Is it true that c is better than c++?

Ah fuck here we go again...

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meh.

any programming language is what you make of it.

Depends on the application. That said C++ is pretty bloated so best practice is to strictly use a subset of it from my experience.

>>61687732
they are both garbage unless you are doing shit close to the machine. Don't use either unless you absolutely have to. Having that amount of freedom is where 90% of security vulnerabilities in OSs come from

>>61687732
I'm really tired of this shit. No language is any better or worse than the other. Its the tool for the job that matters.

I wouldn't make a house out of pillows if it needed a strong foundation, nor would I power a single light bulb with a nuclear reactor. The point is, learn what you need to get the job done.

If you have a specific project and you're wondering what is the best tool for the job, ask that instead.

>>61687774
It's a fucking multi paradigm language you idiot, you're SUPPOSED to use some subset of it.

>>61687778
hurr durr code that actually does shit has more security vulnerabilities.

Both are pajeet tier crap. Learn Scala/Clojure/Rust/Elm/Lua

Everything I admire is written in c
Everything they admire is written in c++

>>61687805
/thread

>>61687792
other high level programming languages are just as Turing complete as lower level ones

>>61687805
>rust
>calling c/c++ pajeet tier

>>61687778
>Litterally the dumbest thing I've read in decades.

I'm done with this retard board. I bet none of you can code.

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>>61687805
>rust

>>61687816
>>61687792
Samefag. Rust is like getting herpees on your eyeballs.

Also, c/c++ is crap for pajeet monkey coders who can't programming in declarative style. In normal languages you just use .map() or .flatMap(). In c-shit to loop through array you must fucking create another variable and increment it until it will be size of array.
>>61687828
>>61687838
>I'm pajeet, I like crap from the 70's because I'm too dumb to learn modern system developing language like rust. I'm retarded monkey coder therefore I'm incrementing fucking variable to loop

>>61687856
show me your shitty rust loop

>>61687856
You have to be a fucking retard to not realize that most languages are based on C. That and C, being as old as it is, is still used and can do everything a higher level language can do, so long as the programmer is competent.

Enjoy your Rust. It will be another hobby language stuck in Mozilla's ecosystem. I bet you think Mr. Robot is cool too.

>>61687867
std::iter::flatmap

>>61687856
>Rust
My sides.

>>61687876
>C can do high level programming
Cool pajeet monkey coder stories. Go increment fucking variable to loop
>It would be
Like a c-crap that is stuck in shitty legacy code and shitty embedded shit because in modern world no one will use this poo for new project?

>>61687805
>rust
Get the fuck out of here you pussy hipster sjw CUNT

>>61687890
That's your only rhetoric isn't it? Calling people that disagree with you an indian person. How pathetic.

Please go develop a system in rust and fuck off.

>>61687898
So why are you sjw, commie?

>C/C++ is Pajeet now
I'm not joking, our offshore Pajeets can literally only program in Java. I would not trust them to understand pointers and memory management.

>>61687904
You don't have any arguments and you failed in this debate, pajeet commie.

>>61687913
I would not trust anyone who is writing on c if it's not embedded and c++ if it's not games/qt

>>61687913
That faggot is just a Rust shill. Anyone in the tech industry knows that Java is the real pajeet language, and C is the language of Gods.

Rust is for fecal-matter loving people.

>>61687828
>Litterally the dumbest thing I've read in decades.

low level OS operations have been done in C for a very long time. The freedom of allocating one's own memory is a huge a potential security issue, even for experienced developers. Where other compilers would stop you and say your array is out of bounds, C just lets you keep writing. There was a linux vulnerability a couple years ago that had been there for a very long time where underflow was not checked on the password input, meaning a user could backspace out of the password input, back into memory and overwrite key values at different points, giving them root access. The only real benefits to using C is your close control of the space you use and manual garbage cleanup shit, but that comes at the cost of needing to check everything that any other languages compiler would already do for you. That said, you are so fucking dumb that you don't know how dumb you are. Do you have any idea what you sound like to the rest of us? gb2 free code camp bub, maybe you can design an app that will post stupid shit for you so you wont have to.

>>61687920
>h..hey guys I like rust
some one disagrees
>y..you're a pajeet commie

This is why we need abortions.

>>61687920
Lol okay kid.

>>61687936
Language of Gods is Clojure and Haskell [spoiler]I don't know Haskell, only basic concepts[/spoiler]. C is pajeet monkey language for pajeets who increment variable to loop because their language is shit from 70's

>>61687951
>>61687958
Commie, go increment variable.

>>61687938
That same vulnrebility was fixed. C is as good as the programmers that write it. It may be dated, and I'll agree with most of your post, but You're fucking retarded if you think rust is the end-all to systems development. When you learn to program, you'll know that you can use C to manage memory in a competent way. Enjoy your shit posting.

>>61687970
>>61687995
We /pol/ now.

>>61688003
lol i have no idea what you are talking about with rust. I never mentioned it. I've never even used it. But with regards to C, it's negative aspects make it only worth using when you can heavily rely on the benefits of the language

>>61688020
Pol is shitloaded by these nazi left-wingers.

>>61688030
I see, and I agree. C is depricated as hell, but it's still one of the best languages to use for embedded and systems development. I think most issues with C isn't really the languages fault however, but more so on the programmer. C and Assembly are still the mecca for low level work.

>>61688074
Only because rust compilers for stm32/pic/avr and other shit are not good enough

>>61688085
No. Because no one outside of the HN + /r/programming filter bubble gives a shit about Rust

>>61688115
>That reeing of pajeet monkey who projecting and thinking anoyone in 2017 gives a shit about c

>>61688074
I work in that industry and this is correct. However, there's a push to use more C++ and also higher level languages for doing code generation (taking a hw spec and converting it to a C driver, for example).

>>61688085
Yeah, I've been using Rust to experiment with a cortex m4 and the binary sizes are ridiculous.
It will be interesting to see if the major comercial compilers jump in the Rust fad.

>>61688126
nothing wrong with C bub, but have fun coding in your trendy language

>>61687778
>4th reply
>rust shill
That was fast.

>>61688146
>The language is dead
>Nothing is wrong

>>61687856
>haha fucking C programmers they have to create a variable but my abstraction layer does it for me!!!! XDDDDD

>>61688085
Thats not why lol?
Rust uses crap like "traits" which can't really access the minimal work for abstract functions.

Rust also relies heavily on C bindings for basic implentations. If I need to use C to use a languages core features, I might as well just program the software in C.

Rust is also slow in comparision to C or C++. If you're doing systems development, why risk memory safety (a problem that can be easily solved in C) for less speed.

I want to like rust, but it really sucks. Its just another attempt at killing what already been done.

>>61688175
>Pajeet can't into FP

>>61688155
see
>>61688030

why does everyone think im arguing for rust? ffs

>>61688126
Wow this post is so try-hard.

>>61688206
Pajeet commie, why you can't into FP?

>>61687732
Left is trap
Right is landwhale

>>61688192
Sorry dude, you're getting sucked in with that Rust shilling faggot that ruins every programming thread. Its a hate that most of /g/ shares. But I know you're not him. You're actually intelligent and expressed your posts quite well.

>>61687732
Programming languages are tools to do programming.
It is like comparing a screwdriver and an electric screwdriver.
It is different tools and you build different things with it.
C++ is easier in a lot of ways and you can make libraries that is a lot better and easier to use.
C++ is better for desktop applications where you need to make something that is fast, yet easier to make.

C is only superior for individual project.

>>61687850
>This amount of buttmad
Sad

Rust >> C++
There, I said it

>>61688224
>Left is trap
C it is then.

>>61688494
Idris > rust

Uniqueness Types > your "safe" pointer garbage

>>61688709
No GC > GC

RAII is better than your GC garbage

>>61687732
No
C++ has tons of more features than C. Why would you use C?

>>61687732
Of course not.

>>61688717
Linear Types will remove the GC for several cases and there's an interest in running on arduino which means no GC will happen. There's already interest in reflecting on MLKit

>>61688797
Not very convincing

>>61688810
Look at Control.ST, we're already managing resource usage. It won't be long until we manage more without the mess of C

>>61688832
Keep working and come back when you finally remove GC, until then don't involve in arguments that don't depend on GC. It's not your ballpark.

>>61688740
Why would you need more features?

Do you have a mere idea of the consequences of having some many features crammed into a language?
Compilers are too complex, no one C++ dev understands each other and finally what will kill C++ is the cost of both training devs to program in C++ and maintaining software by only highly-qualified programmers. Businesses are avoiding C++ like the plague now...

>>61689035
ok, let me just write my own string, list, dynamic array, hashmap, filesystem (cross-platform too), and then get to the actual work

>>61689092
>my own string, list, dynamic array, hashmap
You should use library, although implementing those is trivial.
>filesystem
Why would you implement your own filesystem?

>>61689180
>You should use library
Or I could just rely on a well-tested, well-implemented, standardized C++ standard library
>implementing those is trivial
I don't give a damn how easy these things are to implement because I can't waste time with this kind of work. I have actual projects to work on because I have bills to pay. No wonder /g/ is full of NEETs who feel superior because they can implement a linked list in C and then run around screaming that the C++ STL is bloated.
>Why would you implement your own filesystem
Filesystem functionality is what I wanted to write, but I missed a word or deleted it by accident.

>>61687856
>can't in2 pointer arithmetic
>rust
nigger pls

>>61689334
Did he say he can't into pointer arithmetic?

>>61689092
you'd be better off writing your own hashmap desu, std::map and std::unordered_map are specced to run like shit

>>61687732
both are shit desu

also both are too old

>>61689393
>ye olde boogeyman
Just say they both suffer from the same common design drawbacks, that would be more believable.

>>61689393

Fuck off Pajeet

also

>Rustfag ITT

embarassing

You all know that "C/C++ killer" languages die eventually and never go mainstream. Rustfags are either too young or too stupid.

>remember D and other attempts
>Where are they now?

Same shit will happen with Rust. Large companies used it few times only to play around, they do that with every fucking language.

Rust will NOT succeed in any way.

>>61689440
D could have worked if it weren't for the heavy GC reliance. Its C and C++ interop is excellent.

>>61689416
we learned a lot about language design and actually useful and necessary features in the past 30 years, so yes they suck because they're old

>>61689463
a shame no language exists that is as versatile as C++ while being more cleanly designed

>>61689463
>so yes they suck because they're old
>but all mainstream language runtimes are still written using them
>all large applications with speed and optimization requirements such as relational databases are still written in them
>oy vey they suck

Do you have really really BETTER alternative? Not marginal Rust used by 0.5 anons or some stuff like that. No? then fuck off.

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>>61689440
>remember D and other attempts
>Where are they now?
D has been around since 2001, and while it isn't exactly a widely used language, it's still alive and growing, despite having no corporate backing at all.
I tried it and I loved it, I find it a bit of a shame that it hasn't become more popular yet.

Is it true that Queen's English is better than ebonics?

just think how ridiculous safe(er) programming looks like in c/c++, what you must do to ensure that a+b+.., a-b.., a*b... etc don't overflow

c/c++ must be banned from OS development desu

C is more widely used to be honest. Majority of C++ code is "C with classes", modern C++ such as C ++ 11 / 14 is rarely ever used.

It became too fucking much bloated and hard to learn/understand. STL and boost are pain, smart pointers, RAAI and etc. Its just too much for most people.

So yeah, if you ever come up with real life project in C++, its probably C with classes and not modern C++. Even in gay(ame) development.

Not to mention that OS and large software such as PostgreSQL and virtual machines etc all are written in pure C

So yeah

basically

>Pure C, C++ with classes > modern C++

>>61687732
In terms of /pol/ pajeets and schoolkids C is better because writing hello worlds in C makes them look like reddit-tier hipsters. In terms of senior engineers both of them are good tools, both serve their own purposes and depend on a problem.

>>61689523
>C++ with classes > modern C++
absolutely disgusting

>>61689540
* /pol/ -> /g/

>>61689476
> Do you have really really BETTER alternative?

everyone can think of ways to improve them, add shit or change ridiculous syntax no those primitive fossils

but it will never be done for obvious reasons and new language designers want to be "different" so they go too far also

>all large applications
this is a bad excuse and it's not even true, there are many very important large java apps ... basically the entire computing infrastructure above OS

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>>61689575
>Java
>Important large apps except ENTERPRIZE XDDDD Pajeet shit

>>61687856
> normal languages you just use .map() or .flatMap()
And you think those functions don't have a loop inside them?

>>61689591
yeah yeah, totally dude

keep being ignorant

>>61689593

What did you expect from Pajeet

>>61689593
Those can be transparently parallelized.

>>61687732
Yes. Without a doubt.

>>61689641

>>61690565

>>61689616
If the function applied doesn't have any side-effects, yes. If it does, however, they cannot.

>>61690743
The order side effects are applied should be undefined in a map function. Otherwise there's no point in it.

>>61690755
>The order side effects are applied should be undefined in a map function
That's a good point, I didn't consider that.

>>61687732
Depends on what you use the said language for. There are things C does worse than C++ and vice versa. Anyone that says otherwise should off himself and give up on programming.

>>61687732
No.
C++, even for low-level code is (today) a better choice, safe for exotic niche circumstances that will never concern more than 0.0001% of all developers.

Thanks to its templates and compile-time optimization its not rare to have code that runs faster than C, not to mention safer.

And since C++11/14/17 there is no excuse anymore to not use it.

When people claim its bloated, they mean that they cannot use all features in one project, which is true and working as intended.

After all every single game engine and most large-scale programs where execution time is important are written in C++.

>>61690856
whoops, sorry for reddit-spacing, I thought those would be paragraphs.

>>61690856
>Thanks to its templates and compile-time optimization its not rare to have code that runs faster than C, not to mention safer.
There are plenty of C++ abstractions that run slower than C for various reasons, but if you're smart you can write faster C++ than C.
>And since C++11/14/17 there is no excuse anymore to not use it.
I'd say there was no excuse to use C++ until C++11. C++98 was horrific and C++03 changed nothing. It wasn't until C++11 that the true usefulness of the RAII idiom was realized.

>>61690870
The first language that's based on C++ but doesn't have C source level compatibility will probably end C++'s legacy

>>61690917
D tried that and failed. muh gc

>>61690926
Correct. And Rust is over complicated, more than C++ itself in some cases

>>61690907
>There are plenty of C++ abstractions that run slower than C for various reasons, but if you're smart you can write faster C++ than C.
Well, sepples has a bunch of gotchas that you need to be aware of. But still, there are a lot of things that allow for optimisations sepples can do, but C can't. Exceptions (where you write code for the optimal code path) and copy elisions, for example.

>C++98 was horrific
Yes

>and C++03 changed nothing.
It was marginally better, but yeah.

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>>61687838
Well, to be completely fair, I haven't chosen rust because of it's memory safety, I chose it because of other reasons. I have a codebase of roughly 2000 LOC in Rust with 21 dependencies. They expand to ~ 300 dependencies with sub-dependencies, meaning ~ 600000 LOC total. Show me how you manage that amount of libraries in C or C++ with a reproducible workflow (so you can do a "clean" setup on a different machine). Go to the owners website, download the code and never get updates?

Yes, there are package managers for C++, but do I really want to spend hours fiddling with Makefiles or actually get shit done. In terms of performance, they are sort-of on the same level. The unused functions get removed at compile time, so there is no bloat. Learn how to strip binaries.

Rust has Unicode, which was important for my project, a geospatial mapping analyzer. C++11 has it too, but it's half-assed. std::string / wstring codepoint handling is laughable.

C++ just adds features because "compatibility" to the point where I can't keep up. The only thing C++ has is libraries. Shitloads of libraries.

I am not saying that C++ is worse than Rust. They are different tools for different jobs.

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python

I honestly hope this dogfight never ends.

>>61691763
Nice try, that's no loli

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>>61691817
>try
we all know python is superior

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>>61690938
>Rust is over complicated,
You know, ... since I have started C++, coming from Rust I really don't understand why people like C++ so very much

Here, I was just trying to find a "isNumeric" function in the Goliath C++ stdlib but can't find wone. Apple has a vendor specific isNumber and that's it
C++ is nothing but unproductive pain in the ass, even for trivial things

>>61691834
Have you looked at Nim? Nim is the most powerful magical loli

>>61691856
one*

>>61689523
>Majority of C++ code is "C with classes", modern C++ is rarely ever used

Some of that is because there's years of legacy software that still has to be maintained. From the CppCon vids I've watched, they're trying to push modern C++ like crazy, I just have no idea how well its actually catching on in the industry.

>>61691941
As someone who has been working 3 different C++ developer jobs over the course of 6 years, I'd say that in my experience, people aim to use modern C++ as much as possible. Even code that was written 10 years ago (as in before C++11) attempted to follow the idomatic C++ guidelines of the time.

Only code that interfaced with C libraries, such as a module I worked on that used CURL, was written as "C with classes"

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>>61691834
>Dynamically typed languages
>Syntax layout enforcement

>>61691977
Python is significantly less harmful than most dynamically typed languages since it doesn't type juggle.

1 + "2" # error

As for signficant whitespace, at least it's up front about it. Javascript will fuck up your code if you put a newline in the wrong place and never tell you about it.
What I'm getting at is that modern scripting languages are cancer, but Python is slightly less cancerous.

>>61691974
>people aim to use Modern C++ as much as possible

Is that with projects without legacy code? I have no doubt that Contemporary C++ tried its best to follow it's 98 guidelines, but it's still far from modern C++. I'm curious, is the industry trying to rewrite its legacy code into modern C++ one step at a time?

>>61687876
Except OOP. Inb4 pajeet

>>61692034
You can do OOP in C

>>61692032
its actually the majority now. C++11 is already 6 years old and even before people were using Boos or TR a lot beause it improved C++ so much

>>61692063
And it looks horrifying.

>>61692090
But you can do it

>>61692063
You can but inheritance and polymorphism is a nightmare

>>61692096
You can do anything in any turing-complete language.

>>61692120
You can't allocate 1 bit in C

>>61687768
This. PHP is good if you use it correctly. That said, any language that uses white space delimiting can fuck right off.

>>61687856
Assembly fag here, please explain to me how rust does not use loops at the end of the day.

>>61692158
>Assembly fag
You must be very smart

>>61692131
When would you need to?

>>61692032
>Is that with projects without legacy code?
You'd have to go really far back to find "C with classes" as being idiomatic C++, to before C++03 in my opinion.

In my first job, I worked on a project that started back in 1995-1996-ish, but I doubt that a lot of the original code was still around. Obviously, there had been a bunch of different devs working on it throughout its time, so I encountered quite a lot of different programming styles.

>I have no doubt that Contemporary C++ tried its best to follow it's 98 guidelines, but it's still far from modern C++
Well, I consider anything after C++03 to be "modern" C++, and yes, it's far from C++11/14/17, but it's not like people were unaware of features that are now included in 11/14/17 back when C++03 was standardized. If you look at mailing lists, plenty of features that were included in C++11 was discussed for C++03.


>I'm curious, is the industry trying to rewrite its legacy code into modern C++ one step at a time?
Well, in my first job's case, which was the oldest system I worked on, me and the other back-end dev agreed that we'd only rewrite code when we actually touched those parts. So we did refactor parts that were old and wrote it in a more modern fashion. One example I have from this is the fact that in the older days, it was more common to throw a pointer to an exception and have the outermost exception handler manually delete it after handling it,

try
{
    throw new SomeException("message");
}
catch (SomeException* exception)
{
    Logger::log("Something happened", exception);
    delete exception;
}

but the more modern style of doing this would obviously be to let RAII clean stuff up by passing a reference instead

try
{
     throw SomeException("message");
}
catch (const SomeException& exception)
{
    Logger::log("Something happened", exception);
}

So, when interacting with legacy stuff, we had to handle both cases in a lot of places.

>>61692171
To prove you wrong

>>61692169
I'm doing low level stuff, mostly arm / kernel and assembly is sometimes critical, I ended up relying on assembly a lot on low-level platforms, otherwise i prefer c.

>>61692173
>>61692032


And also this: >>61692072

Boost and TR has had a bunch of features that ultimately wasn't included in C++03, but was later included in C++11. Boost is such commonly used, it should pretty much be considered a prototype of what's going to come in the next C++ standard.

>>61692072

>>61692181
I never claimed you couldn't

>>61692158
It does, in the end. It's just a bit simpler to write than a for or foreach loop.

>>61692271
>Writing for loops is complicated, we need abstractions and everyone who does not is a pajeet

>>61692359
Even a for loop is an abstraction. It's basically just syntactic sugar for conditional jumps.

>>61692359
Not him, but it's not the user who's writing the for loop, loops are vastly overrated, especially if you have lazy iterators

The rest of the job belongs to the compiler

>>61692372
of course for loops are abstractions, but the relation to assembly is inherently understandable just by reading the code. also you don't have to call functions -which in most cases (except the function called is inlined) will save you function calls, unnecessary stack-frames, etc.

>>61691317
>>61691856
Rust is an okay language for bringing web dev closer to what we think of as real programming, for all other uses it's laughable, too slow to do useful things

>>61692506
Ignore the other guy, I picked Rust only because it has some nice high level features like lazy iterators and iter tools, UFCS, and modules.

>>61692611
>modules
No, it doesn't

>>61692615
https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/first-edition/crates-and-modules.html

>>61692642
Calling them modules doesn't make them modules.

>>61692658
https://clang.llvm.org/docs/Modules.html

>>61692731
You don't know what modules are. Neither does Apple.

>>61692753
https://dlang.org/spec/module.html

>>61692761
Those still aren't modules.

>>61692776
https://labs.consol.de/development/2017/02/13/getting-started-with-java9-modules.html

>>61692805
These are also not modules.
Just learn what modules are. Stop linking to wrong examples.

>>61692820
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fsharp/language-reference/modules

>>61692823
You don't seem to understand why you are wrong.

>>61692856
http://blackboxframework.org/index.php?cID=why-program-in-component-pascal,en-us

https://ocaml.org/learn/tutorials/modules.html

>>61692882
Okay, I'll give you a hint: Modules can be generic.

>>61692906
>>61692905

>>61687732
Left is /bant/, right is /jp/.

Just give up. No one cares about what your special snowflake language thinks modules are

>>61692912
That's right. OCaml is a language with actual, real modules.

>>61692935
https://docs.python.org/2/tutorial/modules.html

>>61692935
so is common lisp

>>61692932
Rust shills can't tell the difference between modules and namespaces. It's embarrassing.

>>61692984
https://www.tutorialspoint.com/fortran/fortran_modules.htm

>>61692935
Does it have users that don't work for Jane Street?

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https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2017/05/05/cpp-modules-in-visual-studio-2017/

>>61687732
different languages for different uses. You shouldn't care about other people opinions.
Make your own.

>>61687768
See? I told you Java was good!
>meh
>>>/lgbt/

>>61687805
excellent taste.

>>61687732
anything is better than C++ tbqh

>>61689516
Thankfully programmers aren't as idiotic as you.

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>>61687805
>rust
rust should be contained like /pol/ on here

>>61689393
>its old and therefore bad.
isn't it way past your bedtime ?

>>61687732
No, C is outdated trash for neckbeard weebs that want to feel edgy.

C stands for KEK

>>61693058

export import M;

It's almost as if the PHP standards committee came up with this. Holy crap they're slowly but steadily destroying the language.

'I prefer to be 0.01% faster than to have an intuitive syntax and concept in programming' the thread

>>61700985
>C++
>intuitive syntax

>>61698343
Learn to read

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>>61687768

>>61687792
look at the number of bugs caused by buffer under and overflows. this is the danger of languages without automatic memory management and shit developers

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>>61689440
>>61689459
>>61689485
D has piss poor and inconsistent debugging options which is a shame because the syntax of D is rather nice. Until this is addressed, D won't be used for anything more than toy programs.

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>>61687732
Yes.

If C is so good why do game developers exclusively use C++?

>>61702597
cuz they aint shit

>>61687856
>shilling for a meme language
>calling others pajeet

>>61702248
Debuggers are for nu-male koders, real white aryan men do not require them

>>61702628
Fuck you and your shitty print statement debugging.

>>61702698
>t. Koder

>>61702707
>muh print statement debugging

once you use raii, smart pointers, containers, and constexpr you never go back

>>61687732
>Is it true that c is better than c++?
C and C++ have entirely different applications. Comparing them is pointless.