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Why is "I was just following orders" not a valid defense?

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Why is "I was just following orders" not a valid defense? Aren't soldiers required to be subordinate to their superiors?
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>>25617600

yes but you have a greater duty to humanity to not do things like machine gun hundreds of villagers into a mass grave

or cart off civilians to death camps

not not torture that family to death because their missing son might be a viet cong
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>>25617600
It's a source of friction.

On one hand, soldiers are taught to obey orders and you can get into pretty serious shit if you don't.

On the other, you don't want to be a piece of shit, but you'll be court martialled if you don't follow orders.

Honestly, I think it should be a valid defense if it can be corroborated.
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>>25617600
The logic is that you're not supposed to follow orders that you think are morally wrong.

That argument falls a bit flat when you realize that in the kind of situations where "I was following orders" comes into play, generally if you refuse you will get shot. Or your sister and mother will get shot. And your dog will be raped.
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>>25617600
You're not supposed to follow illegal orders. Of course, the more junior you are the more "I was just following orders" works.
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Because when "just following orders" entails gunning down innocents, people with morals will disobey them.

Look what happened with the My Lai Massacre, if it hadn't been for several helicopter pilots many more civilians if not servicemen would've been gunned down. It is only just to not follow unjust rules.
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>>25617637

couldn't they just shoot the dog and rape the mother and sister instead?
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>>25617600
My grandfather who was in the SS likes to say "I was just following orders" with a huge grin.
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>>25617675
>shooting a dog
dude that's horrible why would you even say that? Jesus christ you need fucking help
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>>25617675
Pfft, they're inhuman monsters, not faggots.
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>>25617699
He is an ATF secret agent
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>>25617729

yeah i'm really interested in that /k/ info dump thread.

my superi-, i mean my friends will really get a kick out of it!
>>
>disobeying orders fucks you over in the long run by preventing you from going to skill schools and earning promotions while making you look like a complete untrustworthy shitbag to everyone

So it's either prison/execution or complete social ostracization.
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>>25617756
Fine day we are having here sir. Don't mind me, I'm just using my bottle opener.
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>>25617756
I too enjoy posting on /K/.

Hey! Why don't we post our arsenals with shots of the serial numbers and the total numbers of ammunition we currently posses?

That'll be really good "banter"! haha!
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>>25617892
Sadly, my arsenal was lost in a series of dozens tragic boating accidents which occurred over a 72 hour period in international waters.
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>>25617924
You too?
Man, the ocean must be littered with the remnants of accidents. Those poor fish. I bet they've had sixty school shootings due to those scurry black salt weapons.
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>>25618195
>Fish
>School

>Ocean
>Salt

I like you.
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>>25618245
>>
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I was just following orders. Those women and children were potential VC.
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>>25617699
its just a dog
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>>25618418
Get out
Leave
I'll put up with a lot of shit on my /k/ but not this. Not today
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>>25617619
>not not torture that family to death

I gothcha
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>>25618322
that dude got off with just house arrest

meanwhile those pilots that stopped the killing were called traitors by congress and it wasn't until relatively recently that they were recognized.
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>>25618322
>not those women and children were well disciplined VC.
Ya blew it.
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>>25617637
>Or your sister and mother will get shot. And your dog will be raped.
>>
>you will never serve under Oscar Dirlewanger
>you will never rape, mutilate and kill youngs girls and as per his orders
Why even live?
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>>25617600
People have free will. That's why.
>>
Your taught the laws and ethics of war in boot. "I was ordered to" will not keep you from legal prosecution these days.
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>>25618646
not soldiers
>>
Because of victor's justice.
Don't try to flower it up with any sort of excuses.
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>>25618711
I'm not sure if you're trolling or not.
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>>25618437
This
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>>25617640
The most it can do is maybe save you from the firing squad.
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>>25618745
It was more than a dog, it was doge.
>>
Because there are certain actions known as war crimes.
Just because an officer tells you to do something, does not mean the army condones it.
Despite what you might think of soldiers being drones they do have a choice.
That choice is "Will I get in more trouble for murdering children or for refusing to do so."
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>>25618808
"War crimes" are bullshit because all war is crime.
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>>25618836
Well it's going the extra mile and fucking the enemy before (or after) shooting them.
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>>25618836
murder is murder, it doesn't matter if you murder one person or torture, rape, and murder one hundred people.
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>>25617694
deine großvater ist ein gut mann
>>
Lets do 'Unlawful Orders' for $200.
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>>25618836
no you hippie edgelord

there are rules to war.
Things like not using mustard gas.
No more land mines.
Not using child soldiers.

There are many treaties and agreements between civilized nations.
Yeah we still so shitty things like drone strikes on civilian targets, but I expect that will eventually change.
Its based on experience. Some things are too chaotic, too indiscriminate.
The goal of war is not to kill as many people as possible.
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>>25618437
Who made you the commander and chief of the fag brigade? Cunt!
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>>25617694
>the SS were the only guys who did bad shit in WW2
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>>25617661
that comic
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>>25618948
Bullets kill and maim just as much as mustard gas.

>but muh treaties
no, faggot. War is a crime, period.
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>>25619177
>war is a crime MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN
I can almost smell your unwashed dreadlocks
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>>25617600
>Why is "I was just following orders" not a valid defense? Aren't soldiers required to be subordinate to their superiors?
Questions like these is why they only want youngsters joining the military.
>>
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>>25618792
But was he the only doge that matters? Genoa a shit.
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>>25619177
thats not even kind of true
Bullets kill people that they are aimed at.
Mustard gas kills anyone with lungs downwind of release.
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>>25619288
>genoa a shit
the fuck you say bitch
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>>25619294
So mustard gas is actually LESS effective.

Pro-tip, chemical weapons were not used on civilians before they were banned. Civilian casualties were not the reason they were banned.
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>>25619294
>Mustard gas kills anyone with lungs downwind of release.
But they probably deserved it.
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>>25619132
Gib sauce? Google images isn't giving me anything.
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>>25619318
You heard me.
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>>25617675
>>25618418
I'm with >>25617699
and>>25618437
GET.
THE FUCK.
OUT.
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>>25619461
I'm a deli worker
and I say
I hope you die in fury fire nigger
bet you buy bologne too you poorfag
>>
>>25619132
>>25619437
2nd
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>>25619437
>>25619552
Peaches and Cream.
>>
>>25619132
>>25619437
>>25619552
I agree, it looks like PnC, but I can't tell
>>
You are responsible for knowing the laws of armed conflict. If you are given an order that violates LOAC you are legally required to not obey it.
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>>25619605
Which one tho?
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>>25619550
Stay mad.
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>>25619656
>asking for your hand to be held on /k/
be less lazy
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>>25617637
Spunk-glazed dog is a delicacy in some parts of Asia.
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>>25619656
Shit, nigger. Just use Google. It's the second link if you want to browse the uboat chan.

Trawling through all the other comics is half the fun anyways.
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>>25617600
its a bit paradoxical
"following orders" implies youre just a drone with no volition of ones own, which soldiers pretty much are. Their lives are pretty much someone else's means to an end, but somehow people seem to want to hold people responsible for something that really isn't their responsibility in any "traditional" sense of how a soldier acts.
Apparently they want to have a man to be re-socialized to the extent of not even having control how they brush their own teeth, but they want him to be as accountable as a superior officer
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>>25617600
> BE ME, JUST BAYONETED 30 KIKES, NOW AM USE DEFENSE OF MUH ORDARS > NUH WAR KREIMS
>>
>>25617600
If those orders are unlawful, for example, they violate the constitution, then you're obligated to disobey.

It's also a matter of not being a gigantic shitbag. You don't want the hearts and minds you're trying to win splattered all over the wall of Ahmed's hut.
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>>25619688
dub status: checked

I'm asking for a sauce, not some model number
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>>25619656
P&C I (don't love) U 2
it was on ClubStripes
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>>25617675
> Shoot the Dog

ATF pls go
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>>25618836
Killing another man is not the same as murdering one.
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>>25617600
Because the people who make the rules and judge the trials never served.
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>>25619807
Thanks Anon!
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>>25619831
maybe if youre a fucking plebeian who uses webster's instead of OED
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>>25617600

Following orders isn't a legally valid defense in the sense that it's a general legal principle. If your CO orders you to gun down an orphanage on an otherwise quiet day, no legal authority in the world is going to say that was OK because you were ordered to do it.

However, in specific circumstances, the claim that you were following orders can be used to demonstrate that an individual did not have criminal intent. The lack of criminal intent could be enough to invalidate a criminal charge (for crimes which require mens rea), or at the least would be a basis to be lenient in sentencing.

For example, suppose you're a JTAC and your CO orders you to flatten a building. Oops, that structure turns out to be an orphanage full of kids. Because you were ordered to do so, it's much easier to argue that you didn't have any criminal malice when you murdered all those kids. You can also claim that you shouldn't bear any responsibility, because it wasn't your decision to make.
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>>25618870
Suck a dick, commie.
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>>25619905
>Not using Webster's
True fact, OED actually stands for Only Eats Dicks
>>
Criminal Justice-fag here.

The "I was just following orders" defense, aka "The Nuremburg" defense after it's intense usage during the Nuremburg war trials, is not a valid defense because you are supposed to be able to think "Hey, shooting unarmed civs isn't right" and should stop such action. If this thread is up in the morning I'll find the right section of one of the 50 law books here and quote it.
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>>25619996
> be me
> be master race nazis
> shooting kikes le massiv lelz
> right is white
> some fagget americunts want to ruin my fun
y tho
>>
>>25619905
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder
staypleb.
>>
>>25620075
>wikipedia article as a counter argument to call someone a pleb
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>>25617600
They are sworn to follow all legal orders, but they are taught to recognize what constitutes a legal order, and what to do if a superior gives an illegal one. You're under no obligation to follow illegal orders, and you will be punished for following one.
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>>25620150
It is perfectly viable. Articles are rather thoroughly policed and poorly cited/not cited at all statements are throughly marked.

There has always been a difference between killing a person and murdering someone. The distinction is important to have and make, particularly in regards to morals.
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>>25617637
so much this, it's a fucked up world

>Hans if you don't shoot that fucking partisan, your head's gonna become 115 grains heavier and I'll do it myself
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>>25620326
differentiating murder and killing is some relativistic bullshit
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>>25620437
What do you hope to achieve by this?

There are many valid reasons and situations that would make the killing of another person justifialbe, and Many of them have been clearly outlined.

We live in a fuck up world of people who don't inherently want the best for you, so just as an example, do you not believe in the chance of self preservation in the face of life being lost?
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>>25620664
you avoid situations that lead to killing people, if you know of a causality, then youre liable to respond to it, by avoiding it when possible, not for your morality to sway with the wind (otherwise, why fucking bother), its your fault if you kill someone, justifiable may as well be permissible, to which you probably would want to get rid of murder in your sense of morality since its only based upon self preservation apparently
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>>25620992
>you avoid situations that lead to killing people,
Trouble is not always so kind as to avoid you, and try as one might a dangerous situation is not always avoidable. No, I would never want to kill someone, but self preservation should always be a priority, unless you choose to give yourself for something else.
>its your fault if you kill someone, justifiable may as well be permissible, to which you probably would want to get rid of murder in your sense of morality since its only based upon self preservation apparently
The fault us irrelevant. This is why a distinction between kill ing and murder must be, and is made. You have a right to defend yourself, wet her or not you choose to exercise it isn't my choice, but the results of a successful defense are not considered murder, due to the lack of malicious intent.
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>>25619815
kek
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>>25617600
>Why is "I was just following orders" not a valid defense?
because the winners make the rules
/thread
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>>25621217
doesnt change the fact you murdered someone, nor the consequences of what you did, a court of law isn't a personal set of morality, nor consequence (a la didnt get caught)
>>
Because there is such a thing as an unlawful order, but in practice the idea of a low level enlisted or officer defying a direct order from a superior is unlikely given the dynamics in play. The legal system hasn't caught up to what we know about the human psyche though.
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>>25621292
>doesnt change the fact you murdered someone
It wouldn't have been murder, and in many instances a court of law wouldn't say so either, provided the firearm or weapon in question is legal to poses and that the setting is appropriate.

Murder and killing another person are not the same thing, even in a court of law.
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>>25621357
deadguy by your hands, same consequences
>>
Legally... he who wins puts on the trials.

Your options to avoid both ire of superiors and not get warcrime punished are:

1 - Don't lose

2 - Lose, but don't be around when the victors recreate society their way
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>>25621369
Not exactly, outside of there being a dead guy.
Murder and killing another person have never actually been the same thing. There is technically a thing called a lawful killing.
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>>25621424
lawful killing is a concept
reality is, you put someone in a bodybag
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>>25621412

While true in war it is okay to disobey "unlawful orders", so long as your nation will actually realize it.

At the end of the day it comes down to, "can you explain your way out of this and get away with it"?
>>
If the order was to drop bombs on a civilian building but everyone in the field generally realized that it is a necessary tactic to defeat the enemy, how does "following orders" factor in? That is, as opposed to being ordered to shoot civilians just for fun or spite, causing collateral damage in the course of attacking a valid military target.
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>>25621438
And? Am I supposed to feel particularly awful that I defended myself? Sure, it is a shame someone died, but that would practically have become a necessary or inevitable casualty.
>>
I really hate these threads because they are full of faggots talking about shit they know nothing about. Google the defenition of a lawful order for christs sake
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>>25621474
then you dont particular care about killing people
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>>25621486
This was a thing that has yet to be said. Stop making things up.
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>>25621474

I was taught that violence was the last of all resorts. That it should be avoided at all costs. However that once it was embarked on it should be such a dramatic affair that no man, woman, or beast would ever want to gaze upon your violence again.
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>>25621494
>>25621474
>And? Am I supposed to feel particularly awful that I defended myself? Sure, it is a shame someone died, but that would practically have become a necessary or inevitable casualty.

you only care about killing someone if its not your priority to do so in self preservation, what am I making up?
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>>25621438
>>25621486
If it's me dying or the other guy dying, I'll always choose to have the other guy dying instead of me, and I'm fine with that. If there's any reasonable solution to the situation that doesn't result in the other guy or me dying then I'd be happy to take that option.

For my case it's not that I don't want to kill someone, it's that I would rather kill someone else than have myself die.
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>>25621510
And this has factual or legal basis in?
Frankly, I care not for your own beliefs. You may push them as you please, but don't expect others to perceive you to be on the moral high ground.

It is nice you were taught what you view to be good morals, but I don't share them with you.
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>>25621537
>Not that I don't want to kill someone
This was poorly worded. What I meant to say was that I would rather not kill someone, but I will if it's a life or death situation for me.
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>>25621544

You think the laws of rich men enforced but armed brutes have the high ground?

Buddy I hate to break it to you but we're not that far from the Feudal period.

I don;'t care if you're John Q Public or Jesus of Nazareth. If you come against me and mine you're my enemy.

That doesn't mean I don't know the rules of modern society and don't strive to exist by them.
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>>25621521
>you only care about killing someone if its not your priority to do so in self preservation, what am I making up?
Reading is a necessary skill in this day and age anon.
Secondly, I care, and I do not want to kill anyone. This sentiment however would not stay my hand should I ever feel the need to defend myself with deadly force.

I'll not forgo defending myself. To do so would be asinine.
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>>25621554
okay, still not sure why the word murder makes that big a difference
Thread posts: 113
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