Were the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki really nessesary

>>55790
Vae Victis

To be honest, the incendiary bombings of Tokyo were far more lethal to the Japanese spirit, but because of Imperial propaganda didn't have as much impact on the population at the time.

Also, not trying to justify 'muricans or anything, but these were designed to be specifically deployed on areas with low population density. It was more of a display of Western power to the Soviets than anything else.

This topic has been beaten to death. It's pointless to give answers because every war is a tragedy. Every violent death inflicted upon innocents is a disgrace.

>inb4 edgelords come in here and start whining

Everyone has bloodlust, everyone wants to feel like a big man by pushing the button or shooting a gun. But it's futile. We'll never find happiness except in the arms of our family and loved ones. Everything else is a waste of time and breath.

>>55927
>It's pointless to give answers because every war is a tragedy.
Looks like somebody wants to avoid responsibility.

Yes.

In the years leading up to the taking of the home islands themselves, there were two different institutional hierarchies fighting about how to deal with the homeland. The Army and the Navy.

The Navy thought that casualties were more important to morale than the length of the war. The Army thought the opposite.

The Navy plan amounted to starving the islands out, which would be easy to do, considering that Japan wasn't self sufficient in food, and the combination of American submarine commerce raiders (eat your heart out, U-boats) and air dropped mines, as part of the aptly named Operation Starvation had destroyed their merchant shipping. Millions would most certainly have died. The status quo before the bombings would have caused wholesale famine in a matter of months.

The Army plan was Operation Downfall, also aptly named. The casualty estimates for an invasion of the home islands were so high that the initial run of Purple Hearts that the Army ordered for the invasion was enough to cover every US war up to Operation Iraqi Freedom. These estimates, as it turns out, were too low, as the Japanese general staff had correctly predicted landing points and general strategy.

Both sides are incredibly lucky that neither of these plans came into effect, and a new bureaucracy, the USAAF (soon to become the Air Force) was able to put an end to the war before Japan was completely annihilated.

>>56046
>>56046
does it really matter? the winners make the rules and write the history books.

>>55790
Yes. Lives were saved on three sides: the allies, the occupied, and the Japanese.

It wasn't necessary, but America HAD to show off its' new toy.

>>55790
yes not just to save lives but also to intimidate the Soviets to not add Japan in its communist influence

I don't know, would Japan rather be a first world nation, or split like Germany was?

>>57541
>to intimidate the Soviets
should it cost so many lives?

File: 1443743728889.png (493KB, 603x1116px) Image search: [Google]

493KB, 603x1116px

>Nukes dropped
>Thousands died
>Nukes didn't drop and Downfall happens
>Soviets stick their fingers in Americas pie
>Millions die

>>56127
->>55804

>>55790
Yes, it was a crime against humanity.

Made necessary by a long list of crimes against humanity perpetrated by the Imperial Japanese government and it's people.


The nation who initiates war has no grounds for grievances against the defending nation for using any and all means available to defend themselves.

And if you don't want the same, you'd better just cool your damn jets and quit being so gosh darned unfriendly. Damn it!

>>55790
>>55790
It's already been verified that the bombings were unnecessary. Japan had already been reaching out to Russia and Europe for negotiating options.

We wanted to show off our nuclear capability. And it could be argued that it was a good thing, as we now know what hell itself looks like. Nothing compares to the immeasurable suffering of nuclear fallout and radiation poisoning.

'I am become death'

>>55790

Are you fucking kidding me? Are we really going to have 10 of these threads every day even though there's already been hundreds on other boards?

>>56127

Then how do we know when they are lying?

File: 1437883003365.jpg (50KB, 620x387px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 620x387px

>>55790
gooks got what was comin to em

The permanent scientific progess outweighs the temporary moral dilemma

Well, Japan did drop fleas that were carrying the plague in China, so yes.

>>57988
I would argue that the scientific progress was, in fact, humanity's moral progress to never again use those weapons.

>>57987
you, sionist-racist.

>>58004
And England foster opiate addiction and stole Chinese land and wealth.

Let's nuke England.

File: 1442557619992.jpg (111KB, 640x640px) Image search: [Google]

111KB, 640x640px

>>58014
What you don't like Netanyahu, savior of America's Eastern front?

>>58004
did H&N inhabitans drop fleas that were carrying the plague in China?

File: 1410558047077.jpg (163KB, 796x883px) Image search: [Google]

163KB, 796x883px

>>57933
weeb

>>57899
At last one normal person here

>>55790
your question is inherently biased OP. in a perfect world it would be a cut and dried choice between the two options, however at the time things weren't that simple.

in short it was both. the bombings were objectively horrible, and everyone involved had serious moral reservations, the people saying america did it to feel tough are edgelords who don't understand the meaning of difficult decisions. the Japanese were tenacious and simply refused to surrender, every time the Americans conquered an island the death toll (particularly civillian casualties) was skyrocketing. the plan for the invasion of the mainland had total casualties estimated in the 8 digits. the bombings were horrible, but put yourself in the same position and ask yourself what would you do? commit a warcrime and erase 2 cities from the map? or give the order that sends millions of people to their deaths?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

>>58111
in short it was both. the Holocaust was objectively horrible, and everyone involved had serious moral reservations etc., ets, that's what you said

>>58101
It boggles my mind that people can so harshly judge Japan for what it did in SE Asia, but the second anybody mentions the genocide of the native peoples of the Americas, everyone falls silent. Or the torture of enemy militants in the present.

But nah, fuck dem japs cuz they beheaded or soldiers wahhhh.

All because they didn't conform to some bullshit 'rules of war' enacted by countries halfway around the world.

There are no rules in war. Kill everyone and take everything. That is war. And the Japanese were damn fine at it.

>>58192
hold those bombs weeb

>>57988

What progress came from actually nuking the cities? The Alamogordo test (Trinity) had already occurred. We knew one type of bomb would work, and were so certain about the other that we dropped it untested.

Anyway, basically this
>>57933

But it wasn't just that Japan was reaching out. They were also already defeated. The USSBS claimed that air power had done this. The Navy claimed it was the blockade. After the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, even the Japanese militarists realized how fucked they were (as did Truman, who said "Japs fini when that happens" in his diary, referring to the invasion). Either way, their production was down to zero and Hirohito had already decided on surrender after the May 1945 firebombing of Tokyo. The question was just "what terms?" and the US refused to accept the terms wherein Hirohito was guaranteed the throne. Nonetheless, they ended up giving him those terms AFTER he unconditionally surrendered.

Also the "I am become death" quote from the Veda is probably not something Oppie said at the time of the tests.

Truman and Stimson would later claim that the invasion saved 500,000 American lives. A cursory examination of the actual military estimates as presented to Truman (including by MacArthur, who Truman said told him 500k) were a maximum of 40k dead and 250k total wounded/dead/mia if the full invasion of Kyushu and the Tokyo plains became necessary. As noted, Japan would have collapsed anyway, so it's a moot point. They'd already been firebombed though, which killed way more people than the two nukes. Out of the 62 largest Jap cities, 58 had already been bombed to shit. The last 4 were the target list the Interim Committee recommended to Groves. (Except for Kyoto, which Stimson struck off the list because of its religious value or maybe because that was where he honeymooned)

TL;DR 100% unnecessary, didn't even prevent the Soviets from invading Manchuria, didn't even prevent US from having to invade mainland

>>58192

This is the most obvious case of an underage poster I've seen all year.

>>58166
>>>/pol/

>>58166

Yeah those Jews were going to fight to the bitter end..

>>58192

But that was wrong to. Can you reframe your argument without the glaring false equivalence? History isn't a feelings game pal.

File: 1445318975245.gif (1MB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 400x400px

>>55790
See this is what I hate about /his/. You guy's spend all this time trying to validate whether some act was right or wrong due to some universal moral code. What you're truly arguing over is ethics.
The United States was at war and killed civilians, like, a ton of them, expediting the end of the war. If you agree that killing civilians led to a positive outcome, don't be surprised when it happens to us! We made the rules when we dropped that bomb and because we dropped that bomb, we inherently advocated that degree of force.

So sick of this dipshit argument. Wartime is wartime.

>>58192
>But nah, fuck dem japs cuz they beheaded or soldiers wahhhh.
But nah, fuck dem yankiez cuz they mass raped german women wahhhh..
>There are no rules in war. Kill everyone and take everything. That is war. And the Japanese were damn fine at it.
So why do you judge germans then?

>>56124
This is the correct answer.

The A-Bomb was the most humane way to end the war.

>>58215

The subsequent nuclear arms race accelerated nuclear research, materials science, rocketry, space exploration and a lot of other fields. It would have been slowly if there wasn't an impetus like them already being used in wartime.

>>58269
Aside from all the historical inaccuracies of that post, one could argue the a-bomb was the 'most humane way to end ALL war'

They should have demonstrated to the Japs the destructive ability of a nuke by inviting them for a demonstration of its capabilities.

So yes, crime against humanity.

>>58261
and nukes aren't that bad, desu. Just bigger, dirtier bombs.

>>58215
>the US refused to accept the terms wherein Hirohito was guaranteed the throne. Nonetheless, they ended up giving him those terms AFTER he unconditionally surrendered.
I don't know if the real-life events behind the surrender were anything like in the movie Emperor, but I don't think Hirohito would've lost the throne if he had surrendered unconditionally after just the firebombs. The militarists probably would've just had a stronger coup since their morale wouldn't be as squashed as it would be in the face of nukes.

I think the important point is whether nukes were first used at the right time in history against the right kind of target.

>>58192
and white guilt continues to spread to /his/

>>55790
in hindsight I wouldn't go back in time to stop the bombings the world needed to know these weren't just ordinary weapons these things lived up to the name weapon of mass destruction and not something they can just throw at a problem. basically we played with a small fire and got a small burn its better it happened with these nukes then the more powerful ones that were developed later on.

>>58236
My basic point is thus:

1. No one should ever try to make moral judgement on the acts of a country in wartime. The winner should not try to frame their win in some BS moral argument. It is simply "you lost, you die"

2. Justifying the murder of millions of people 'because they done bad' is bullshit. Those who've read the letters, articles, and diaries of those involved know exactly why we dropped the bombs. And it had absolutely nothing to do with US soldiers getting their heads lopped off.

3. Nothing Japan did during wwII was better or worse, morally speaking, than anything any of the other nations did, and yet they are the only ones' whose NATIONAL suffering is justified because of 'moral reasons.'

Germany tried to genocide an entire people, but we didn't agree with allowing Russia to just rape and pillage the fuck out of East Germany following the war.

>>58261
>See this is what I hate about /his/
the board has existed for one day

>>55790
Its the only thing that would have stopped the japs from doing any more insane shit

File: The_USS_Arizona_(BB-39)_burning_after_the_Japanese_attack_on_Pearl_Harbor_-_NARA_195617_-_Edit.jpg (2MB, 2940x2326px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2940x2326px

>>55790
It was a necessary evil. Anyone who argues otherwise is either delusional, or not ruthless enough to understand the cold logic behind the nuclear strikes on Japan.

>>58283

Not true. Read "Stalin and the Bomb." Project ENORMOZ meant the Soviets were already well aware of the bomb. Basically as soon as Stalin learned about it, he started shitting bricks. After the Potsdam conference he ordered all available resources to go into bomb-building. That occurred prior to the dropping of either bomb, obviously.

>>56124
>>58269

Nope, see
>>58215

Hirohito already decided upon surrender, and the firebombing had already killed more people than anything else. The casualty estimates for operation downfall are wrong, and the Japs had only predicted a few of the landing zones iirc. Allow me to quote. Source is Martin J. Sherwin, "A World Destroyed," page 337. Original source is Joint Secretaries, Memorandum for the President, "The Campaign Against Japan" 15 June 1945 (J.W.P.C. 369/1)
>Southern Kyushu - Northwestern Kyushu - Tokyo Plain
>Killed in Action 46,000
>Wounded in Action 170,000
>Missing in Action 4,000
>Total 220,000

>>58353

The coup was bound to fail imo, it basically died out because General Anami told them he wouldn't join. I don't think he did that because of nukes, but because of honor.

They should have just nuked some island off the coast if they needed to prove something.

Also, consider that
>1. Japanese media control meant a lot of people didn't know what happened, and this is why nobody in Nagasaki gave a fuck about the US pamphlets dropped before the bombing
>2. Firebombings already killed more people and destroyed more shit and they knew they'd continue, US air force ran a few hundred sorties between August 6 and August 15
>A lot of the Jap military assumed there were no more bombs (correct)
>The bombs came too close together to give the anti-coup or pro-coup elements time to even organize correctly

>>58415
>but we didn't agree with allowing Russia to just rape and pillage the fuck out of East Germany following the war.
ha-ha
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany

>>58403
"Want war? Okay, you can't use these kinds of weapons, or these kinds of tactics, or this or that. But subversively we'll both use them and the winner will try and play the moral high ground when we enact our reparations on the loser."

Every fucking war of the 20th century you fucking troglodyte.

File: 7j15tXU.jpg (205KB, 566x333px) Image search: [Google]

205KB, 566x333px

>>58426
oh shit I actually had no idea

>>55790
Both

>>58475

How do you explain the post war scramble for scientists that didn't have the same rush pre-bombing? I am aware of Russia and it's nuclear program but it did accelerate it's output faster.

>>55790
Was it necessary? NO. Was it the right thin to do? Yes.

>>58478
Do you know the definition of 'agree'?

As in, we didn't agree with it -but we didn't proactively (I mean really try) to end it?

Proactive as in all out war against Russia.

>>58538
Because they were all in Germany...?

And the one's smart enough to know Russia is a fucking shithole went to the West instead.

>>58538

The Cold War. Both sides immediately focused on technological advancement because they realized, "Oh, shit, we're basically still at war."

File: 1446178182735.jpg (177KB, 1000x1000px) Image search: [Google]

177KB, 1000x1000px

>>58479
what's your point then
You're just trying to be an edgy contrarian siding with Japs rather than Americans I've seen your weak type before

File: p14-bix-mcneil-hirohito-d-20141012[1].jpg (3MB, 2998x2013px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 2998x2013px

After Hiroshima there was a sizable portion of the Japanese cabinet who argued that it was impossible a single bomb had done this, or that if it had then there was no way the US could produce another one. Surrender was not inevitable after Hiroshima; millions were prepared to die repelling an invasion. After Nagasaki they changed their attitude and realized that surrender was necessary, but were still not prepared to do so unconditionally.

After Nagasaki Japan's military chiefs wanted three conditions to surrender: no occupation, to disarm themselves, and to prosecute their own war criminals. They expressed no intention of submitting to an unconditional surrender. The Japanese Cabinet had only one condition: they wanted to know what would happen to the emperor. Even still they debated over surrender until Hirohito broke the deadlocked cabinet HIMSELF on Aug 14 and prepared a surrender statement. Korechika Anami was vehemently against surrender until Hirohito came out in favor of it, and ended up committing suicide after halting an attempted coup against the emperor by a group that wanted to continue fighting (the Kyūjō Incident).

>>58615
Contrarian?

Contrarian to whom? To people with no legitimate knowledge on the subject?

>>58192

>mourning the loss of shrieking stone-age savages

Yeah I bet everyone missed the Huns and the Vandals too.

>>58638

This information is all accurate, yes.

But you forgot that Hirohito had been for surrender since May and was organizing pro-surrender forces himself.

>>58718
Meanwhile delta farce is pissing on the bodies of dead children in talibanistan and bombing the fuck out of hospitals.

Sounds real civvy.

>>55790
The Emperor's surrender speech
>We have ordered Our Government to communicate to the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union that Our Empire accepts the provisions of their Joint Declaration.
>....
>Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should We continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.
The Big Man straight up said "The Bomb is why we surrendered"

File: 1350285592749.jpg (128KB, 560x457px) Image search: [Google]

128KB, 560x457px

Apart from the casualties of a land war in Japan, the nukes had a sobering effect on the USSR's plans for post-war colonization. It was a show of force that the whole world could understand, and once the war was over the tenuous alliance of the West and Russia would no longer hold sway.
The 20th century was full of proxy wars between the US and Soviets/Russia, and even to this day we still have them. But Japan is still essentially a US protectorate and has reaped a tremendous boon while those under the Soviet umbrella still struggle to recover.

>>58789
yeah I was just about to post this

the nukes were a warning to the USSR

>>58665
Japs had inferior technology and got their shit slammed so hard anime became a reality. Now, 70 years later some hoser on the web draws a weak connection to the American genocide of natives to the dropping of the nukes.

But after reading your argument more thoroughly I think we ultimately agree.

>>58261

>>58192
I don't understand this post. It is basically saying that there are no rules to war, but dropping a bomb is bad. If no rules to war then why worry about the Japs, or the Indians, or torture, all part of this no rules war you support for the Japs.

>>58830
They had the most advanced Navy the world had ever seen. Literally outshined anything the West had until later in the war, and only because the West could outproduce Japan faster than Japan could enslave the natives of indochina.

>>58831
I agree I could've phrased this better. My argument is more against people trying to justify the bombs as 'good' than myself justifying them as 'bad'

I think the bombs were morally wrong, but it doesn't matter because war is hell and has no rules. So ultimately, judgement is trite endeavor.