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For a right-wing glorifying site like 4chan there is surprisingly

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For a right-wing glorifying site like 4chan there is surprisingly little mention of this man. Was he really an evil mastermind or just a wannabe bumbler?
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He was effective at rallying a populace and making people feel like communism was old school stuff. Things probably would have turned out fine for him if the world wasn't in the shape it was in. Despite the rhetoric, war was something he couldn't do. His ideology gutted the military at the same time it glorified it.

He was however a living cartoon character and I'm glad he existed.
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>Was he really an evil mastermind

He pioneered fascism, that says enough.
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>>275538
>For a right-wing glorifying site like 4chan
That's really only /pol/'s stormniggers. The rest of 4chan just thinks Hitler is funny and edgy, and Nazi uniforms and shit look cool.
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>>275618
Back in my day we said "jews did WTC" as a joke, now we have an entire board of people that actually believe it.
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>>275538
He was great before giving up Austria and becoming Hitler's butt buddy.

Italy was a half-assed semi-industrial shithole that couldn't even deal with bushmen wielding salvaged rifles, had disease infested swamps near important urban centers, inadequate rail infrastructure, and was rife with organized crime.

They weren't ready for the war when they joined, but despite how bad they were, they'd have actually been worse had they gone to war around the same time but with 18 years of the "democracy" behind them.

Peacetime Mussolini > Pre-Mussolini do-nothing inept government > Wartime Mussolini
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>>275538
He was a pretty cool guy. If it wasn't for Hitler and his bumbling wars of conquest and genocide, Mussolini would probably be remembered fondly.
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>>275618
You can keep trying to make this a lefty echo-chamber but it will never happen
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He didn't deserve his death.
He really shouldn't have went to War at all.
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>>275654
/pol/ tried to dominate discussion for first several days and failed. Now all that's left are people who want to discuss circular logic religion. I'm sorry that /pol/ is a minority on this website you feel oppressed when you on a board that you and your like are not the majority, just like everywhere else.
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>>275654
>They say while wanting a retard echo chamber

Inb4 >>>reddit >>>tumblr or whatever the fuck else is out there.

Nobody wants a circle jerk more than stormfags
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>>275664
This. Beni-san is a tragic figure desu~
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The only good thing he do was push out the Mafia
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>>275618
>the right can't think Hitler is funny and edgy
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Very few understand Mussolini and that his ideology was reasonably different from Hitler's. Mussolini was probably the more intellectual figure, he just really ballsed up and dealt his cards too quick.

Before the war he was actually an effective leader and had helped create a sustainable economy (which Hitler had not). He also helped the South greatly by removing the Mafia and trying to industrialise it (somewhat).
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From what I read Mussolini actually had a really poor work ethic despite his public image.
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>>275706
>created a sustainable economy
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/lit/ and /pol/ lurker here.

He was pretty based but Italians were pretty happy people that were renowned for being lazy and bd fighters. Would've been better if Italy was like Spain and stayed neutral.

>>275603
Hide post for being retarded.

>>275618
>hurrr durr storm niggers!

I thought the rest of the Chan used Hitler glorification to piss off black people?

>>275632
Maybe they did maybe didn't. It certainly benefitted them desu

>>275642
>Hitler
>Not on the defensive the entire war
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>>275726

prove me wrong.
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>>275700
They can, but that doesn't mean everyone who thinks Hitler is funny and edgy is a righty. Just accept it. Outside of stormnigger.com, /pol/, /r9k/ and #gamersgate the internet is a pretty lefty place.
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>>275729
>>>Hitler
>>Not on the defensive the entire war
I'm sympathetic towards him but even I admit he was going full steam forward at several points.
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>>275729
>Not on the defensive the entire war

After invading all of Europe?
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>>275729
>le hitler did nothing wrong XD
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>>275729
>Chan used Hitler glorification to piss off black people?
You must be pretty new to 4chan, probably post 2010.
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>>275735
You're right if you mean the Eastern front.

But some tensions rose and caused a fight between Germany and Poland and then France and Britain declared war but got BTFO.
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>>275737

b-b-but Germans were being massacred in Poland!
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>>275730
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Italy_under_fascism
Maybe it was sustainable but it was still very shitty
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>>275749

>Wikipedia

See you didn't even know yourself and had to look it up and read about it on the most basic website possible. You should be ashamed.
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>>275742
2012.

I'm newfag then oh well.

>>275740
>"le meme"
Back to reddit
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>>275755
Thats because its extremely easy to find how shit the economy was, you don't need to dig deep
You can check wikipedias sources if you want
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>>275725
Well of course he did. He was Italian.
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>>275765
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Italy_under_fascism

>check the the sources
>8 sources
>mostly from one obscure French guy
>an anarcho-communist writer

Honestly mate, you're retarded.
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>>275775
Do you have any sources for your statement?
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Daniel Guérin.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/guerin/guerincolworks.html

Has three sources on the page.
That's like sourcing fucking George Lincoln Rockwell to talk about Israel.
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>>275538
Mussolini was an absolute eejit.

Literally, every time he thought he was being a pragmatic sneaky mastermind (which was all the time) he was just shooting himself in the foot.
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>>275729
>>>/pol/
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>>275725
Hitler was notoriously lazy too though.
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>>275538
can someone explain this picture to me? why does he have the expression on his face? was this when he was killed at the gas station or something?
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He was smarter than Hitler
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>>275986
All really smart people are lazy in one way or another.
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>>275997

Nah that's just the face he made when he was taking a fat dictator shit.
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>>275748
were they not?
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>>276001
>hitler
>smart
nope.
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>>275538
I heard trains arrived in time when he was in charge.
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>>275654
>You can keep trying to make this a lefty echo-chamber but it will never happen
Funnily enough, its /pol/ that tries to make this board an echochamber what with all the super-repetitive WHAT RACE WAS EGYPT/HOW COULD THE NAZIS WIN?/ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF EVIL threads.
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>>276012
yeah nevermind i found a picture of him dead. did they beat his face to a pulp or is that part of the...decaying process
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>>276062
Not to mention the butthurt traditionalists hijacking any thread that is even just slightly related to women.
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Hmm I just read about the Italo-Ethiopian war and it seems that maybe Mussolini din du nuffin after all. Of course the invasion was wrong but the famous poison gas was apparently only used because the Ethiopians were using banned Dum Dum bullets and allegedly castrating captured prisoners.
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>>275538
He wasn't so bad while his brother was alive to keep him grounded in private, but once his brother died he had no one he's listen to and bought his own bullshit, allied with Hitler, implemented the race laws, basically all of the things he did wrong.

Could have been alright.
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>>276064
wow he had enemies
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>>276086
>Hmm I just read about the Italo-Ethiopian war and it seems that maybe Mussolini din du nuffin after all
>Join League of Nations
>League of Nations says "No more Colonizing people. Those who have Colonies keep what you have."
>Italy colonizes Ethiopia/Tries to
Mussolini did plenty wrong.
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>>276142
There is wrong and there is evil. being a colonialist shithead in 1935 was wrong but it wasn't evil.
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>>276064
Fucking Communists man. Christ.
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>>276100
well according to wiki some communist partisans captured him and they executed him and his mistress a few days later on command from the commi hq. the next morning the bodies were brought into milan with other executed fascists and put on a piazza where:

>Their bodies were left in a heap, and by 9 am a considerable crowd had gathered. The corpses were pelted with vegetables, spat at, urinated on, shot at and kicked; Mussolini's face was disfigured by beatings.[41][42] An American eye witness described the crowd as "sinister, depraved, out of control".[42] After a while, the bodies were hoisted up on to the metal girder framework of a half-built Standard Oil service station, and hung upside down on meat hooks.[41][42][43] This mode of hanging had been used in northern Italy since medieval times to stress the "infamy" of the hanged. However, the reason given by those involved in hanging Mussolini and the others in this way was to protect the bodies from the mob. Movie footage of what happened appears to confirm that to be the case

heres a better picture if the first one wasn't enough
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>>276204
heres them hanging on the meathooks
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>>276142

He did instantly prove the uselessness of the League of Nations.
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>>276204
>and his mistress

The jewish girl that wrote his biography?
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If you were a Jew you were pretty safe in Italy until Germany invaded. The worst he did was send you to a minimum security prison for political prisoners.
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>>276239
no that was another mistress. mussolini had alot of them
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>>276244

It's because, for better or worse, the Jews have always been a part of Italian society. A lot of them weren't seen as parasites like in most countries. Another part of it is an "Italian first, Jewish second" mindset even among the Jews there.

Another thing was that in 1938 the Pope of the time decreed you can't call yourself catholic if you're an anti-semite. And when the pope talks, the Italians listen.
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He was a dictator, and did dictator things. Removing political enemies and people who didn't agree with him, controlling the media etc. Not exactly a saint.
He tried to turn Italy into an autarchy, without the resources to pull it off (admittedly he spurred the economy), same with the war (but that was Hitler being in a hurry).
Given this, he wasn't that bad as a ruler. Had he taken the ally side sooner he'd have probably kept his position and avoided getting rekt by the mob
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>>276312
>Had he taken the ally side sooner
But he did take the allies side, Britain and France loved him in the 20s and early 30s. Shit only soured up when he invaded Ethiopia and franco-brit sjw started griefing so hard the Hoare Laval proposal was retired. After that, being isolated from the allies, he kinda had to side to Hitler not to be left alone and resourceless.
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>>276265
The sad part is the same mentality was prevalent among Jews in Germany. Many simply considered themselves German.

Shame what happened with the Communists.
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>>276265
>Another part of it is an "Italian first, Jewish second" mindset even among the Jews there.
But that was true in Germany.
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>>276334
Even saying "many" is an understatement. It was literally the vast majority, and even throughout WW1 and the interwar years they worked hard and actively to prove it. Heck a slightly greater than average proportion when compared to other ethnicities of Jewish men fought in WW1 for Germany.
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>>276336

Yeah but the difference is there weren't a bunch of attempted coups in Italy in the 20s whose leaders just happened to be Jews, souring the whole thing.

Because Jewish or Catholic, you live in Italy long enough and you will inherit its lazyness.
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>>276381
Half Italian here. Can confirm this.
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Someone brought it up in a previous thread about him, but Mussolini understood something about fascism that Hitler didn't. It was something along the lines of how because fascism was the first postmodern governmental policy, it had to come with a level of being bombastic, overdone, and have an almost comical level of appearance despite being outwardly oppressive as seen in pic related. Which is how we got stuff like >>275592

The nazis didn't get that. They lacked the sense of humor to make fascism work.
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It's funny. Hitler absolutely idolized Mussolini as a political speaker and leader, and even tried to model his own (failed) coup after Benito's.

Then when it turned out, surprise surprise, the Italians are in fact just as shit at fighting wars as they had been for a long time, he got a whole "what happened to the guy I looked up to?" moment. Nevermind that Nazi Germany was a very different place from Fascist Italy (for one Benito never had absolute power, the King had the right to depose him any time he wanted, which he did in the end).
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>>275538

Well there WAS that time when a parliament member spoke against him and Mussolini had the guy kidnapped, beaten up, and then stabbed,

And then bragged about it to the rest of Parliament with a "Yeah, what are you gonna do about it?" tone.
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>>275632
It still is a joke, Stormfags just take it seriously because they're living jokes themselves.
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>>275742
Oldfags know we used to post Hitler ironically, it became less fun when idiots started to take that autistic Austrian seriously.
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>>275592
>and making people feel like communism was old school stuff

It wasn't simply that. The king and most of parliament were scared shitless of a potential communist revolution being on the way (considering the fact that workers and peasants had been striking, revolting and taking over factories up and down Italy for the previous two years, look up Biennio Rosso). Mussolini promised that if he was allowed to rule with an iron fist, the communists would never be able to take root in Italy.

The king saw what happened in Russia when the communists weren't stopped, so Mussolini sounded like the better choice.
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>>276025
No. Learn basic history
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>>276334
>>276341
The major issue being that even if a majority were integrators (which contemporaries like Churchill doubted criticizing the continental groups vis a vis the integrated anglo ones) with it there was still a sizable enough chunk that didn't that you could point to as being hugely overrepresented in the Communist movements in Russia, Germany, Hungary, Poland etc.
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>>276421
Not to mention Mussolini wasn't all to fond of Hitler at first, made pretty derogatory remarks about Germans as a whole. Something along the lines of while Italians were building the Roman Empire, Germans were sitting around in a forest doing fuck all or just being cannon fodder for the aforementioned Italians.
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>>276716
I guess the Zionist's and the really nasty Jews involved in the Communist movements ruined it for the honest ones. Though Germany in WWII still had like 150,000 soldiers of mixed Jewish ancestry in the Wehrmacht. Even some pretty high military officials were half Jews.
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>>275538
Mussolini was a leftist though
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>>276334
It's a shame what happened to the jews.

The communists? Awwww... you think you're people. SO CUTE!
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>>275538
>Right wing

First of all, if it is a right wing philosophy, don't lump is in with the fascists. Secondly, it's not right wing. It's a reformist socialist heresy.
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>>276421
Why did Mussolini never get rid of the king? Like when I read that he basically got sacked I was like "wow one of the baddest dictators in history was actually an employee"
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>>277216
Neither did Franco.
But why would they, being the head of government is more important than a head of state (see Merkel and Gauck, for a Republican example).
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>>277216
>Why did Mussolini never get rid of the king?
Because of the military. Basically the king still owned the army's loyalty, mostly because the generals wanted to be sure they wouldn't just be replaced by party members.
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>>277240
Franco never got rid of the king because there wasn't any at the time.
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>Mussolini was a good guy
>dindu nothing


I'd just like to mention that the Italian treatment of minorities during their fascist period was pretty horrible (italianisation, supression of minority rights/languages, public shootings, etc.).
Not exactly nazi tier, but harsh enough that it spawned literal terrorist organisations to fight their regime.
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>>275689
>gets rid of the Mafia
>only for the Allies to restore it later

muh oppression
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>>275674
>this person doesn't want one kind of echo chamber
>therefore they must want the opposite kind!
Maybe they just want people to be free to say what they want, regardless of political affiliation?
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>>276452
I'm sorry that people having different opinions to you upsets you so much anon, maybe it'll get better after you leave high school.
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>>276068
you mean triggered beta white knights getting blown the fuck out when someone doesn't out women on a pedestal like them
that was fun
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>>275538
He could be the hero that everyone deserves

>Italians loved him
>Very charismatic
>Produced what Italy is today geographically
>Fixed relations with Vatican
>Destroyed the mafia

But God damn Italians are fucking lazy and was the cause of their loss
That and they joined Hitler
Seriously? The Allies liked the guy and would be better if he joined the Allies
If he pushed the Italians go full ROMAN LEGION he has a chance winning it if he has the Allies
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This fucking board is a joke, where do you even get all this bullshit, wikipedia and Stormfront?

Maybe you should actually read some history books before posting internet rumours and memes here.

Mussolini was nothing more than a caricatural dictator, he did literally nothing good for the Italian society, his economical plans were a trainwreck worse than abenomics, he couldn't win a war even if the other side surrendered, he didn't care about 70% of the italian territory and populace and he actually reinstated the church giving them more power than they ever had since the 17nth century, he destroyed our "nation" so thouroughly we're literally still suffering from the organizations he created like the SIAE, he was cancer of the highest degree.

He came to power by killing and maiming the opposition and through massive advertisement and blatantly false propaganda meant to sway a population that had no access to any form of education and was further enslaved by the church who supported him through and through, it was a literal nightmare.
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>>276381
>a bunch

There was exactly one that failed embarrassingly, with little loss of innocent life. If that's the standard you need to undoing every good thing they did, the Germans should have hated Hitler just as much. HIS failed coup didn't even last two days.
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>>276716
>Hungary
It's interesting, Admiral Horthy actually makes a note of that in his memoirs. He mentions how Bela Kun and a large portion of the Communist leadership was Jewish. But he also mentions how the first ones to speak out against the Communists were the non-Bolshievik Jews, and how they were the loudest as well.

Either he had the shame to feel bad about what he did later during the war, or the Hungarians could make the distinction that not all Jews were Communists unlike the Germans.
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>>277365
>Maybe they just want people to be free to say what they want, regardless of political affiliation?
>implying any remotely left-wing posts on our right-wing boards aren't shitposted to oblivion
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>>275538
>Was he really an evil mastermind or just a wannabe bumbler?
Neither, he was a good mastermind.
>>
Italian historyfag here.
Mussolini was loved by elite and bourgeouisie. Italy wsn't a Republic, there was a king. Mussolini had a treaty with the Vatican. He initially was a Socialist but then after WWI became a nationalist/bellicist.
Italian people loved him for a while. not everyone. In fact, he came to power by intimaditing, killing and exiling the vast socialist movement that was spreading in Italy, with the occupations of industries (there was also a soviet in Turin in 1919).
But he was a piece of shit, and when he put Italy into war he lost the support from lower class italianas, form Monarchy and the Army. Only the most extremist followed him in the puppet republico of Salò.

Go watch Salò of Pasolini. It is a great allegory of the final days of the regime.

I am pretty keen on the subject so if you have any question feel free to ask.
p.s.
the pics of him hangin is great. Popular trial after a tragic war. Like Khadafi three years ago.
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He was really naive when it came to war.
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>>276844
I think you misunderstand. It's a shame the Communists ruined it for the rest of them is what I meant.
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>>277298
Translation?
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>>277984
Attention!
It is prohibited in the most absolute manner to sing or speak in the Slav language in public places or on the roads of Dignano.
Even in shops of any kind ONLY THE ITALIAN LANGUAGE may be used.
We Squadristi, with persuasive methods, will make you respect the present order.
- The Squadristi
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>>277962
Was he autistic? He sure seemed like it.
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>>277984
"It is strictly prohibited to talk in salvic languages into the streets and halls of Dignano. In the shops too you have to use ITALIAN LANGUAGE ONLY.
We Fascists, with persuasive methods, will make sure that this order is going to be respected".
it is something very common during the fascist occupation of istria and dalmatia. they bombed slavs youth center, they destroyed their cemeteries.
what >>277298 is saying is right. Mussolini was a tyrant that killed socialists, salvs, ethiopians, jews. Mussolini was shit. Squadristi, the fascist gangs were pure evil. sometimes worse than nazis.
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>>275538
right wing = Nazi

sick meme bra, even on /pol/ most of that type of stuff is either trolls or tinfoilers
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>>278006
non he wasn't autistic, he was a fucking chad. women loved him. he was the master Chad, always showing his power and masculinity and portraying his enemies as beta neets
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>>276720

Oh Mussolini couldn't STAND Hitler. Remember, he threatened to put the Italian Army between Austria and Germany to preserve Austria's sovereignty, because the Chancellor of Austria was a close personal friend of Benito's.

And he thought he was a shitty artist.

>>277216

For one, the Italian Army was never not loyal to the king. And second, the dude was old. It's not like he was someone that made policy decisions a lot.
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>>275729
>/lit/ and /pol/ lurker

Please stick to /pol/
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>>277891
You have a right to post not a right to not be disagreed with. Having your posts "shitposted to oblivion" (whatever the hell that means) is still completely different to having them censored. Learn to put up with it buttercup, if you really can't handle it maybe you should try some other website like tumblr or reddit, I've heard those are ran more in a style you'd like. Perhaps you should go there, now.
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>>277482
Hello. can you qualify that statement with citations beyond your self-evident butthurt?
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>>278429
i'm not op but I'm an italian historyfag and i can tell you he is right.
Only good thing was architecture. Mussolini was a silly chad who disrupted his country.
One example: in my city of Palermo we had a great physics professor, Emilio Segrè. He worked in SIcily where he found the element Tecnetium.
>mfw he was jew and fled to the USA
>mfw Sicily is poor and miserable.

Sicily was full of industries and merchants from all over the world. Mussolini's autarchy closed the borders and prevented the development of Sicilian economy and culture.
if you want sourcesm check classics Defelice, PAvone or Mack Smith (a bit dated but a good read). If you want to focus on football politics during fascism, read english historian John Foot.
For what concerns architecture, Fascismo di Pietra is a great book and it was translated in english I suppose.
Don't forget: Mussolini was a fanatic who killed and slaughtered former friends and colleagues. He attacked Ethiopia, the first idiot to attack another sovereign state, bringing death and chemical warfare against innocent Ethiopians and Lybians
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>>278429
>Hello. can you qualify that statement with citations beyond your self-evident butthurt?
Literally every book about Italian history?

Do you even study or have an interest in history or you come here to regurgitate whatever /pol/ says?

Mussolini was a fucking disaster of a leader, the only people who had some sort of benefit from Fascism were a few artists who were his personal friends and/or protegès and maybe, just maybe the Fiat.
He did fucking nothing to raise the level of instruction of the populace, if not the actual contrary since if you weren't a member of the fascist party you could not have a job, which made most teachers and researchers of the time abandon the country.
He killed everyone who disagreed with him even when they were on his side and were absolutely fucking right, he became Hitler's dog and made the Racial Laws which further impoverished the cultural environment since the vast majority of eminent researchers and professors who didn't flee from the country already was of Jewish descendance or had Jewish relatives, like Enrico Fermi.
The railroad infrastructures he built were years beyond those of other nations but they were still glorified as the best thing ever, he declared illegal any kind of radiocommunication that wasn't Italian or part of the axis, he was so fucking insane that even during the olympics he had the commentators not only disregard athletes that weren't part of the Axis but he even translated THE NAMES because the only good language was Italian to him, he was completely fucking bonkers.

If you don't even know this much you have no right to make any comment on him, you have no idea of terrible of a person and a politician he was, why do you think he created the myth of the modern evil dictator?
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>>277240
Serious question; is Merkel a dictator? Two more years and she will have been in power longer than Hitler.
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>>275618
>the right wing must like nazis
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>>276855
>le no true scotsman
c'mon man are you really arguing mussolini wasn't fascist? guy defined fascism.
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>>275729
>I thought the rest of the Chan used Hitler glorification to piss off black people?

thats correct.

back when this was just an american nerd site.
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>>275538
He was a real-life cartoon villain
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>>276204
>An American eye witness described the crowd as "sinister, depraved, out of control"
Probably because no one was selling hotdogs and postcards of the lynching like they did in America.
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>>279033
Seriously.
Look at this picture of his headquarters.
How can you look at that and not think "Hey maybe we're the bad guys"
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>>279142
kek, you made me laugh.
to be fair, hotdogs and postcards wasn't an american exclusive. you can see italian irredentist Cesare Battisti being keked after death by austrian soldiers. it was a popular postcard (choose by the great Karl Kraus in his Last Days of Humanity) pic related
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>>275538
He was a doofus. He had close to unlimited power but fucked up in pretty much everyway and ended up destroying his country. He gets grouped with Hitler just because their philosophies seem vaguely similar to outsiders.
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>>275538
>>275618

>4chan has a defined political position now

This makes me mad. I want every person who feels the need to shit up threads with politics to fuck off to either
>>>/pol/
or
>>>/tumblr/
or some other place where they can't bother everybody with their off-topic shitflinging.
>>
>>279384

4chan does have a defined political position

It is always opposite to whatever group is in power. I remember the early years of 4chan that would constantly give Bush shit about everything.
>>
>>275538
>For a right-wing glorifying site like 4chan


thats the ultimate bait
/po/ started off as pure satire than ppl actually believed this shit
>>
>>279595
When a liberal gets elected president, 4chan becomes conservative. When a conservative gets elected president, 4chan becomes liberal. It never ends mostly because conservatives/liberals come here to seek refuge
>>
>>277824
that's extremism for you. it always involves a failure to make fine distinctions. its no different on the left or right.
>>
>>277482
this already marks you out as biased. abenomics hasn't been a success, but it is by no means a trainwreck. Mussolini's policy wasn't either. iirc Italy entirely avoided the great depression under him.

the war also happened in the last five years of his rule, so you can't entirely judge him on that alone, thought it was a success.
>>
>>279808
>thought it was a success
though it was a total failure*
>>
>>278711
thats just how the parliamentary system works in germany, the definition of dictatorship involves maintaining power by force or autocratically
>>
>>277482
>organizations he created like the SIAE,

so that stamp that i have on all my italian records is because of mussolini? neat.
>>
>>277365
Anytime time someone says anything remotely different from stormfag thought there is spastic yelling and enforcing of an echo chamber from said stormfags.
>>
>>275538
He was a socialist.
>>
>>279993
cool, just like when someone says anything remotely different from the standard PC approved thought
something in common at last
>>
>>280058
You realize you're saying this on 4chan?
>>
>>280064
I was referring to this board, which gets triggered easily by non PC stuff.
>>
>>280068
Stupidity is as PC as it gets.
>>
>>280058
You just stated why we are on 4chan, you get to say Hitler did nothing wrong with a chance at attempting to prove the statement as correct (plus talk about jacking off to anime girls).

>>280068
I haven't been on this board that frequently but I would think studying history makes one less PC by nature.
>>
Mussolini died when he let Dollfuss' assassination go unpunished.
Also if he hadn't invaded Ethiopia we could have had a glorious British-French-Italian-Soviet containment block around Germany
>>
I'm actually pretty interested in the idea of Italian Fascism. Before it was overtaken by Nazi racial ideology, it seemed to have a lot going for it. Do you guys think there could be a renaissance in modern nationalism and pseudo-fascist governments in today's western countries?
>>
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>>281010
Looking for your own people and nation is raciss anon, embrace the globalist utopia.
>>
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>>281043
no
>>
>>276142
>some organization claiming to represent the entire world tries to tell you what to do with your sovereign country
>tell them to fuck off
seems fine to me
>>
>>281010
I don't think so. the elite dogma all around the world today is a liberalism. that is to say, all the rich people in every country have a stake in a global capitalist system. I don't say this with as a critique, but the global elite has every interest in keeping the global flow of capital going, primarily because it allows them to avoid taxation by harboring their money in overseas tax havens or in foreign investments in developing countries or in a transnational corporation for that matter. this is antithetical, then, to the idea of a nation-state, which requires a strong government-->which requires the elite to protect the interests of their country by paying high taxes and keeping their money in the country. To take an excerpt I read the other day global capitalism makes it so that the nation-state as a unit of organizaiton is too big to be relevant in ordinary life, but at the same time not big enough to shelter people from the fluctuations of the global capitalist markets. therefore, if fascism is to ever emerge, it would be on the local or regional level. this is why, for example, the last couple of decades has seen the emergence of regional nationalist movements like in brittany, catalonia, scotland and so on, because the nation-state is has become marginalized. even the strongest ones don't have control over their populations like they did 30 or 40 years ago.
>>
>>276142
Ethiopia was literally allowed into the League by mistake.
>>
>>276253
A LOT of them.
>>
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>>279595
As a liberal /b/tard during the Bush administration, I didn't become right-wing out of spite. I simply grew up.
>>
>>281149
>some organization claiming to represent the entire world tries to tell you not to attack other sovereign countries because you agreed to abide by their authority

That's some nigger tier logic, if I'm being perfectly honest, my family.
>>
>>279142
>No hamburgers
Sinister and depraved.
>>
>>275746
>France and Britain declared war
And that's all they did. Ending with Germany steamrolling France.
Really, Nazi Germany wasn't defensive before later stage of fighting Britain, being pushed back by Soviet Union, and USA joining.
>>
He would've been remembered as the hero who made Italy not completely shit for once had he joined up with the Allies.
>>
>>275538
he had a bigass chin
>>
He was a buffoon. Don't try going to war with a people that don't want to fight.

>>276062
I keep noticing that a certain board is only ever brought up when people mention fascism, WWII, Civil War, Rhodesia, etc and even hint at being open to any thoughts outside the increasingly narrow range of acceptable opinion.
>>
>>276397
What awful architecture. Why did Britain adopt the brutalist architectural style after the war other than to oppress their citizens?
>>
>>277962
>Didn't you see that movie
Is that the disgusting movie based on A Thousand Days of Sodom?
>>
>>279652
No it didn't. /pol/ started off as /news/.
>>
>>282025
>"Waah why can't I glorify Rhodesia and the Nazis?"
If you want to discuss white supremacy go to Stormfront.
>>
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>>282087
>>
>>281621
that was the inherent problem of the LON; it had no way to enforce its will. it was a voluntary organization that was only able to solve minor disputes at best. same can be said for the UN today tbhwyf. At least the UN has the security council though, which does get things done on occasion if all the great powers agree on something. then again, the security council agreed on bombing libya (when medvedeev represented russia) and look how that turned out rofl
>>
>>275538
/pol/ creams themselves over Mussolini but you see little mention of him on /his/ because very few posters here are fascists

Mussolini was an ineffective leader who relied on charisma more than anything else. His wartime decisions harmed Italy substantially, but nowhere near as badly as Hitler.

I'm sure that if the Nazi party had never existed, Mussolini and Fascism would both be seen as humorous footnotes of history.
>>
>>276204
Uneducated mobs are the fucking worst.

They put Mussolini in power, and then they killed him.
>>
>>275538
>For a right-wing glorifying site like 4chan
>tfw I've been in this place for so long that I remember when this was a left-wing glorifying site
>>
>>279142
kek

Were lynchings common in 1944? I think they peaked around WW1, but I could be wrong.
>>
Strictly worse in every possible way than pic related.
>>
>>276726
It's less about shitty Jews ruining for everybody else, but about the Nazis exaggerating Jewish shittiness.
>>
>>284766
franco was retarded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ6sIJsnTXk
>>
Mussolini is easier to empathize with, because he wasn't an autistic idiot like Hitler was.
He also didn't believe that racial bullshit, or plan mass exterminations, or go into autistic territory that much.
If Hitler didn't appear and shit on fascism by association, fascism would be seen in better light today.
>>
>>284777

Franco united his country, btfo the Communists, stayed out of WW2, saved the Spanish economy from the smoking ruin, and ruled peacefully until his death of natural causes.

All while not even being an actual Fascist.
>>
>>284777
You can not like his politics but claiming he was retarded is a bit much.
>>
>>275618
I'm /leftypol/, but you're in denial if you don't think 4chan leans to right.
>>
>>275632
>Back in my day

faggot
>>
>>275746

>But some tensions rose and caused a fight between Germany and Poland and then France and Britain declared war but got BTFO.

Wait a minute.

Are you actually suggesting that the german offensive against Poland was legitimate?
>>
>>284739
The partisans and italian resistance were the exact opposit of uneducated mobs.

You are the one who should educate yourself if you don't know basic european history.
>>
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>>284925
The partisans were bandits, raiding villages and raping women because "muh communism". They literally sprung out of thin air after the armistice and their numbers quadrupled after the war was over. They didn't even contribute anything to the liberation of the country, all of that was done by the allies. Partisan worship in the Italian left wing is sickening.
>>
>>284816
>united his country
by starting a bloody civil war that he wouldn't have won without Hitler's help
>btfo the Communists
btfo a democracy
>stayed out of WW2
he wanted to join WW2 but Hitler didn't want him in, and didn't let him join. Still sent soldiers to the Soviet front.
>saved the Spanish economy from the smoking ruin
the republic was recovering Spain from the ruin of the 1929 crisis when his superiors caused a war (he ended up being head of it out of luck) and Spain was a third world country until the US rescued it in the late 50s because of muh cold war
>ruled peacefully
if ruling peacefully involves the killing of hundreds of thousands because of political reasons (or because they were teachers, for example)
>not even being an actual Fascist.
I'll give you that, because Fascism is laical and he gave everything to the Church and was an ally of the Vatican.

>>284824
He thought he had been chosen directly by God to rule Spain. That's pretty retarded.
>>
>>284949
>he wanted to join WW2 but Hitler didn't want him in, and didn't let him join. Still sent soldiers to the Soviet front.

Not true, Hitler wanted both Franco and Vichy France to join him against the English in North Africa. These two powers, however, had conflicting interests and in the end neither joined because the three of them (Spain, Vichy France and Hitler) could not agree on what terms to set.

If Franco wanted to join he could have done so at any time.
>>
>>284948
Sure thing pal, how about that sauce?
>>
>>277298
>italianisation
>supression of minority rights/languages
How exactly are these bad things?
>>
>>284967
While its true that Franco wanted a bigger part of Africa (he would later lose what he had), it's known by primary sources that Hitler treated him with contempt in the interview of Hendaye, and the Africa thing is just the excuse they gave to not entering the war, but he wanted to fight communism in the Soviet Union with much more professionalism that what the Division Azul was, but Hitler didn't want him leading the soldiers so he didn't let him join.
>>
>>277482
>he actually reinstated the church giving them more power than they ever had since the 17nth century
There's nothing wrong with that
>>
Wasn't Mussolini socialist at first before inventing fascism? I remember reading somewhere that Lenin warned his Italian socialist comrades during his exile not to lose the guy.
>>
>>285004
>clergy
>good
pick one
>>
>>284989
Back to /pol/ with you.
>>285004
>There's nothing wrong with that
>Actively supporting clergy of any religion
>good
Fuck off
>>
>>28>>285013
There isn't
>>
>>285013
Please explain what's wrong with making people in Italy speak Italian?
>>
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>>284996

I've never read anything that suggests this was the case whatsoever.

I don't disbelieve you (is that a word?) but it seems implausble that Franco would be willing to throw himself into another war so close after ending his own civil war. Furthermore all the books I've read on the history of the Third Reich (I've read Shirer's and Evan's) do not take this viewpoint.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just haven't heard that viewpoint before.
>>
>>284996
Not really, Franco presented Hitler with a long list of ludicrous demands that needed to be fulfilled before he could consider entering the war. The Division Azul was barred from fighting on the western front as to not anger the Allies, and he called back most of his fighters when the tides were turning in the Allies' favour. He denied Mussolini's request to seek refuge in Spain. He was pretty much an opportunist, used the fascists to get what he wanted while not even being a fascist himself and actively repressing the revolutionary wing of the Falange back home.
>>
>>285019

Not him but this:
>supression of minority rights/languages

Is not a good thing by any stretch of the word. Unless one is a /pol/tard of course.
>>
>>285019
>Please explain what's wrong with making people in Italy speak Italian?
You sure don't know a thing about either Italian history or linguistics, do you?
>>
>>284949

>starting a bloody civil war

no he didn't.

>he wouldn't have won without Hitler's help

Implying the Second Republic could carry out the war long term without the food producing regions and the farming peasantry fighting for Franco or without Russian assistance.

>btfo a democracy

lol no free expression, Catholicism effectively banned, rampant murder, political arson, civil seizure of private property without due process, direct military aid courtesy of Joe Stalin himself.

Good riddance.

>republic was recovering

completely false

>the killing of hundreds of thousands

blatant exaggeration
>>
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>>284766
>>
>>285051

butthurt Catalan detected.

shame your movement got keked by Communists
>>
>>285038
i dont even know why I keep coming to this board. This is literary /pol/. The republic had its wrongdoings, but if you really think Franco's regime was better than the Republic you are either uneducated or blinded by your political thoughts.

He started a Civil War jointly with other generals to put Sanjurjo in charge.
It's impossible to know if he would have won without Hitler's help but he had almost no navy, and almost no air force, that were decisive in the war. Also lacked equipment. This is just my opinion but I honestly think Germany and Italy had not helped him the war would have been so long that he wouldn't have been able to continue it. Let's not forget the spanish people were against him.
The republic WAS a democracy, out of any doubt, that had left and right wing governments. Catholicism was not banned, they only had removed the money the state was giving the clergy and they were told that they couldnt teach. People that burned monasterys were porsecuted by the republican police and most of them were incarcelated.
Joe Stalin didnt help because the Spanish communists were democrats until the war broke out.
I could go on but I know you'll never listen to reason
>>
>>285038
>the killing of hundreds of thousands
>blatant exaggeration
historians range from 150,000 victims to 400,000
>>
>>285072
>Catholicism was not banned
>lets just murder all the clergy instead!!

Sure.

>historians range from 150,000 victims to 400,000

Based on what?
>>
>>285089
>>285083
>>
>>285089
>lets just murder all the clergy instead!!
now that is a blatant exaggeration

>Based on what?
based on research. Do I have to remind you what a historian is?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Spain)#Estimates
>>
>>285038
>no he didn't.
He did
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_coup_of_July_1936

>Implying the Second Republic could carry out the war long term without the food producing regions and the farming peasantry fighting for Franco or without Russian assistance.
Implying Franco could have carried the war without the entire Spanish industry (Barcelona and Madrid), food is cheaper than industrial goods

>lol no free expression, Catholicism effectively banned, rampant murder, political arson, civil seizure of private property without due process, direct military aid courtesy of Joe Stalin himself.
It was shit, but democratic after all, look into the problems of democracy (complete control if 51% of the population wants) intead of just spewing shit

also, communism was not sustainable, it was going to blow up anyway, Franco denied the world a valuable lesson in that sense

And soviet support was given after the declaration of war in response of the German&Italian backing up Franco

>completely false
The entire world was recovering from 29th crisis, Spain included

>blatant exaggeration
"The number of casualties is disputed; estimates generally suggest that between 500,000 and 1 million people were killed. Over the years, historians kept lowering the death figures and modern research concludes that 500,000 deaths is the correct figure. Thomas Barria-Norton, The Spanish Civil War (2001), pp. xviii & 899–901, inclusive."
>>
>>282064
yes it is
>>
>>285109
>>285103

>estimates
>Concrete figures do not exist
>muh research

It happened, but I can recognize propaganda as it is.
>>
>>285141
They didn't write down the amount of people they killed, kid. There were hundreds of thousands killed. You live in denial.
>>
>>275538
Perhaps because hes left wing?
>>
>>285151
Obviously there were, you seem to forget the hundreds of thousand killed in Republican territory as well though.
>>
>>284816
>Franco united his country
you mean a pathetic coup d'etat by the army against a legitimate government. disgusting tbqh

>saved the Spanish economy
you mean delivered it to aristocratic landlords and bankers holding the country back

>ruled peacefully
he executed 200,000 people exiled thousands, bombarded people with shit catholic propaganda, and had strict repressive laws. LOL
>>
>>285151
>There were hundreds of thousands killed

actually prove it then. Until you do your appeal to authority doesn't matter to me at all.

Hundreds of thousands died in the Civil War. How do you distinguish these deaths from executions, cleanings, and political repression?
>>
>>285167
>legitimate government

k, if a government is made legitimate by the will of it's people then clearly the Second Republic was hardly a solid candidate.

>holding the country back

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_miracle

>executed 200,000 people

hello where is proofs
>>
>>285103
>what a historian is

usually a shill for someone or some particular viewpoint or another

There are rare exceptions, like Herodotus.
>>
>>285007
correct
>>
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>>285183
>legitimate by the will of it's people
it was elected goverment. thats how parliamentary democracies work whether you like it or not.

>hello where is proofs
pic from paul preston politics of revenge: fascism and military in 20th century spain. one of the most respected anglo scholars in the field
>>
>>285183
>k, if a government is made legitimate by the will of it's people then clearly the Second Republic was hardly a solid candidate.
why so? the majority of Spain voted for a republic, and a republic happened

>unironically believing in the spanish miracle
The average spaniard saw nothing of the spanish miracle, it was only the opening of Spain to tourism, shitting on the true nationalist side of government and promoting the political corruption we still see in Spain

>hello where is proofs
>>285083
>>285109
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Mortalidad_en_la_Guerra_Civil_Espa%C3%B1ola,_por_inscripci%C3%B3n_en_juzgados
multiple proofs have been posted already (all of which are faithful to the more than a hundred thousand number), doesn't change the fact you will shove a pair of dildos in your ears and pretend they are not there, if you disagree with those, post better ones, i'm not doing your research
>>
>>285358
>https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Mortalidad_en_la_Guerra_Civil_Espa%C3%B1ola,_por_inscripci%C3%B3n_en_juzgados

TOTAL 1 : 136.913
TOTAL 2 : 57.662
TOTAL 3 : 296.944

now that's academic consistency for you. Although I may be missing something considering I can't speak fluent Spanish and the tables aren't cited.

>not a primary source
>>
>>285358
>The average spaniard saw nothing of the spanish miracle
Oh please.

You do know that Spain before the Civil war was poorer than hungary or romania, and far poorer than czechoslovakia, right?

Today, Spain is far richer than those aforementioned countries. Why? Because Franco prevented Spain from becoming another totalitarian marxist shithole.
>>
>>277444
>Buzzwords: The post.
>>
>>285383
>>285358

ok ok wait, I'm starting to differentiate the faux latin gibberish

>Ejecuciones y homicidios
Zona Gubernamental

If that's the Second Republic territory, 72.344

>Ejecuciones y homicidios
Zona Nacional

If this is the Nationalists, 57.662

So, that's not 200,000 and that isn't more than the Republicans.

Your own source seems to be refuting your position.
>>
>>285072
Franco's Spain was so fucking poor for its few starting decades the dude had to ask from food aid from fucking Argentina, one of its former colonies. People who glorify this dude are retarded.
>>
>>285423
>Spain took a while to recover from a disastrous civil war
>It is entirely Franco's fault
>massive famines in the USSR
>It's because of the civil war!
>>
>>285388
Socialist Czechoslovakia wasn't poorer than Francoist Spain for most of its existence. If you're going to cite the myth of Extreme Marxist Totalitarian Poverty you should probably cite one of the poorer eastern bloc states, like Albania, not the one that was relatively well off even by average world standards.
>>
>>285383
>Implying someone took the time to count how many people died
>implying it's not all about estimation
>implying more dead bodies buried from the civil war aren't being found every now and then
>implying the real numbers from the government weren't manipulated
I gave you that the number is at least a hundred thousand, and sources back it up

where are your fantastic sources that prove otherwise by the way?

>>285388
You do know that it took 20 years to go back to pre-civil war economic levels

Want a recomendation? ask any older spaniard about the "spanish miracle" and look at how many people knew about it's existance

>>285400
those are just executions, add the direct war deaths, 165.764, most of which were on the republican side (mostly due to the nationalist side having bombers and using them indiscriminately)
>>
>>285423
>fucking poor

No shit, they had just fought a brutal fucking war in which a great number of workers were killed which destroyed most of their infrastructure.

>ad hom and a strawman
>>
>>285441
To elaborate: Even accounting for the lower per capita GDP of the commie bloc, the Human Development Index reports from the era (which IIRC only include the time of socialist decline in the 80s) place it all roughly at the same level as some first world nations. While none achieved America or Norway level of HDI, the majority was high due to good living expectancy, literacy, and other factors, even accounting for the generally low GDP that was a result of inefficient economic planning.
>>
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>>285441
See pic related
>communism, not even once

>>285444
>You do know that it took 20 years to go back to pre-civil war economic levels
Right.

>Want a recomendation? ask any older spaniard about the "spanish miracle" and look at how many people knew about it's existance
I have a spanish friend who loves Franco. But he's not from the lower classes.
>>
>>285446
guess who destroyed the infrastructure and then didn't bother to rebuild it?
>>
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why does hitler grab his belt /his/? is it cause hes a beta afraid of based mussolini?
>>
>>285465
>>
Anyone who thinks Franco didn't orchestrate the killings of hundreds of thousands is deluding himself.
>>
>>285444
>just executions

But that was the entire argument, that Franco was executing 200,000 people. You're trying to wriggle out of this but it's up there.

>add the direct war deaths, 165.764, most of which were on the republican side

Not really, this from a quick search.

>An estimated 200,000 died from combat-related causes. Of these, 110,000 fought for the Republicans and 90,000 for the Nationalists

http://spartacus-educational.com/SPcasualties.htm

It seems like people are just repeating falsities and politicized exaggerations ad nauseam.
>>
>>285462
>1990 figures.
The majority of socialist states at the point were in the process of abandoning centrally planned economies or had suffered a sharp decline during the late 80s. Abandoning central planning caused major contractions in GDP during the transition process and it took a few years for these countries to recover. Also: lol at citing GDP as the only measure of a society's success, there's a reason why the Human Development Index exists. You can't just cite economic figures for a state that is in the process of Ceasing To Exist Entirely as proof that the 45 years (or more) that it existed were nothing but crushing misery and poverty.
>>
>>285472
lel it is a pic of hitler arriving to italy (presumably by plane), to makes sense

>IL DUCE, IM NSDAP
>>
>>285484
To expand on this: I acknowledge that centrally planned economies were inefficient and unsustainable in the long term, and that the political climate of the Soviet bloc was generally one of censorship and repression, but that doesn't change that painting the entirety of the commie world and its multiple decade existence as being equivalent to the Soviet 30s reeks of shitty cold war propaganda.
>>
>>285484
>The majority of socialist states at the point were in the process of abandoning centrally planned economies or had suffered a sharp decline during the late 80s. Abandoning central planning caused major contractions in GDP during the transition process and it took a few years for these countries to recover.
Right, but 1990 was the beginning of the slump. And anyways, the slump was rather small. Not enough to explain the huge discrepancy.

>Also: lol at citing GDP as the only measure of a society's success, there's a reason why the Human Development Index exists.
The human development index was invested my an indian marxist "economist" for propaganda purposes to tout the alleged "success" of the communist regional government of the state of Kerala in India.

Anyone who unironically brings up HDI in a discussion should be euthanized for the benefit of future generations.

You are now warned.
>>
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reminder that franco was a fatass who couldn't probably couldn't see his own dick
>>
>>285503
Forgot pic.
>>
>>285503
How is HDI not relevant because of who invented it? Are you saying that elements like life expectancy, infant mortality, literacy, etc. are not valid measures of a functional society? It seems retarded to measure solely GDP when distribution issues exist and a country could have enormous GDP while having it so poorly distributed most people still live in crushing poverty. Socialist economies were not efficient, but they weren't impoverished third world hellholes either.
>>
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>>285462
the GDP of Spain (España)

>>285481
I never mentioned that deaths were exclusive to executions, apologies if it sounded implied at some point, just in the republican side on general

Also from your source
500k total deaths
200k died from war (110k republicans, 90k nationalists)
130k from executions during war (55k republicans, 75k nationalists)
100k republican prisoners executed after the war
35k republicans died in concentration camps
25k died from malnutrition in cities (remember Franco was backed up by most the entire agricultural sector)
>>
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>>285505
>>
>>285535

>After the war it is believed that the government of General Francisco Franco arranged the executions of 100,000 Republican prisoners.

>it is believed that

I fucking hate this.
>>
>>276220
How the fuck is his shirt still tucked in
>>
>>285432
>bringing up something about the USSR that is totally unrelated
not everyone discussing something you're touchy about is a bolshevik, friend
>>
>>285072
The Nationalist would have one no matter what because they had most of the military on their side.
Thread posts: 236
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