If 'history was written by the victors,' why is Marie

it gets written by victors and then their victors rewrite it to say the opposite for political reasons

>>286921
Why would the victors, the revolutionaries, rewrite it so they weren't sympathetic?

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>Robespierre
>a victor

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>>286947
a victor over Marie Antoinette, anyway

>>286901
>implying Robespierre won the revolution
If only...

>>286954
Both get demonized, retard.

Marie Antoinette is the spoiled clueless fat princess while Robespierre is the evil tyrant.

>>286901

Because the Revolutionary state got crushed, and then reactionaries wrote the history.


A better question would be

>If 'history was written by the victors', then why did the "stabbed in the back myth" become a thing?

>>286974
socialists are keks thats all there is to it

>>286974
>Revolutionary state got crushed
When? Napoopan was the only logical outcome of the revolution.

1) The 'victor' train didn't end in 1793. In the 19th century, the Bourbon Restoration made sure that a lot of sympathetic accounts of the royal family were published in France and abroad. Not necessarily false accounts, but the ratio of accounts between Marie Antoinette & revolutionaries was not nearly equal. Most 19th century novels set during the revolution also followed the "poor queen, mean revolutionaries" formula, further cementing the idea that aristocrats/nobles are automatically sympathetic people brutally killed by terrible bloodthirst revolutionaries.

2) It's pretty easy to be sympathetic when you're a relatively lovely queen who began her life in comfort, grew to adulthood within great luxury and extravagance, and ended it imprisoned, nearly emaciated and wearing mourning clothing that was falling to pieces, separated from your children, sentenced to death.

3) It's a lot easier to mend the reputation of Marie Antoinette, who has had her supporters and defenders literally since the day she was executed, who left behind letters, who was survived by some family and companions who could write about her, than to tackle the reputation of Robespierre whose real life and actions have been absolutely bogged down in reactionary propaganda released by his enemies and his few surviving contemporaries who wanted to make sure they weren't next. Most of the people who might defend Robespierre were killed with him, and never lived to the onslaught of "hey you're old now, write us your memoirs of the Revolution" trend of the 19th century. And if someone does want to tackle his reputation by using his actual letters and the real reports of that time that give a better idea of who he was than Simon Schama or The HIstory Channel, you basically have to stick your neck out (no pun intended) and say: "Look, every major book on the Revolution is wrong." Not many people are willing to do that--and most people aren't taken seriously.

>>286974
>Because the Revolutionary state got crushed, and then reactionaries wrote the history.

Kek.

>>287013
So, basically, France invented the book version of the Mexican telenovela.

>>286901

Nobody views Marie Antoinette as anything other but a fool. Anyone who knows only one thing of Marie Antoinette knows that one quote:

"Why don't they all just eat cakes?"

While it's probably false, it's still all they know about her. History remembers her as a clueless and spoiled Austrian good-for-nothing.

Why do Austrian expatriates always end up in trouble?

>>287682
>everybody
>nobody

Why do people make all encompassing statements that are easily proven false?

>>287682
>Nobody views Marie Antoinette as anything other but a fool.
>google Marie Antoinette reputation
>literally a bunch of articles saying otherwise

>>286995
>the way history played out is the only logical way that history could have played out

I've got an idea why don't you fuck off with those shit memes

>>286901
Because the Restauration also happened.

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>tfw Marie Antoinette's daughter ended up hated and lampooned like her mother

>>286933
1. Robespierre lost hard.
2. The counter-revolutionaries won at the end of the revolutionary wars.

>>287682
First of all, she never said that.
Second of all, the original story of what she said (though, as I said, didn't happen) was that she said "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche."
Which, translated, basically meant that she was saying "Well if they're hungry, let them have some of the good stuff," which wasn't her being stupid and out of touch, she was trying to be charitable.
Marie Antoinette is demonized for no reason, she was at heart a kind person in a bad position.

>>286901
If history is written by the victors, then why are the Indian wars considered a "genocide" and everybody and their mother are 1/16 cherokee???

Maria Antonietta has a bad reputation. She is known as clueless and there is the "let them eat cake" thing that she never said.

In practice, she was not a bad person and Robespierre executed a lot of people.

>>290554
>Robespierre executed a lot of people.

I didn't known Robespierre had a part time job on the scaffold.

>>290521
To be fair, there are valid criticisms to make of Marie Antoinette--but apathy, cruelty or ignorance of the poor is not really one of them. She was a kind woman. She adopted several orphaned children including an African boy given to her as a 'fancy servant gift' who she instead had installed in a regular household and paid for a real education, she cared for several peasant families, during times of bread shortages she donated money and firewood, she paid for young women's dowries and child-care after her own was born, she instilled a sense of charity and humbleness in her children by having them wait on peasants and give up toys for holidays because people needed food, etc etc etc.


But. She also steered Louis XVI in the wrong direction by letting her favorite's political inner circle influence him during a period of grief, aka "How to Fuck Up the Estates General 101." She also gave away at least one French military position to the Austrian ambassador, resulting in French deaths. She also played both teams after the failed flight to Varennes, lying about her and the king's intentions in order to win over some of the more moderate people in the new government who she wanted to push things back towards royal favor; those moderate people ended up executed later in for their involvement with her.

All royalty deserves to die

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>>286901

Marie did nothing wrong.

>>290500
>2. The counter-revolutionaries won at the end of the revolutionary wars.
The course of western history would seem to suggest otherwise.

>>291089
>All royalty deserves to die

>"Elevating people based on circumstances of their birth, beyond their control, is wrong"
>"Killing people based on circumstances of their birth, beyond their control, is totally OK"

I bet you feel edgy.

>>287682
has someone made a meme out of this yet? like the wwi /hitler one?

>>286901
>Robespierre

>victor

If only.

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>no one's posted this yet

for shame

The French Revolution was a mistake.

>>286901
Perhaps the rich were ultimately victorious?

Again.

>>291179
The revolutionaries won in the broader, more esoteric long term sense.

But for the wars themselves, the counter-revolutionary royalists won.

>>291035
>She also gave away at least one French military position to the Austrian ambassador,
treacher then.

>>290521
>demonized for no reason
The fact she's been slandered doesn't make her innocent, she always was more an infante of Austria more than then queen of France.

>>291089

loser

>>286901
Because although she was a spoiled bitch she likely was retarded and generally innocent in terms of the shit that caused the revolution and it's bloody results.

Also because she's a woman.

>>286921
Is that why history is full of such assholes?

>>286901
>If 'history was written by the victors,'
it isn"t

>>295138
Then why do we call Alexander of Greece "the Great"? Why is Hitler regarded as evil incarnate?

CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS!

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>>286901
you know what happened to the revolution right?

The Royalty enslaved Europe. Napoleon should have won.

>>286901
>generally received sympathetically
not in mainstream culture
>let them eat le cake

>>296673
compare the number of sympathetic, some to the point of coddling, movies/biographies/fiction books/etc for Marie Antoinette compared to others.

>>291035
>She adopted several orphaned children including an African boy given to her as a 'fancy servant gift' who she instead had installed in a regular household and paid for a real education,

fun fact: the royal family paid for him to attend a boarding school until they were imprisoned in late 1792. he was thrown out on the streets after their imprisonment (the other adopted children were taken in by others, at least) and he died of starvation.

>>298567
>he died of starvation.
at what age ?

>>299328
He died in 1796 at the age of 14.

>>298567
not quite as drastic as dying of starvation on the streets, but he (Jean Amilcar) did die due to complications from poor health partially caused by a lack of care and food. After the royal family was imprisoned and could no longer pay, the schoolmaster petitioned the National Convention to pay for Jean's lodging at the school. They never bothered to answer his letters, and the schoolmaster eventually had to send Jean away because he couldn't afford to feed or board him for free. The schoolmaster did secure Jean small position at an administrative office, but he had to board elsewhere and like many people in France at this time (1795 was a time of legitimate famine) he couldn't get much to eat. In 1796 the newest government finally answered the schoolmasters letters and agreed to give the child a pension for schooling, and he was installed at a trade school for painters due to his talent for drawing. But he took ill and died several weeks later. Some sources say tuberculosis (which would have been tragically coincidental, since Marie Antoinette's actual son died from tuberculosis complicated by ill treatment) and others simply say he was one of the many who died from the effects of the previous famine.

Because we maintain a society that fetishizes nobles.

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>>302069
to be fair

they're hot