. #6 (according to other writings about him later in the document) is a lot like the 'fell for the transgender meme' stereotype -- mild agp (note 'some sexual attraction while crossdressing'), extreme social isolation, concluded becoming a girl would cure this extreme social isolation without anything else implying transition would be a good idea. with that in mind, the assessment that he shouldn't transition was probably right.
#8 could be anything, really. i'd be inclined to assume she interpreted 'sexual arousal while crossdressing' in a very literal manner (see: autism, borderline intellectual functioning) and has other agp traits like crossdreaming but doesn't specifically engage in transvestic fetishism. transvestic fetishism is usually used as a proxy for agp, but isn't always a good one and is notably less good in younger agps.
>#7 and #9 like girls (AAP)
they're ftm. liking girls as a trans guy is hsts.

>>7846808
What are the protocols for ID trans people? What form would therapy of minimize AGP take?

I don't know much about the care for ID people but how is letting her crossdress any worse than letting a disabled person masturbate normally?

It says #4 didn't experience childhood GID, but if she's that disabled, how would they know?

>transvestic fetishism is usually used as a proxy for agp, but isn't always a good one and is notably less good in younger agps.
What are other ways of identifying AGP?

>they're ftm. liking girls as a trans guy is hsts.
kek, how did I forget that?

>>7846837
>What are the protocols for ID trans people?
they don't usually include transition, that's for sure
the subject of the infamous pimozide study was in the borderline intellectual disability range, which is iq 70-85 -- whether people diagnosed as being in that range (about 15% of the population has an iq in that range so it's usually not diagnosed) get to transition or not apparently depends entirely on the whims of the psychologists involved, i know of at least one case study where someone apparently did (a trans man who was diagnosed during a routine karyotype as having trisomy x, was iq-tested as a result, and was in the range) and you'll also see that at least one of the autistic teenagers in that range transitioned
for mild id (iq 50-70, so including the agp boy) or lower, you're pretty fucked
>What form would therapy of minimize AGP take?
i don't know much about therapy for paraphilias, aside from that it's shit and doesn't work. in an id teenager, it's likely to be aversive ("you'll be punished if you keep crossdressing") bullshit.
>I don't know much about the care for ID people but how is letting her crossdress any worse than letting a disabled person masturbate normally?
aside from the fact that some caregivers want to inhibit the latter as well, there's a stigma against things that go outside gender and sexuality norms in general and a stigma against disabled people doing those things in particular
disabled people (especially if also autistic) are likely to have unusual sexualities and caregivers hate addressing it
>It says #4 didn't experience childhood GID, but if she's that disabled, how would they know?
mild id is a disability, but all things considered it's not *as* disabling as it looks on the surface. mildly intellectually disabled people can keep down jobs, have long-term platonic and romantic relationships, live independently with support, etc. in society as it's set up today they often *don't*, but they *can*.
(continued)

>>7846837
>>7846859
>What are other ways of identifying AGP?
agp as a concept was formed when blanchard noticed that the concept that linked together all of his 'non-homosexual' trans women was, well, autogynephilia, and that even the ones who didn't crossdress engaged in the type of fantasy that these days is often called 'crossdreaming'. incorporating crossdreaming into diagnostic assessments alongside crossdressing is probably good protocol, though protocol that will never happen because somewhere down the line we jumped from 'make everyone have two years of therapy and rle before we give them hormones' to 'just fucking set up informed consent clinics everywhere' and ignored the very concept of a middle ground.

>>7846859
>get to transition or not apparently depends entirely on the whims of the psychologists involved,
How do they justify their decision? I assume that's in the paper if they were the subject of research.

>in an id teenager, it's likely to be aversive ("you'll be punished if you keep crossdressing") bullshit.
>and a stigma against disabled people doing those things in particular
>unusual sexualities and caregivers hate addressing it
Ugh. How do they justify that treatment of disabled people?

In fact, what is the justification for therapy for AGP at all unless it's a compulsive adult seeking therapy themselves?

>>7846868
In younger AGPs, how can it be spotted?
#1 in the OP in addition to crossdressing liked female bodies and breasts, but that's also consistent with being heterosexual, and jewelry and girls' toys, but that's also consistent with HSTS, desisting GID and everyday tomboy level GNC.

>>7846897
>How do they justify their decision? I assume that's in the paper if they were the subject of research.
they don't seem to mention it in the papers i've read so far, i assume they think it's self-evident whether someone is 'too disabled' or not. i don't have any papers saved on this topic right now so i'll have to go find some. generally it appears that the more self-sufficient an adult is the more transition is viewed as an option, so people in the borderline range (who are generally not diagnosed and live ordinary adult lives if borderline id is their only issue) are more likely to be denied if they have other comorbid conditions, like the subject of the pimozide paper.
for what it's worth, i've met a few trans people (all aap ftm) who i strongly suspect have borderline-range iqs, but for various reasons none have attempted to pursue medical transition yet. one has the option open if he wants it and only has financial barriers, though.
>Ugh. How do they justify that treatment of disabled people?
they don't think about it, really. most people don't see disabled adolescents/adults as actual adolescents/adults (and most people treat adolescents much younger than is reasonable, so it's a double whammy). also, a lot of people involved in caring for disabled people come from a religious conservative perspective because everyone else goes 'lol just abort them', so that colours people's views (this is less of a factor in the netherlands where the study was conducted, but you can see it loud and clear in a us context).
>In fact, what is the justification for therapy for AGP at all unless it's a compulsive adult seeking therapy themselves?
in a world with ken zucker...
>In younger AGPs, how can it be spotted?
if agp is suspected in someone transitioning under 25-30 or so, i'd think it would be reasonable to ask questions about crossdreaming -- "do you ever fantasize about being a woman/having a female body?" type questions

>>7846968
>one has the option open if he wants it and only has financial barriers, though.
How do you know he has the option open?

>most people don't see disabled adolescents/adults as actual adolescents/adults (and most people treat adolescents much younger than is reasonable, so it's a double whammy).
That's sad. Do you have first hand examples of that from being autistic? Although of course that's very different from being ID/borderline ID.

In what way are adolescents generally treated younger than is reasonable?

>in a world with ken zucker...
Has he said something about AGP specifically or is that just an example of what happens to GNC children?

>if agp is suspected in someone transitioning under 25-30 or so
What about signs for it in childhood, pre the point where AGP fantasies are explicitly sexual?

>>7846751
>#8
>got himself a SR surgery abroad
>himself
Come on, really?

>>7847111
checked
but yeah, transsexualism-related studies are stupid like that, especially ones more than a couple years old
i keep having to remind myself that, for instance, 'transsexual brothers' in studies on heritability is referring to mtf sisters

>>7847155
It's just plain confusing, too. Shouldn't scientific writing err on the side of precision at the cost of brevity? Like in that example, "male-to-female transsexual siblings" would be clearer. Or even "male-to-female transsexual brothers."

>>7851919
referring to trans people by their natal sex in the medical literature was established at a time where that was considered the precise, accurate terminology
it stuck

>>7851919
This is why 'mtf' and 'ftm' are such useful terms. It's all right there.