Vi or Emacs?

>>61701773
Vim keybindings in VS Code, Intellij IDEA or Visual Studio.

What's the best for Python?

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Neither. I use the superior, cross-platform, well-rendered, fast Atom editor. This isn't 1985. Get with the times.

>>61701831
I might be illiterate but atom takes AGES to open in my ubuntu vm

>>61701879
>VM

>>61701831
Atom is anything but fast.

>>61701907
How can you argue that an ancient (synchronous) text editor is _faster_ than a modern, cross-platform runtime?

>>61701773
I like to believe nobody on /g/ uses emacs.

>>61701930
True, they are all repping Atom!

>>61701831
>editing text on a browser
lmao

>>61701930
I unironically use emacs for almost everything I do. Music, RSS, email, and programming.

>>61701973
Are you suggesting that the majority of the world never edits text in a browser? You are in for a rude awakening.

Editing text in a terminal "emulator". lmao.

>61701979
You disgust me. It's 2017. Grow up.

>>61702031
Sorry that you can't remember basic keybinds, brainlet. Enjoy your mouse.

>>61702119
VIM bindings mongoloid.

>editing text in an operating system

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>>61702031

>>61701930
i use stock emacs for org mode.

>>61701928
>modern, cross-platform runtime
Precisely therefore.

>>61701982
>Are you suggesting that the majority of the world never edits text in a browser?
No, only that it sucks and they don't know what they're doing.

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>>61701930
Whyever would you be hoping for such a thing?

>>61702595
> Literally hundreds-of-millions of people more successful than you don't know what they're doing.

Great logic. I hope you're not a programmer.

>>61702632
>hundreds of millions
Poo doesnt count

>>61702632
>hundreds-of-millions of people
You must be speaking of people who don't edit text for a living, unlike me.

Emacs FTW!

>>61701773
Emacs. Even though lisp is a retard commie language.

>>61702718
Wtf, I hate Emacs now.

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Vim.

Sublime

>>61701773

Learn vim first then transition to Emacs with evil. The emacs hotkeys are awful by default, but as a software package it's all I use.

Emacs has a ton of utilities, and plugins you can download.
Too bad it lacks a decent editor.

>>61702836
>The emacs hotkeys are awful by default
No they aren't. They are actually the first thing that attracted me to Emacs when I first started using it.

>>61702853
Different people like different things. We're definitely in the minority, though. A lot of people like vim keybinds.

I keep my keybinds mostly stock, but I use modalka for modal editing like vim so I don't have to hit ctrl nearly as much.

>>61702978
>modal editing
What are you using to get back out of insert mode? I like the idea of modal editing, but I do prefer using modifier keys to having to reach over to the Esc key all the time to switch modes. One of the main things that I like about stock Emacs bindings is that literally everything is available within the stands alphabetic part of the keyboard, so that everything is within the reach of my fingers and I never have to move my arms around to reach other parts of the keyboard.

i just use vanilla gedit

>>61703047
I just remapped caps lock to escape and then use escape to change modes. No sane person has a use for caps lock.

>>61703087
Not too bad, I guess, but I use caps lock to switch between keyboard layouts.

is hhkb good for emacs or vim?

>>61703047
Ctrl + [ is pretty good to get into normal mode.

>>61703493
True enough, hadn't considered that, will try the next time I'm using vi. Thanks for the tip.

>>61701879
>>>vm

>>61703445
Just as good for either. Emacs already keeps within the main part of the keyboard, so it would be exactly the same. Vim probably benefits more from it, since the Esc key comes closer.

>>61703231
how often do you switch between fucking keyboard layouts? I do it maybe once a day. I have it bound to meta+space bar.

>>61703987
Quite often; I use the US layout for anything programming or system related, but my native' country's layout whenever I need to type text in that language, so I switch back and forth on a fairly regular basis.

>>61701831
>tfw open a small css file
>it takes 13 seconds to open
I like using Atom but fucking hell it's so slow

>>61701773
>vi=vim
Off yourself subhuman scum.
The simple elegance that was vi got mutilated by some jew who wants you to donate to nigger babies in africa.
Certainly it wouldn't be fair to compare vi to the horrendous bloated mess that is emacs. Now emacs vs vim is ok since they are both overgrown piles of poo.

a vi clone with a decent extension language would be nice

perhaps scheme though i think neovim has lua

>>61704238
Have you considered using Sublime? It's far less autistic. Free key from CIA vault7 on WikiLeaks

>>61704822
I used to use sublime, I the feel and plugins for Atom more
No need for a key either, there are publicly available commands to modify the program so it's activated

>>61701822
chromaggus text editor is what I use. It's not a terminal-based emulator but it's still really good.

>>61703047

>reach over Esc

I wonder how is the emacs user world, esc is literally at the tip of the middle finger for every task done with keyboards on shells/terminals/multiplexers having it on the editor is just natural.

>>61704935
>esc is literally at the tip of the middle finger
No, at the top of the middle finger is the numbers row. In order to reach the Esc key, you need to move the whole hand up by an amount similar to reaching over to the arrow keys with the right hand. In Emacs' default bindings, literally every keybinding is within the main part of the keyboard.

Emacs with vim keybindings. It just makes the work flow so much better.

I can read programming ebooks and code on the side in the same environment.

I can keep schedules and todo lists

I can use a shell within the program

And many other things I still have no idea of.

I long for the day when the Emacs GUI browser is up and running.

>>61701773
vim for less bloat. its a text editor not an os within os, this isnt the matrix or inception

>>61705070

For me the main part of the keyboard are command keys, and it's important the fact I can activate them with a single hand.
Btw do emacs user tend to use the GUI front-end?
I think that is the main difference between vim and emac users, vim users tend to couple it with shell tools and pipe stuff in to it with tiling wm or terminal multiplexers while emacs users do everything inside of it.

>>61701773
I don't care what editor you use as long as it's Turing complete. Personally though, I use Vim because it's elegantly lightweight, simple, and yet powerful. Emacs gives you much more customization, I'll give it that.

Nano

>>61702722
>written by McCarthy
>commie

What's a good emacs tutorial?

>>61706411
the info pages and experimentation

>>61701831
I vomited a little.

>>61701773
I use Emacs it really excels at working with any language with a REPL. I can also easily use debuggers, git, switch easily between projects, and edit remote files.
Emacs has also completely infiltrated my personal life, since tools like org-mode and ledger-mode are vastly superior to other tools. The strength of Emacs is in customizing it so that it fits your workflow exactly.

I haven't used Vim much, but it seems like it appeals more to a terminal-centric workflow alongside other tools, as opposed to the Emacs swallow-everything-including-the-terminal philosophy.

Emacs

>>61701879
>>>/v/
You fucking manchild faggot

>>61701831
>fast
it takes 10 seconds to open up and lags during editing even on small files

>>61701773
VIM for editing text (like configs or some small stuff)
emacs - as IDE (and more!)

>>61702631
that's one disgusting color scheme

I almost always have Emacs open for one reason or another, I wish my whole computing environment was more like it.

Vim is neat, I like its editing model, but trying to cram extraneous features into it is like flogging a dead horse. I would love to see some kind of revival for Acme, looking into it really blew me away. It makes Vim's 'Unix as your IDE' implementation look incredibly clumsy and backwards by comparison. However, it's really not at home on Linux.

>>61705333
>command keys
What are the "command keys"? By the main part, I mean the part that contains the alphabetic keys.

>Btw do emacs user tend to use the GUI front-end?
I can't speak for others, but on my main computer I use the X front-end, yes. However, with the menubar and toolbar turned off, it's basically identical to the terminal front-end except that all keys are usable. I do use the terminal front-end over SSH connections, though, and the difference is minimal. The most I notice is that M-C-S-v can't be used in the terminal.

vim desu

also you should be using vimfx with your browsers

>>61701831
>atom
>not vim
get the fuck out of my face

>>61709008
>Acme, looking into it really blew me away
Why, if I may ask? As soon as I saw that it was mouse-focused, I was immediately disgusted.

>>61701928
>modern, cross-platform
GNU Emacs runs on pretty much anything as well. Try running Atom on Android, I dare you.

>not using notepad++
weak

>>61709718
man I lost that fizzbuzz webm of acme that shit was really dope

>>61701773
nano

nvim

>>61701773
I use Vim so I can be useful on any terminal

>>61701773
GNU Emacs with some setup like Prelude or Spacemacs

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>>61701773

>>61701831
>fast

atom is literally the slowest text editor out there

>>61701773
neither

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>>61701773

>>61710825
>esc
>q!

Spacemacs evil mode

>>61701831
Vim8 is asynchronous and the time you take to load Atom on a single file I'm already editing 2 different files. Vim let's you edit code at the speed of thought. Fucking hipsters...

>>61711694
How hard is it to figure out Emacs if I've editing with Vim for 6 months?

>>61709718
regarding the mouse usage you can can read this[0], I believe that in that document there is also a link to a web page that talks about "scientific" evidence of the mouse being faster of the keyword usage, is also interesting to read about this topic the papers about acme(1)[1] sam(1)[2] and another one that in don't remember about the blit terminal or one of the first about plan9 that explain the reason for the mouse usage instead of falling into using more and more complicated key bindings

[0] http://fqa.9front.org/fqa8.html
[1] http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/acme/
[2] http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/sam/

>>61701822
Atom for basic scripts, PyCharm for projects.

>>61712467
I've been*

>>61712469
keyboard*
I*

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>>61712469
>I believe that in that document there is also a link to a web page that talks about "scientific" evidence of the mouse being faster of the keyword usage

>>61712627
please notice the
>I believe
and by the way I'm taking about things like text selection in opposition to ctrl - v jjjjjhhkkkkklllkk

>>61712469
9front is soo sexy! It's a pure joy to browse web-pages made by maintainers of the project.

Vim's a trash editor. What I want is modal editing.

>>61701773
Emacs if you enjoy Lisp and don't have any vi muscle memory yet (evil is shit), otherwise vim.

>>61701831
8/10

>>61712801
>ctrl - v jjjjjhhkkkkklllkk
See, that is precisely why PC editors suck in comparison with either Emacs or vi. Proficient users don't select text like that, unless in very tiny amounts, in which case it is indeed faster to type a few repeated keys instead of reaching for the mouse.

JetBrains and their products

>>61702631
ah, the old favorite "boogers on raw sewage" color scheme

>>61714851
Praise be to he who invented it!

>70MB xml file
>disable syntax highlighting
>open with sublime
>10 seconds to load on SSD
>try vim
>loads immediately

why are you guys using meme editors again?

>>61714756
>See, that is precisely why PC editors suck in comparison with either Emacs or vi. Proficient users don't select text like that, unless in very tiny amounts, in which case it is indeed faster to type a few repeated keys instead of reaching for the mouse.

I've used, and I'm still using, vi for a long time, the problem with it is:
let's say that I hahe to reach a point on the fourth line, beginning from top and a few characters back from the end of the line being at the last one on the screen, I'd press Hjjj$WWWhh vs using the mouse and just clicking it.
The mouse is just conceptually easyer to use an is the same for selecting regions of text.

>>61715545
have*
easier*
fuck telephone keyboard

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>>61701773
im considering moving to emacs because of evil mode
am used to vim for a few years already but emacs seems neat and evil mode makes it attractive

>>61715545
>I'd press Hjjj$WWWhh
That's because you suck. I can't speak for vi as I don't use it enough, but in Emacs, there's bound to be ten different ways to reach that particular point in virtually zero time. Also, even if I had to type Hjjj#WWWhh (which I wouldn't), that would still be faster and more effortless than reaching over to the mouse, interactively reaching the point I want, and then reach back over to the keyboard again.

>>61715645
>there's bound to be ten different ways to reach that particular point in virtually zero time
Just to expand on that, which ways those are obviously depends on the point I want to reach, but there are a plethora of options including, but not limited to, I-search, the balanced-s-expr-movement commands, prefix arguments with movement commands, move-to-window-line and friends, &c. The fact that the mark/point mechanics of Emacs make selection non-modal is a great thing.

>>61711063
>q!
NANI?!
fuck i'm retarded, i've always used quit! didn't think there was such a thing

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can you do this in emacs? (not evil mode)

>>61715917
>gib me money
uninstalled the moment I saw that.
back to vi.

>>61701773
omfg, ED, you fucking fagthots

>>61710825
:q!

>>61715917
You can do anything with lisp.

>>61716004
incorrect, most people are too stupid to do a singLe thing in LISP, that's why you're taught 3 days old boilerplate frameworks and told to shut the fuck up in codemonkey camp

>>61715712
Is the same for me I don't use Emacs enough to speak for it but assuming that what you say about using the mouse is true I don't think it would be the same whit multiple windows/frames/buffers (however Emacs calls them) opened, you first have to move to the selected one, whit some number of binding and then reach the text with the mouse is the same just point and click, even worst if the text is outside of Emacs, because even if know it integrates x widgets and webkit you still have to leave it sometimes, so you have to switch mindset use your wm keybindings and so on whit the mouse it's still the same.

Vim

>>61701979
so far I used emacs only as an command line editor. But I do want to start to use it for more.
How can I add themes for syntax highlighting and stuff like that?

>>61702631
What are you working on anon

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>>61715545
You are blaming vi for your own lack of skill and knowledge with it. Here I have an example image, red cursor. I want to reach the first character of Controller on the line with onDisconnect.

If I were as bad as you, here's a way I might do it.
Hjjj$bb

Since I'm not, here are a few other less dumb ways to go about it.

?di<cr>fC
or, after looking at the relative numbers:
29kfC

Even though these aren't many keystrokes shorter, it's much, much better because each only has two logical 'movements' accomplished in a single step, rather than going line by line or word by word, which is the worst thing you can do. And in the former case, you can ctrl-O to jump back to where you were before the search, which is also invaluable.


I bet you don't even use text objects. Here, read this.
https://gist.github.com/nifl/1178878

>>61715917
>writing fizzbuzz in fucking regex languages instead of a lisp

>>61716252
that's because you already thought about what moves you have to do. In real life

> mouse is faster
> moving the mouse doesn't distract you from the actual editing

and by the way, you don't need to be that fast, even if you actually are not

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>>61715917
Thank you, thank you.

>>61716231
That was just a small malloc wrapper to debug a use-after-free problem I had a little while ago.

>>61716252
>>61716570
That's exactly the point I knew about the language of ex/vi, and I don't have put in doubt its power in fact has been even extended in sam whit command like x, and to use something like
>>29kfC
you have to look first to the actual line number and then to the letter that you want to find making sure that is the only one on the list because otherwise you will have to press ; a bunch of times until you reach it without the looking at multiple file things. In the end some of the things demonstrated in that answer works just for standard kind of text areas if it's irregular you are fuck and it's just easier to use the mouse.

>>61701809
This. Currently working on a 1.6GHz piece of shit and this almost redeems it.

>>61701979
going full stallman i see

>>61702631
where is your mongolian flipbook wallpaper

>>61716570
>that's because you already thought about what moves you have to do
But that's exactly where you're wrong. Once you've used vi/emacs for a little while (it doesn't even take that much), those kinds of commands are second nature.

You're wrong either way about the mouse being faster, though. It literally takes less time and effort to perform 20 simple movements in a row like your first retard-example than it does to move your hand to the mouse, use it, and return to the keyboard. Arguably the greatest problem with using the mouse is that it must be its nature be interactive, whereas you can plan keyboard commands ahead and just batch them out, whereas mouse usage require feedback to get to the right place, so even if it doesn't take longer (which it does), it still requires much more attention.

>>61717322
There's a reason I don't participated in the desktop threads even before they were banned. I don't even use a DE.

I'm not sure why people are so vehement about the mouse being slower than the keyboard in all cases. This seems plainly untrue if you consider the matter for more than a moment. A pointing device is very well suited to extracting a visible segment of text that's currently visible and even as an almost dedicated keyboard user I tend to defer to it in this way.

What slows it down is distance from the keyboard, having to move your arm takes up some time, as does finding where the cursor actually is on the screen to begin with. I find the nipple mouse on laptops much nicer to use than a desktop mouse for this reason and the latter problem is solved by a key shortcut to snap the pointer to the centre of the current window. With this the mouse is actually very nice to use as a supplement.

Completely mouse-driven GUIs are a different matter and tend to be complete failures when it comes to speed and efficiency

>>61719772
As a side-note, Emacs actually has a bit of nice functionality tied to the mouse that often goes unnoticed.
A single right-click will mark everything between the text-cursor and the pointer, While a double right-click kills in the same way. This means you can left-click once to place the cursor and then right-click to mark/kill a block.

In my experience this is considerably faster than any text-jumping functions like Avy (which is also great).

>>61719772
>I'm not sure why people are so vehement about the mouse being slower than the keyboard in all cases.
IMO, it's not so much about actual speed (as many will point out, absolute speed isn't really that important anyway since you spend relatively little time actively typing/editing anyway) but much more about comfort, attention and diversion.
More than likely, this is going to differ between people, but I just find using the mouse to require a ton more of my attention than it does using keyboard commands to navigate. Not entirely sure why, but probably because using the mouse to get to a point requires active feedback -- I have to follow the cursor with my eyes and correct my movement according to what I see, whereas with keyboard commands, I can see ahead to a much larger extent what movement commands I will need to get somewhere and just batch them out.
It's also about comfort in that my wrist just really doesn't like the mouse and mouse usage makes it start ache a bit, whereas I just don't have that problem with the keyboard. Certainly, moving the arm back and forth between the keyboard and mouse doesn't help the comfort part either.

And I do think those aspects are more important than absolute speed. What matters, in the end, is how small edits you feel are "worth it". If you see a slightly indentation error or some tiny formulaic improvement you could make somewhere across the screen, is it worth the effort to go and fix it, or are you just going to leave it there? There's always going to be some marginal change that isn't worth it, but improving your personal comfort so as to push that margin as far as possible is always a good thing.
That being said, I may be open to the possibility that mouse usage just comes more naturally to some people in such a way that using a mouse-centered editor is better for them. Though it's hard for me to believe that they're not just making a bad decision due to not having gone up the learning curve of a proper editor.

>>61716252
>>61715545

You could just use :4$bb

>>61702853

The editor commands are inferior to vim.

>>61701773
Spacemacs.

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>>61702722

Notepad++

>>61701773
Emacs with Evil, Vim, Sublime with Vintageous, maaaybe VS Code with Vim bindings if my life depended on it.

Emacs is more finicky with configs but easier with non-editing controls than Vim. Vim has easier config but has completely retarded non-editing controls. Sublime has excellent non-editing controls but many are mouse-driven. VS Code is a fucking Chrome instance, so I'm weary of it.

>>61721068
You didn't get my example first I didn't meant the absolute fourth line in the file but the one on the screen and second I, also, didn't meant the second last word but some arbitrary amount of character back the end of the line, here the need for the h command a few time

>>61720067
>Though it's hard for me to believe that they're not just making a bad decision due to not having gone up the learning curve of a proper editor.
the I challenge you to use acme for some time, a week a month whatever time it takes you to get used to it, and then go back to the usual keyboard only interface and I bet you'll see the difference.

>>61710825
>>61711063
>>61715785

>still using :q!<Enter>
ZQ -> Quit without saving
ZZ -> Quit with saving

>>61722849
This.

>>61701831
>chrome window to enter text

I don't know anyone who travelled from emacs to vim, but I know tons of people who done it from vim to emacs. My path was Atom -> Sublime > VScode -> Emacs -> Trying Vim -> Emacs.
Vim feel very unfinished simple editor, Emacs feels like a big finished product. Emacs extensions is much better integrated(and I find them itself better than vim exts), Emacs got daemon-mode, Emacs can run in x11 without any bullshit additional software, Emacs have org mode, Emacs have lisp instead of shitty vimscript, Emacs can be riced much better. And also my personal reason - I don't like "modes" in vim

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>>61715917
Yep, you just run fizzbuzz

>>61702836
Use SPACEMACS

>>61701773

Vim.

>>61718236
you seem retarded. it is faster going on a specific coordinate visually than having to calculate how many words/line you have to move unless in specific cases where you have to move relatively close to the dot. Also, when using the mouse you can keep in mind the actual edit, in the other case you can't.


vim/emacs are a bit like karate, it looks like it works, but in reality works only when staged and you already know what to do in advance

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>>61726084
let vim count it for you

>>61723360

You can have numbered lines while editing so you'd just spot them and move to it directly, also since it was an arbitrary character from the end it would be even faster with a single b given that you could infer where it is more close to the end or the last blank space. But yes, you would need at least one more press to h or l. Anyway it's not possible you get it faster than reaching the mouse and back against the already positioned fingers.

>>61726847
>You can have numbered lines while editing so you'd just spot them and move to it directly
of course... pretty much every editor on earth has that...
>Anyway it's not possible you get it faster than reaching the mouse and back against the already positioned fingers.
In the beginning yes of course, after using vi/Emacs for years to select text how could it be otherwise?
But once you get used to reaching the mouse and pointing using it you'll start to see the difference.

>>61727113

My phrase went totally backwards to what I intended to mean.

It should be:

It's not possible you get it faster than using the shortcuts for the already positioned fingers as opposed to reaching the mouse and back.

>>61726084
>calculate how many words/line you have to move
As I already said, counted movement is only one of the many tricks available. There's also stuff like I-search and balanced-sexpr movement, to only mention some things. The whole point is that there's an entire toolbox of movement tools available, and when you get used to it, you don't consciously "count lines", it literally becomes second nature and you see the movement commands before you when you look at where you want to go.

>Also, when using the mouse you can keep in mind the actual edit, in the other case you can't.
What does that even mean? That using keyboard commands is enough of a diversion that you have to push the edit out of your mind? Because if so, I find the case to be the exact opposite. Keyboard commands just flow naturally, while using the mouse is enough of an interactive diversion that it forces the actual edit out of my mind.

>>61701773
how many times are we going to discuss this? even reddit is over it already.

just try it and decide for yourself and fuck off.

Vim if you want a really good knife
Emacs if you want a really good multi tool

>>61727501
>It's not possible you get it faster than using the shortcuts for the already positioned fingers as opposed to reaching the mouse and back.

That depends for certain things even acme has keyboard shortcuts[1] but in my opinion except for those cases the mouse is just better, in my opinion of course, all the rest should be done by dsl like the extended regular expression, awkward and the editor commands g v d j etcetera etcetera.

[1] http://acme.cat-v.org/keyboard

>>61716660
very good very good

I am learning emacs after using vim for a long time, but how do I get into elisp programming and managing extensions?

>>61728048
Read the elisp manual that comes with emacs.

use-package is the best system for managing extensions. It lets you declare packages you wish to have available and their configuration in one block, rather than that information being spread all over init.

Emacs is objecively better and much more polished than Vim. It also has much better package support and integration and the average quality of packages is very high. I say this as a vim user for 7 years.