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In your opinion, what caused the fall of Rome?

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In your opinion, what caused the fall of Rome?
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Rampant avarice and debauchery
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Intellectual and scientific stagnation desu.
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>>274102
>>274115

These, plus a loss of identity due to the rise of Christianity and the decline of the Roman gods
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anime to be truthful
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>>274098
constant in-fighting and civil wars
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>>274098
Is this is the start of an epic new meme?

It was civil wars, as it was with the Republic.

Literally a hundred thousand were lost in the various wars of the 4th and 5th centuries which could not be replaced with anyone but cheaper foederati, who instead of being paid with cash (which was harder to come by) were given land/tax from the land. Downward spiral of giving away land, less tax, more reliance on barbarians, more land etc. until there was no non-barbarian army left.
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>>274098
Pestilence and civil wars (partially caused by the pestilence too). I dare say overextension relative to communication/government tech was a factor too, when you have to delegate so much power to your governors that they basically become your peers, you're just bigger than you can manage.
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>>274098
Honestly, emperors chosen by bloodline desu senpai.
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>>274196
Should have invested more in papet mana desu.
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>>274201
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>shit emperors
>mismanagement and corruption
>christianity
>barbarian invasions
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Spread too thin

Too many barbarians
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>>274235
>>274135
>Christianity
love this meme
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Pestilence
Famine
Civil War
Many incompetent rulers
Invasion by the Northern tribes
War with Persia
Inflation and debasement of currency
Degradation of the trade networks which created isolated manors
Settlement of whole tribes in contiguous areas with their native power structures intact
Man power shortage
Cultural degeneration I guess
Corruption of officials at many levels
Possibly Christianity

As far as I can tell. Probably more shit too -- the empire took quite a few unfavorable dickings from circumstance and its neighbors. It's impressive that it lasted as long as it did.
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Germanic subhumans fucking everything up, society degenerating.
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>>274098

Factor number 1:
economic crisis steemed from inefficient taxation system, which lead provincial rulers to become abusive and corrupt, which compulsed the rich to move away from cities and stablish themselves away in their own villas, and took many of the underclasses with them. This degraded Rome's power and decreased the obedience and control.

Factor number 2:
the goth and germanic immigration brought partly by the raiding huns and other hordes, and partly by the attractive quality of life in Rome, which had become incredibly easy to obtain due to the universal citizenship granted by Caracalla, swept Rome with people not used to their customs and no respect for their institutions, the quality of jurisprudence decreased and the vast majority of these tribes, being warriors, formed legions that had more allegiance to their warlords than the emperor or senate. They would later contribute to destabilizing the empire in civil wars and goth rebelions that fragmented and finally destroyed the western empire.

Factor number 3:
Christianity, while not being a destructive force on it's own, became a sympthom of a general loss of identity and closeness with the values, beliefs and practices of Roman tradition which were contained within the pagan religion of ancient times.
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>>274098

Institutional instability caused by creating a standing, professional military without creating any institutional oversight for it.

The only way to stop a legion or two from marching on your palace and declaring their general emperor was to hope that you had the other generals on your side and that they'd be in a position to intercept the first set of guys.

And pitting your military against itself like that causes a lot of problems, see every third world country today.
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>>274098
Ur mom.
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>>274098
>In your opinion, what caused the fall of Rome?
ice cube
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>Christianity
Why does this meme persist. I'm genuinely baffled. Gibbon was an entertaining writer but he wasn't much of a historian.
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But Rome didn't fall until 1453
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End of patriarchy
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>Ctrl+F "plague"
>0 results
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>>274098
While there were plenty of factors that led to its decline, the killing blow was struck by the invading and sacking barbarian hordes eventually looting rome.
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Death of Aetius.
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>>274098

Gay Christian feminists.
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>>274098
Like all problems, there are many factors to the pie.

When push comes to shove, I would say that the biggest factor of all of them was; the abandonment of the Capital with control being delegated out to the provincials which allowed the governmental apparatus to move to the east.

Rome was a degenerate shithole by the time Hadrian came to power, I believe that after 100's of years of accumulated learning, they believed they could make a better Empire, to achieve a greater Empire they needed to abandon the old one, this is why Constantinople was created, they started over.

They left a top down vacuum of power in the west which was never filled, this allowed the Barbarians to attack and repel any attempts at stopping them from settling in the Western lands (Spain).
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>>275353
and the immigrants they invited to breed for them
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>>274167
>It was civil wars, as it was with the Republic.
Those wars created the most experienced and deadly force in the ancient world.
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>>275330
>implying Rome was not a republic in the 5th century BC.
>implying democracy ruined Rome rather than brought it to prominence
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>>275334
Tough to blame a plague on feminists.
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>>275368
democracy + welfare (bread and circus) + migration= problems
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>>275374
Why tho?

Don't project today's fears onto the past. Tell me how that combination actually caused problems in ancient rome.

Reminder: Rome stopped being a Republic at the height of its power.
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>>275348
This. He tried to hold the empire together like others before him like Stilicho but got assassinated by the emperor.
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Mismanagement on government, and private level leading to what we might today call a recession. Couple that with a massive migration period not seen since, and you have a state that just couldn't handle it all.
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Turks and Franks.
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>>275384
Why do the Greeks inherit everything then run it into the ground?

> inherited the legacy of the Egyptian civilization that spanned 3000 years
> inherited the Christian faith
> inherited the Roman Empire
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>>275378

>height of it's power
>emperor Trajan assumed a hundred plus years afterwards
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Climate Change

It got too cold year round up in the Steppes of northeast Europe and north west Asia. The Huns, Germanics, and others couldn't grave their livestock. So they all moved southwest into Germania, Dacia, and the Roman Empire.

Western Empire didn't have the economy or the population of the Eastern Empire. West got too dependent on using Germanics in place of the legions. Even some of the later Emperors were Germanics instead of Latins.

Germanics wanted what the Roman Empire had but didn't want to be part of the Empire. So they moved in and cut up the Western Empire for themselves.
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>>275426
>Even some of the later Emperors were Germanics instead of Latins.

this
>>275356

They left a vacuum of power in the West, abandoned it, the Western landowners eventually just married into people who cared about them, ie. the Franks were welcomed as a ruling feudal class in Gaul.

The Gallo-Romans and Britons even joined them in removing the Goths from the south.
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>>274098
krauts
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The monotheistic nature of Christianity destroyed polytheistic Rome and its science

The population concentrated more onto the next life, rather than current one, so people didnt really care about preserving the empire as much as they cared for salvation of their souls, transfering their ultimate loyalty from the empire/Rome to God/heaven

A lot of previous wisdom was seen as filthy pagan devilwork, which caused a scientific stagnation, which culminated in dark ages.
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>>274098
the republic fell because of an over expansive foreign policy
the empire fell because public debauchery
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>>275471
>more onto the next life, rather than current one,
You've gotta be kidding me, the early church was entirely active in helping society.
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>>275471
>A lot of previous wisdom was seen as filthy pagan devilwork, which caused a scientific stagnation, which culminated in dark ages.

how to destroy your argument in one paragraph
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>>275486
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

>Hero published a well recognized description of a steam-powered device called an aeolipile (sometimes called a "Hero engine").
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>>275482
you mean helped themselves by being a secretive cult that in no way helped the great state of rome
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>>275502
>secretive cult
It was open, it let its neck be exposed and Gallerius struck at it.
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>>275501

what does christianity has to do with this?

you do know most of these inventions continued being used throughout the middle ages right? The knowledge wasn't lost, it just wasn't depicted, or practical to make widespread. Remember Da Vinci's robots?
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>>275471
>people actually follow their religion
Nice meme
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>>275519
They burnt down all the pagan temples which contained the pagan wisdom-this includes Heros works because he was a pagan, and the library of alexandria was burnt down.
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People who think the greeks could've made the steam engine because of that spinny thing have no idea how complicated actual steam engines are, or how tight the tolerances.
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>>275539
>They burnt down all the pagan temples which contained the pagan wisdom-this includes Heros works because he was a pagan

no they didn't

how the fuck do you think we even know about him

Christian monks during the middle ages did literally nothing BUT rescue pagan knowledge

>and the library of alexandria was burnt down.

>During Caesar's Civil War, Julius Caesar was besieged at Alexandria in 48 BC. Many ancient sources describe Caesar setting fire to his own ships[25][26] and state that this fire spread to the library, destroying it.[27]

>The library seems to have continued in existence to some degree until its contents were largely lost during the taking of the city by the Emperor Aurelian (AD 270–275), who was suppressing a revolt by Queen Zenobia of Palmyra.[31] During the course of the fighting, the areas of the city in which the main library was located were damaged.[15] Some sources claim that the smaller library located at the Serapeum survived,[32] though Ammianus Marcellinus wrote of the library in the Serapeum temple as a thing of the past, destroyed when Caesar sacked Alexandria.[33]


the library was destroyed no less than five times in it's history, and the only time Christianity had anything to do with it, it was only shutting it down, not fucking torching it.
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Less of this and more of barbarian invasions.

You gotta invade the barbaroi back XD
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>>274098
Yeah.....Overall It just fell apart slowly overtime, by most things in the whole structure within itself.
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>>274098
It is a wonder that Rome lasted , not that it fell
>Consequently, as the Western Culture presents a maximum, so the Classical shows a minimum, of organization. For this was completely absent even as an idea from Classical man. His finance was one of provisional expedients made rule and habit. The wealthy burgher of Athens and Rome could be burdened with the equipment of war-ships. The political power of the Roman audile (and his debts) rested on the fact that he not only produced the games and the streets and the buildings, but paid for them too - of course, he could recoup himself later by plundering his province. Sources of income were thought of only when the need of income presented itself,. and then drawn upon, without any regard for the future, as the moment required - even at the cost of entirely destroying them. Plunder of the treasures of one's own temples, sea-piracy against one's own city, confiscation of the wealth of one's own fellow-citizens were everyday methods of finance. If surpluses were available, they were distributed to the citizens - a proceeding to which plenty of people besides E.ubulus of Athens owed their popularity
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>>275576
>Budgets were as unknown as any other part of financial policy. The" economic management" of Roman prov- inces was a system of robbery, public and private, practised by senators and financiers without the slightest consideration as to whether the exported values could be replaced. Never did Classical man think of systematically intensifying his economic life, but ever looked to the result of the moment, the tangible quantum of cash. Imperial Rome would have gone down in ruin had it not
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>>275582
Been fortunate enough to possess in old Egypt a Civilization that had for a thousand years thought of nothing but the organization of its economy. The Roman neither comprehended nor was capable of copying this style of life,1 but the accident that Egypt provided the political possessor of this fellah-world with an inexhaustible source of gold rendered it unnecessary for him to make a settled hahit of proscription at home; the last of these financial operations in massacre-form was that of 43, shortly before the incorporation of Egypt.2 The amassed gold of Asia Minor that Brutus and Cassius were then bringing up, which meant an army and the dominion of the world, made it necessary to put to the ban some two thousand of the richest inhabitants of Italy, whose heads
were brought to the Forum in sacks for the offered rewards. It was no longer possible to spare even relatives, children, and grey-heads, or people who had never concerned themselves with politics. It was enough that they possessed a stock of cash and that the yield would otherwise have been too small.
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>>275587
>>275582
>>275576

where is this from even, it sounds butthurt as fuck
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>>275599
Spengler, Decline of The West, The form world of Economic Life, Chapter XIII
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>>275549
Ancient Greeks made complicated machines.

Pictured is a clockwork computation device made in ancient greece.
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“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”


― Marcus Tullius Cicero

In short, Jews.
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>>275611

considering Romans had laws to punish the fuck out of the idiot who wasn't wise with his money from almost archaic times, i'm incredulous that they would suddenly turn into morons in a different context.
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>>275623
It looks like some kind of mechanism for winding a sail perhaps? I've heard people theorize that it is some kind of compass.
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>>275557
>>and the library of alexandria was burnt down.
At Alexandria in 389, Bishop Theophilus of Alexandria personally directed the destruction of the temple to the god Serapis, reputedly the largest place of worship in the known world.

The temple precinct, or Serapeum, also housed a scientific research institute (a "Museum" named after the nine Muses) and the famous Library of Alexandria - two of the greatest academic buildings in human history. Both buildings were loathed by Christians, who hated scientific research and secular knowledge as much as they hated other people's places of worship. Both Museum and Library were destroyed around this time, probably in the same violent incident in which the bishop destroyed the temple.

Pretty hard to rescue pagan knowledge if the monks are the ones burning it.
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>>274098
Unchecked immigration by groups who refused to assimilate to the Roman culture, like Germanic tribes and Jewish Christians.
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>>275663

of course you have sources for this
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>>275623
Maybe it is an advanced fishing rod mechanism to catch big fish?
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>>275680
lol how new are you.

Rome expanded beyond central control, this meant that areas outside Rome started to gain importance in certain societal, administrative and cultural functions moved outwards. Instead of going to Rome to learn Latin you went to Southern Gaul where the best greek teachers were, to get a leg up in politics you had to go east to where real politics still happened and a new guy had a chance to gain power, and so on. Once this happened along with the slow expansion rolling by, the Empire was too diffuse as a thing to be controllable so cracks appeared which were then exploited internally and externally, it is at this point most people see the demise but it started long before then.
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>>275648
>>275738
best guess is that it is some sort of astronomy computer. Just turns the gears and it would show you where heavenly bodies are.

>>275680
The goths assimilated just fine. The Visigoths in particular kept latin culture alive in Hispania. They just didn't want to be ruled over by Roman Emperors and Roman Aristocracy.
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>>275814
>best guess is that it is some sort of astronomy computer. Just turns the gears and it would show you where heavenly bodies are.
Wow, haven't read or heard about this in years, now it is a fully fledged computer/compass/clock/planetarium.
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>>275240
So basically Europe today?
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>>275868
ancient greeks made a lot of complicated machines for religious purposes.

We're talking about coin operated statues of gods. Put the coin in and it would release water, steam, fire, etc.

Astronomy/Astrology factored heavily into Greek religion too.
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>>275871
They reckon the mechanism is correlated to Babylonian arithmetic.
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>moscow the third rome
Thread posts: 76
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