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How do I interpret this map? I guess I need to brush up on my

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How do I interpret this map? I guess I need to brush up on my feudalism skills some, but how on earth is the Kingdom of France completely different from the Royal Domain of the French King?
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The Royal Domain of the French King is held by the King himself.
The Kingdom of France is all the land that's supposed to owe fealty to the King of France

Regards, Crusader kings pro.
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>>56848
lrn2 vassals

domain of the king is the land the king owns
the realm the king rules is shit ruled by dukes and counts, who serve the king and pledge themselves to him but they rule the land
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The kingdom of france is the territory for the frankish lands. The king is the leader of the kingdom. The king was ordained (loose definition) long ago by royal families. A familial dynasty was attached to the kingship. These royal families thst were not part of the kingly dynasty held lands in return for being loyal to the king. Tldr: the kingdom was under the watch of tge king but he chopped it up and gave it to other royals as appeasement. The king has his own personal lands which is the roya domain or demesne. He exacts tribute for his demesne as well as from his local nobles' lands as well.

That is a poor attempt at explaining a very complex structure, particularly in the situation of france. But i hope it helped.
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>>56848
The Royal Domain is the demense (land which is owned) of a particular Lord. A Kingdom is a title which is the second highest in feudalism (Emperor being higher). So the Royal Domain is the lands which the French King held himself. The Kingdom of France are all the areas which are de jure part of his Kingdom and which are supposed to swear fealty to him as vassals.
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>>56967
>>56996
>>57040

I think I get this. So does this mean that the King of England and the King of France both had equal royal claims to territory in France, and thats why they embarked on a centuries-long conflict over who actually ran it?

Still learning feudalism, thanks a lot for helping!! :)
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>>56848
You need recommendations my friend?
Let me say this though. In medieval history you have to distinguish between the political authority of the king, and the land the king owned. I haven't read my French history, but I going by my experience of England, the king would own massive amounts of land, which he would lease out to nobles or would rent out to peasants directly. So I'm guessing that the Royal Domain is the King's land. The lands outside the Royal Domain were owned by nobles/magnates, gentry (rich farmers with no title bestowed by the king) and free peasants (most peasants being under the thumb of the nobility working on their estates as serfs). However, while the big magnates had quite a free hand in their affairs, they owed fealty to the king and might have to collect taxes for him (although they ALWAYs sent as little tax money as they could) and provide him with military service in return for which the king recognized the big shot lord's legal right to the land and the king also provided protection with forces collected from other parts of the kingdom.
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>>57144
the kings of england and the king of france both fought over the crown of france due to inheritance conflict

england claims the crown via female line of the original (capet?) dynasty but french said fuck that we dont wanna be ruled by some norman/english/occitan king we want this guy from a cadet branch of the dynasty
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>>57144
yes, they both claimed to be the rulers of the Kingdom of France, meaning that the lords of the land had to choose whom to swear their fealty to.

>>57158
let me add also that it was common in medieval political theory that the Royal Domain should provide enough resources to the king for him to run the WHOLE kingdom. The famous phrase was that the king should "live of his own." The reality was much more complex. The king's resources tended to shrink over time, as he sold off his lands or mortgaged them to nobles in order to get immediate cash for fight his wars. This meant he had less and less resources over time to rule the realm, usually leading to debt. This played into the noble's hands, as the King would turn to them for money when he got into debt over wars and stuff. In order to get the loan, however, the nobles would force the king to make crippling concessions (nobles get more land, nobles get control of the courts and peasants in their lands, nobles are immune from punishment, nobles cannot have their land seized by the king, the nobles get to have an assembly to limit the king's decision making on domestic and foreign problems etc. etc.).
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Think of it as a game of thrones thing, amerilard.

Imagine if the Lannister lands were suddenly owned by some city from Essos. That city would still be independant from the seven kingdoms, but about the land it owns in Westeros, it would have to recognize the (distant) authority of King's landing.

Kings of england had to pay hommage to the king of France about the lands they owned in France. Of course a king paying hommage to another was very butthurt-inducing, so sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't.

Our strongest kings conquered most of that angevin shit and forced the english kings to pay hommage about what was left of their continental territories, way before the 100 years war, and way before any dynastic problem between them. Of course then we lost it, reconquered it, lost it again, reconquered it again, etc.

>57144

No. Not at all. Being a landlord in France, not matter how powerful you are, and not matter if you also own a foreign kingdom, didn't give you a right to the french crown.

English kings had a claim because they were related to the french royal family, and because the main line of the french dynasty died. They tried to use both that dynastic claim and what was left of their territories in France to get the french throne.
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>>60884
It's pretty stupid to call non royal non Angevin domains "land under French rule". It gives the false impression that the Angevin were not French.

I'm from Bordeaux and I still get mad at Brits thinking they owned land in France and not England being a French territory. Sure we got buttblasted by Parisians, but that's not a Brit achievement.
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>>56848

>Kingdom of France
>Brittany included

Triggered desu
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>>56848
Keep in mind that kings were the kings of people, not the kings of nations. The last french king still had the title "Rex Frankorum" or King of the Franks.
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If that's what you're trying to ask, the king of england was vassal to the king of france for his land in the kingdom of france
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>>61807
They termed it Rex Frakorum purely to mimic the name of the Roman emperors. The legal status of the king changed over history without whange in title. You shouldn't read too much into it.
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>>61767

I'm from the 47 so I know your feel your dirty 33 (also you can't drive for shit desu senpai).

But I'm too lazy to turn this thread into a proper shitpostingfest about how french were the kings of england.

>>61807

As far I know the first king who stopped called himself King of the Franks, and used King of France instead, was Philippe II Augustus, so ~1200.
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File: France_1154_Eng.jpg (429KB, 1214x1534px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
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>>56848
Plantagenets + Valois = France (not an entity, just a nation)
Valois = Kingdom of France
Plantagenets = Angevin Empire (including England that they owned as an oversea territory)

Wars between Plantagenets and Valois (including the HYW) were merely a civil war between Western France and Eastern France
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Medievalist who has spent 80% of his adult life reading about the historiography of feudalism here

Nearly everything ITT is wrong
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You'd think it would be almost mandatory for someone posting on /his/ to have played Crusader Kings for crying out loud.
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>>64760
>Posts no arguments
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>>57144
Before the start of the HYW, in the context of his French demesne the English king was a vassal of the French king.
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>>57144

The King of England was theoretically a vassal of the King of France as far as his possessions in France went. Of course he refused to act as such, which started all conflicts between both kingdoms of that era, there were more than one, the HYW was the last.
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>>61784
WE BREIZH MAINTENANT
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>>64760

Life well wasted.
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>>56848
Royal domain of the French king : Territory held directly by the king of France.

Other territories in blue : Territories held by vassals of the king of France.

Territories in red, circled in blue : Territories held by the the king of England BUT the king of England is a vassal of the king of France, for theses territories.

Other territories in red : Kingdom of England, held by the king or his vassals.

Think that before inheriting England, the Angevin were vassals of France. But they acquired other territories.
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