https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmG Dy-QX5-Y Is he right?

>>3130942
>if he can draw
yes
>if he can't
no

http://ursulaoctopus.tumblr.com/

^- that's his art, according to the "about" page on his youtube. I guess he's a tranny? The art is standard tumblr fare, extremely low-level. If that's the sort of art you want to do, then yeah, anatomy study is unnecessary. But if you want to be good at art, anatomy is one of the top skills you need to know.

There's a reason anatomy and the human figure has been one of the primary focuses of Western art since the Renaissance, and it's not going to be dethrone by some tumblr tranny.

>>3130966
Haven't watched the whole video, but I don't think he says anatomy study is unnecessary, just that it shouldn't be a top priority, which is true. There are lots of pros who have studied anatomy to the point where they were able to draw decent figures and understood the most important landmarks of the human body and then went on to more important subjects. Also a lot of great artists only study anatomy passively through figure drawing, never break-downs of isolated muscles and bones and all that shit.

>>3130956
exactly this. Saying something you can easily do is not really "needed" adds sincerity behind your argument. saying it's not needed when you can't even make an average level figure with reference just makes him look like a chimp crying out.

The only part I disagree with is when he mentions that cartoon art doesn't require understanding anatomy.

>>3131002
That makes no sense. What if one really good artist and a really bad artist share the exact same sentiment? You gonna disregard it the first time you hear it from the bad artist and then take it to heart the second time you hear it from the good artist? Until another bad artist tells you the same thing? Use your fucking brain and think for yourself.

>>3130942
He has a point - beginners often give shit critiques, but if anatomy is your main issue, I'll critique your anatomy. If your main issue is composition but someone critiques just your anatomy, that's not anatomy's fault, that's just a shit critique.

Also, a lot of bullshit statements -
>There are many wonderful skills to cover up bad anatomy
That's what it is, covering up your mistakes.
>you don't need anatomy to draw cartoon characters
That's.. very wrong.
>you'll get better at anatomy just by drawing people a lot
Perhaps, but ironically it'll be a longer, much more frustrating process.
>gesture gets killed by overstudying anatomy
Only if you're a shit artist.

>>3130956
>>3131002
That doesn't matter at all. Attack his argument, not his person.

I get the feeling this is a pretty "okay" artist who made it (almost) and but deep down they have some kind of sin that they want to deceive those aspiring for some sick twisted reason. Nobody should be stupid enough to beleive anything this youtuber is saying.

>>3130942
Do people fixate too much on anatomy? On /ic/, probably.

Is anatomy unnecessary? Yes and no.

Posture/body language is truly more important than anatomical accuracy, but people who understand functional anatomy (a general idea of how muscles, bones, tendons, and skin work and interact) are more able to create convincing poses entirely from imagination, and this can be pretty important for animators and comic artists. Throughout this video, he's drawing from references. Those references solve a lot of the problems he wouldn't be able to figure out by himself unless he had functional anatomical knowledge.

This debate is sort of similar to the one about direct coloring and digital glazing. Direct coloring is great, if you're working from reference. But if you need to make a series of pics with consistency, and make it possible for other people in your team to reproduce it, then a workflow with concrete steps works best. It's the same with drawing figures.

Anatomy is a means to an end, which is to create figure drawings that are full of vitality.

Whenever a beginner posts their drawings of the human body and it's completely flat and messed up. It's not because they don't know anatomy. They can fucking look up a picture or at themselves in the mirror. They know what anatomy looks like. What they can't do is draw.

Drawing is like 90% how to draw and 10% what things look like. Getting caught up in "what does anatomy look like" when you can't even render form in perspective is pointless.

>>3131121
He's right tho, just didn't word it properly.
If you pick an anatomy book before you know how to construct a box (usually because of an advice you received from some equally shitty artist) you'll end up, well, like 90% of the guys in the /beg/ thread.
I actually think that's precisely the problem of 90% of guys in the beg thread.

>>3131127
this, honestly

>>3130942

>color is more important than anatomy

Further opinions discarded

>>3131131

I disagree. Studying the figure is an excuse to practice forms. There are 2 distinctions for a reason; anatomy being the 2nd one "figure drawing" the first. The word "figure" to me isn't in relation to the human body, but 'figuring out' a 'drawing'. When you figure out something you draw the forms. You're practicing boxes in perspective anyway. A preconceived notion from people doing drop a box exercises think they must draw a billion boxes before they can move on to drawing what they want and that's moronic. As Han would say, "take it and run with it", take and apply it immediately.

What the guys in /beg/ lack is patience and plenty of practice, maybe. Not bashing all of them, I've seen some potential (off-topic).

>>3131144
>The word "figure" to me isn't in relation to the human body, but 'figuring out' a 'drawing

What kind of retarded homebrew postmodernism is this?

File: 1489463740886.png (46KB, 381x396px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 381x396px

>>3130956
>facts are subjective depending on the person telling them

File: hek46.jpg (6KB, 300x200px) Image search: [Google]

6KB, 300x200px

>>3131151

there are no patents on artistic definitions. I made up my own that perfectly categorizes such trivial sub-subjects.

>>3131144
Yea, there's no way we're gonna agree on that.
>Figure drawing is a very, very complex process.
Fact #1
>Isolating a problem is the fastest way to get rid of it.
Fact #2

If your figures suck, it probably has a much more specific reason, eg. you can't visualize form, you can't freehand perspective, your lines aren't confident...
Isolate the problem - freehanding perspective - and drill it, eg. by practicing boxes in perspective, apply it back to figure drawing and see how it influenced it as a whole. I think that's what Han actually meant by the quote you've mentioned, and I think it's what we mean when we stress the importance of "deliberate practice"

File: take it and run with it.jpg (345KB, 1159x879px) Image search: [Google]

345KB, 1159x879px

>>3131163
>Figure drawing is a very, very complex process.
Doesn't have to be. You make it out to be that way or you follow blind to parroting.
>Isolating a problem is the fastest way to get rid of it.
Isolating anything is a bad way of learning. Context is everything. You don't isolate words if you're trying to learn a new language; you read sentences and extract the grammar.
>If your figures suck, it probably has a much more specific reason, eg. you can't visualize form
that's fine if it sucks. It's supposed to suck.. If your figures suck you're doing the right thing because you're trying to >figure out< the drawing. Make many iterations. Figure out why it's bad, don't go cuddle in a corner slaying boxes like it's some kind of MMORPG.

What Han meant by that quote means exactly what he meant.

>>3131172
ps ignore my mispelling i did not have my covfee yet gomenasai

File: tumblr_orl8r0YRpg1syffido1_1280.jpg (264KB, 740x1033px) Image search: [Google]

264KB, 740x1033px

>this is the art of the person people in this thread are taking seriously.
yeah, this is why you fucks won't make it.

>>3131185
post work, that's better than most of /ic/

>>3131144
>The word "figure" to me isn't in relation to the human body, but 'figuring out' a 'drawing
LMAO

these are the retards critiquing your work and giving you advice. I'd ask this moron to post work but we already know his response.

>>3131198

see >>3131160

File: a5c5260b92e607be2e38a52f404aec067bd7f017c63ae93b42c5d22a457f3d36.jpg (32KB, 400x327px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 400x327px

>>3131144
> When you figure out something you draw the forms.
I honestly can't tell if this board is shitposting anymore. It's like everyday you guys get creative and push the boundaries on the trolling of this board.

>>3130942

Salty tumblr artist complains about anatomy.

>>3131212
post work

>>3131207

Make fun of me all you want. I know for certain I'm better than you.

>>3131218
post work

>>3130942
>why are people critiquing anatomy of my panel of just two characters standing next to each other? WHAT ABOUT MUH COMPOSITION?

>>3130942
>studies anatomy in the background
>hey guys, it's not important

He has a point for comics, there are too many other things that make a good comic other than anatomy and even drawing skills in general. You could make that point without giving terrible advice for beginners though, he could have conveyed it in a way without giving them an excuse for laziness. Gotta be a bit edgy for more views though, I understand.

>>3131172
You probably won't show me your blog because you think I'd shit all over it, but I'm very curious how does improvement work for someone following this approach.

My mother is a very good piano teacher and I know for a fact that on piano you don't improve by picking fucking Mozart and learning on the go, that would just demotivate you with frustration and engrave many bad habits - you learn things by isolating problems and overcoming them one after another. It's a logical, structured approach to learning any new skill.

>>3131238
>"The video is of some figure studies Ursula was working on--not to be confused with anatomy studies. These are all about studying movement not body part and their function."
That's the video's description, it's neither his work nor anatomy studies.
That's just for clarification, your point still stands.

>>3130942
The irony of this video is that you are watching this artist struggling with getting the anatomy right while they are saying that anatomy isn't everything.

That being said, anatomy isn't everything, but at the same time studying anatomy and learning how to draw forms properly will help you in learning how to draw in general.

>>3131144
> 'figuring out' a 'drawing'

Wow.

>>3131314
>struggling
looked fine to me. post work and show us how it's done

File: tumblr_orhj0tKhbF1syffido1_1280.jpg (135KB, 740x1033px) Image search: [Google]

135KB, 740x1033px

>>3131316
There's a part in the video where they are tracing over a photo, because they were having a hard time recreating the pose. If they had a better understanding of anatomy or just how to draw forms they wouldn't be having such a hard time at that part.

It's more than just about 'learning anatomy.' It's about learning how to draw. I mean yeah you don't need to learn it to draw comics and if you keep on drawing you will get better. Take Rob Liefeld for example. He didn't understand anatomy that well and he made a shitton of money back in the day. Yet, where is he today? Lots of people make fun of his work and it's seen as the very low point of 90s comics. His work lives on in infamy.

Even the artist who made this video. 'Anatomy' is like the least of their worries. They just have to get better at drawing themselves before they start preaching to other beginners.

>>3131325
>if you don't have anatomy from all angles internalized like KJG then you're struggling
the work you posted is fine, it's obviously a quick piece where the priority wasn't anatomical accuracy.

again, post work to show you're not just another dunning krugtard

File: linknotes (1).jpg (124KB, 800x1132px) Image search: [Google]

124KB, 800x1132px

>>3130942
Honestly though, I agree that it's very annoying when people only give critiques on anatomy.
They only say stuff like "the arm is a bit too long" or "the perspective of the finger is off" when the painting is at a basic sketch phase and the artist is obviously looking for composition issues and readability. Drives me insane. Anatomy issues are something that anyone will see after a few days of finishing a piece.

I used to give very extensive critiques about anatomy, but I've since got a taste of my own medicine. Now, I'll just assume that people are going to keep working on their anatomy (unless they are a /beg/inner who is struggling to learn it). I might do a paintover or redline and implicitly fix the anatomy a bit.

>>3130966
That's his friend, he just writes the comics. His about page says his comic is illustrated by that person.

One of the most idiotic videos i've ever seen. Seriously, that's fucking retarded, the guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

>>3131338
then who is doing the drawing in the video?

>>3130942
he sounds like a faggot without real arguments so no.

>>3131341
Him, I guess.
Maybe he's learning, or maybe they are the same person.

>>3131327
>it's obviously a quick piece where the priority wasn't anatomical accuracy

If the artist was stronger at drawing you wouldn't have to come up with these excuses for their work. Why are you making up excuses for THEIR work anyways? It's not your responsibility to.

>>3131361
>if the artist was KJG it would look better
No shit, you krugtards couldn't draw a figure to save your life and think you are able to comment on artists years ahead of you when you have no idea what you're talking about.

But feel free to post work and prove me wrong.

>>3131376 since you present yourself as knowing it all, you should be the one posting your work. But we know you won't, because you cant draw

>>3131389
Let's not kid ourselves here. Both of you can't draw.
>>3131265
>You probably won't show me your blog because you think I'd shit all over it
I don't want to post my blog because that'd be stupid to tie myself on an anonymous forum.

>>3131389
>p-post yours
Lmfao there it is. Make some retarded claim, refuse to post work that would substantiate said claims, then bend over backwards with the mental gymnastics to rationalize it away.

Another shitter exposed by
P
Y
W

>>3131403
>/ic is one person
neck yourself

>>3131405
keep trying retard

>>3131410
rage all you want you still cantdrawforshit

>>3131415
A few replies after PYW and the retard is reduced to creating strawmans in his head to nurse his wounded ego.

>h-he's so mad ;_ ; he can't draw for shit
Note how he no longer cares about his original points, because his original points were the worthless musings of a dunning krugtard and even he knows it.

>STILL no work posted
case closed

>some faggot traces
>anon says if she were a stronger artist she wouldnt have to
>DK anon flips her shit and rages PYW
I used to be surprised at the stupidity on this board

File: Just put me in the dirt where I belong nigga dawg.jpg (109KB, 1080x896px) Image search: [Google]

109KB, 1080x896px

>tumblr tranny makes "controversial statement"
>[guaranteed views]

When you've been "drawing your entire life" and still need to do a photo reference trace-over for what is essentially a flesh colored human silhouette or contour with a clavicle attached you shouldn't be doling out advice to anyone to be honest.

On the other side of the coin, Ruan Jia probably does more skull studies in the process of creating a single portrait image for some game nobody plays than many /ic/ users do in a year.

I guess that's the crux of the matter isn't it?

Sure anatomy doesn't matter that much if your goal is tracing your hoard of stock photos for the sole purpose of advancing the narrative of your LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ-friendly tumblr comic, but if you want to aim for something higher than that than you need to be somewhere in between this goofball and the top men in our discipline, most of whom all stress the importance of anatomy.

The only top guy I know who doesn't stress about deep anatomy specifically is Stephen Silver who said that he felt doing so made his drawings too "stiff". Regardless, he still does tons of life drawing and knows superficial anatomy intuitively like any halfway-decent artist would because of that.

"Knowing more" can't possibly hurt you as an artist, but I speak from experience when I say that getting hung up on certain individual things can.

>>3131403

Why should he post his work?

He's not the one making controversial attention-seeking statements while posting barely "better than 20% of /ic/" work like the video creator in OP is. All anon said was in so many words that he thinks it's important to learn anatomy and why, and in doing so he's simply reiterating statements made by far better artists than "Ursula".

We both know you wouldn't be as forgiving of anon's work as you are the video creator's in either case.

>>3131434
This reminds me of nosebro
not in a good way

>>3131376
>>if the artist was KJG it would look better

This isn't true. You don't have to be KJG to be great at drawing, but think how much better this particular artist would be if they just spent more time learning to draw rather than telling people not to stress anatomy.

This is such basic advice. Why do you need to see someone's work in order to know if it's legit. It's like:

>Add salt to season your food
>Can you cook tho?!?!?!?

Does it matter if the person can cook or draw if they are supplying you with knowledge that is old as fuck?

File: 3.jpg (78KB, 670x1104px) Image search: [Google]

78KB, 670x1104px

>>3130942
he isn't wrong. what attracts us to a drawing is the sense of design. there's tons of drawings on pixiv that have shit-tier anatomy and they look good cause of that japanese line economy. and some shittier western comic styles, that have perfect and detailed anatomy but have no appeal cause the style is ugly

>Robert Fawcett's book on life drawing called "On the Art of Drawing" (or it may have been "Drawing the Nude"). If memory serves (and I know I wrote a post about it long ago), he wrote that he didn't actually know anything about anatomy: he just looked at the live model and applied design principles to what he observed to create a great drawing. He asserted that he had never really studied anatomy and had no use for it. Design was all that he needed.

File: glen keane.jpg (92KB, 452x640px) Image search: [Google]

92KB, 452x640px

>>3131533
like this kind of thing, the anatomy's all perfect but it's the play of straights against curves and strong gesture that really makes you want to look at it

>>3131341
his gf

File: 3e562011-d954-4143-a380-1e87faea5a7d.jpg (164KB, 700x990px) Image search: [Google]

164KB, 700x990px

>>3131535
Those straights and curves are based on the anatomy. That drawing is a really bad example to use if you're arguing that design is more important than anatomy.

-----------------

The guy in the video has a somewhat of a point. First of all, saying that anatomy isn't important is completely idiotic however, it's correct to say that anatomy isn't the ends all be all of good artwork. Once you achieved a certain level of anatomy you'll hit diminishing returns as far as how important it is when it comes to finished work like comics and illustrations. In the particular example I attached, the artist anatomy isn't good but his gesture, composition, shape design perspective and line quality make up for it and as a result he's able to make a good looking page.

>>3131163
>If your figures suck, it probably has a much more specific reason

Never ever aim for quality when drawing figures. That's rule number 1 unless your goal IS to copy exactly what you see and become a human copy machine.

You don't copy, you study.

>>3131533
>there's tons of drawings on pixiv that have shit-tier anatomy and they look good cause of that japanese line economy. and some shittier western comic styles, that have perfect and detailed anatomy but have no appeal cause the style is ugly
Examples of both?

>>3131668
Terrible advice. If you never aim for quality, you'll never be able to draw quality. That's actually something I remember steve huston mentioning in his interview with proko. People make all these shitty quick drawings and then expect to somehow come up with an amazing piece. It doesn't work like that. Doing gestures is fine if that's your goal but you should also aim to do accurate 1:1 studies to improve your proportion and placement.

God, there is so much shitty advice on here. I'm glad I've already learned everything from elsewhere otherwise i'd be a confused beginner.

>>3131671
It's like you read the first sentence of the post and just stopped to reply. I got a good laugh.

File: ec4c1caf2975d5fec64b277c37c170351442277104_full.jpg (106KB, 639x352px) Image search: [Google]

106KB, 639x352px

>>3131661
>the artist anatomy isn't good but his gesture, composition, shape design perspective and line quality make up for it and as a result he's able to make a good looking page.

I guess that's just a matter of opinion, because that page is really confusing as fuck to read. Also, it's not as if it's all the amazing to look at? Like, Oh Great's stories are so bad, but his pages are nothing short of amazing.

>>3131668
>human copy machine

Everyone please learn to recognize this expression, and know that it is exclusively used by NGMI people.

>>3131668
>>3131719
Reminder that being a human copy machine is the first step to making it. If you can't copy well, you can't draw or see accurately.

>>3131533

Artistic anatomy =/= medical anatomy. It's astonishing that even masterful artists are unable to sort out this distinction.

If you can draw beautiful, realistic figures from imagination you DO know anatomy - artistic anatomy, that is.

>>3131726
That explains how the Greeks and Romans did it. Just drew from life and that's why it was so realistic.

>>3131535
>but it's the play of straights against curves and strong gesture that really makes you want to look at it

Gesture and rhythm *are* anatomy. Gesture comes from the bones, while rhythm comes from the placement and tension of muscles. The interplay of straights and curves happen because muscles coil around bone, relaxed flesh hang from rigid bone structure, etc.

People need to step back for a moment and think about what "studying anatomy" actually means for an artist. It's not about remembering the scientific names of every bone and muscle. It's about understanding the rhythms and masses and how they all work in motion.

>>3131734
Pretty sure people study anatomy so their shit looks human and that's it. They could care less about rhythms and masses and how they all work in motion.

>>3131736

this is bait

File: 1504186367396.jpg (45KB, 511x428px) Image search: [Google]

45KB, 511x428px

>>3131207
The board has long been taken over by these threads. You are in one.

>>3131214
>>3131222
post work

>>3131728
Greek statues do not have normal human proportions. They are idealized. The Europeans studying them later thought that humans had devolved from the time of the Greeks, because of those proportions.

Yet, it's more than having an understanding of 'anatomy.' It's about having an understanding of how forms work and being able to problem solve as well. Having those skills helps your ability to draw immensely. This why OP's link is not really good advice.

This post put it pretty good: >>3131734

>>3131734
>the rhythms and masses and how they all work in motion.
So how do you study these?

>>3131108
this
Anatomy is totally important

>>3131734
>It's about understanding the rhythms and masses and how they all work in motion.

Yeah, just like the video creator in the OP

File: 59474243_p1_master1200.jpg (1MB, 1200x784px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1200x784px

>>3131734
gesture is only design if you are consciously reordering what you see according to design principles, like fawcett did

look at these limbs. clearly lacking knoweldge of the muscle anatomy. but the gesture is strong. people use the term 'gesture' discussing drawings of animated characters too, including lamps and robots... it is not synonymous with muscle and bone anatomy

>>3132221
force by mike matessi is good, you should be able to find it in the book thread

File: 1489610181965.gif (2MB, 280x211px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 280x211px

>>3130942
>even considering the opinion of some low-test nu-male literal who from tumblr with dyed streaks in his hair and a high-pitched feminine voice/cadence

>>3133089
Who would you consider then?

>>3136017
https://youtu.be/5A0BVBvyA4E

The one and only

>>3133089
It's a very common opinion though that almost every professional shares. Why are you such a reactionary?

>>3131325
>Take Rob Liefeld for example. He didn't understand anatomy that well and he made a shitton of money back in the day. Yet, where is he today? Lots of people make fun of his work and it's seen as the very low point of 90s comics

He's fondly remembered, at least by other Marvel artists.

>>3136273

Yeah, fondly the same way your pervert uncle fondled your dick when you were 5

File: scottie hottie.jpg (25KB, 430x322px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 430x322px

>>3136017
Only blue-eyed aryans like Scott Robertson.