official trans typology, applicable to both mtf and ftm, covers

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>>7163958
Homosexual Transsexual (HSTS)
>extremely common ftm type, makes up majority of ftms, rare for mtfs
>transitions from about mid-teens on, after making connections in lgb community
>dysphoria may begin in childhood or at puberty
>does not conform to gender roles in childhood, extremely feminine boy/masculine girl
>does not desist at puberty, but doesn't 'ramp up' either to the same degree as a csts
>joins lgb communities, fits in well; a hsts mtf may become a drag queen or a femboy or even a shemale prostitute, while a hsts ftm will become a butch lesbian and quite possibly confess to his dysphoria while still in that community
>obviously will expect to transition into heterosexuality, but a surprising number transition into bisexuality or homosexuality
>may be transgender rather than transsexual (that is, pursuing hormones but not surgery, and generally more mild dysphoria)
>on the average spectrum of passability for their age and gender presentation
>may struggle to adjust to new gender role, despite being obviously feminine or masculine in their birth sex -- needing to unlearn, for instance, the things that make a butch lesbian different from a man
>unlikely to face violence
>may decide to detransition or delay transition due to connection with lgb communities
>well-known hstses: chaz bono, buck angel, patrick califia, ian harvey, lucas silveira, susan cannon
[continued]

>>7163971
>majority of ftms, rare for mtfs
is that a typo?

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>>7163971
Auto[gyne/andro]phile (A*P)
>most common mtf type, ftm prevalence unknown -- low, but possibly increasing
>transitions from about mid-teens on, after a*p reaches suicidal dysphoria level, but majority in midlife due to the time it takes
>little to no childhood dysphoria, but varies
>little to no childhood gnc, but varies
>a*p begins at onset of puberty and leads to dysphoria after x number of years, but like any other fetish there are signs of it before
>almost never connected to lgb communities, gender role conformity in birth sex varies from 'femboy' to 'olympic athlete' but often goes hypermasc/hyperfem to repress
>transition into bisexuality or homosexuality, bottom out at about kinsey 1 because some degree of attraction to women is necessary to be attracted to yourself as a woman (or vice versa)
>may be transgender rather than transsexual
>average spectrum of passability for age and presentation
>generally finds new gender role unnatural and takes time to adjust, can be obviously trans even if passable
>rarely face violence from others due to a lot being in rather secluded middle to upper middle class liberal communities, but may be violent to self -- a lot are conservative straight men who are terrified of being 'faggots' and kill themselves over their desires, especially historically
>may detransition due to inability to cope with gender role, a lot of a*p backstories involve repeated detransitions and retransitions
>well-known a*ps: caitlyn jenner, michelle kosilek, jennifer diane reitz, anne lawrence, lili elbe, laura jane grace, martine rothblatt, julia serano, dani bunten berry, renee richards, narcissa wright

>>7163975
no, hsts are mostly ftm
they're what made the sparse research blanchard did on ftms as stupid as it was because he lumped csts and hsts together (and called them hsts due to his transphobia) and came to the conclusion through that that ftms transition later than mtfs even though they do earlier, because he was comparing age-restricted csts with all-ages hsts
he also didn't think aap existed but that was a different mistake

>>7163958
good, this is how you can talk about your typology, not shoehorning it in tons of posts everywhere as if it's fact

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>>7163958
It makes no sense. You can't fit femboys into this theory or explain them with it.

Also, the clown who came up with this said AAP doesn't exist.

>>7164537
>You can't fit femboys into this theory or explain them with it
i mentioned femboys multiple times
most fit clearly into either hsts or atypical agp
>Also, the clown who came up with this said AAP doesn't exist
blanchard thinks aap doesn't exist, blanchard is a hack
i am not blanchard

>>7163958
how does denial/repression fit into these typologies?
i am CSTS, but i went into extreme denial/repression which lasted until i age 19. i was dysphoric, and had feminine behaviors as a young child, but i was condemned for it which lead me into repression.
>>7164537
i would say that there are a good many femboys are trans but are still clinging to a tiny thread of denial, so they could fit into any of these.
also OP said there are edge/fringe cases.

>>7164762
hsts and a*p are to some degree defined by their repression, but in very different directions -- hsts are too fem/masc to pull off the hypermas/hyperfem a lot of a*ps do and so repress through being really gay instead, but while the a*p repression spectrum varies most engage in activities typical for their birth sex (and find to some degree they come naturally)
csts repression is more debatable and, as i mentioned, plays into the fact that there's a spectrum and very few people are conclusively 100% in any given category -- some csts categorically cannot repress at all and may well end up getting beaten to death for being faggots because they can't hide it no matter what they do, some genuinely do have the ability to downplay it
but, as noted by your age of transition being 19, they don't downplay it for nearly as long or to the same degree as people like caitlyn jenner

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>>7164722
>most fit clearly into either hsts or atypical agp
Don't think femgen, it's reddit counterpart or IRL twinks with Peter Pan issues and drug use will fall into either of yours clearly.

I mean just look at Andrej's bio and what he said. He won't fall neatly into your boxes. Neither will any of the bed using but male identifying Russian moddels like Stas and Stav. Maybe there's a little bit of a parallel with castrati and the third sexes some cultures have but idk.

A lot of twinks are bi though, so it does read like something that someone with no idea wrote.

>>7164895
>a lot of twinks are bi
>hsts are involved with lgb communities
>lgB
>a lot of 'hs'ts are bisexual but the term is used due to being defined by their pretransition 'gayness'
plus
>hsts mtfs often become femboys
how much of it did you read
AND i said that these are inherently NOT particularly neat boxes
also stav is not male identified, just transgender-rather-than-transsexual
she uses female pronouns

>>7164895
Im sure all of them legally changed to female identifications. Asian fembois get away with this cuz of genetics and more effort into their apperance.

>>7164915
>she uses female pronouns
prove it

You're assuming femboyism is some sort of repression stage, not a stable long term state of being

>>7164895
I thought Andreja has said her whole "between genders" thing that she was insisting on in the past was a ruse to hide her transsexualism while also allowing her make fat $$$ as an androgynous male model (partly to fund her transition), and she identifies as a woman. She has legally and socially transitioned now, after all.

>>7164943
http://www.teenvogue.com/story/trans-model-stav-strashko-talks-living-label-free-gender-identity
also, to distinguish whether femboys are repressing or stable, we're going to need to define femboy
i would say that if you're taking estrogen you're inherently unstable, in that you're either repressing or you're going to really start regretting things once you realize estrogen is not an anti-aging drug
but one can remain a feminine man indefinitely

>>7164950
>"between genders"
or "transcending gender" or whatever it was; I'm sure I've seen an interview before. If nothing else that kind of thing is often used by transsexuals as a way to justify cross-sex presentation without openly admitting to being transsexual (even if there are plenty of people for whom it's actually true).

>>7163985
>>7163971

Idk. From what I've seen, male children are forced into repression more than female children. So yeah trans men transition earlier and often from starting in an lbg environment because they had less fear of being murdered for being a faggot.

>>7164950
I'm pretty sure he believed that stuff given what he said when younger. Given that he only presented as an Andro male despite having been on what were initially black market drugs and staying that way for a decade.

It doesn't make sense otherwise, if it was just for a modeling career then why present as a boy even before getting recruited when there was nothing to loose from going full girl.

If he says it was just a lie then he's in denial.

>>7164968
hsts age of transition varies and can be extremely late (patrick califia transitioned after menopause)
if agp developed from being forced into repression, future agp kids would consistently be extremely, csts-level feminine -- but very few are
and hsts mtf kids tend to be effeminate rather than feminine, in the same way a pretransition hsts ftm is butch rather than masc

>>7164974
Are you retarded?

>Tranny model = no money
>"How is that man so pretty!" = $$$$

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>Needing to separate transpeople into several different subcategories based on arbitrary and minute differences.

This might just be the most basement-dwelling autistic thing ever.

>>7164958
>if I wear a skinny jean, a crop top, and makeup, people see me as a girl, so I feel obligated to say I am a girl. But I would rather live without definition.”

He's only taking about convenience, not identity. If you go far enough in androgyny that it confuses people an you live in a homophobic place like the south or Russia, then there a much lower cost by playing alon and letting people think you're a girl if they make that mistake.

There's plenty of andro models obviously using blockers and meds. There's nothing to support your claim that a hormone using fem is inheritely an unstable state.

You're assuming androgyny can't exist except as an aberration.

>>7164985
Presenting as a boy when you looked like a girl and living like one and acting like one were what he did.


And he did so before modeling when no cash was on the line. Despite years of pill popping. He must have been attached to some part of his boy identity of he didn't let go of it easy.

>>7164993
>You're assuming androgyny can't exist except as an aberration
i'm not saying that, and i don't believe that -- in fact, i think there needs to be greater social acceptance of androgyny so that transtrenders don't assume their androgyny makes them trans and fuck their life up
a femboy who, essentially, takes medical transition steps is putting his femboy identity in question
if he's doing it out of dysphoria she's a chick
if he's doing it out of fear of male aging (including keeping his androgynity for longer, which is not guaranteed even with estrogen) he doesn't understand what female aging is like, and may cause himself mild dysphoria eventually due to permanent changes (inb4 serms/bica, they won't prevent infertility)

>>7165003
>hsts delaying transition due to connection with gay community
i do not see any difference between andreja claiming to be a dude because she liked the connections she made as a femboy and lucas silveira not starting t for years after coming out because he was too connected to the lesbian community

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>>7165012
There's nothing about BDD that nessecarily makes you want to be a girl. I mean let's look at it from a bio sense, wanting to keep neoteny is all we can justify from a primal, biological level. That just gets turned to GD for some. So you can't just draw lines like that
>serms/bica, they won't prevent infertility
They do, there's a lot of lit proving Bicaulitimide doesn't cause sterility.
>>7165017
He still chose to be a guy despite having chances to leave that and years of hrt use. That's also in open defiance of Aussie guidelines that mandate you have to go full tranny if you use HRT Meds no less. It was obviously a deliberate choice.

He wasn't even fully gay you know. If you look at what he said as a boy and his relation with Erika, he was probably more of a Kinsey 4. So he doesn't fit into your neat little boxes.

>>7163985
>a lot are conservative straight men who are terrified of being 'faggots' and kill themselves over their desires,
>mfw I have been thinking that's since I was 5

>>7165125
ey same I heard faggot all the time at 6 yrs old (brutal

I don't fit the retarded taxonomy above though because
>dysphoria ramping up in puberty
>I started HRT at 15 self-medding -- screw your supportive parents

>>7165131
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrG6IcloA4E

It's too late for me

Feels good to be classic transexual. I mean not really but it's better than the other two.

>>7165177
I WANT TO DIE

>>7163971
i was skeptical at first, but this actually does describe my experience pretty well.

Why are mtfs so dead set on insisting that femboys are just a repressed tranny state? Or say that the ones that aren't need to become normal hulking men?

>>7165525
>Why are mtfs so dead set on insisting that femboys are just a repressed tranny state?
Because they often are, and end up ruining or seriously damaging their lives because of it. Not that one should be so militant about it, but I think it's definitely worth being aggressive with getting the femboys to question themselves, just in case, considering the relative frequency of repressed transsexualism and how large the impact is if they are trans.

>>7165607
Even if they were repressing, they're all on feminizing hormones so you're not materially helping them by hurting their pleasant denial

>>7164537
>femboys
faggots who dont want to grow into gross men

>>7163958
>had little dysphoria when i was a kid (older than toddler, younger than 10)
>but thought it was normal that guys wanted to be a girl, wanted to be a girl
>had dreams of waking up as a girl my age
>sometimes acted feminine but dad would always ridicule me or get mad so I'm scared to do anything feminine, police behavior
>attracted to men mostly, sometimes women
>have no idea how i'd be in the female gender role

what am i

besides mentally ill

>>7165607
Is it so hard to get that some people dont want to be women but want feminine appearance, the only problem is that hopelessly misandristic society hates on men who diverge from the norms.

>>7165851
You're one of us

>>7165866
The reason men who want to look like women aren't taken seriously is because of misogyny, you knob.

>>7165874
who is us

>>7165876
>men are hated
>misogyny
bait or retard

>>7165881
Skinwalkers mostly. Some lizards here and there. Depends where you live really.

>>7163985
I think what you're missing is that the lack of education on what being A*P means results in a lot of people thinking that they're just perverted rather than trans early on, possibly explaining why it takes them longer to transition. This is also a factor in detransitioning.

>>7165886
Misogyny here is referring to femininity. Men aren't taken seriously when they want to be feminine because society does not value femininity. Very basic concept, get over yourself.

>>7164984
>if agp developed from being forced into repression, future agp kids would consistently be extremely, csts-level feminine -- but very few are
Are you accounting for cultures which are more accepting of transsexuality and GNC behavior also simultaneously usually not pushing strict gender roles on children as much, thus not giving said children a reason to behave in a manner that is strictly gendered as female?

>tfw hit all the notes on csts except street tranny
FEELS GOOD TO BE TRUTRANS

So basically
>if you're hot you're trutrans if you're not you're a fetishist

Right? I mean that's kinda silly and ignores that a lot of people do just have unfortunate genetics.

I'm not denying that fetishists exist though, I just don't think it's as widespread of a problem as you might be implying.

>>7166645
absolutely not -- and i don't think fetishists are a problem
a lot of /lgbt/ thinks being a*p somehow says something bad about you, but that's their own problem
and csts are usually about average appearance, but the famous mtf cstses are generally actresses or models -- in the same way famous women in general are

>>7166165
can you name a culture that you believe does this? i've found that's almost a contradiction in terms -- the cultures that are extremely accepting of sex discordance don't accept gnc and vice versa
for instance, the native american tribes with a two-spirit category had much stricter gender roles on average than those without
>>7166479
we are no more trutrans than the most stereotypical agp hon you could picture
>>7165131
the descriptions are the most textbook example and deviation from a couple points doesn't prevent that
also 15 is mid-teens, that's about the youngest a*ps (but mostly aaps in my experience) come out and transition

>>7163958
>>7163971
>>7163985
I think there's a grain of truth in there, but these descriptions are extremely flawed in that they don't really account for outside factors, and they make it seem like gender-nonconforming behavior and transitioning are as trivial as getting your hair cut. They largely fail to account for both non-awareness of the option to transition as well as repression due to various forms of social pressure from family or their local culture in general. According to the descriptions here, someone who lived 100 years ago could meet most of the criteria of being CSTS but apparently wouldn't count because medically transitioning didn't even exist at the time.
They also assume the presence of an open "lgb community" and that everyone is automatically aware of such things. Also, the statement that CSTS are all "transsexual rather than transgender" (which is clarified in the HSTS description as meaning whether or not they get bottom surgery) fails to account for the prohibitively high cost and unsatisfactory results for FtMs, as well as other medical issues which could prevent someone from getting bottom surgery even if they wanted to.
>>7165525
Not all of them, but there's a lot who describe the exact same feelings about their body and socialization as MtFs and who say that if they could just magically become a girl they would, but still choose to live and identify themselves as feminine guys because they feel that medically transitioning isn't enough to call yourself female.
Kind of bummed out about it personally, I'm MtF and actually tend to find traps/femboys kind of attractive, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who just sees me as a guy with tits.

>>7167927
>According to the descriptions here, someone who lived 100 years ago could meet most of the criteria of being CSTS but apparently wouldn't count because medically transitioning didn't even exist at the time
if medical transition is contraindicated, then 'transition' means social
it's hard to tell how many social transitioners there were historically but they certainly existed
>Also, the statement that CSTS are all "transsexual rather than transgender" (which is clarified in the HSTS description as meaning whether or not they get bottom surgery) fails to account for the prohibitively high cost and unsatisfactory results for FtMs
i said 'surgery', not 'bottom surgery'
for mtf the implication is srs, but for ftm the definition is broader -- i certainly know transgender ftms who didn't get top surgery, or who got top surgery but not hysterectomy
>as well as other medical issues which could prevent someone from getting bottom surgery even if they wanted to
see point 1
'non-op' is not a synonym for 'transgender'

>>7164722
>atypical agp
What does that mean in the context of femboys?

>>7168138
the descriptions given, though designed to catch as wide a range of people as possible, still describe a textbook typical case of something while in reality the lines will generally be blurred between categories
an atypical case of agp, who if she finds /lgbt/ is very likely to become a femboy, will usually be predominantly androphilic (all agp are gynephilic to some degree because you need it to be autoGYNEPHILIC, but most are exclusively or predominantly so) and will be feminine even pre-transition in a way a 'typical' agp isn't, potentially to such a degree it blurs categorical lines
my hypothesis is that she'll have more neurofeminization than other agps, which seems to exist on a spectrum even within that category -- to throwback to the agp wars of the early 2000s, i'll give my examples of feminized and unfeminized typical agp as andrea james (transitioned at 29, fairly natural-acting woman though had to work for it, not obviously trans in behaviour) and anne lawrence (transitioned at 45, acts male to the point of being accused of 'predatory masculinity' in trans feminist circles, agp stereotype in every way)

>>7164984
incorrectly assuming that agp wouldn't be more feminine if not forced into repression

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>>7168158
But by that criteria lots of hsts archetypes could also have some of the atypical agp traits especially if we're talking about gay leaning femboy/twinks that also happen to check off the HSTS criteria right down to the lgb affiliation.

I mean you could even take this post by pejic as a sign of it and they're supposed to be a HSTS archetype.

>>7168176
assuming otherwise would only make sense if children who grew up to be a*p were consistently, far more often than not, gnc to the same degree as other categories
they are not
they tend to be less conforming than non-a*p kids, but in subtle and hidden ways
if the theory that they'd be more feminine otherwise was right, then in extremely early childhood (before they could have it 'beaten out of them') they'd be very gnc, and -- much more important -- there would be numerous case reports of very young gnc children rapidly becoming gender conforming, possibly more cases of such than of remaining gnc, which straight up do not exist
very gnc children -- who may grow up to be csts or hsts but more often grow up cis lgb, and very rarely do grow up a*p -- do not get it successfully 'beaten out of them'

>>7168194
>lines are blurred
>it is a spectrum
are you reading my statements or strawmanning them?
plus, although 'agp is normal female sexuality' is a myth spread by moser's terrible study, that image there by andreja is legitimately an ordinary thing done by straight cis girls -- it may have a different context to an agp trans girl, but it doesn't inherently imply anyone is one

>>7168213
Pejic is bi though.

>>7168224
what's your point? sexual orientation is a correlate to a*p status, not a determinator of it
that was blanchard's fatal flaw...well, he had about twenty of them, but it was a big one

>>7168197
you really don't have any justification for ignoring the many accounts of agps who wanted to do feminine things but were precocious enough to understand gender roles. self-policing doesn't require external policing

>>7168250
i haven't ignored their accounts
i have taken them into consideration, examined their beliefs, met as many of them as possible and gotten records of their childhoods
i didn't come to the conclusions i did through ignoring data, i did through following it all to its logical conclusion
the degree of precociousness that some agp trans women insist they had to hide their femininity as children does not make any sense considering what is known about child psychology

>>7168232
If bisexuality is common in both groups and twinks when those are supposed to be HSTS precursors, then things are pretty muddled.

Besides, if you've looked the threads are full of an absurd amount of aap & people practically wank over IRL /y/ shenanigans happening like in >> 7129079 And that's regardless of which type people supposedly fall into. AAP&AGP aren't supposed to occur together, right? Isn't it essentially so muddled as to make the categories unusable?

HSTS and AGP are supposed as different as night and day, right?

>>7168277
>AAP&AGP aren't supposed to occur together, right?
they don't
i don't consider the experiences of autosexual (but not always agp) femboys to be aap
it is worth noting here that autosexual =/= a*p even in trans people
>HSTS and AGP are supposed as different as night and day, right?
nope! blanchard thought they were, but blanchard is a hack whose definition of 'hsts' fused both of the first two categories and called them by the latter term just because he doesn't respect trans people -- great trait in the guy who controlled an entire province's transition system. the 90% denial rate at his clinic was in part because he only accepted people who were either obviously textbook csts or obviously textbook agp, no one else.

>>7168272
i await your published results then because obviously you are a professional who knows everything

>>7168287
>they don't
Then that doesn't make sense. The obsession and gratification with reaching some sort of pretty male look is obviously AAP. It's basically the same thing fem ftms get. Just that it might co occur with wanting guys to touch puffy nips too.

You if AGP is there then it's co morbid with AAP, you need to account for that.

>>7168348
autosexuality is a natural part of human sexual orientation, just a minor one in the vast, vast majority
trans people, just like cis people, are naturally autosexual
however in non-a*p trans people the autosexuality looks different even past its far smaller intensity -- it's one of the things that makes it stupid to call csts 'trutrans', because some aspects of the 'trutrans' stereotype are actually far more a*p than they are csts or hsts. one of them is that csts/hsts can picture themselves as their birth sex more easily than a*p can. it's obvious from a base analysis that hsts can perceive themselves as their birth sex because they make it a huge part of their identity, but it's more subtle in csts. one way in which it's very obvious is autosexuality -- 'agp' trans men and 'aap' trans women are overwhelmingly csts or hsts (t. 'agp' trans man). it's just at a far lower intensity than it is in an aap ftm or agp mtf, hence, you know, the fact they don't detransition or experience dysphoria over their 'a*p'.
'aap' femboys/twinks are autosexual. there's a lot of talk about 'aap' in femboy communities, but to me it clearly isn't -- it's just having a slightly sexualized self-image.

>>7168516
we'll have to see how the next 20-40 years pan out to draw any conclusions about them
i actually don't think the current year is the best baseline for sex discordance research, even though i'm working within the few years surrounding it, because we're currently getting so many false positives
i'm still trying to figure out, for instance, if hstses are at a unique risk of detransition or if a subset of trenders are just really hard to distinguish from them

>>7167545
>can you name a culture that you believe does this? i've found that's almost a contradiction in terms -- the cultures that are extremely accepting of sex discordance don't accept gnc and vice versa
>for instance, the native american tribes with a two-spirit category had much stricter gender roles on average than those without
I'm thinking more in the temporal sense. Take modern US vs US 30 years ago.

>>7168520
Sorry! I messed up the quote and reposted to fix it. He's responding to
>>7168528

>>7163971
> may be transgender rather than transsexual
> that is, pursuing hormones but not surgery
The term "transsexual" refers to anyone undergoing medical transition, be it hormones+orchi or hormones+SRS. (hormones alone without later removing your testicles are rarely and option because of long-term health damage)

>>7168533
the definition of transsexual vs transgender is debated and to some degree lost to history (given the term 'transsexual' is now criminally underused)
i'm using the semi-common definition that grew out of virginia prince's self-identification as a 'transgenderist' (a term that could mean the same thing, but was also used in the 90s for the people now called 'nonbinary') and was used extensively on lynn conway's website, to describe non-op trans people who are that way by choice and who in other ways appear to have 'milder' sex discordance than 'intense transsexuals' (to quote harry benjamin, who in some ways was blanchard before blanchard was blanchard). it's an imperfect term and imperfect definition, but it's what there is.

>>7166161
>Misogyny here is referring to femininity.
>resorting to redefining the words to fit your delusions
How typical.

>society does not value femininity
Lies, it's highly valued in women but punished in men.
And you dont get how its not about femininity alone. The restrictions are not only about gender norms, any non-standard appearance is judged and shamed in men.
While women - in developed world - gained rights to wear whatever they want and freedom of selfexpression half a century ago, men who dare to wear non-conforming clothes get shamed or even prosecuted.
If you want to see real misogyny - see muslim countries where women are deprived of their rights and are forced to strict dress codes and have to wear hijabs or burkas.
In western world its _men_ who are discriminated and forced into more strict dress/appearance.

>>7168627
W O R D

>>7164010
>>7163985

How the fuck was Blanchard capable of denying AAP while researching AGP is something that entirely beats me, I get horrible cognitive dissonance just from considering it.

Also, scientific OP very welcome.

This doesn't even reach the level of "anecdotal evidence", but I'm going to give you an hypothesis about why autogynephiles turn into raging/sobbing MtFs while autoandrophiles are, apparently, far rarer.

Natal women (cis girls, AFAB kids, whatever) in western societies have socially accepted (or at worst tolerated) behavioral and aesthetic options to present themselves in a more masculine way without necessarily foregoing their girl label, or without it being necessarily "damaged".

Conversely, the would-be-symmetrical options for natal men are either nonexistant or socially rejected, with violence if necessary. Even slight deviations from socially accepted men presentations can be damaging to their label/status.

Thus, AFAB people with AAP tendencies, even if they don't understand what's going on inside their heads, have a great deal of time to explore their wishes and come up with coping strategies / ways to assuage their dysphoria as long as it's not too severe. They can even stealthily do so - a girl borrowing male clothing from a significant other, relative or friend isn't required to give explanations. A boy doing the symmetrical thing is automatically engaging in travestism.

This of course extends far away from clothes into pastimes, interests, body language, and interaction with peers.

The result is that there comes a point in their life where AGPs have had, in all likelihood, ZERO outlets for their needs and no opportunities to find a range of presentations they're comfortable with. This increases the needs for fantasizing, that is: AGP increases in intensity, becomes a sexual crutch, and dysphoria keeps building up until it reaches intolerable levels; and the lifelong denied desires require total satisfaction, now.

1/2

blah blah blah boy in a dress we get it

>>7169552
> How the fuck was Blanchard capable of denying AAP while researching AGP is something that entirely beats me, I get horrible cognitive dissonance just from considering it.

Classic misandry. "Only men can be fetishists".

>>7164010
>>7163985
>>7169552

2/2

I've met several AAP persons. One of them, recently confessed over drinks and tears after the passing away of her father:

"He gave me a special name. He called me [redacted] because he knew that I actually was a boy, inside. He used to see me with the guns and hat [playing cowboy] and he knew. It's unbelievable how someone can see... your soul"

Bear in mind, this person is an arguably well-adjusted woman, besides economic difficulties, with three adult children and head of a business. This person also admitted to trying sex with a female friend to see if she was a lesbian - turns out she wasn't. She's pretty much always been surrounded by all sorts of homosexuals.

Another one, in fact my maternal aunt:

"I've always seen and thought of myself as a man, that's one of the reasons why I've never wanted to have children"

Unfortunately this confession didn't extend more, since it was inserted into the context of a private talk about family issues. This person is in a very long-term relationship with a man, well-adjusted with a good job and a competitive sportswoman (For her age category)

My girlfriend had for years an idealized, cross-gendered self-image as a sort of imaginary friend, along with repeatedly stating that dressing in really girly clothes feels like "travestism"

Another, lesser example is an identifying-as-a-lesbian girl I barely know. I do know she engages in drawing cross-gendered self-portraits (I saw one, immediately identified what it was and asked for confirmation, which was granted). I've done this too. She's in a long-term relationship with another girl, and seems to be a well-adjusted artist, also getting into a technical field.

>>7169552
>>7169597
op here, that's really interesting
i'm ftm, csts, and a youngshit (born 1998). i came out at 13, which is simultaneously just old and just young enough for me to have built up the amount of overrated pseudoscientific anecdata i have. and i've known throughout the past few years a whole lot of fellow trans guys within a few years of my age, many of whom i can only call aap -- though sometimes i hesitate to do so, partially out of fear of somehow 'discrediting' them, partially because the line between hsts and aap is oddly thin sometimes with people who identified as (usually) 'pansexual' before coming out.
i think young aaps are a lot more likely to progress to sex discordance, and i wonder at the same time if a*p in general and aap in particular is actually increasing in prevalence. trans men have always been considered a minority to varying degrees, at some historical points making up under 5% of referrals to gender clinics. the most recent numbers, going by 2013 legal gender changes in the uk, imply about 1/3rd of trans are ftm. in addition, historically, the vast, vast majority (99%+) of ftms transitioned to heterosexual; the fact 'all trans guys are gay' is an /lgbt/ meme shows you this is no longer true. in fact, a lot of the shit /lgbt/ stereotypes trans men with (being feminine, liking piv, etc) is blatant aap stuff. this is probably part of how blanchard didn't realize aap existed, with the other part being his delusional beliefs that a) trans men are women and b) women don't have kinks.
one thing i'm really starting to think is true is that porn is inherent in the development and progression of a*p. a lot of agp trans girls will refer to progressing from 'normal' to 'deviant' porn in the way pretty much everyone does in current year, but they take similar routes -- they go to lesbians, like a lot of guys.
[continued]

Another hypothesis I've been entertaining is that a certain proportion of A*Ps are homosocial failures - they fail to interact and bond with peers as expected from people of their assigned gender when within stereotypical single-gender environments, but social performance seems to be normal in mixed environments.

These A*Ps seem to have trouble feeling included in single-gender environments of their assigned gender, and potential peers in such an environment have a hard time including them.

They don't read acceptance cues appropriately, nor are they able to respond to hostility within the group-accepted accepted parameters - thus failing to integrate, being singled out, being expelled or voluntarily leaving, or a cycle of being picked on if leaving isn't an option; unless peers with good standing in the group take them as protégés.

At the same time, reactions to such situations and environments range from envy through uninterest and up to loathing.

>>7169662
and they project their own sexual fulfillment onto that of the lesbians in question; when the girls get turned on, so do they, so something in their sexual psyche becomes more feminine as a response. mix in dickgirls and sissification and you've got agp. i'm really not explaining this well at all, but it's something i've noticed.
aap also develops from porn. the most blatant aaps i've met are UNIVERSALLY extremely into yaoi, bandom, or both. just look at tumblr once ever and see how common those things are on the very aap-dominated environment of the few people there who actually are trans. this is the same etiology as the agp trans girls! they consume porn involving guys and only guys, and they project their own sexual fulfillment -- and thus their own sexual identity -- onto those guys.
straight guys finding lesbians appealing has always been common and well-known, so any increase in agp from internet porn would be slight at most, but until...even just the last couple years people in the mainstream didn't know girls were attracted to gay guys. as a result of that, we might be seeing an aap explosion.
and it's a whole lot easier to be trans now than it once was. controversially, some people believe it's easier to be trans than it is to be a gnc girl -- detransitioned terfs (some of whom were trendscum and some of whom were hsts) will tell you that motivated their transition. so the aap girls have much more motivation to become aap trans guys when their dysphoria pops up.
hell, i've seen this course evolve in front of me. one of my exes did it.
it's one of the few statements about aap i'm even slightly confident making in the current social context.

>>7169676

Well I'm afraid I'm only familiar with non-transitioning AAPs, thanks for broadening the picture :)

Question: What the hell is bandom?

Addiction to porn and over-reliance on it is pretty much going to screw you up sexually - whether trans or not. I think what you're portraying is a proximal cause, but I also think there must be some preexisting factors for "exposure" to yaoi turning perverted girls into MtFs.

That is, I'm 100% with you that "porn is inherent in the progression of a*p", as we currently see it happening, but not that sure on "inherent on the appearance of a*p"

To confirm your yaoi hypotheses to a certain extent as they would be applied to AGP:

I myself am quite into yuri, not particularly because of the sex, but rather because it allows me a window into experiences I can't have firsthand (isn't that what fiction of any kind is for?). In fact I'm not into lesbian porn as much as I used to be - mostly because the majority of it is more fake than a wooden dime and geared at 110% str8 guys who don't know better. In the same vein, I only find really appealing yuri that's written by women (save exceptions).

I'm talking about comics here, my general interest in anime shriveled up and died about the time that Naruto reached the west - I'm twelve years your senior.

One thing that worries me is that the porn-feeded exacerbation of A*P, together with the social tendencies to erase variant gender expressions, and the possibility of medical transition (which is a good thing in itself); are driving into peoples' heads the idea that the ONLY possible successful life narrative for A*Ps involves transition... which is blatantly untrue. This doesn't mean I think A*Ps shouldn't transition, what it means it that there are options which a lot of times aren't even considered or outright discouraged.... even by those people that do know better, even by those people in the medical field who are there supposedly to help you, even by the lgbt communities.

>>7169754
>Question: What the hell is bandom?
fandom involving bands, specifically bands like fall out boy, panic! at the disco, twenty one pilots, etc
full of gay fanfic, aaps, and trendscum
i like some of the bands that are involved in it and have had many (mostly aap) friends in it, so i've been fairly into it in the past, but more due to the socialization it allowed than due to an interest in the culture if that makes any sense
>One thing that worries me is that the porn-feeded exacerbation of A*P, together with the social tendencies to erase variant gender expressions, and the possibility of medical transition (which is a good thing in itself); are driving into peoples' heads the idea that the ONLY possible successful life narrative for A*Ps involves transition... which is blatantly untrue. This doesn't mean I think A*Ps shouldn't transition, what it means it that there are options which a lot of times aren't even considered or outright discouraged.... even by those people that do know better, even by those people in the medical field who are there supposedly to help you, even by the lgbt communities.
yeah, i can agree with you there
otoh people who know about a*p tend to if anything drive a*ps away from transition, so it all gets rather complicated
the ex i referred to is, in my opinion, a terrible candidate for transition -- she's 18, aap (the closest she got to ever showing dysphoria was her intense reaction when i offhandedly commented that one brand of 'pack and play' packers allows you to jack off in a superficially similar way to a cis guy), very feminine outside of relating to a lot of male fictional characters, and as mentioned previously not really dysphoric
i can't see it going well for her at all, and there are thousands of people hanging around tumblr just like her
[continued]

>>7169810
at the same time, by the point where someone is severely dysphoric -- which not all a*ps will reach -- transition is the only option, and there's a lot of waters being muddied here
i suspect a detransition tsunami is coming and i'm already seeing the beginning of it with people i used to know on tumblr now being 'detransitoned radical butch womyn', and i'm really not looking forward to it making land

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>>7163958
OP, I read your typology and I think I'm confused as to which group I fit into. Diagnose me please?

>mtf
>transitioned at 16
>very dysphoric as a child, always wanted to be female
>very gnc as a child, got bullied really badly for it
>eventually had a mental breakdown because of it and started being home schooled to escape it
>moved across the United States when I was 12, and started presenting more masc to avoid being bullied again
>never really could fit in though, was a Kinsey 4-5 (as a guy) and so came out as bi when I was 14
>around the same time, started to get off to doujins where the guy would lose his gender and sexuality and become a straight female
>dysphoria also gets even worse with puberty, start shaving all my body hair and focusing on cardio so that I stay fem looking
>eventually realize that I am trans from reading the stories of trannies on the internet
>transition, pass,
>fit in with women fairly well, go stealth
>get boyfriend (who thought I was cis before we started dating)
>srs planned for this summer

What am I OP?

>>7169831
atypical agp
enough similarities to csts to really blur things, but this typology allows for blurring
my hypothesis is tou would have much more neurofeminization than a typical agp, but that if we could somehow isolate areas regarding sexuality they would be in (bisexual) male ranges, and certain other currently-unknown aspects would be less feminized that would allow for masc repression
lynn conway is probably the same so you're in brilliant company

>>7169861
*that you, rather than 'tou'

>mtf
>was gender confused before age 10-12 but did not identify as a girl
>very loving, caring and peaceful as a child
>some female accessoirs were a must, e.g. schoolbag
>girls handwriting since first class
>kids made fun of me because of these things, I didn't care at first (they used no violence until I was 9)
>played with the girls in elementary school but eventually got rejected
>made friends with only one boy who was into nerdy stuff
>kids started bullying me heavily since I was 9
>got called faggot a lot
>got beaten up a lot
>still thought the only difference between a man and a women was long hair and boobs when I was 10, very naive when it came to such things, conservative family
>only wanted to wear unisex clothes in my teens
>bullying intensifies because I move/act naturally the way that is considered feminine (sitting, walking, the famous ball throwing etc.)
>didn't know what's going on, escapism was strong in me
>no sexual encounters, flirting causes extreme anxiety
>dysphoric af. showering twice a day at least to not smell like this; body and facial hair were the apocalypse for me
>didn't know nothing about trans stuff and shit
>no lgbt-community in my area; very rural; did know only one gay person and he moved away quickly
>heared of transsexuality during my early years in university
>relief
>started transition at 22
>therapist, endocrinologist etc. were really nice to me; I trained my voice hard
>some amout of crossdressing before that (since 14), it gave me some kind of emotional relief, but also increased the dysphoria at the same time ('cause I didn't look like a woman by just wearing a skirt); wear comfy unisex things for most of the time until I was able to pass
>managed to pass at 21 with makeup for most of the time, but to finally be happy and not as depressed I had to start HRT first (after a few weeks of HRT I literally felt like a happy person)
>was only attracted to girls until HRT, bisexual after that

What type am I?

So basically all you're saying is that csts are the only true transsexuals and everyone else, even after transition, is just really a man or woman with a fetish.

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>>7169861
>atypical agp
I suppose that makes sense, although I must say I've never really felt that I fit in with AGPs except for the sexual fantasies and the short lived (and failed) masc repression phase. Also, my masc repression phase was never very masc at all, and I mainly just dressed and acted like a faggy skater boy. Looking back, I've always kind of felt that my AGP was just a product of repression and wasn't key to my transition really.

>lynn conway is probably the same so you're in brilliant company
I actually strongly suspect that I may be autism spectrum, but I think I got most of the social issues sorted out when I was young (people are surprised when I tell them I think I have aspergers now).

do me!
>first catholic school followed sister no friends
>made 3-4 male friends in like elementary, lost them in like a year
>only have 1 male friend till HS
>try to fit in with 3-4 group of male friends, end up going to 2 male 1 female friend group
>hate sports
>asexual
>anytime gender bending or CD whether cartoon documentary or story I watch/listen/read
>too shy and scared to really transisiton
>took anti-androgens for a few months but got scared of importing
>play vidya online and s ay im female and it dosent bother me unless im not online

>>7169662
>>7169676
>Porn
AGP here. The very first time I masturbated wasn't to porn, but while crossdressing. I've never watched porn before that. I frequently fantasized about boys turning into girls for years before that but I don't remember a sexual dimension to that, nor dysphoria. The earliest fantasy I remember is from when I was 4ish.

I kind of doubt porn as a factor.

>>7169980
So basically all you're doing is TL;DRing everything in this thread and substituting it for your own judgements of vaue.

Way to go, anon.

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CSTS traits:

>transition under 30
>dysphoria began at ~10-11
>don't fit in with lgb
>transition into heterosexuality
>passed pretty well pre-transition in teenage years
>(will) assimilate into new gender role

HSTS traits:

>dysphoria began at ~10-11
>nonconforming
>transition into heterosexuality
>slightly leaning on not having surgery, but largely undecided

AGP traits:

>don't fit in with lgb
>actually feel AGP-ish at times

So what am I?

>>7163958
I used to be afraid that I was agp, then i went into the agp threads and holy shit. I have nothing in common with them other than the desire to be female.
its like they live on another planet or something.

>>7170458
What made you think you were AGP if the idea of your own femininity didn't arouse you?

>>7170578
Because I was attracted to women.

>mtf
>wanted to be a girl as long as I can remember
>have memories of asking parents for girl toys (and being rebuked) and playing with friend's sister's toys in secret
>liked to dress up in kindergarten; was actually sent to psychologists and had an mri done on me due to suspicion of transsexuality (only learned about this after I came out because my mom supressed all of that)
>present as a boy and have some typically male interests during elementary school (i liked video games and knights) but don't particularly identify with masculinity
>constant secret wishing to be a girl
>once puberty hits, get upset about my masculinity and masculinity in general; feel awkward or even silently angry when being call masculine or a man
>start to play as a girl in online and offline video games; especially enjoy open-ended roleplaying games that allow me to "live" as a woman
>but still present as male, with mostly indifference toward my own body (until I stopped repressing and dysphoria hit me like a convoy of trucks)
>very few female friends throughout my whole childhood and teenage years, but female friendships felt a lot closer and more important to me
>bi-sexual, with preference for girls

>>7170458
>>7170642
Same thing with me! Only like girls.
I thought I was experiencing agp because I felt sexy when I did crossdressing for the first time. But it also gave me dysphoria at the same time because I saw many flaws in the mirror (female clothing does not turn anyone into a woman!)

>>7170769
Do some trans AGP folks actually get purely aroused without a huge dose of disgust when they crossdress?

>>7170814
I never want to know this 100%, anon. But it sure looks like it.
Just look at the current hon thread (>>>7151833). I would prefer going out in boymode one million times before looking that obvious like a man in a costume. My dysphoria would literally kill me, were I in their situation.
Don't get me wrong! There are men who like to crossdress on certain occasions (like halloween or carneval) and it can be pretty fun, but these are still men, who just want to be funny. These are people who actually think that they appear normal to other people and want their pronouns ("she" / "her") respected.

There may be some amout of agp experiences in real trans folk. But there are people who are pure AGP and think of themselves as legit trans people. They experience no or very little dysphoria and manage to live as a man for many years including enjoying sex with women as a man and being a father.

>>7170860 (me)
>"These are people who actually think..."
>"these"= the agplers, not the harmless occasional crossdresser who is not delusional at all and just doing this for fun

>>7170860
...I'll let you know that obligate AGPs very much DON'T really enjoy sex with women, in fact, hardcore AGP totally gets in the way of sexually bonding with other people.

By your measure, every single gay man or lesbian woman that repressed themselves to the point of marrying and having kids was a "normal and happy heterosexual person" and we all know that is not true.

>>7170277
How am i wrong? That's basically what you're implying. A*Ps do not have dysphoria or signs of gender nonconformity at a young age. They're basically failed men and women with autism that take their porn fetish too far and it gave them dysphoria. Neurologically, they're basically the same as straight or bi men and women of their birth gender. They generally don't fit in at all with cis people of their preferred gender because they're nothing like them at any level. You've made it very clear that really they're just fetishists and not actually trans.

Why should I accept AGPs as women when they're just men with a fetish and vice versa for AAPs? The hormones and surgeries don't actually change their sex and neurologically they're the same as a normal man or woman of the same sex.

>>7170642
if you are attracted to women you are agp. You just project and process your sexuality differently.

All mtfs attracted to women are agp inherently

>>7170769
you were experiencing agp

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>>7171109
Good lord, the amount of hypocrisy and childish egocentrism you're levelling is over nine thousand.

Friendly reminder: the harder you rail against AGP, the stronger you come off as an actual closeted AGP dearly holding to your single shred of privilege because you sold yourself as righteous truscum to the gatekeeper shrinks in order to get your dick chopped off ASAP, to anyone even slightly in the know about the issue who retains functioning critical faculties.

Why should you accept anyone as the gender they present as? Because of basic human decency, you immense fucktard. If you don't want to accept them inside your head, that's okay, but why take the pains to level hate against them? Whatever they are, it doesn't diminish whatever you are.

Why should cis people accept you? Oh yeah, because they either don't know, or because you say so.

If the hormones and surgeries don't actually change the A*P's sex, neither do they change yours.

>>7171031
>"...I'll let you know that obligate AGPs very much DON'T really enjoy sex with women, in fact, hardcore AGP totally gets in the way of sexually bonding with other people."
Thanks for letting me know this. I've never heard of such cases of hardcore AGP where bonding is not possible anymore, because the AGPler basically bonds with himself.
It's also a fact that dysphoria is preventing many transpeople from bonding. A tranny who is not able to bond does not necessarily have turbo-AGP.
>"By your measure, every single gay man or lesbian woman that repressed themselves to the point of marrying and having kids was a 'normal and happy heterosexual person' and we all know that is not true."

1. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with sexual identification. Your comparion is flawed.

2. Homosexual people experience no dysphoria and feel comfortable in their own body at normal cis-levels. Dysphoria is more often than not a hinderance when it comes to sexual intercourse.

3. Lesbians could manage to fake a marriage with a man more easily. A gay man has more problems since he needs an erection. Of course, every gay man who outed himself at age 50 and after about 30 years of marriage always thought secretly of other men, when he slept with his wife. Oh, wait, I don't think so! These men felt at least some degree of attraction to their wife during their marriage.

4. Men, for example, who turn out to be "homosexual" at some (later) point of their marriage, were not "normal and happy heterosexual persons". But also they were not "100% homosexual men in the closet" in most cases (i.e. when they enjoyed sex with their wife at least to some degree). Your thesis is equivalent to the "straight men who enjoy sex with men" label.

I thought AGP was disproven and no actual psychologists take it seriously? I'm ftm and that's what I've heard in our circles.

>>7171395
How am I being hypocritical? Everything I said is true according to your typology. I'm not even trans btw. Don't know where you're getting that from desu.

Why should AGPs be allowed into women's spaces when they're basically men at every conceivable level? I'm fine with letting a homosexual transsexual in as long as they pass and keep to themselves. Otherwise, as a radfem, I see no reason to allow blatant straight male fetishists into women's spaces.

>>7171692
Not the anon you're responding to. I'm just wondering.
I'm mtf and passable but I like men and women. Should I be allowed into the bathrooms in your opinion?

>>7171709
Not that other radfem but depends how you fucking act in the restroom if you are passing as a girl who am I to question you are a tranny? If you show disgusting male agp behavior that implies you dont belong there Ill call you out tho.

>>7171709
You really shouldn't because you're a man and your biology and socialization makes you a latent threat to women, but I guess it's tolerable as long as you actually pass and keep to yourself.

>>7171114
See, I might buy that if my experience with actual agpers made me realize I have next to nothing in common with them

>>7171843
>If you show disgusting male agp behavior that implies you dont belong there Ill call you out tho.
Like what? AGPs are perfectly capable of going to the bathroom without doing anything wrong. I don't think anyone disagrees that acting like a lecher or generally being an asshole shouldn't be tolerated, but that's not an AGP-specific problem.

How are (and >>7171692) you defining someone's legitimacy as a woman? What is it specifically that makes AGPs essentially men to you but other types women? They aren't even necessarily distinguishable in practice.

>>7171886
I don't truly accept any transwoman as a woman. They're mentally ill men and nothing will ever change that. However, to be polite, I'll play along with their delusion and use preferred name and pronouns as long as they're actually trans and pass well enough.

AGPs are men in every conceivable way. There is no denying this. Biologically they're men. Neurologically, they're men (though, the concept of "brain sex" is inherently sexist and the scientific evidence is questionable at best). Their male socialization and fetishistic behavior in combination to their attraction to women makes them more likely to attack them than a homosexual transsexual or an actual woman. Someone whose motivation to "transition" stemmed from a fetish should not be allowed into women's spaces or socially accepted as a woman.

>>7172079
The hilarious thing is you're that very same sleazy man who rped as lesbians to write this very same spiel a couple threads back. Got caught last time, you're too obvious.

Notice how you're talking for women and rping them? And hawking snuff and wanking to it in other threads?

Why should a perverted, predatory man like yourself get to speak for women's safety?

>>7172079
>Someone whose motivation to "transition" stemmed from a fetish should not be allowed into women's spaces or socially accepted as a woman.
That's not the case. Many AGPs also have dysphoria like other trans women, and that's what ultimately motivates them to transition (often it's not even the arousal at all; that's just something that co-exists with it). There are very few non-dysphoric AGPs that transition fully, because very few people would go that far just to live out their fetish.

What about the cases of AGP trans women who act in a naturally feminine way and are non-dredatory (which do exist)? Do you make an exception for them or do you consider them ll to be fundamentally the same (or perhaps you take issue with the fact that it's even possible for them to act feminine and not be predatory)?

I'd also question what exactly you mean by "biologically", but that's a different argument.

>>7171886
>Like what? AGPs are perfectly capable of going to the bathroom without doing anything wrong.

Then by all means I wont call you out. But if you start harassing others, start peeking over the bathroom stall are by any means be a pervert in any other way I will call you out and you will be sorry for ever coming into our bathroom.

>How are (and >>7171692) you defining someone's legitimacy as a woman?
You can spot an obvious tranny from miles away. They are like the flamboyant gay versions of trannies. That or they just look like men in dresses.

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>>7172240
Says the creepy fedora with an obsession about protecting his women.

Trust me buddy, nobody wants you watching them and you already got outed for your lesbian RP last thread.

>>7170684
AGP

>>7172240
>You can spot an obvious tranny from miles away.

In what ways? If they're trans, there's likely to be some signs that people can pick up on. Even if they're not AGP. Are you saying that only trans women who pass flawlessly are legitimate as women?

>That or they just look like men in dresses.

This is largely due to biological factors that are out of their control and there are many non-AGP trans women that don't pass. Also, radfems generally believe that any medical intervention for trans people under the age of consent should be prohibited. So under that model, a lot of trans women are going to have been forced to endure male socialization and male puberty, leaving them with mannerisms and secondary sex characteristics that make it difficult for them to blend in with cisgender women.

>>7169959
sounds csts
>>7169980
haha nope
i'm one of the about five people here who believes a*p are trutrans, and i've said multiple times, in this thread, even from my own csts perspective, that labelling csts as trutrans is ridiculous because several traits of the 'trutrans' stereotype apply better to a*p
>>7171582
also ftm, that's what i thought until i looked past the very surface tumblr level
not only is agp still taken seriously, straight up blanchardian shit is still taken seriously alongside it because it's the only thing with the slightest grain of truth anyone's found so far
i am attempting to dispose of the flaws in his typology as much as is possible

not going to get involved in this radfem argument

>>7171562
>hardcore AGP where bonding is not possible anymore, because the AGPler basically bonds with himself.

Yes, sadly that happens, and appears described in the relevant literature. By "obligate AGP" I am exactly meaning "men who can't function sexually (maintain an erection and/or achieve orgasm) without the recourse to imagining themselves as a woman during intercourse" We'll leave aside the fact that this equates sexual function with erection, orgasm and presumably ejaculation, but the fact is these guys weren't happy at all about it.

People with this problem seem also to (usually) be part-time or secret transvestites.

>1. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with sexual identification.

Except in the case of A*P, it totally does. Objects of desire and identification are in the same category, often the very same objects (hopefully actual persons), but it doesn't end there... the acts and feelings of identification and sexual desire can't. Be. Separated. That's kinda the whole deal. Hardcore A*Ps can't feel attracted to someone and *not* want to be this person. Or be like this person.

>2
Conceded

>3 - These men felt at least some degree of attraction to their wife during their marriage.

Well, I hope some of them did. There are also probably some legit flukes where otherwise apparently homosexual people found THIS person they really liked.

Anyways, the point of parallel lies in "secretly imagining" which for hardcore A*Ps is required (hence the "obligate" term)

>4 not "normal and happy heterosexual persons", not "100% homosexual men in the closet"

Yes, of course. But it's a conundrum, at least for me. If a recently divorced guy with two children insists he's actually gay, he's just been repressing hard as fuck and trying to be normal because of his father, am I going to say "Nay, thy behavior has certainly been more than occasionally heterosexual", or am I going to honor what he's saying because he certainly knows his personal case better than I do?

>>7171709
>Should I be allowed into the bathrooms in your opinion?
According to that logic, no, you shouldn't be allowed into any bathroom, not even trans-specific bathrooms or even unisex bathrooms, because you could rape anyone!!!1!!!1!!2
>>7171843
>disgusting male agp behavior
...such as?

>>7172079
>(though, the concept of "brain sex" is inherently sexist and the scientific evidence is questionable at best)
I'm actually with you on this

>fetishistic behavior

Why don't just start saying EVIL?

>>7172118
>that very same sleazy man who rped as lesbians
That's pretty much an AGP red flag

>>7164537
>Also, the clown who came up with this said AAP doesn't exist.
this isn't blanchard's discredited piece of shit; learn to read

>>7163958
who actually gives a fuck?

>>7172838
it's kind of incredible to me that people are seeing blanchardianisms that aren't there
>y-you're saying all transbians are agp!

The correlation of the types in these groups is much to weak to really speak of a typology. How gay you are, how much cross-gender arousal you have, and how early you showed signs of not acting according to your birth-assigned gender is completely unpredictable knowing one or several of these factors.

>>7172240
>Then by all means I wont call you out. But if you start harassing others, start peeking over the bathroom stall are by any means be a pervert in any other way I will call you out and you will be sorry for ever coming into our bathroom.
But again: that's not contingent on being AGP. It's not contingent on being trans, even. At the very most, AGPs or trans women would have a slightly higher chance of being perverts. Why are you singling out AGPs?

I'm interested to hear your opinions on the validity of FtMs.

>>7172861
Probably because they didn't actually read the thread.

>>7172745
First of all I want to thank you for your lengthy and elaborate response!

>"it's a conundrum, [...]. [...] better than I do?"
This leads to more questions. Like: Is sexual orientation fixed or rather fluid? In my view sexual orientation is partly given by nature. There are, for example, teenage boys who just happen to be gay. They may fight it for different reasons, but it's still there - period. Freud's theory that there are psychological mechanisms that lead to a same sex orientation are debunked. Just because a boy is raised by a single mother he does not turn out to be gay. On the other hand, there are a lot of transsexuals who report a - sometimes even quite drastic - change in their sexual orientation after starting HRT. So I assume that there are a) the biological given spectrum of sexual orientation in an individual and b) the mindset that resorts to that spectrum. A mtf-transsexual who was beaten up by boys and had to act hard around boys in order to "survive" may allow feelings of sexual attraction to men only after the social gender change is accomplished. I've also read the story of a mtf-transsexual, who was attracted to boys before transition and after HRT lost all attraction to them, she couldn't even stand their smell anymore. Well, yes, it's a puzzle that still has to be solved, but obviously a highly complex one that demands a very holistic view. But I'd still say that a man, who at least to some degree enjoyed sex with a woman in his lifetime, definitely was(!) not 100% homosexual. The thing is that he's the only one who can really tell whether he enjoyed it or not. So it's hard to argue with them.

(to be cont.)

>>7175891 (cont.)
responding to: >>7172745
We have a similar case with transexuals. Many claim to have "always" known that they were not belonging to the gender they were assigned to at birth. Well, when they've "always" known, why did they more often than not repress it? Even such famous cases like Caroline Cossey had a strong repression phase in their late teens. To be precise, they may "always" have known subconsciously that something was not quite right but not consciously. That's why it is so important for young trans-people to know the concept of gender dysphoria/transsexualism.
>what you wrote about AGP
You know more about that stuff than I do. This board attributes AGP even to a mtf-transsexual who got a boner the first time she was wearing female clothes (and nothing more).
The problem I see here is that it might be difficult to differentiate between a mtf-transsexual and a agp-man. Maybe the ultimate difference is gender dysphoria that is not part of the agp-man-experience?

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What about ppl who thought they were really week hidden, but like when the came out their senpai was like lmao, that's why you were such a fag.
I just went from theatre fag to DUDE WEED LMAO to skate or die/drink all day everyday and try to not be sober ever

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>>7175991
You're okay, anon.

>>7176011
Wait, so ago, csts, or hsts? I'm rly confused desu...

>>7176064
>I'm rly confused desu...
No, you aren't.

>>7176183
So agp right?

>>7176199
You're not agp.

>>7176261
Csts? Idk, I want really effeminate outside my house desu...

>>7175891

And I thank you too for keeping intelligent discussion alive.

>Sexual orientation flexibility or lack thereof
I don't really have anything to back it up with, but I feel like there are people for whom sexual orientation and sexual desires in general are pretty much set in stone, and people that are more "pliable" in their range of sexual practices. It's just a hunch, really.

>a) the biological given spectrum of sexual orientation in an individual and b) the mindset that resorts to that spectrum.

I like this! Maybe the potential maximum range of enjoyable sexual activities is biologically defined thanks to diverse factors, and within that, your life history accounts for what you actually do.

>HRT influence on sexual behavior
Well, if you dose up on your "main sexual hormones" or artificially lower them; it's well-known* and reasonable that it has an impact on your sexual behavior. I guess if you dose up on or outright kill your natural production of "cross-gender sexual hormones", it's expectable that it has an impact on your sexual behavior.

Since a so-far ostensibly male individual's organism has never been exposed to such high levels of estrogen; or conversely, a so-far ostensibly female individual's organism has never been exposed to such high levels of testosterone; it's probably hard to predict exactly how a particular individual will react to such hormonal changes, especially on the behavioral level since behavior is much more strongly individual-specific than other physiological functions.

>>7175930
There are huge leaps between being muddily aware of something, being clearly aware or something, understanding it, accepting it, and acting on it. At each of those leaps we face different forces, internal and external, pulling us in both directions.

*: Contraceptive pills, castration or neutering of any kind, naturally ocurring medical conditions where hormones are raised or lowered beyond what's considered "normal" levels.

>>7172842
the one autist who keeps shoving "a*p" and "csts" down everyone's throats in every fucking thread

>>7176828
Good response. I think we will hear more on this topic during our lifetime. We still know so very little about all this.
>Maybe the potential maximum range of enjoyable sexual activities is biologically defined thanks to diverse factors, and within that, your life history accounts for what you actually do.
I'm glad I could articulate what I mean! Yes, an example would be a women with a "biological basis" that says "lesbian with some heterosexual encounters", who does not identify as a lesbian, though, and had only relationships with men because of her upbringing and social environment. It might very well be that such a woman realizes that she is more a lesbian than a heterosexual in her later life. And it is not unheard of that such a person would claim to always have been 100% lesbian all the time. I mean, I personally can't hardly imagine an individual who had not feelings that went against the sexual orientation they identify with. Still, most heterosexual people do not call themselves bisexual, just because there were a few same-sex individuals they were attracted to. My theory is that the subconscious handles these feelings in order to avoid an identification crisis for the individual. As soon as a person (usually at a younger age) encounters more than just very few cases same-sex attractions, the identification crisis breaks through (because it becomes urgent). I think the struggle of young homosexual teenagers with themselves is a good example of that.
>"There are huge leaps between being muddily aware of something, being clearly aware or something, understanding it, accepting it, and acting on it. At each of those leaps we face different forces, internal and external, pulling us in both directions."
Agreed. That's the reason why I believe that it is not necessary for trans-people to know that they're trans at a ridiculously young age. What many people forget is that in the case of Jazz Jennings the parents taught her the concept of transsexuality.

>>7180885
Clue: it's not just one autist, it's at least two.

If you don't like the terminology you're welcome to use your own

>>7182050
Agreed to all, there's not much I can add to what you said.

Nice discussion :)

>>7172745
>Except in the case of A*P, it totally does. Objects of desire and identification are in the same category, often the very same objects (hopefully actual persons), but it doesn't end there... the acts and feelings of identification and sexual desire can't. Be. Separated. That's kinda the whole deal. Hardcore A*Ps can't feel attracted to someone and *not* want to be this person. Or be like this person.
This is a Blanchardism and is contrary to real people who exist. There are many people who experience A*P arousal patterns and are capable of being attracted to other people. Some degree of autoeroticism is a given but it does not have to be all-consuming. ETLEs are unfalsifiable.

I take hormones dress slightly effeminate binge watch yoai and want a cute bf to snuggle me while we watch netflix. I don't see myself as a woman and anytime someone mistakes for one it makes me freak out bad. I'm saving to get my face fixed will never get ffs, will never change my birth name, will never ever wear dresses and shit 24/7 live my boi boobs what am I op.

>>7182151
>Nice discussion :)
My pleasure! =)
Interesting thread.

>>7182151
>Nice discussion :)
>>7182982
>having nice discussions on 4chan
reeeee

>>7182213
I qualified my statement saying it applies to hardcore (i.e.: obligate) A*P. Not to all A*Ps. Extreme cases. It certainly does NOT apply to myself, but is described in relevant literature.

Also I'm all over the place reminding people that AAP very much exists, is basically the same phenomenon as AGP, and even provided some real-life accounts of it further up in this thread, so there's little of blanchardian in me.

What are ETLEs? Erectile Tissue Something Something?

>>7183860
>What are ETLEs?
erotic target location errors, the blanchardian term for not just a*p but a whole spectrum of sexualities that work along similar lines (the example he always gives out is autopedophilia)

>>7169676
transitioning ftm here (4.5 months on hormone atm), i know this is pretty far back in the thread but the particular bit of talk you're doing here has actually been really eye-opening for me. not familiar w this study or these classifications until coming to the thread, but i've always personally identified with what's described here through the a*p model. guess that sorta makes me a case that's not really been studied much, so felt it was worth it to quit lurking and maybe post in here.

i've actually always been unsure of the model for my transitioning, the manifestations and cause behind it bc the a*p model's all focused on an mtf populace for the most part, you don't ever hear examples from an ftm pov. probably bc of the points posited in this thread, that afabs are allowed that sort of "leeway" where they can express themselves in a more classically masculine sense than amabs could trying to express feminine. as a result, afabs aren't dealing with this growing and growing dysphoria that's then only safely expressed through pornographic models, where amabs are and that's how this entire category happens

blah blah blah, idk what i'm even typing, just restating what's already been said way further up.

i don't really have a point to make, just wanted to throw in to confirm/add testimonies to some of the talk being raised in here. good shit.

>>7185221
Ah, okay, yes.
Then by unfalsifiable you mean the theory of science term, right? Impossible to devise an experiment that would prove them wrong (and therefore unscientific, as Lakatos proposed). Because if you mean "impossible to fake" I don't follow what you're getting at.

>>7187428
i'm not that anon, i was just defining the term
>>7186639
excellent to hear it!
also as an ftm who's been on t for about the same length of time as you, though came out years earlier than you likely did (transition was delayed by fucked system), something i think is worth noting is that the ability to self-express in extremely masculine ways for physiological females is more linked to lesbians -- which aaps, by definition, rarely ever identify as pre-transition. straight girls are expected to be fem, even though they're also expected to have SOME masculine interests. a straight girl who's full-on butch can face ostracization from both straight and gay communities, and that's not an uncommon story i hear from aap trans guys (gabriel -- who runs the rassaku passing guide, is very, very aap, and was mistaken for a lesbian pre-transition -- comes to mind).

aw man this thread makes me sad

>>7165607
Didn't you ever consider that rather than being mtfs, femboys might instead be some sort of "nonbinary" trans?

Maybe you shouldn't push them into going all the way if they're already on HRT.

>>7191518
nonbinary is too rare for a substantial proportion of the femboy population to be it, and it polarizes into two opposite genders:
agender, which desires no primary or secondary sexual characteristics
bigender, which desires mixed primary sex characteristics (either both a penis and vagina, or more commonly an ambiguous setup similar to that with some intersex conditions) and usually no secondary sex characteristics (e.g. flat chest)
femboys rarely fit either

>>7191554

>bigender, which desires mixed primary sex characteristics (either both a penis and vagina, or more commonly an ambiguous setup similar to that with some intersex conditions) and usually no secondary sex characteristics

This would absolutely be the bees knees ma negro

>nearly no limits on self-expression
>could reasonably pass as either with only a few eyebrows raised
>can't actually be misgendered
>probs few people into it but REALLY into it
>confusing gender mesmerizes people

what more do you fucking want.

>>7182274
No answer simple I'm a femboi fuck your bullshit.

>>7194048
yeah, that's why i didn't respond
you're clearly not trans, why ask what type of trans you are?