where did everything go so wrong /his/ ;_;

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>>6137
>implying the ottoman empire wasn't a bunch of faggots
>implying the ottoman empire didnt fundamentally set up the failure of islam in the modern era
>implying the Abbasid aren't better
nice try OIDF

My middle school textbooks called the Ottoman Empire the sick man of Europe by the time WW1 started. What were the problems responsible for its decline?

>>6309
>nationalism
>democracy/socialism
>outdated army and shitty leadership
>allied with germany

>>6436
Don't forget all of the incompetent sultans.

>>6483
The Sultans became mothers baby

and the Valide Sultans ruled by proxy

>>6483
>incompetent sultans.

redundant desu

>>6529
not really

>>6309
It was the "sick man of europe" way before WWI.
To answer your question, it just couldn't keep with the times. There are many specific reasons why it went to shit, but my 'favorite' explanation is that the whole buereucracy/administration of the State became a "profit machine" for guys who wanted to make money.
Read Ebu al-Haj's "birth of modern state" if you are interested. He keeps repeating himself, but the few points he make are good and on target.
>>6515
I wouldn't say that was the case except for Kösem Sultan.

>>6137
how did the auto mens get so strong? Because they pioneered regimental armies instead of medieval levies? Because they were some of the first gunfags?

>there will never be another version of the millet system ever again
why lads? fuck nation states and their laws

Don't Ottoboos find it weird that literally no one from people that were part of it has any affinity towards it?
I mean, ask even Bosniaks and Muslim Albanians, most of them consider Ottomans to be occupiers.
Even shitload of Turks don't see it as something great.
It was relatively okay in 16th century, but as time went on it gradually became more and more chaotic.
Just one example: during Ottoman rule, population of Balkans declined by 2/3rds.

>>6137
Civil war is always a bad thing, but the remedy to that situation shouldn't have been to basically remove the Sultan's sons from any position of governance, which is what the Ottomans did. The Sultans became creatures of the court with virtually no experience in administration.

Also Imperial over reach. The Ottomans were never capable of properly administering Hungary as evident by the numerous letters from the Pashas of Buda to the Habsburgs all but begging them to stop sending raiders into Hungary. Hungary was ruled from garrison towns and getting taxes from the locals was all but impossible because the Hungarians were more afraid of Habsburg raiders killing them for paying taxes to the Turks than they were afraid of the Ottomans.

>>6529
dont be rude, some of the earlier one like mehmet and suleiman are alright. after that the jannisaries become too strong and killed every sultan who tried to reform.


there's also this guy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

>>6571
Complete authority of the dynasty and capable rulers. But most importantly, they were surrounded by exploitable enemies on all sides. They couldn't have not expanded if they wanted to.

>>6629
No, people have some affinity to its early versions but not its later failed version.

It was still a Caliphate and that is important to note.

>>6713
Fun fact: when Serbs rebelled in 1804, Sultan actually supported them because he didn't have any control over Serbia.
In fact, Ottomans never micromanaged their empire.
This is kinda important to understand because it explains enmity between Muslims and Christians that still exists in Balkans.
It's not just religious, it's the fact Muslims in Balkans, Slavs and Albanians, were the ones who actually controlled Balkans.
There was very few Turkish settlers in Balkans.
But this can be confusing for outsider to understand because in past all Muslims were called ''Turks'', even though most of them in Balkans didn't speak Turkish. In fact, only elite of the elite spoke Turkish.

>>6784
when does a sultanate become a caliphate

>>6629
most people in the ME still thinks favorably to the ottoman empire, probably because all the bullshit we had to deal with now but still

>>6851
When it gets bay'ah from the majority of Muslims

The Ottomans inherited it from the Mameluks

>>6784
Maybe in Arab countries.
Here in Balkans, only Muslims have some rosy view of Ottoman Empire, and those people are minority even among Muslims.

>>6852
wouldnt otto rulership over all the tribes of the levant, egypt, and arabia for centuries help explain why the ME cannot into nation-states today though

>>6571
the jannisaries were a ground-breaking idea back then, little they know it would lead to their destruction

>>7028
everything in this world is bound to end

except for some few things

>>6563
This. Lots of land run by tax farmers and disloyal beys combined with extreme opposition to modernizing, including the army.

>>6851
when the Sultan claims it. There have been numerous times that Sultans have claimed to be Caliph. The Umayyad Sultan of Cordoba claimed it even though the Abbasid Caliphs ruled in Baghdad, the Almohads claimed Caliphate, Sokoto and Bornu both claimed it despite being west African States. The Hashemites claimed it when they sided with the British and rebeled against the Ottomans, and the Leader of ISIS claims it now.

>>6851
the only righfull caliphate was the first btw, thats all you need to know about it

>>6571
To the west was a failing empire and divided christian states and to the south was Mamluks.

>>7134
you can claim it all you want, but only one with the majority gets recognized

>>7028
it wasn't ground-breaking. Gulam system was there way before yeniçeris. The difference of Ottoman devşirme system is that they not only used them as soldiers but also as administrators.

>>6137
>stop trade with europe
>europe finds america
>europe colonizes and trades with everyone else directly
>europe gets rich
>le sick mehmet of europe

>>7028
Not really, you had similar troops in most of previous Muslim states.
They were however superior fighting force early on.

>>6137
>Printing presses are haraam!

This was the beginning of the end

>>7233
Ottomans never stopped trade with Europe. Europeans just didn't like giving them an extra money

>>6137
in 1453 desu

>>7191
>implying
the only rightful Caliph during the Rashidun Caliphate was Ali and he should have been the first Caliph. The Fatimid Caliphs were also rightful.

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>>7322
stay mad

>>7346
>this Shia taqiyya

>>6571
Complete authority of Sultans. Mehmed the Conqueror set up a ruthless but effective system,

Hell, it was a lot effective than it should've been since when you get some shit Sultans, the whole thing collapses hard.

>>7295
>Printing presses are haraam!
wut

>>6629
>Don't Ottoboos find it weird that literally no one from people that were part of it has any affinity towards it?

To be fair, almost every ex-Ottoman country today was formed as a 19th and 20th century nationalist revolt against them. You get that kind of hostility when you look at plenty of other ex-Imperial colonies that violently won their independence.

I believe Hungary is comparatively mild in its approach to the Ottomans, most likely because the Turks were pretty old hat by the time the country started having its own nationalist ambitions against Austrians and then everyone else around them.

>>7791
1494 was when the first known printing press in the Ottoman empire and it was owned by jews expelled by the Spanish. The first book printed in Turkish happen in 1729.

>https://sureshemre.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/on-the-late-adoption-of-the-printing-press-in-the-ottoman-empire/

>>8177
Like the blogger mentions, I don't think the religious establishment were the reason but instead the scribes. The guild in Paris tried the same thing and succeeded for decades until the king realized the advantage in propaganda and power printing gave the crown.

The reason religious books were not allowed was because that's how scribes made their livelihood by, religious texts being the most popular.

Just imagine what would have happened to the German printing industry in the 15th century if no one was allowed to print the Bible or any other religious text.

>>8177
holy shit
thats really fucking sad
you got the quran for gods sake youd think there would naturally be impetus for a muslim mirror to the gutenburg bible going on at the same time
>scribe class
i mean, were christian monks before gutenberg making mad dosh for their monasteries or something..

>>8443
>i mean, were christian monks before gutenberg making mad dosh for their monasteries or something..
Yes actually.

The Quran being one of the most popular printed books now is a pretty good indicator that it was theologically feasible to do. The problem was the typeset. Modern Standard Arabic is a pretty recent creation, and before it printing in Arabic was a surprisingly expensive and hard thing to do. With a Latin script you could get away with about 30 blocks total, each of which required a skilled craftsman to make. But with Arabic I think it not only doubles, but there's no easy way to pull off the dozens more combinations that each letter makes with another as they connect.

Modern digital technology made this much easier and cheaper.

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Seljuks are really underrated, they were far superior to Ottomans, why no one talks about it?

>>8707
because it lasted like 100 years and all we got from it was that lion from the lion the witch and the wardrobe

>>8707
Their presence in Asia Minor and the Levant isn't all that well understood compared to their history in Iraq and Iran, so they're about as popular as any other Middle Eastern state that Europeans barely interacted with if ever.

>>8758
>it lasted like 100 years
so did mongols but everyone knows about them
>>8780
actually Seljuks triggered crusaders, they had contacts with europeans, especially with greeks

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>>8707
Because it was a clusterfuck of succession wars.

It's banner was GOAT tho.

>>8707
>that square in anatolia


triggered

>>8857
>so did mongols

Mongol successor states survived for a long time.

>>8872
Armenian Kingdom.

>>8872
Cilician Armenians
they used mountain warfare against horse archer turks which worked pretty well.

>>8872
muh border gore

>>6137

Literally just posting to get a sub10k get senpai lmfao desu senpai

>>8857
>actually Seljuks triggered crusaders
Something we only sort of understand through the Alexiad, itself loaded with possible revisionism about the exact events and really tells us very little.

>>8636
>>8443
>>8398
Also they had low literacy rates patially because Ottoman Turkish writing used significant amou ts of Persian & Arabic and the writing sytem didn't suit the Turkish parts of the language very well. Basically reforms similar to what Ataturk implemented were necessary to help Turkish eeading and writing, although they could have been done by just adding more characters to the arabic/persian script to represent vowels.

>>9236
Arabic alphabet is very stylish in terms of looks but it sucks hard when you apply it to a language with vowel harmony.

>>6228
fuck off you arab retard

ottoman turks were the only muslims to ever achieve somethign real

>>10533
o i am laffin

>>6137

>wake up
>realize I'm a shit-brown mix of mongol, rus, greek, arab, and subsaharan african

That's where, OP.

>>6314
>no persiaboos allowed
So no Ottoman rulers then? lmao

>>6309
>What were the problems responsible for its decline

desu, it all started with excessive amounts of gold and silver which came from New World with Age of Exploration.

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>>11631
you sound like a phenotype pro

could you classify this turk?

>>11760
>>11690
You can't expect to be the best when your flag looks like a virgin pussy.

>>11750

>could you classify this turk?

He is a mix of everything wrong with the world

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>>6137

>Ottomans

Being beaten by the tiny nation of Portugal on their own home ocean count as great?

Avoiding direct confrontation with western European armies count as great? The main reason they never conquered Austria is because they had to wait each time for Austria's armies to be deep in France to try anything on Vienna.

And their most iconic technical accomplishment, the mega canon that took down Byzantium, was actually hungarian.

>>6137
>where did everything go so wrong
You decided to fuck with white people and ignored Xerxies example of why it's a bad idea

>>11750
dönerci cinayeti izlerken döner yiyin

EF SO

>>11889
>>11921
(you)

>>12000
merhaba /ka/rdeşum :D:D:

>>6314
The Abbasids didn't rule from Persia m8

>>11892
>Shah supporter flag
top kek senpai.

>Pan-Iranist Zoroastrian empire
Assuming anyone in Iran would even stand for this, it would effectively ablate any sort of foreign policy with other Muslim states.

>>11921
>greeks
>white

>>11892
>Zoroastrian

protip: the word kuffar is actually meant for zoroastrians.

>>6137
shit happens

>>11921

This. Don't fuck with superior races.

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>>12395

>caucasian

Leftist nomenclature

bit of misinformation here

the ottoman empire had an action radius
they always started their conquests from istambul
and always at spring, around april but rather may
and retired for the year in october at the latest

the further they conquered, the harder it became to expand further since you had less time for action

the first siege of vienna(1529) failed on wasting time for a few weeks under a tiny stronghold defended by 800men

why is important to expand for an empire like the ottoman
because only that guarantees loyalty of the warrior elite which keeps the whole state togather, conquer and divide the new riches

it was bound to fail

>>12610

>not being able to handle simple logistic changes

Meanwhile white Europeans were busy annexing colossal Empires in the New World and beating Asians for trade rights.

>First part of thread
what /his/ could be
>Last part of thread
what /his/ will be

>>12877
It's just one guy.

Remember that it is explicitly against the rules, just report and ignore.

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>>12395
Turks are 5% to 20% mongoloid. and 0.1% to 1% african

>>6629
Tbh senpai, you cant really use the fact that people on balkans didn't like the ottoman empire as a basis that nobody liked the ottoman empire, people on balkans don't even like other people on balkans no matter how similar.

>>12721
those empires were using bamboo sticks

the new world was discovered after the ottomans conquered half of their empire

>le ebin supeliol western faggotry

yea no

>>13844
reminder this kind of post can be reported

general bureaucratic decay from hundreds of years of technological stagnation stemming from regional superiority that disinsentivized technological growth and scientific advances. Then encroaching european interests didn't help as well. It was really the Russians who helped seal the Ottoman fate though through man successive wars that continually drained resources until WWI started and it all fell apart.

>>13844
>>14151

Ouch that saltiness.

So this is how you turks are going to post?
Are you deluded or just doing this out of shitposting principles?

>>13844

>western supremacy

>a meme

We literally colonized your 'Empire' at the end. Like we did the people who used bamboo sticks.
If it hadn't been put on life support by the french it would have been out in the 18th century split between Austria and Russia.

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>over 500 years later and constantinople STILL has not been reclaimed from the turks.

Fucking greeks need to pay denbts and then take back the city and start byzantium 2.0

>>6137
It was a multi-ethnic religious Empire in the age of nation states. That is like fresh meat in prison waiting to be gangraped by a gang of hardened criminals.

>>17631
>> If it hadn't been put on life support by the french it would have been out in the 18th century split between Austria and Russia
what are you talking about the french were Ottoman enemies after 1801

>>18277

Completely, utterly wrong.
Read a book idiot.

>>6137
They thought they could be 3rd man in a fight involving an Anglo

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>>18444
>>18444
Are you serious?

>>6137
1453 is when everything went downhill.

>>20523
that's where it went major uphill

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Turkfag here

It is a combination of islamic influence and weak rulers.

Before late 1600s the successors to the throne were often assigned to important government positions around the empire, but this caused conflicts for succession every time a ruler died between the princes where the fittest heir would survive and rule the empire. Over time (perhaps due to its very violent nature) this system shifted to a "cage system" where the heirs would be locked up under house arrest and weren't allowed to leave the palace. This left the new generation of ottoman rulers weak and slightly mad, of course this caused a power-gap in the empire and caused many rebellions among the military, higher class and provinces far away from istanbul.

One of the other problems was stagnation due to the spread of islamic practices. In the early eras of the turkic nations in anatolia and middle-east were freshly changing from a tengrist to an islamic, this left them open to adopting new ideas and improving their technology far quicker than other arabic/persian nations. even in the early eras of ottoman empire this increased adaptability made them stronger against their foes in the thracia, balkans, black sea and middle-east. As time passed however the adaptation of arabic islam and the idea of superiority made the empire stagnate and become weak against the quickly modernizing western nations.

Overall they were alright i guess, you can tell by how butthurt greeks, armenians, serbians and iranians still are to this day. Look up older turkic empires though, old turkic mythology was pretty based.

>>12799
Caucasian is a shitty term because it stems from outdated assumptions on the origin of non-Black humans. Caucasian comes from the idea that the original proto-Whites were from Central Asia and the original Whites are from the Caucuses. All scientists follow the migration pattern of the Out-of-Africa theory, just differing on whether it happened with humans or pre-humans. It only has any value in leftist circles to weaken the idea of a White, European race.

>>20523

They were doomed after 1303

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>>22783
>Overall they were alright i guess, you can tell by how butthurt greeks, armenians, serbians and iranians still are to this day

How is this any different than the "Every one but Jews are the problem" meme? I mean sure it's kind of lame to be butthurt in this day and age, but a lot of these people had valid criticisms of the Ottomans.

>>25346
people are still fuming over 100 years after the empire collapsed

>>27834
well people are still fuming at the rebel faction 100 years after the collapse of the empire, i mean on the bloodthirsty empires scale ottomans were pretty mid-tier but somehow according to neighboring countries today turks are the root of all evil

>>28022
>mid-tier but somehow according to neighboring countries today turks are the root of all evil
why is it like that?

>>28030
Because for Turks the only way of dealing with dissent was showering everyone with blood.

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>>28030
i don't know probably a combination of religion+alien culture+lost clay+propoganda even though most of anatolian clay was taken over 1000 years ago

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>>6137
Mehmet pls.

>>28081
It was 13th century faget, show us one example of another way to do it.

>>28930
>It was 13th century faget
More like 19th, Mustafa.

>>20523
Greek immigrant?

>>18721

See, you don't know anything about history because you're likely a nationalistic turk teenager. The Revolution episode was a short one in which France antagonised every single one of it's allies due the fall of the Bourbon diplomatic network. Including Spain and Austria.

Read Vergennes's life. Read anything on the diplomacy of the Victorian era. Read about the Crimean war. It's time you teens learn about how France and England kept you on diplomatic and technical life support.

>>6228
Nope, Ottomans and Abbasids were both based
divide and conquer will not work here

The failure of modern Islam was actually due to Wahabbism, which the Ottoman empire was fighting

>>31706
Wahhabism is the poison that fucked up ME.

>>6137
Mongols came in and fucked their shit up hard.

>>31920
mongols only fucked the Arab caliphates up
The Turks were trying to pick up where the Arabs left off
While it is true Mongols really destroyed a lot of Muslim cities, they ironically were involved in spreading Islam in a lot of other places, like China, Russia, Ukraine and ofcourse the Mughal Empire of India etc
The Mongol hordes later became Muslim, which is a pretty funny twist in history
I fucking love /hist/ so much

>>31920
If you're talking about Timurids, they were not mongols. Also many Turks joined Timurids because ottomans were being niggers to other turkish beyliks in anatolia.

>>31993
>>32037
Sorry lads, I thought I was posting in another thread about the Arabs/Middle East.