Transgender children documentary

>>7687955
I'm curious. Bump. Opinions?

>>7687990

Have you even had the time to watch it?

>>7687955
Bet it pushes the trutrans narrative and makes blockers out to be some huge deal.

>>7688005
I am now.

>>7688042
Not really. Ken Zucker is actually fine with blockers because most Endos say they're mostly benign. he's not fine with the "Gender Affirmative" model of care for trans people because he treated a lot of kids that had Gender Dysphoria stemming from non-transsexual issues. one of his colleagues studied a group of gender dysphoric boys and found that ~80% of GID children became regular gay men, 15% became straight men, and only about 5% actually continued on to become transsexuals.

>>7689189
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/the-end-of-the-desistance_b_8903690.html

>>7689210
huffington post lol
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html

>>7689189
>one of his colleagues studied a group of gender dysphoric boys and found that ~80% of GID children became regular gay men, 15% became straight men, and only about 5% actually continued on to become transsexuals.
But how many of the 95% do want to be girls really but just repressed or decided against transition? The correlation between being gay and being a gender nonconforming kid just does not add up.

Probably best to put them mostly on blockers just to be on the safe side, then let them make a decision later without being rushed.

>>7689286
>The correlation between being gay and being a gender nonconforming kid just does not add up.
A lot of gay kids are gender nonconforming lol. What exactly doesn't add up?
>But how many of the 95% do want to be girls really but just repressed or decided against transition?
They didn't go on to become transsexuals. So within the scope of the study, none?
>Probably best to put them mostly on blockers just to be on the safe side, then let them make a decision later without being rushed
That is what Dr. Zucker advocates for, yes.

>>7689319
>A lot of gay kids are gender nonconforming lol. What exactly doesn't add up?
Not so many that they would outnumber trans kids like that.

>They didn't go on to become transsexuals. So within the scope of the study, none?
So the 80% and 15% were wrong and overestimates since they include all the transsexuals who didn't transition by the end of the study or never did.

>That is what Dr. Zucker advocates for, yes.
It hurts inside that this will hopefully happen but only decades too late for me.

I didn't stand out as gender nonconforming anyway so even if it had been what happened already I would still be screwed.

>>7689361
>Not so many that they would outnumber trans kids like that.
~1.6% of people are homosexual, 0.003% of people are Transsexual. Gays have three orders of magnitude on trans.
>So the 80% and 15% were wrong and overestimates since they include all the transsexuals who didn't transition by the end of the study or never did.
They aren't estimates. They're data. The hypothetical non-transitioning transsexual doesn't have a lot of data supporting it in this case.
>I didn't stand out as gender nonconforming anyway so even if it had been what happened already I would still be screwed.
My condolences, friend.

>>7689189
>>7689361

he falsified the data by putting gender nonconforming kids who didn't meet the dsm criteria for GD as trans.

He's been dismissed in disgrace from his positions and is hardly trustworthy.


Also, said he opposes blockers/antiandrogens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfZchGhq_40

from our less fortunate sisters. just don't judge the title until you've finished watching the entire documentary.

>>7690922
Just give me one spoiler, do they end up better of or worse off than me?
t. nontransitioner

>>7689210
>>7689228
>>7689286
there's one thing a lot of people overlook during the desistence debate, even though blanchard will talk to you at length about it (but he manages to overlook it himself)
the thing that separates hsts trans women from effeminate gay cis men is that hstses are physically feminine enough to pass, even in an era where it was categorically impossible to transition before puberty
the fact that people can now transition before puberty and thus *anyone* can pass means desistence rates are going to drop -- a natal male who is androphilic and extremely feminine, who just ten or twenty years ago would live as a flamboyant gay man, will now live as a gender-conforming straight woman
whether this is a good or bad thing is up to the observer to decide

>>7691130
Um, NO, that's not how that works. If a cis man, feminine or not, is being given hormones and estrogen he will get dysphoria on it. If there's no dysphoria from taking hormones afterwards, they were trans.

>>7691130
this is also one thing that you *have* to understand, inside and out, when talking to terfs about trans kids
terfs know this, even though they don't put it in those exact terms, and the majority of terfs are masculine gynephilic natal females -- they are people who would have transitioned as children if they were twenty years younger
they know this
they think it's a bad thing, because they perceive it as attempted 'conversion therapy' on gender-non-conforming same-sex-attracted children, and really, they aren't wrong
it's just that the conclusion from a trans perspective is that few-to-no butch lesbians and fem gays is a reasonable tradeoff in exchange for catching transsexualism before it gets severe

>>7691137
please cite papers, books, etc showing that passability is not a consideration in the decision of trans women who started off as gay, extremely gnc men to transition
in fact, no, please research the topic of trans women who started off as gnc gay men and see what you learn from there
it's an objective fact that the vast majority of dysphoric people did not transition until very recently, and it's equally fact that the 'brain sex' thing a lot of people talk about in transsexualism discussions does not work how it's usually said to work -- there's a much better argument for cis gay men being female-brained than trans lesbians

>>7691137
Sauce? I heard this stated as fact often enough, but it seems like just a guess.

>>7691211
there's no research showing cis people get dysphoric when given the opposite hormone balance
in my anecdotal experience, some do but some don't, and if you're very gender-non-conforming at baseline you're much, much less likely to become dysphoric on hormones -- at least not until five-ten-twenty years down the line

>>7691130
So there's no fundamental difference between effeminate gay "cis" men and hstses? Same brain just whether or not they can pass?

What about non-feminine gays then? And feminine lesbian trans women?

>>7691142
>the majority of terfs are masculine gynephilic natal females -- they are people who would have transitioned as children if they were twenty years younger
but natal females aren't under the same stigma as natal males. a feminine androphilic natal male might get more social acceptance if he transitions instead of being a flamboyant gay but a masculine gynephilic natal female could just be a butch lesbian without as much trouble as going ftm.

>they think it's a bad thing, because they perceive it as attempted 'conversion therapy' on gender-non-conforming same-sex-attracted children, and really, they aren't wrong
do you think it's bad or good?

>>7691221
>there's no research showing cis people get dysphoric when given the opposite hormone balance
people like reimer often detransition.

>>7691292
>So there's no fundamental difference between effeminate gay "cis" men and hstses? Same brain just whether or not they can pass?
so far as we can tell, yes
>What about non-feminine gays then?
varying degrees of neurofeminization, same as how some straight men 'seem' gay
>And feminine lesbian trans women?
great question! opinions vary. usually femme trans lesbians have spent a *lot* of time working on their mannerisms and presentation to be as feminine as they are, but there are exceptions, who i guess are similar to feminine straight men.
>>7691309
>but natal females aren't under the same stigma as natal males. a feminine androphilic natal male might get more social acceptance if he transitions instead of being a flamboyant gay but a masculine gynephilic natal female could just be a butch lesbian without as much trouble as going ftm
...yeah, nah, not past a certain point of masculinity
t. trans man who has a much better life as a dude than a butch lesbian
>do you think it's bad or good?
i think it's good, partially because i don't really think gender roles are inherently bad, but moreso because of the whole 'treating transsexualism before it gets severe' deal
>>7691315
i've read studies on reimer-esque groups, and they're roughly split between people who transition and people who instead live as extremely gnc cis people
it depends on whether the hell that is transition is worth it
transition becoming less hellish means more people transitioning, and in the specific situation we're referring to that means lower desistence

>>7689415
>They aren't estimates. They're data. The hypothetical non-transitioning transsexual doesn't have a lot of data supporting it in this case.
Different anon, but the data is simply that 5% transitioned and the rest didn't. That doesn't provide any evidence of whether any of the other 95% would actually like to transition or might do so in the future - that's a separate question.

If I take a survey and find 60% of people in an office ate a biscuit on a certain day, that doesn't prove that the other 40% didn't want one or are on a diet or brought their own, it just proves that they didn't take one.

Yes, it's hypothetical, and even if it were true then the number of non-transitioning dysphorics would probably still be a minority, but it still needs to be taken into account as a margin for error.

Children shouldn't be able do decide on these things. They aren't there mentally.

t. ftm

>>7691342
That's why children aren't deciding. A therapist is. And that's only whether or not to give them completely temporary and reversible hormone blockers at puberty. Think about it, man, you wouldn't have grown tits that you need lopped off if you had hormone blockers before estrogen got to you. Literally the vagina would be all you'd have to deal with.

why torture yourself tbdesu

>>7691335
>...yeah, nah, not past a certain point of masculinity
>t. trans man who has a much better life as a dude than a butch lesbian
what's the point where a woman can't be masculine?

>i think it's good, partially because i don't really think gender roles are inherently bad, but moreso because of the whole 'treating transsexualism before it gets severe' deal
but it wouldn't get severe in some (maybe all) cases if gender roles weren't divided by sex.

>i've read studies on reimer-esque groups,
titles/links? all i've found is the chapter in bailey's book.

>>7691342
It's reversible and consensual, unlike other things that are done to kids like circumcision.

>t. ftm
No worries about T destroying your chances of passing.

>>7691365
>what's the point where a woman can't be masculine?
not entirely sure, though i was past it
it's less how you look on a surface level and more how you fundamentally act -- i've met girls who looked more masc than me pre-transition who have a much easier and happier time being girls. i was pretty much one of the stereotypical transbians who gets called a 'creepy male invader in female spaces', plus very autistic, plus attracted to women in the same way as a straight guy which is pretty much considered Worse Than Rape by lesbians
>but it wouldn't get severe in some (maybe all) cases if gender roles weren't divided by sex
you might be able to make that argument for a subset of hstses, but in the west only 10-30% of trans people are hsts
the majority of trans people are a*p, and gender roles aren't a concern for most a*ps -- they have a harder time fitting into their transitioned role than their natal one
>titles/links? all i've found is the chapter in bailey's book
i chased up the studies that were in the book, but have since lost the links (i'm not as good at record-keeping as i want to be). good on you for reading it, by the way -- it's a bit of a strange book and definitely a product of how transsexualism was viewed in the late 90s/early 2000s, but i think it's good reading for anyone interested in this topic

>>7691351
>Think about it, man, you wouldn't have grown tits that you need lopped off
My breasts literally didn't grow since I was 12 so I don't even need surgery.

I don't think that a therapist can decide if a little kid really is trans. Kids say a lot of shit, I wouldn't trust one.

>>7691383
>it's less how you look on a surface level and more how you fundamentally act
i would have guessed that. i'm really interested in these details of how gender roles work.

>plus attracted to women in the same way as a straight guy
what way is that?

>the majority of trans people are a*p, and gender roles aren't a concern for most a*ps -- they have a harder time fitting into their transitioned role than their natal one
wait, i didn't know the majority were a*p. how come?
why do a*ps have more trouble in their transitioned role than natal? wouldn't that mean most trans people aren't gnc as kids, if gnc is a hsts thing?

>i chased up the studies that were in the book, but have since lost the links
i'll just search them and hopefully there aren't too many paywalls.

>i think it's good reading for anyone interested in this topic
i try to read anything that might be insightful about a*p.

>>7691388

Funny how it always seems to be people who turned out fine despite adult transition who oppose anyone younger being able to do it.

>>7691388
You do understand what I just said about hormone blockers being temporary and reversible, right? The whole idea is exactly that, to give kids time to grow up some more and become mature enough to decide what they want.
It's a win-win. If they're not trans, you take them off the blockers, normal puberty happens and they've talked to a therapist about their gender issues. If they are trans, you put them on HRT and they have much better outcomes for starting treatment right away.

>>7691398
well, one thing that's worth keeping in mind is that being extremely gnc, whether feminine gay or butch les, is going to limit your life options as is -- and there are certainly hsts people who aren't *as* gnc as others who transition out of that alone. blaire white seems like an interesting example here. so i had all the shit i'd get for being visibly gnc already, but i wasn't acceptable in lesbian circles either, because my fundamental ways-of-relating-to-the-world were more like those of a dude than a gnc chick. i was more visual in my attraction and directed at very straight-looking girls, not interested in playing the identity politics game nearly as much, innately acted in ways that got people on the internet to assume i was pretending to be a chick for attention. i was about as accepted in the lesbian world as i was in the normal one. even if not for severe gender dysphoria, transition was an adaptive decision.
>wait, i didn't know the majority were a*p. how come?
excellent question! we aren't sure, but the studies here might shine some light on the topic:
https://sillyolme.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/better-the-second-time-around/
>why do a*ps have more trouble in their transitioned role than natal?
because, for all the narrative masks it, 'brain sex' is only really a factor on the hsts end (and most people with neuro/natal sex discordance, at leas historically, live as gnc 'cis' people -- see the whole topic of this thread)
a*p is kind of the wrong focus for the type of trans people it refers to, in that while the majority do have a sexual orientation basis to their transition, the most important distinction is that hsts are more 'socially transsexed' and go from being gnc to not while a*p are more 'mentally transsexed' and experience severe physical dysphoria beneath the lens of social conformity
>wouldn't that mean most trans people aren't gnc as kids, if gnc is a hsts thing?
yep! and now you see the real problem here

>>7691398
>>7691413
also, regarding paywalls:
http://gen.lib.rus.ec/scimag/index.php

>>7691400
Well I'm still not as tall as I want and I don't have a dick, so "turned out fine" is too much.

I don't oppose it, I just don't trust little kids. They're dumb. Who knows if they actually have GID or they think of it as like becoming unicorns or some shit like that.

>>7691404
It seems stupid to me.
>kek live for a while like a little boy/girl, then whatever will be will be no worries"
The upside would be not becoming a hon, probably. I don't know, maybe I'm just too old to get this.

>>7691415
>>7691368
>It's reversible and consensual, unlike other things that are done to kids like circumcision.

>>7691413
>blaire white seems like an interesting example here.
i haven't followed her. what's the deal there?

>my fundamental ways-of-relating-to-the-world were more like those of a dude than a gnc chick.
>innately acted in ways that got people on the internet to assume i was pretending to be a chick for attention.
what were these traits, besides the way you were attracted to girls?

>for all the narrative masks it, 'brain sex' is only really a factor on the hsts end
>a*p is kind of the wrong focus for the type of trans people it refers to, in that while the majority do have a sexual orientation basis to their transition, the most important distinction is that hsts are more 'socially transsexed' and go from being gnc to not while a*p are more 'mentally transsexed' and experience severe physical dysphoria beneath the lens of social conformity
this is really really interesting. why would brain sex correspond to socially transsexed/hsts? surely the brain would be connected to physical dysphoria?

you had severe dysphoria and are socially male. you fit both groups, socially and mentally transsexed. what's up with that?

>yep! and now you see the real problem here
so the gnc/hsts/social ts minority are the ones who transition earlier, getting to meet their social needs and being transitioned/passing which means less to them apart from social integration. the a*p/mental ts majority repress more often despite being the ones with physical dysphoria. then they transition later and pass less, so transition doesn't help their physical dysphoria and they have the hard time socially anyway regardless of passing. so what do they do? detransition? just live more miserable lives?

what's the answer?

>>7691419
I got that, what I meant is that I personally don't trust very young kids' feelings. I don't believe the stories about 4 years old watching tv and saying they want blockers. I mean, I have a 6'2 female cousin who was a tomboy a kid and now is a straight slut who's struggling to find a bf because she's ugly and too tall.

Granted, if getting blockers before I hit puberty meants a few inches in height I would've done it, as I was always obsessed with being tall, but what the fuck did I know at 10. From what I know I just wanted to play with boys and not dressing like a doll like my parents wanted.

>>7691438
>i haven't followed her. what's the deal there?
she's hsts, in that she transitioned what-used-to-be-young (21), used to be a very gnc gay man, and fits fairly well into the female gender role
she also has a lot less dysphoria than most trans people and, overall, acts more like a stereotypically gay man than a woman
>what were these traits, besides the way you were attracted to girls?
it's really hard to describe, and i also -- ironically -- transitioned young, mid-late puberty, so living as female by this point is a fading dream to remember
i'm also autistic in the non-meme sense, so it's difficult for me to sort out social nuances, especially social nuances from years ago
>this is really really interesting. why would brain sex correspond to socially transsexed/hsts? surely the brain would be connected to physical dysphoria?
neurological sex seems to have much more influence on how you behave than how you view your body, though they're intertwined
>you had severe dysphoria and are socially male. you fit both groups, socially and mentally transsexed. what's up with that?
well, hsts people also experience physical dysphoria, but it's not the main focus
one good example of the difference is people who need to be treated as 100% fe/male in every situation, including around very anti-trans people, and people who are okay with 'not being cisnormative' as long as they look roughly accurate -- both groups may be equally physically dysphoric, but the former is clearly focusing on their social issues
>the a*p/mental ts majority repress more often despite being the ones with physical dysphoria. then they transition later and pass less, so transition doesn't help their physical dysphoria and they have the hard time socially anyway regardless of passing. so what do they do? detransition? just live more miserable lives?
well, *more severe physical dysphoria, rather than physical dysphoria at all...but yeah, what's the answer?
[continued]

File: legitimacy of agp late transition.png (23KB, 721x223px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 721x223px

>>7691438
>>7691452
it's pretty well established that later transitioners have harder times and are more likely to be 'treatment failures', so to speak. and it'd be remiss to point out the same problem holds true with younger-transitioning aap trans guys. i'm completely sure one of the main reasons blanchard missed aap is that you can't euphemistically call aap ftms 'late-onset' as you can for agp mtfs -- all trans guys transition around the same age, and in fact most studies historically show a slightly younger average age for aaps. but i've met a decent number of aaps who detransitioned or who really should not be considering transition as they are.
but the thing is, a*p trans people report the same subjective positive outcomes post-transition as their counterparts. something about not fundamentally lying to yourself manages to overcome what is objectively some pretty shit situations.
what's the answer? maybe it's just keeping going how we're going
and transition age is dropping just as fast on the a*p side of things as the hsts

>>7691154
Oh god this trite shit again.

Show me a study that compares cis lesbians to trans lesbians, with cis gay, straight and bi controls of each gender

there is no study like this, fuck off

>>7687955
seeing trans-kids makes me depressed desu.
i wish i had a strong enough personality and sense of self to assert myself as a kid, instead of deferring to social expectation by default.

Ella got lucky as fuck with her facial bone structure. Even her dad doesn't have much brow bossing. I've seen cis women with more brow bossing than her dad.

>>7691452
>neurological sex seems to have much more influence on how you behave than how you view your body, though they're intertwined
Oooor you're missing the forest for the trees here, and what you're looking at in all these studies you autistically obsess over isn't 'neurological sex' but 'behavioral femininity/masculinity'.

Perhaps you're absolutely full of shit and neurological sex is 100% tied to dysphoria and what hormone your body is most comfortable with.

What a fucking thought, right?

>>7691502
Actually, sorry, I shouldn't be mean, but dang, you being autistic is like hitting a light bulb. Your strange perspective makes so much more sense now.

You've talked a lot about your personal experience with trans people and how it validates these opinions you have, but I don't understand why you take so much stock in this when you self-admittedly aren't good with social nuance.

For example, lesbians are notoriously cliquey. Of course fitting in with them is a shitshow. I know a lot of AFAB lesbian girls who can't fit in with lesbo circles for shit.

>>7691452
>and, overall, acts more like a stereotypically gay man than a woman
this is what's unusual about her, being agp while the rest of her is hsts?

>i'm also autistic in the non-meme sense,
what's the truth of the autism = masculine brain theory? and the trans = autism theory, which contradicts the other for mtfs but not for ftms?

>neurological sex seems to have much more influence on how you behave than how you view your body, though they're intertwined
that's strange. so what does determine how you view your body? or maybe they are both brain, but hsts/social ts is the one in the places/ways which have been discovered?

>one good example of the difference is people who need to be treated as 100% fe/male in every situation, including around very anti-trans people, and people who are okay with 'not being cisnormative' as long as they look roughly accurate -- both groups may be equally physically dysphoric, but the former is clearly focusing on their social issues
i see. what are other ways of identifying the two? such as questions, like "would you be happy being physically your natal sex if you were treated 100% as your transition sex?" which presumably would get a yes from hstses and a no from a*ps?

what about mixed cases, like social tses who like their transitioned sex or mental tses who like their natal sex? or other mixes of traits from the two groups?

>>7691462
>and it'd be remiss to point out the same problem holds true with younger-transitioning aap trans guys.
why do aap transguys transition younger but agp transwomen later?

>but the thing is, a*p trans people report the same subjective positive outcomes post-transition as their counterparts. something about not fundamentally lying to yourself manages to overcome what is objectively some pretty shit situations.
i'm not sure how to feel about this. just transitioning younger and passing better won't solve the core problem of wanting a different body but not fitting the gender role for it.

>>7691154
>Show me a study that
but you don't need studies to believe >>7691137 ? why not?

>>7691516
>what's the truth of the autism = masculine brain theory?
It's wrong. Cis girls are autistic just as often, but estrogenic autism presents differently. It's easier to mask and cope with estrogen in your system. t. formerly more autistic MtF who can mask autism far more efficiently after transition.

>just transitioning younger and passing better won't solve the core problem of wanting a different body but not fitting the gender role for it.
Yep, better go out and find all the autistic cis girls in STEM and pump them full of testosterone.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samantha-rodman-phd/i-want-girlfriends-but-i-dont-get-along-with-other-women_b_6702276.html
Wow, look at this. It's a married cis woman who doesn't fit in with other women! AAP diagnosis confirmed. Ready the testosterone needles!

>>7691530
>but estrogenic autism presents differently. It's easier to mask and cope with estrogen in your system. t. formerly more autistic MtF who can mask autism far more efficiently after transition.
wait explain this. how can it be hidden better with estrogen? did the way your autism presents actually change with transition or is it just not as evident hidden among female mannerisms and coming from a girl?

>Yep, better go out and find all the autistic cis girls in STEM and pump them full of testosterone.
wat

>>7691542
>It's a married cis woman
>cis

>>7691543
>wait explain this. how can it be hidden better with estrogen?
Estrogen boosts empathy, female gender roles stress interactions, and the like. It all works to mask autism. It's a very real thing.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/26/autism-hidden-pool-of-undiagnosed-mothers-with-condition-emerging
>wat
I'm poking fun at this bizarre poster who considers feminine and masculine behavior to be neurological sex, rather than dysphoria.

>>7691573
>female gender roles stress interactions
surely that would make being bad at social interaction more obvious?

>feminine and masculine behavior to be neurological sex, rather than dysphoria
wouldn't they all go together?

>>7691581
They are associated but you need to stick with Occam's Razor right now because there is no evidence that a gay cis man is more 'neurologically female' than a trans lesbian who loves her some estrogen. There is no good evidence that it's ultimately an a*p fetish that causes gay ftms and gay mtfs to transition.

You have one explanation: It's a fetish for some, it's trutrans for others, but wait, there's HSTS, and also mixed types. Complicated and contrived as shit.

Ooooor... it's just gender dysphoria being distinct from sexuality/behaviors


In the absence of good evidence you go with the simpler explanation.

>>7691592
Handwaving everything as dysphoria is no explanation at all. It's the "God did it" of sexuality.

>>7691609
Umm, and 'a fetish did it, also hsts did it, wlso trutrans did it' isn't the same how...?

The fact that there are all these 'mixed types' also corroborates with dysphoria and behavior being distinct. Whats more likely, a bunch of different behaviors and sexualities all converge at the same result (transition)..
or all the people who do one thing (transition) have behavior and sexual differences external to it, that intersect with genetics and upbringing?

>>7689228
The guy who wrote that is a political sci major.

You're shovling shit and ignoring Zuckers was fired in disgrace for academic fraud and passing off gnc as GD category

>>7691642
other theories actually try to explain the variety of ways being tans manifests and why these 'mixed types' are unusual exceptions and not the norm.

why do you think 'mixed types' are unusual and most trans people fit into one of two groups?

>>7691768
>and passing off gnc as GD category
What's wrong with that?

>>7697606

>label kids who were never gender dysphoric, just extremely gay, as having gender dysphoria
>when said kids obviously don't transition years later because it never interested them to begin with, get to claim ridiculous things like "80% of gender dysphoric children desist! Tranny children are a product of their environment and can be changed!"

>>7697619
>Tranny children are a product of their environment and can be changed!
This part doesn't follow from the rest. The rest is fine, it's tacking this on that's the issue.

>>7697633

Except that's the false conclusion you arrive at if you take his work at face value.

>A bunch of dysphoric and "dysphoric" kids start seeing a psych whose goal in treating them is to get as many of them to be cis as he can, regardless of sexual orientation
>All of them are labeled as potential trannies
>"Dysphoric" children never transition but make up the majority of the group
>Psych starts claiming therapy can intervene to make trans kids cis and claims credit for what he didn't do

>>7697656
No, for that to be the conclusion you would need a control group, which would debunk that conclusion anyway.

>>7697659

You say that like the average person needs a control group before they form an opinion. Especially when the unchallenged data they see already supports their prejudice.

>>7697670
>before they form an opinion.
There you go, it's not a legitimate conclusion, it's something tacked on.

>>7697679

That's certainly an issue. But the major issue is that "dysphoric" GNC kids shouldn't be put in these studies anyway.

>>7697606
>>7697659
>>7697633

If you don't meet the criteria for a disease then not having progressed to it doesn't mean you were cured.

People who pull that in clinical trials go to prison.

Zuckers was just fired in disgrace instead. It's fraud and pulling that in med is criminal.

>>7697684
No, you need a full picture. You can't just exclude some GNC kids because they aren't trans enough if you want to learn anything about being trans.

>>7697729
Being trans isn't a disease and this wasn't a clinical trial or a study, no matter how much presenting it like one might make a good show.

>>7698934
He presented it as one. And falsified it by claiming a group who never met the GD criteria was cured. He's rightfully disgraced and was condemned by all the UK doctors after the doc.

If you don't use clinal controlls it's useless and a waste of money or outright fraud if you pass apples as oranges.
>You can't just exclude some GNC
You cant fraudulently pass gnc off as trans. It's like claiming that because only 1% sun tanners got melanoma, you cured 99% tanners from cancer with snake oil.

That's criminal in the states.

>>7698934
>and this wasn't a clinical trial or a study
then why the fuck are you linking to a documentary and nymag journalist who cite it when its worthless?

>>7699200
I didn't.

>>7692292
>why do you think 'mixed types' are unusual and most trans people fit into one of two groups?

Uh, we don't? Hello pseudoscience, confirmation bias is calling.

I'm an FtM; my dysphoria applies to both the social sphere AND my body. I've been this way since earliest childhood and came out young. I never behaved much like a natal female, and took grief for it my whole childhood. I'm a gay-leaning bisexual. What type am I, Tranny Sorting Hat?

>>7701610
>my dysphoria applies to both the social sphere AND my body. I've been this way since earliest childhood and came out young.
You wanted a male body before you were sexually dimorphic?

>>7701665
You're sexually dimorphic in the womb, dingus.

>>7687955
>It's another "let's make a documentary about how us straights should make all the rules, then call it LGBT!" episode

Why do some of you latch so hard on the these terms and labels?

just ya know be yourself and stuff.

>>7701880
It's just a thing women do, it's the same thing as 1000 genders, really.

>>7689415
One in 300,000 people? Seriously? That has never been an order of magnitude with scientific consensus. More recent research would suggest around 0.3%, fuck, bump it to 0.03% if you want to be arbitrarily conservative and make up numbers.