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how do we deal with ageism in tech industry

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I am 27 and I am scared to death of what I am gonna do once I hit 35. Ageism, unlike racism and sexism, is fucking REAL. In tech. Fucking employer niggers will always prefer code monkeys and kids to experienced programmers if they can do the same shit at a lower wage so they can sit on more profits/lower costs, fucking niggers. There are horror stories about very smart engineers looking for shitty jobs and can't even find any due to their age or the irrelevance of their expertise now in the industry
>>
If you want to avoid ageism just keep up to date and stop using LISP you fucking dinosaur
>>
>>61777290
Learn new shit. Make sure you're getting experience that's relevant outside your current workplace. Change jobs anyway every few years. If you wanna just sit back and not do that and claim you deserve employment because of seniority then you deserve the discrimination you get.
>>
>>61777451
you don't get me, do you? you see less and less programmers above 35, where do they go? unlike almost all professions except in sports, programmers are considered too old once they get 35, it's fucking scary.
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>>61777484
What happens at 35? Do programming skills atrophy at an exponential rate?
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>>61777484
That's because you're supposed to move to management at that age. If you haven't, then it tells two things:
1) you're a code monkey
2) you're really really like programming and have no desire to take on more responsibilities.

Either of those two options is not desirable.
>>
>>61777290
With 35 your startup should be worth at least some millions.
>>
So? learn a real skill. Or perish I guess.
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>>61777548
That's like a fancy way to say kys
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>>61777520
Ability to learn slowly fades away, as well as ability to work overtime. So being a web developer is basically a dead-end, and too many people don't understand that.
>>
https://youtu.be/SKbUJFFcdqg
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>>61777521
Is programming so skill independent that a green skin can replace a veteran?
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>>61777558
I don't know about that, there are plenty of doctors and nurses that work long hours with more pressure. Seems like some corporate scheme to keep profits high...
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>>61777569
>Is programming so skill independent that a green skin can replace a veteran?
No. OP is talking about himself as a hypothetical loser who doesn't have any skin. Essentially he's still a greenhorn.
>>
>>61777558
Not by that much, it's just as you get older you are less willing to hop on bullshit trends like the latest Javascript framework of the week because you have a family. You move from the guy exploring everything new to waiting for the dust to settle and growing an ecosystem around more mature products.
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>>61777569
it's always rapidly changing, your precious expertise can be useless within a decade and a kid can do better with his fresh knowedge
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>>61777521
How the the number two option not desirable?
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>>61777577
Doctors and nurses don't have to jump on new hype framework every fucking year.

If you're not some C/C++ micro-controller developer, you will be outrun by 20 y/o hipster programmer who doesn't have a family or hobbies to be busy with.
>>
>>61777553
P E R I S H
E
R
I
S
H

I like it.
>>
> you see less and less programmers above 35, where do they go?
Management.
IE, I'm 37, I really loved programming, but I outgrown it. It's just to small, to boring.
I'm moving to product owner role - not to create small piece of product, not to choose architecture, but develop full product.
>>
>>61777604
knowing that someone has zero desire to take on additional responsibility that does not involve coding (mentoring, planning, communicating with stakeholders etc.) vs someone who wants to learn something outside of their field and take on additional responsibilities is a big factor in making a hiring decision.
>>
>>61777290
Everyone has it tough, get over it.
Young people are expected to have a ton of experience and old people are expected to keep up with the young people.
Just do your job.
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>>61777290
>ageism in tech industry
it's very real
>>
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>>61777290
make your own company and only hire old > 30 y old people
either this or switch career path and become a yoga teacher or some shit
>>
Eat clean, train hard.

I'm 27 and people think I'm 22 because I take care of myself.
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>>61779972
It's mostly genes, senpai.
>>
>>61777290
That man is on the verge of death. His heart is so weak it cannot supply enough blood to his head or limbs.
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>>61780006
No. If you're 27, 300 lbs, don't socialize, don't exercise daily, don't sleep enough, smoke, drink, and eat junk food all day long you're going to look 40 no matter your genetics.

The biggest reason why healthy people look young is because they don't do the above things mentioned.
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>>61777290
when i was in engineering class long bak 10 ear ago i noticed , the strain it cause in my eye , also long sitting on chair cause strain .. i decided to look for other avenues ,with comp/internet side time .. and here i m .. also was in mba but left and found job tech related but not in coding somewhat like management

advice .. choose management over engineer.. move as quickly as possible if not done till 32 u r fucked
>>
>>61777290
keep up with trends instead of thinking you dont have to learn shit once you have your job.
>>
>>61780006
>Muh genetics makes me drink 2L of HFCS and sit around masturbating to anime all day
Wew
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>>61780006
>muh genes
>>
When you're 35 you should already have enoiugh to retire.
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>>61777290
>being a code monkey past 35
Go on to grad school and become a real computer scientist, work an academia
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>>61777290
Ageism is real and most of us will experience it. I've got one guy on my team that's almost 50 and he seems like a grandpa in comparison to everyone else.
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>>61777290

Ageism exists, to a certain extent. Especially in the more entry-level position. More mid-level, senior-level, positions would require someone with more experience (IE: older, almost by definition).

It also depends on the technology/language being used. The average programmer age for Perl is something like 40-50 years old, whereas something like node you'd see something more along the lines of 20-30 year old set.

In reality, however, most competent programmers are moved out of code monkey positions, to a more mentor/CIO/CTO/senior/managerial/supervisor position after 5-7 years. This is just natural progression of just about any industry.

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2016
>>
>>61777290
>>>/pol/
>>>/biz/
getting old and being unemployable is not technology
>>
Some people in this thread talk like ageism will never effect them personally.
>whistling past the employment graveyard
>>
>>61777290
I'm 28 and I've been turned down for jobs because I'm old and wise enough now to know that working 12 unpaid overtime hours a day is a sucker's game.
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>>61780653
Honestly though, if you don't have some kind of a business past 30 then you have pretty much failed as a human being.
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>>61780696
Enjoy explaining that to the boss's 22 year old nephew when you're 55 at a job interview.
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>>61780715
Oh wait, he probably already thinks that.
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>>61777290
>how do we deal with ageism in tech industry
Stop supporting ageist companies such as Intel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel#Age_discrimination_complaints
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>>61780186
>>61780216
I was talking about looking young, not being a fatass.

>>61780111
Being healthy certainly helps, but it's far from the only factor.
>>
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>>61780696
DELET
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>>61777610
That just means you have more of an excuse to point out how valuable you are if you do it, and argue for more money. I'd also argue that being a software engineer is a hell of a lot more fun than being a doctor. Also doctors DO have to keep up with the latest medical news -- if they don't, they become very unsuccessful very quickly.
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>>61777290
>the only real discrimination is the discrimination that affects me
>>
Lmao they discriminate way more against the young, shit pay, shit benefits, "it'll look good on your resume" bullshit.
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>>61780985
This
>>
I'm 27 and I feel like I'm just starting to understand things - both programming and life in general. I presume I'll become effective at the at of 35 approximately - study relative fields, make good habits and some sort of a structure in my life.

Maybe that's because I haven't received a proper education or that my parents are kinda stupid and didn't teach me anything. I've wasted a lot of time and I see those 20 year olds are not that different from me back then.

95% of them are useless and I don't see how anyone like them would replace me at 35. Other 5% percents graduate one of the top universities and raised in aristocratic or at least just smart enough familiy. They are far above me and always be unless they go "drink 2L of HFCS and sit around masturbating to anime all day" for a prolonged period of time.
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>>61781005
Young guys get shitty jobs.
Older guys get no job.
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>>61781042
Who was it that said, "Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans"?
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>>61781046
I am starting to like communism
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>>61781046
Older guys become managers and make a shit ton of money while going on about deliverables and streamlining agile processes.
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>>61781005

>brown people taking our jorbs
>omg I got the job ut it pays so bad and the 'benefits' stink!!!

Companies just looking out for their profit margin, mate. They don't care who you are, just like you don't care about who's selling the cheaper version of that anime doll on Amazon.
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>>61780696
>everyone should start their own business
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>>61781056
I don't feel like I'm "missing the life" if that's what you mean. It's just I've started to understand my position the and level of expertise which is very low for what I'd like to do.

Most of the software is shitty and useless nowadays, so my plan is to do as little "effective" work as possible for a living. I'm not good enough yet, just like those 20 year olds.

Even if my simple plan won't come to life and I'll be hit by a car and die - that's fine, I enjoy what I'm doing right now anyway.
>>
>>61777290
>not freelancing
wew lad
>>
the answer is simple, dont go into a tech field that involves IT
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>>61781394
t.underage american
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>>61781324
I said literally nothing about brown people, it was about the raw deal the young get compared to the old.
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>>61780431
>>61777521
>>61777655
>>61780132

fucking this. you should be in management by the time you reached 30. Step up your game anon
>>
No one lives in the real world in this thread.... Management at 30? Rofl!
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>>61777290
Just learn rust you fucking bigot
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>>61781477

>No one lives in the real world in this thread.... Management at 30? Rofl!

What world do you live in?
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>>61781431

You missed the point.
>>
in Europe there are a bunch of people that only finish their basic education in mid 30s

Linus Torvalds is a good example
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>>61781378
Yes they should. Old people manage stuff and young people work. It's how it's always been, I don't see why it should change.

A doctor first works in clinics and hospitals then he sets out to make his own clinic. A construction worker first works in companies then he becomes a contractor. A food service worker first works in restaurants then he starts his own restaurant. A software dev starts at a company then sells his own programs/apps. And so on and so on.

If you're 30+ and you have not started some kind of business then you wasted all your years in youth and are now destined to work yourself to the bone for a few morsels until you're 60 or you drop dead (whichever comes first).

You don't even need millions of dollars to start one. Many have started businesses with only a few grand.
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people only discriminate against oldfags when they hog junior level roles

no one gives a fuck if an older person provides a leadership or senior role. In fact they prefer it.

So if you're worried about looking too old in the eyes of an employer make sure you can provide leadership as a quality
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>>61777592
That's just plain wrong though
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>>61780431
>growth hacker

damn an I usually make fun of people calling themselves software engineers
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>>61781682
That's because your point had nothing to do with the post you were replying to.
>>
>WHERE DO THE OLD PROGRAMMERS GO

They become project managers and couch the younger ones.
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>>61779972
I'm 28 and I still can't buy alcohol or cigarettes without showing ID.

I eat crap. So yeah, genes.
>>
That's what you get for trusting /g/ and learning useless shit like lisp, C, haskell and perl.

Learn Java, C#, web shit (html js css), PHP, mainstream db (mysql, mssql, oracle), some Android/iOS, some basic leenux enterprise shit such as red hat, and boom you are employed.
>>
>>61780216
>the spic-nig cycle
top fucking jej
>>
Programming NEEDS ageism because it needs technology refreshing. If we keep the same 50yo programmers forever, companies will never move from dinosaur systems written in visual basic, because the old system JUST WERKS, and old programmers are confident with technologies of their age, very few mid-age men will change their mindset and migrate to fresh technologies.
>>
>>61781775
Imagine being this deluded. Gary Johnson isn't ever going to win an election, just so you know
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>>61782337
Are you saying you WANT to work for meager pay for the rest of your life and retire at 60?
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>>61782366
>the world is divided between codemonkey and """"CEO"""" of a startup
You can climb the ladder in a big existing company, you know.
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>>61782456
Climbing the ladder won't get you to the top. Yeah you'll get better pay as you keep climbing but why work that hard if you don't have to? As a business owner eventually you'll pay people to manage your business and watch as the money pours in while you scratch your balls on a private beach.
>>
>>61782519
How did the CEO get to his position?
>>
Get into management you stupid nigger
>>
Specialise.
>>
>>61782550
By sucking cocks up the ladder for years and years.

Also it's more realistic to start a business than to become a CEO.
>>
>>61782682
Moving up the ladder in various companies is how you get the connections to start a successful business
>>
>>61782850
That's what I implied when I said people start their businesses after they're 30. What did you think I meant, people under 30 who jack off to tohou characters all day long in their parent's basement?
>>
>>61781781
Elaborate more please
>>
>>61782519
Creating your own company won't guarantee you'll earn the same money than Amazon's CEO. A top manager in Amazon earns 100 times your sorry startup salary.
>>
>>61782682
You don't have to become the CEOat all costs, if you can get to a very good position you'll earn a ton of money regardless.
>>
>>61782941
So either way you have to move up the ladder so it is wrong in every way to say climbing the ladder doesn't get you to the top.
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>>61777290
As this is a children's board, I know nothing I say here matters, being that I am 54. Nonetheless, there is a slight chance that some of you might actually live to age 50, regardless of how convinced you are at this moment that you will remain 18 forever. Rest assured, no one, and I mean no one, will employ your sorry ass once you reach 45. You boys are fucked. Sure hope you hit the jackpot in the next 10 years because if you don't, it's the poor house for you.
>>
>>61785121
How do you keep bread on the table old man? You might be the last human generation to live to 50. We all might get wiped out by a virus once AIs gain real consciousness in a few decades.
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>>61785267

Where is Sarah Connor?
>>
>>61785121
>Live below your means
>Save money
>Freelance work

Their you go old fucks
>>
>>61785121
>Rest assured, no one, and I mean no one, will employ your sorry ass once you reach 45.
That's fucking stupid. I know a bunch of people that work past 50 the same way 20somethings do.
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>>61785895
BTW it helps if by that time you're an uber expert in some things and can train and lead your younger colleagues.
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>>61777484
Middle management, if you're 35 and you haven't got management skills, you're dead weight.
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>>61785927
>uber
It doesn't pay that well man.
>>
>>61777520
Programming gets tedious after a decade or so - especially for people with 120+ IQ it kind of requires. So most programmers either start their own tech firms, move to management or move to different trade once they start to reach midlife crisis.

source: I am a 38 yr old programmer who is considering exiting the trade and do more of CNC machining and/or creative writing. Because fuck it, solving someone else's problems gets boring after a while.
>>
>>61786171
>programming
>120+ IQ
There's a reason the position is so oversaturated and it's not because suddenly IQ scores are rising.
>>
>>61786223
To the contarary. There is a x-box huge vacuum for talent, just not for SQL databases or meme-web development.

My employer hasn't hired anyone for two years now because all youngsters can do is meme frameworks and some java bullshit.

On the other hand - attrition of older talent at my job is tremendous. When I started I was 2 years out of uni. Now I am third oldest person in my team ( about 20 people in total, and dropping ).
>>
>>61786279
>just not for SQL databases
then why does it seem like barely anyone in this industry knows how to design a database properly? I'm so sick of shitty databases designed by supposed "professionals" who then proceed to blame the DBMS for their incompetence and ignorance of the fundamentals and push for something even worse than SQL.
>>
>>61786279
>My employer hasn't hired anyone for two years now because all youngsters can do is meme frameworks and some java bullshit.

What does one need to know to be hired?
>>
>>61777290
le oldfag is mad heheheheheehehehehehe kys
>>
>>61777290
practice extreme calorie restriction and lie about your age
>>
Should have done an MBA
>>
>>61777319
you mean COBOL?
>>
>>61777290
As you get older, you should gain more experience. This should help you get positions of higher responsibility. A code monkey is base level and doesn't know jack other than syntax. Someone has to design, plan and document everything.
>>
>people glorify working as a technoserf
>>
>>61782519
>the money pours in while you scratch your balls on a private beach.

Lol, how cynical and deluded can you be?
>>
>>61787147
Somebody please answer
>>
>>61777290
start a business that utilizes your skills
you wont have to listen to some cuck order you around either
>>
>>61777290
Which debate was this fat guy from again?
>>
>>61785984
>>61777521
>>61781456

My dudes, I somehow doubt there would be enough positions like that for most programmers, only a select few would be able to transition to that role.
>>
>>61790228
this, the higher the position, the fewer the vacancies, there is only one CEO per company
>>
>>61777290
This is the most American picture I have ever seen
>>
>>61777290
get good and start your own business
>>
>>61787147
Know one language, any will do - including BASIC. What language you know is irrelevant since any project worth to invest your time in will have its own, unique development stack that is most likely heterogenous.

Programmers are made by knowing what interfaces are, what algorithmic complexity is or how to manage, debug, deploy and debug stuff.

Overall - general meta-knowledge is more important then knowing another BDSM-on-rails or some other bullshit language of the moment.

A competent programmer will switch to new language in a matter of weeks and he will produce quality code.
>>
>>61792345
Thanks
>>
>>61777290
Not in Europe.
>>
>>61777521
>>61777484
This isn't always what happens. Old programmers also shift into a maintenance/"I know three decades of stuff" role. Sometimes they can do this on contract and make a lot of money. Sometimes they get sidelined and don't make as much as they used to. Games programmers is the latter. Bank programmers is the former. Understand this.
>>
>>61777542
if every 35 year old programmer had a million dollar startup, the dollar would be a worthless currency.
>>
>>61789032
>>61777319
banks all around are throwing *serious* money at people who are fluent in such old languages right now.
they are starting to panic that all the good people will die out before they migrate their systems to something more modern
>>
>>61777569
no, but are disadvantages to taking an experienced, but not up-to-date skilled programmer that outweigh the costs of making a younger one experienced enough to do the task.

older programmers often stick to methods that make them design badly - back in the days security didnt matter, now it does.
back in the days performance mattered because the program just wouldnt run otherwise, now a performance-ignorant programmer at 200+€/h is worth spending another 5€/h for doubling up the hardware to support his badly optimized code.
>>
>>61794815
this, Javascript for example is replacing mobile and pc native development with bloat like React Native and Electron and noonecares, javascript is much faster, safer and easier to debug than C++ or Java
>>
>>61777622
>>
>>61777290
If you aren't providing value that backs up the salary you demand; you'll have to provide more value or lower your salary.

If you truly believe you're going to be underpaid and that this is a systemic issue, open your own company and hire other older people like you.

This is no different as cunts that whine about wage gap but don't realize that if it was true then companies would only hire women.

Negotiate your salary according to your worth. End of fucking story.
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>>61795724
t.NEET
>>
>>61777290
what type of IT company do you work for?
>>
>>61777548
>>61777553
>>61777622
>>61795390
NEW MAYMAY ALERT!
>>
>>61777290
>2014
>18 y/o
>dip my toes into cucklux
>it's lit
>learn poothon, JavaShit, C, C poo poo, C "I am very" Dull, and Haskell
>play some CTF
>apply to NSA for internship
>get internship

>2015
>decide I hate working for someone else
>start my own cybersec contracting firm
>hire recent grads from the NSA's uni list
>contract them out to the NSA and CIA because I kept in touch
>make dosh

I dropped out of college because I don't like taking humanities courses.
>>
>>61790155
Yeah, instead you get to listen to a hundred cucks order you around, your customers.
>>
>>61792345
Hey Anon, >>61794055 This is legit good advice. The dev-related jobs that I've had has been in a different language (language stacks, actually, polyglot full stack devs are king.) that I would learn on the fly.
>>
>>61797575
>greentext NEET fantasy post
>>
>>61798076
It's my blog, please smash that muffuckin like button.
>>
>>61797575
prove it or this is as fake as your mommy's tits
>>
>>61777290
im 19 and can suck my dick while programming
>>
>>61798643
Ok, pal what kind of proof you want?
>>
>>61777290
Keep a youthful exuberance and stay up to date on current tech trends. Companies these days are actually less likely to fire someone older because:
1. Vets are less likely to leave the position for a better gig.
2. Retraining a new, younger kid is a huge pain in the ass.
Just try to say relevant and you'll be alright. If you are fired for literally no reason, sue for discrimination based on age and then retire.
>>
>>61777484
They get paid more money to do less work (management).
Remember: A genius programmer is one who does twice the work for half the pay (or some variation of this phrase).
>>
You guys are saying it's pointless for me to learn to code because I'm 31?
I am already a mech eng but been doing it since I was 23 so getting a bit sick of it. Absolutely no desire to get into management either. Fuck that.
>>
>>61794082
Wrong.
>>
>>61799641
don't listen to retards
>>
>>61799641

How do you not already know how to code as an engineer? Did you not learn it at university?
>>
>>61800075
Only very elementary Visual Basic.
I can use MathCAD and Excel but no coding as such.
>>
>>61777290

You should kys for efficiency
>>
>>61799641

Learning programming gives you a leg up on the competition, but I wouldn't recommend it as a career.
>>
>>61800404
I'm a hydraulics engineer so it couldn't be further frm programming.
>>
>>61800357

That's strange. In my country most scientists, mathematicians and engineers are taught some form of programming in their first semester at uni.
>>
>>61800871
We had at least one module on it but that was 2007 and instantly forgotten.
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