[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / bant / biz / c / can / cgl / ck / cm / co / cock / d / diy / e / fa / fap / fit / fitlit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mlpol / mo / mtv / mu / n / news / o / out / outsoc / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / spa / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vint / vip / vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y ] [Search | Extra juicy! | Home]

Am I edgy in that I see nothing wrong nothing wrong with imperialism?

This is a blue board which means that it's for everybody (Safe For Work content only). If you see any adult content, please report it.

Thread replies: 81
Thread images: 7

File: imp1.jpg (254KB, 739x800px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
imp1.jpg
254KB, 739x800px
Am I edgy in that I see nothing wrong nothing wrong with imperialism? I think unnecessary violence and destruction is evil, and should be avoided, but I do think it's rightful and good for states to expand their sphere as influence as far as they please and can realistically uphold.

I get that this might make some of the conquered people upset but people already don't have a right to cultural/national autonomy anyway; you're born in a state with a culture and civilization that you had no control over so someone imposing a different culture and civilization isn't any different really.
>>
It's how all nations have grown since forever. Anti-imperialism is just a tactic that losers employ to disarm the strong. Beware of pity.
>>
Trying to influence other cultures isn't wrong. What's wrong is exploiting less fortunate nations for their resources.
>>
>you're born in a state with a culture and civilization that you had no control over so someone imposing a different culture and civilization isn't any different really
You're not a slave to your ethnicity though, hence why shit like weeaboos exists.
>>
>>287347
Also I think people only own land and countries and continents so long as they're able to defend it from invaders. For example I think the Americas more rightfully belonged to the colonists because they were able to take it.
>>
>>287363
There was no war over America. The natives got wiped the fuck out by the plague and the settlers pretty much colonized an open land.

Also calling them "original Americans" and shit like that is anachronistic as fuck since they had no concept of America to begin with. It would be like you moving to a patch of grass and then someone arguing you stole it from a bunch of grasshoppers that are living there.
>>
>>287381
>There was no war over America. The natives got wiped the fuck out by the plague and the settlers pretty much colonized an open land.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars

There was plenty of fighting, it was just mostly one-sided since Europeans had gunpowder and steel and the natives didn't.

> It would be like you moving to a patch of grass and then someone arguing you stole it from a bunch of grasshoppers that are living there.
This implies the natives were some kind of wildlife. A grasshopper has no concept of land ownership, humans do.
>>
>>287347
>I think unnecessary violence and destruction is evil, and should be avoided, but I do think it's rightful
>>
>>287407
>A grasshopper has no concept of land ownership, humans do.
But the Indians literally did not. They had no concept of private property and no concept of a country with borders, exactly like a grasshopper.
>>
>>287420
Except that's completely wrong and retarded. Tell me the Haudenosaunee and Wabanaki confederacies weren't organized nations, or the Maya and Aztec, or the Cahokian city-state. Native history is filled with nations and empires and conquests and wars over land.
>>
>>287347
>Am I edgy
Yes
>>
>>287420
Stop learning your fucking history from Disney movies.
>>
>>287428
>Native history is filled with nations and empires and conquests and wars over land.

So then why are Europeans demonized for conquering them and taking their land if they so often took it by force themselves ?
>>
>>287538
You have to understand for most of colonial history the natives were always seen as brutal savages that had no history of their own. The current notion of them being peace-loving hippies is a reaction against that, but swinging too far in the opposite direction. Both views are just as inaccurate.

Native Americans had just as many great empires, migrations, slaves and slavers, wars, rich cultures and traditions, intricate histories, and achievements and shortcomings as any other humans.
>>
>>287357
what if the native peoples of that land didn't even know those resources existed and couldn't extract them?
>>
>>287347
>Am I edgy in that I see nothing wrong nothing wrong with imperialism?
Probably, but there's nothing wrong with edge as long as it's earnest.
>>
>>287347
Imperialism in principle sounds good to be honest. The problem is it always ends up with pretty ugly shit like the famines in India or the whole mess in the Belgian Congo. If people really did it out of a desire to uplift and care for another country it could work.
>>
>>287585
No one ever conquers another land and spends all the resources, lives, and manpower taking it and subduing it out of the kindness of their hearts or for a noble cause (though they might use a noble cause as a PR excuse)
>>
>>287589
Exactly my point. Just like communism, it sounds pretty decent on paper, in real life it's fucking awful/unworkable.
>>
>>287420
>>287347
>>287354

All this assumes that the europeans and their concept of "ownership" and "nations" is optimal state of things.

From a natural viewpoint, it is not. We're overcrowded and we're draining the world's resources.

I'm not gonna judge any historical person for their morals at the time but to suggest that imperialism is an acceptible strategy today is just being an uneducated little 20 year who think you know everything. Imperialism relies heavily on conquering and exploiting lesser nations. That's more or less the definition of it.
>>
>>287629
>From a natural viewpoint, it is not. We're overcrowded and we're draining the world's resources.
As opposed to what, exactly? Doing the same thing inefficiently? Native Americans hunted several species of macrofauna to extinction and China has been exploiting every scrap of arable land it has for thousands of years.
>>
>>287347
>Am I edgy in that I see nothing wrong nothing wrong with imperialism?

It is pretty pants-on-head retarded.

>but I do think it's rightful and good for states to expand their sphere as influence

Expanding your sphere of influence is not the same as being an imperialist. You could, for example, create a great nation of trade and commerce that values true liberty and equality, and influence people that way, instead of by force of arms.
>>
>>287722

I would arguably put China in with the european powers (or Mesopotamian).

The extinct animals you refer to died out during the ice age, along with Wholly mammoths. Not suggesting that humans aren't to blame but they aren't SOLELY to blame. There are clear enviromental upheavals going on at the same time and it's silly to think that didn't have anything to do wth it.
>>
>>287585
>If people really did it out of a desire to uplift and care for another country it could work.

That's the equivalent you befriending a 5/10 woman, help her get herself fit from 250 pounds, help her get a job, fuck her when she feels like it, buy her cosmetic procedures then in the end set her up on a date in which i turned into a happy marriage.

YOU THINK ANY GUY OR GAL IF YOU FLIPPED THE SEXES WOULD DO THAT? WASTE A FUCK TON OF TIME AND MONEY JUST TO IMPROVE A PERSONS LIFE FOR NO SELF BENEFIT?
>>
>>287763
>set her up on a date in which i turned into a happy marriage.

FUCK I mean set her up on a date with another person
>>
>>287747
>I would arguably put China in with the european powers (or Mesopotamian).
On what fucking grounds, exactly?
>>
>>287722
>China has been exploiting every scrap of arable land it has for thousands of years.
>Chinese
>Inefficient farming.

They've been farming The Huanghe/Yangtze river valleys for thousands of years and they've yet turn into deserts son.
>>
>>287789

>On what fucking grounds, exactly?
You mentioned it yourself.
>>
>>287763
> 5/10
> 250 pounds

pick one
>>
>>287347

Leads to conflict. What does some bureaucrat in London know about how to run a city in Africa?
>>
>>287797
The Chinese are exceptionally efficient farmers and my point was that there's nothing "natural" left in China - it's all been farmland for hundreds if not thousands of years and anything that's not farmland, desert or mountains is a city.

>>287812
Where on earth in my post did I imply that China was a European power? The entire point of those comparisons was to point out that peoples who have had virtually zero connection to the European perspective on the world do a fine job of exploiting their own natural resources to the bitter end.
>>
>>287347
>I see nothing wrong nothing wrong with imperialism
There is literally nothing wrong with imperialism
>>
>>287831
Imagine it like playing City/country simulator but in real life
>>
>>287347
>Am I edgy in that I see nothing wrong nothing wrong with imperialism?
You only see it that way because you've been able to reap all of its benefits without having to pay any of its costs.
>>
>>287915
>It plays like Civ 4 Colonization
>Resign from too much micromanagement
>>
>>287960
Dude you have advisors for that shit bro.
You say x and they'll do it for you and try to implement it.

You want all the farmers to grow sugar and absolutely nothing else you can do it no one is stopping you. If they get tired or hungry that sugar will energize them back up.
>>
File: 1447569248856.jpg (110KB, 575x1024px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
1447569248856.jpg
110KB, 575x1024px
>come from a post-colonial country
>our language, culture, customs and legal system were completely subverted
>the language is sort of still there but that's about it
>apparently I should be grateful for this
>>
>>288381
What country?
>>
>>288381
>come from post colonial country (India)
>British ended barbaric tyrannical muslim rule
>they built a shitton of infrastructure, built strong governmental institutions, and brought India into the civilized world
>in this atmosphere, great great grandpops managed to create a quite wealthy business
>spread english language, which allowed my family to easily immigrate to the west

Seriously, I CANNOT understand people who criticize british colonialism in India. Have they just swallowed the marxist kool-aid? Sure, there were ">muh famines" here and there, but you must be a total idiot to believe that pre-colonial India was this magical place where famines never happened. It's just that people didn't bother recording them.
>>
>>287354
>>287347
Edgy.

I'd like to see how much you're still willingly to support imperialism if you, your nation, your culture and your ethnicity was on the receiving end.
>>
>>288416
What country are you from?
>>
>>288416
chav or american sitting in the middle of nowhere guarded by a large body of water

i would love to see him having the same opinion with Ivans as their neighbours
>>
>you're born in a state with a culture and civilization that you had no control

until you grow up, and then your cultures very existence depends on the actions you choose to practice, along with the rest of the ingroup

culture doesn't exist independently of human practice - culture IS human practice
>>
>unnecessary violence and destruction is evil, and should be avoided
>it's rightful and good for states to expand their sphere as influence as far as they please and can realistically uphold

That just goes to show that you're a huge hypocrite and should kill yourself.
>>
>>287347
>I think unnecessary violence and destruction is evil, and should be avoided,
>but I do think it's rightful and good for states to expand their sphere as influence as far as they please and can realistically uphold.
These are mutually exclusive goals. You're edgy and logically inconsistent.
>>287363
If some guy smashes your front window and walks off with your TV does he rightly own it because he was able to take it?
>>
>>287363
So absolutely anyone is justified in shooting you in the back and taking all your stuff because might makes right?
>>
>>287412
Orthodox believers will never understand the necessity of manifest destiny or the mission to civilize.

>>287347
Coming from a middle east country, I can assure you that our culture is backwards and useless.

Seriously, just nuke us. We had secularism for a bit but then European moralfags ruined it when they said "you can't headbag the Islamists".

Now the Islamists are fucking my shit up senpai. All the educated people are leaving for other places.

The moral of this story is don't feel bad for your cultural imperialism. It was really helping my country. Until your moralfags stabbed us in the back and left us at the mercy of Islamists.

T-thanks guise.
>>
>>287538
we europeans aren't niggers, we hold ourselves to a higher, moral and righteous standard
>>
>>287970
>>287831
well seeing as though the englishman at least knows how to run a functioning state - I'd say a hell of a lot more than the africans do
>>
I don't think its very nice but I also cant stand this "judge the past with todays moral standards". Fucking hell, without imperialism we wouldnt have gotten these morals in the first place

Criticise the moderm US all you like but fuck off with this original sin >muh indian americans bullshit.
>>
>>287347
The only true awnser is depends on the country, to be honest.
>>
>>288492
>If some guy smashes your front window and walks off with your TV does he rightly own it because he was able to take it?

No, because I could go to the police and have him arrested and get my TV back. A society that isn't able to protect their own like this will inevitably be conquered, whether it's personal property or national property. If I didn't live in a society with laws like this I would move.
>>
>>287347
I'm exactly the opposite. I think all states should balkanise as much as is reasonable
>>
Imperialism doesn't work because you can't erase the cultural and ethnic differences between the conquerors and the conquered. No matter how hard you try an Indian will still call himself an Indian instead of a British subject. So sooner or later once the discontent builds up nationalism happens and you'd get yourself a decolonization war. Of course you can prevent this by completely destroying the local population like what happened with Native Americans but by that point there's no way you can pretend to be the good guy.
>>
>>287570
That's a bullshit argument and you know it. There weren't oracles that just divined that there was gold in "them there hills". There were natives that had whatever shit they had and greedy fucks wanted it so they took the land cause muh manifest destiny and they promptly set up more mines to force natives to continue to labor in.
>>
File: 2.png (58KB, 636x674px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
2.png
58KB, 636x674px
>>287347
It's offensive to the spooky enlightenment notion of "the rights of da People" in the same way as global communism. "People" should have the "right" to decide who rules the "People" disregardless of what you or anyone else may think because only the People matter.
>>
>>288495
>Yuro culture is good!
>up until the point where I start disagreeing with it

you're the worst kind of mongrel desu lad
>>
>>289167
What about Mexico? Seems like they truly became a mixed nation between the Mexica and the Spanish.
>>
File: but thats wrong.jpg (24KB, 500x380px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
but thats wrong.jpg
24KB, 500x380px
>>287420
They couldn't have had trade without the concept of property, and they had massive trade routes.

>>287538
Because it was a lot more recent in history, relevant to western cultures we live in (as opposed to the Mongolian conquests), and memorable because it came at a time when two halves of the world were meeting.
>>
>>288406
>easily immigrate to the west
Don't bring your entire extended family to live in your basement
Fucking Indians always do that, it's disgusting.
>>
Ever noticed that the same fucking people that say "Imperialist Europe did nothing wrong, it's just the state of things!" lose their shit when immigrants (mostly muslim immigrants) come to live with them?

Dear friends, that's just the "state of things", you're about to get annexed by Syria and then ethnically cleansed and there's nothing wrong with that :^)

Death to all Juice et cetera, right?
>>
File: 90426367.jpg (134KB, 364x406px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
90426367.jpg
134KB, 364x406px
>>289274
>disregardless
>>
>>288858

So if some guy shoots you, rapes your wife and she bears his children that makes him right?

(Who's going to run to the police now? She's probably better off with him anyway)
>>
>>289233
Do you think that we had oracles to discern that? If you posit that we found it through luck, don't you think they should have been able to do the same seeing as they had a far greater time frame to do so?
>>
>>289167
>there's no way you can pretend to be the good guy.
Try and stop us
>>
>>288495
Islamism isn't on the rise because of "moralfags" prohibiting imperialism. These "moralfags" you're referring to, assuming you mean bleeding heart liberals, are the same people who will cry about "doing something about Assad and ISIS!!!" after being bombarded through the media with narratives of le chemical weapons, le WMD, le civilians, le genocides, and so on. What it really means is replace whatever 'evil dictator' the US has pointed out with a favored partner which happens to be Islamist many times.
>>
File: Afrikaner.jpg (30KB, 136x396px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
Afrikaner.jpg
30KB, 136x396px
>>287347
Many ex-colonies fared better before they gained independence.

Africa being colonized was a necessary evil. Whites needed to dominate it; if you leave nigs to fend for themselves, they start killing each other, with frequent coup d'etats.

The liberal argument you hear about that is "duhh of course they can't take care of themselves, due to centuries of whitey taking everything from them!" but let's be honest here, there's African nations which have received the proper chances to grow as a non-shitty state yet the nigs fucked it up for themselves.

The best example is South Africa once Apartheid ended. It's the murder & rape capital of the world.

Africa in general needs a babysitter because Africans have proven they can't build a proper modern state without help. Altogether Africa fails at civilization and taking their lands is doing them a favor.

>inb4 WE WUZ KINGS N SHIT
>>
>>287357
Why is it wrong?
>>
>>288501
You brought the world into 2 wars.
>>
>>292819
I saw this copy pasta before.
>>
>>289586
Indians are the filthiest, most loathsome race of humanity ever.
>>
>>292913
> b-b-b-but it's a copy-pasta!
>>
>>293673
Just saying I saw it before no need to throw a fit bub.
>>
There was nothing wrong with imperialism and colonialism.
They are just a convenient excuse for people in shitholes to avoid responsibility for the state of their nations.
>>
>>287407
The Aboriginals here in Australia had no concept of land ownership and yet somehow it was still theirs to be stolen.
>>
>>293733
Lol really Terra nulius?

Abos fought over shit like land.
>>
>>288416

Are you fucking retarded? The fact that I'm on the beneficial end is why I'm happy. Do you honestly think the first world would be as amazing as it is without imperialism ?
>>
>>292906
The only difference between any european war and WW1 was that we owned the world by then.
>>
On one hand it's a shitty thing to do. On the other hand I wouldn't exist, or if I did I would be living in a dirt hole in aztec mexico.
>>
>>293794
Then you guys proceeded to fuck yourselves over which led to Ussr and USA becoming the top contenders on top of losing your colonies although the loss in power was more of bigger loss.
>>
>>293814
Endless what ifs in the grand scheme of things.

Some unnaturally hardy priests on a few boats educating the upper class and spreading catholicism from the top down?
Thread posts: 81
Thread images: 7


[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / bant / biz / c / can / cgl / ck / cm / co / cock / d / diy / e / fa / fap / fit / fitlit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mlpol / mo / mtv / mu / n / news / o / out / outsoc / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / spa / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vint / vip / vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y] [Search | Top | Home]
Please support this website by donating Bitcoins to 16mKtbZiwW52BLkibtCr8jUg2KVUMTxVQ5
If a post contains copyrighted or illegal content, please click on that post's [Report] button and fill out a post removal request
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows an archive of their content. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.