Archived threads in /his/ - History & Humanities - 3471. page

>>1251336
Infinite regress breaks logic, and we generally try to make our arguments logical

>>1251358
You are confusing "Makes sense" with "illogical". There is nothing illogical about an infinite chain. The Unmoved mover argument on the other hand is illogical because it postulates that nothing can exist without being created, and then postulates something that has no creator. Logically speaking the unmoved mover cannot exist, and thus the universe cannot exist.

An infinite regress does not "Make sense" but the alternative is a logical absurdity.

>>1251358
It doesn't breaks logic more than prime cause or say logical circle. What you prefer is completely arbitrary choice to be honest.

because he died

>>1251009
He was given an Italian army to work with.

>>1251009

He was less social and "populist" than the Germans (while they were talking about income inequality and had programs like KDF that organized vacations for low-income workers, etc.), Italian Fascism was much more based on the idea that income inequality and related things are actually a good thing. Mussolini himself said that inequality shouldn't decrease but, quite the opposite, it should actually increase.

And while the Germans had rather scientific views on race (or at least a scientific approach to race, of couse science wasn't as advanced as it was today, they were still talking about "blood" while we today would say "genes", etc.), the Italians had an esoteric and romanticist view on race: Mussolini wasn't as antisemitic and actually allowed many Jews to work with him.

>>1250796
China.

Technology > spirituality.

>Street shitters vs Fetus eaters

What a hard choice

>>1250796
china probably

personally I don't give a shit about either of them

>>1250768
>Incompetent leadership? Disorganization?
nailed it, entire officer core all the way up the ladder was incompetent, to make up for it the enlisted soldiers werent motivated to fight

>>1250768
All of the above, in addition to massive logistical issues in almost all categories of supply.

>spaghetti rations

>>1250768

Pretty much "All of the above".

Italy was a colossal clusterfuck on almost every level imaginable. It starts, at least IMO, because of the relative weakness of the Fascist party in Italy as opposed to some other Fascist parties throughout Europe. Hitler could afford to just mass execute people without any risk of internal repercussions. Mussolini couldn't, not without risking his government being dissolved, which it eventually would be following Operation Husky.

So he did what a lot of people in weak political positions did, he played balancing games. People got appointed to government ministries on the basis of whose interests they represented, not on the basis of "can they do the fucking job?"

And when you have a bunch of people like this running the government, the military and social administration suffers for it too. Everyone remembers what a clusterfuck the Italian invasion of Greece was. What most people don't remember is that they pulled some 40% of their troops out of Albania on the eve of the invasion, because they realized suddenly that they didn't have enough people back home to bring in the harvest, and food prices going up would mean regime instability..... but of course it would also be bad for the regime if this invasion that was in the works for a few months would be suddenly canceled, so ahead they go despite the fact that you just sent almost half your troops away.

It can be summed up just like the Greece campaign.

Italy fucks everything up and Germany has to bail them out

The African campaign was a no win scenario for the axis. They would have loved to take the Suez, but without naval superiority or really naval presence in a significant way at all their logistics would always be strained.

Rommel did better than most could be expected to in his situation, hence why Africa and his action in France made him so famous, to the eternal buttdevastation of some. That isn't to say he didn't make mistakes but there's a good reason the guy's do famous.

>>1250662
>How did it start?

Italy entered the war. At that point, Italian Libya and British Egypt were right next to each other, and Mussolini thought he could get an easy win by just rolling across the border and squashing a force he outnumbered heavily, at least on paper.

>What was the end game?

I'm assuming that by this you mean that what were the various plans people had in place:

Italy, at least at the outset, was looking to conquer Egypt. That turned out to be a pipe dream, and from the end of the Compass counteroffensive, their goal was simply to hold onto Libya as long as possible.

Britain's goals were to create a front that they could fight on on terms of relative advantage, and ideally conquer/liberate North Africa from the Italians, and use it as a launchpad for further assaults, as well as to exert control directly over the Mediterranean.

Germany got involved in early 1941. Their goal was initially to prevent a collapse of Italian forces in Libya. In fact, the General Staff's goals stayed at that for pretty much the duration of North Africa as a theater. Rommel had different ideas though, and he wanted to drive the British into the sea.

>How did it end?

Eventually, the British gained the upper hand in the Egypt/Libya section, and the Americans landed in Vichy French North Africa on the other end. They squeezed the Germans and Italians back all the way to Tunisia. (Originally a Vichy French possession, but the Germans just grabbed it when it became strategically useful). They hold out for a little while in a succession of fortifications around Mareth and Tunis itself, but just get smothered by superior forces, culminating in a huge capture of forces at Tunis, something like 300,000 soldiers.

>>1250699
>>1250703
So it really does come down to Italy being shitalians? I was always curious about the whole Oil supply thing since they were also pushing for the oil fields in Ukraine.

>>1250565

>but after Rommel had succeeded in beating back allied forces he kept on going... Why?

Because Rommel was a glory hound with a very poor appreciation of overall strategy or logistical reality. He was an amazing tactician, won some battles when he made his initial landing, and kept assuming that if he could keep the magic going, keep winning battles, he'd win the war (or at least front) on pure virtuoso.

>I've heard the argument that the continuing of the campaign in Africa might have assisted in diverting allied resources from the other fronts

Honestly, he could probably do that better with an elastic defense around cyrenica than either of the alternatives you post. Also, the western Front when Rommel was on the offensive (1941-42) didn't really exist as such, and his overall force, of 3 German divisions and I think 5 Italian ones, would have been pretty small potatoes on the Eastern Front.

>Did he disrupt any real supply lines of note in Egypt or was it all for not?

It was all for nothing. The supply lines feeding Egypt pretty much went around Suez.

If you're interested in the subject, I would recommend The Path to Victory by Douglas Porch.

>>1250626
That was really informative, thank you anon. Could I get your thoughts on the campaign itself? Was Rommel victim to a number of tragic accidents (injuries and illness forcing him to take leave from Africa) and unforeseen events (SAS sabotaging of supply lines and American reinforcements) or was his loss a result of poor planning and lack of foresight as you suggested earlier?

>>1250695

>Was Rommel victim to a number of tragic accidents (injuries and illness forcing him to take leave from Africa) and unforeseen events (SAS sabotaging of supply lines and American reinforcements) or was his loss a result of poor planning and lack of foresight as you suggested earlier?


I would go more with the poor planning and lack of foresight. Another good read on the campaign's logistical side is this.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a348413.pdf

And yes, there were raids and problems all along the rear lines. SAS, strikes out of Malta, RAF forces taking potshots at things, but those really are foreseeable events, especially when your main supply tether is a hundreds of kilometers long "road" along the coast. He was spending some 30-50% of his fuel just having trucks going to the front and back from Tripoli hauling up all of the other stuff he needed to keep the advance going.

And a large part of it was, Rommel never really had to do this kind of thing before, he was a divisional commander along a main front, suddenly thrust to a theater command of a tertiary front. Before, at least for his career, getting supplies was a matter of making your case to your superiors that you needed them more than the next unit down the line, and how much you got from the goody bag was a reflection of your skills in persuasion and delivering results. If you could fight and win decisively, your superiors would be more inclined to be generous with fuel and munitions. Then he's pitched into a war where to get anything, you need to run past British raiders. And you only have one port of any size. And it's hundreds of kilometers away from where you're fighting. And you only have so many trucks, who themselves need to be fueled, maintained, cleaned, etc. It was one of the most logistically challenging theaters of the war, and this is a man with 0 logistical background put in charge of it all.

>>1250403
But christians like Tolkien had no problem with storytime.

>>1250432
>Tolkien
>Christian
xD

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>>1250437
>INB4 catholics are bagans

I AM THE SENATE

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>I have seen their backs before, madam.

>This is attributed to Wellington as a statement to an unidentified woman at a reception in Vienna, who had apologized for the rudeness of some French officers who had turned their backs on him when he entered, as quoted in Bartlett's Book of Anecdotes

Savage af

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>>1250256

>>1250161
John Green does a better job of explaining Alexander the Great I would recommend his video on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LsrkWDCvxg

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>>1250182
>11 minute video
>youtube

>not wanting Jeremy McInerney's voice on the Greek antiquity.

>>1250182
Go home John

Not exactly /his/ but Knights and Merchants is nice if you can tolerate the late DOS era graphics. It's available on Steam

>>1250048

Sudden strike

>>1250051
Oh, and if you want military then I recommend the Wargame series

>>1249654
Christianity. Seriously, it's all from the Bible.

>>1249654
Satanism. Seriously, it's all from the satanic bible.

>>1249654
>>1249879
>>1249897
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Freemasonry
http://www.stichtingargus.nl/vrijmetselarij/ritualen_en.html
https://mega.nz/#F!0BZj1LZb!XrvWqq9Q5E3bWF31dEweZQ

>>1249644
>has a slight medieval/religious connotation to it

inb4 the atheists of /his/ show up to decry it

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>>1249644
A luciferian parody of Christian symbols (the vesica piscis, the crane beaking its own chest) in a purely secular-demonic context.

It suits the UN's role as a tool of the N(J)ew World Order and precursor to the anti-Christ.

>>1249781
>crane
Actually pelican.

>>1249377

Barely credited by who?

>>1249377
Because they got real twitchy after the war ended.

Because of anti-soviet propaganda of the cold war.

>>1249250

non-whites have never contributed anything to science, philosophy, or academia.

all ancient civilizations were built by an ancient nordic ruling caste that was bred out due to forced interracial breeding imposed by ancient liberals

>>1249250
>or just a meme
Honestly kill yourself

The meme is that Islam during that time period is falsely represented as a unified political entity where there were multiple competing Islamic states.

That being said, progress is more likely to happen in places with positive economic conditions and during the middle ages, the Islamic world had the trade routes to the east and west run through it. The biggest decline in the Islamic world was when Europeans advance sailing and navigation techniques to bypass an increasingly hostile Ottoman state thus reducing the flow of money through those areas and making the Mediterranean largely irrelevant

It steals of ideas from Christianity.

>>1249145

If Jesus was also a time traveler who traveled back to 600 before he was born, I guess that would be true

>>1249145
>any religion stealing ideas from christianity
topkek