Why do phone manufacturers outright refuse to use x86 or x64?

Asus Zenfone 2

>>51454894
I've wondered this, as Intel are literally paying OEMs to put their Atom chips in devices

the operating system is the issue

>>51454894
>I just want the option of installing a full desktop environment.
Niche market. Enjoy using Win32 programs at 5".

>>51454989
I will, I used ARM Linux in a chroot environment on my galaxy S2 for a while. Worked beautifully as a pocket PC with a Bluetooth KB+M and HDMI adapter, but there was fuck-all for software. Once, I tried to run '98 in DOSbox.

>>51454894
power, apparently, or something like that.


im still whiny about MUH UMPC
fucking consumerist cunts

You don't need x86 on a phone. You run one app at a time, that's usually limited by memory bandwidth, networking, or the GPU, rarely the processor.

The only time processor speeds matter in a phone is running benchmarks. And ARM will compete with x86 in benchmarks because most benchmarks these days essentially just test cache performance, or hardware accelerated tasks. Pretty much every popular mobile CPU benchmark has almost zero relation to real world performance.

Most of the time the CPU on a phone is idle. When a task comes in it could take 1ms or complete or 10ms, it doesn't matter, if it takes 10 times longer but uses say 10% less power to perform that task, its worth it in the manufacture's eyes. ARM chips are usually more power efficient in this way, because they're simpler designs that are easier to optimize.

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Because x86 chips are less power efficient and more expensive.

However intel is gaining serious ground with their Atom chips. Pic related is a 2.4 GHz cherry trail Atom capable of around ~3,400 multi-core geekbench score. Its approximate max TDP is around 6 watts. In addition it features an iGPU with 16 execution units capable of up to 600 MHz.

The Zenfone 3 might use this chip.

>>51455239
The predator 8 already uses it.

ARM is superior and will replace x86 like it needs to be.

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>>51455490
RISC shill pls go

>>51455490
If it's so superior then why are companies starting to use atom chips on phones (ie $200 zenfone 2)?

>>51455490
lol

>>51455627
x86 shill, get out. there are 20 year exploits that haven't been fixed yet in x86 processors.

>>51454894
Because RISC and ARM is objectively superior to CISC and x86/64.

x86 only has the market share it does for backwards compatibility and legacy reasons.

If you were to restart from scratch, the market would be 95% ARM and 5% x86 worldwide.

>>51455645
>Zenfone 2
Could you run full Windows on it? The idea of a 5.5" Windows machine makes my dick diamonds.

>>51455236
The problem an x86 derived chipset solves is software, not efficiency.


>nvidia will never solve the mobile gaming problem by cutting down and downclocking a 206 core
>Intel will never offer a high-end quad core Atom to pair with it
>the drivers will never not be janky and broken as they always are
>you will never have a phone architecturally identical to a PC
There's plenty of shit that would run fine on hardware like that. Too bad we'll never see it. Horrible, broken OpenGL forever.

>>51455645
To be able to support a platform that developers have been developing on for over 2 decades. To bridge the PC (legacy) and mobile disconnect.

Even though x86 is obsolete, this is a major economic pull.

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>>51455715
>x86 is obsolete

>>51455715
I think its safe to say we're talking about x64 when discussing x86 derived phone chips.

>>51455702
Yup, literally nothing stopping you from doing that since the chip is x86. Though I think you can only run win 7 on a VM on the zenfone 2.

http://forum.xda-developers.com/zenfone2/general/zf2-running-windows-7-using-kvm-t3153299

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>>51455715
You're obsolete senpai.

>>51455773
Thanks, that is horribly tempting.

>>51455755
Are non-64 x86 chips even made anymore?

>>51455755
>>51455834

There is no "x86_64."

What you are referring to is called AMD64 because AMD invented it.

People call it "x86_64" or just x64 but that is incorrect.

>>51455834
There are companies which still produce 8bit x86 compatible cpus

>>51456161
People call it x86_64 since that's intels implementation of AMD64.

>>51456161
AMD invented 64-bit CPUs?! 0_o

I thought all they were good for was making space heaters (fx-9590)? wow

>>51456205

Before recently AMD was always better than intel. Intel was just brand name, their processors were slower and ran hotter. Starting with nahalem is when intel started to actually compete.

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>>51456205
lol, you don't remember the P4 housefires?

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>>51454894
because no one gives a fuck about your nerdic needs. mainstream wants 5' octacore arm chip and they will get it.

You can install full desktop enviroment on most android devices, it's just not suited for task and uncomfortable. Best i had in terms of usage comfort was i3 on droid 3, but i had fucked up colors there because d3 gpu driver was retarded.

Of course i understand you - it's a fun gimmick to fool around. Back then when pdas were overally pretty niche, you could buy HTC Shift with x86 chip and windows vista, but now best you can do is fooling around with running chrooted enviroments in android, sometimes running real linux kernel if device is popular and got one from xda-dev.

>>51456362
>because no one gives a fuck about your nerdic needs. mainstream wants 5' octacore arm chip and they will get it.
Mainstream wants more battery life, not more 810 housefires.

>You can install full desktop enviroment on most android devices, it's just not suited for task and uncomfortable. Best i had in terms of usage comfort was i3 on droid 3, but i had fucked up colors there because d3 gpu driver was retarded.
*crippled desktop enviornment

>Of course i understand you - it's a fun gimmick to fool around. Back then when pdas were overally pretty niche, you could buy HTC Shift with x86 chip and windows vista, but now best you can do is fooling around with running chrooted enviroments in android, sometimes running real linux kernel if device is popular and got one from xda-dev.
Which is why we need more x86 phones.

>>51456417
>Which is why we need more x86 phones.
Except that no one (only a niche) really cares about using Desktop applications on a phone. How do you even really work with this without looking like a retard?

>>51456417
what's so crippled about chrooted linux? where exactly is it lacking as 'desktop enviroment'?

>more battery life
and yet mainstream will buy new samsung galaxy s7 not because of battery life, but because numbers near "CPU: " or "resolution: " phrase in market plamphet is higher than number in their current smartphone specs.

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>>51454894
Because x86 and x64 are a fucking wasteful cancerous instruction set that are huge fucking power hogs.

Get out, Intel shill.

>>51455709
You literally know nothing about technology.

>>51456464
>Except that no one (only a niche) really cares about using Desktop applications on a phone. How do you even really work with this without looking like a retard?

>make 5" x86 phone with unlocked bootloader
>include precision stylus with left/right click mouse buttons
>allow phone to boot into Android or Windows 7
>include slide out physical keyboard
>????
>profit

The world of UMPC has been left in the dark for too long.

>>51456306
Not everyone is old enough to remember the days of Intel being BTFOd every which way.

Power consumption.
Power/watt.
/thread

>>51456490
>Because x86 and x64 are a fucking wasteful cancerous instruction set that are huge fucking power hogs.
>what is cherrytrail

>>51456574
>Implying the successor to cherrytrail won't shit all over ARM in terms of power efficiency.

>>51456490
This.

The only people who unironically want to see more x86 are retards who know literally nothing about the low level.

x86 is an obsolete artifact from the 1980s that is literally so shit that modern x86 CPUs actually are specialized RISC CPUs that wrap a x86/64 hardware emulation, because it is literally more efficient to emulate the shitty instruction set than it is to actually use it.

But this board has no interest in the low level. They learn their cutesy C and think they are gods over their computer because they know some HL/ASM and did some memory management. They don't know that ARM can accomplish a task in literally a quarter of the cycles x86 can, but Intel has literally jewed the market so hard that IBM clones are only x86 and will remain that way into the forseeable future. This means CPU manufacturers are literally running out of ways to make x86/64 faster and soon we are going to hit a ceiling of how fast this architecture can really get.

Meanwhile, brand new architectures are coming out of experimental labs that can do 4.5 million operations per second on a 10 ring system. For comparison, x86 can only do that many operations/second on ring 0 only systems like TempleOS.

x86 is a fucking meme perpetuated by retards who know literally nothing about technology and have no interest in it. It's for the "LOL assembly is so useless we have C!!!" millenial crowd. Reminder that literally the ONLY reason it's popular is because Intel purposefully leaked the documentation making it super easy to develop for, resulting in it getting grandfathered in each new development cycle.

>>51456596
It would have to be faster than a core m then

>implying goldmont would be shit/canceled

>>51456599
How much did they pay you to shill ARM?

God, ARM must be pretty fucking desperate.

>>51456543
First of all we would need 64GB of storage to store both OSs. Second I would recommend Windows 8.1/10 since 7 isn't that nice for mobile devices. Third the need for a high precision stylus makes usage pretty awkward.

A physical keyboard would be nice, but today it's not really popular (for whatever reason). Anyway a keyboard would make the phone quite a bit more clunky, and to cope with the higher battery usage Windows produces than Android a bigger battery would be needed, making the device even more clunky.


Now the question is: How would buy this device? It would be kinda expensive to build and there really isn't a market for Windows on phones, so...?

>>51454894
>I just want the option of installing a full desktop environment
>on a phone

holy fucking shit you are such a fucking autistic faggot. god I hate this fucking board

>>51456599
I'll bite. If ARM is so "1337" then why is useful software like sony vegas, adobe illustrator, handbrake written for x86 CPUs? Why would they write software for inferior CPUs if good old ARM is there to save the day?

>>51456690
>then why is useful software like sony vegas, adobe illustrator, handbrake written for x86 CPUs?
>they write software for the cpu :^)

>>51456667
>First of all we would need 64GB of storage to store both OSs. Second I would recommend Windows 8.1/10 since 7 isn't that nice for mobile devices. Third the need for a high precision stylus makes usage pretty awkward.
It would serve as a mouse, it would be required for smooth yet compact operation.

>A physical keyboard would be nice, but today it's not really popular (for whatever reason). Anyway a keyboard would make the phone quite a bit more clunky, and to cope with the higher battery usage Windows produces than Android a bigger battery would be needed, making the device even more clunky.
x86 CPUs have become very power efficient recently (cherrytrail), I wouldn't be surprised if Intel hacked a decent 1 watt x86 CPU together. The keyboard could be scrapped in favor for a bluetooth keyboard if a physical one made the phone that clunky.

>Now the question is: How would buy this device? It would be kinda expensive to build and there really isn't a market for Windows on phones, so...?
Lenovo already built the zenfone 2. When they realize people would pay good money to have the features of a laptop (windows 7/8.1) on a phone then they could hack together a 1440p phone with a 2-4 TDP x86 CPU and sell it for $500+. I would be the first to get it.

>>51456755
You know what I meant you little shit.

>>51456599
>using "literally" 8 times

>>51456166
>>51456161
x86-64 is the generic name. AMD calls it AMD64, Intel calls it EM64T or Intel 64. AMD64 and x86-64 are the most correct names. There's also the stupid x64 term which Microsoft created because of Itanium.

>>51456690
>handbrake
Works perfectly on ARM
http://archlinuxarm.org/packages?page=68

The others aren't because wintel has a monopoly on the platforms they're useful on (the desktop).

>>51456767
>it would be required for smooth yet compact operation.
It would be required since touch is unusable at that size, however a mandory stylus isn't really compact.

>x86 CPUs have become very power efficient recently (cherrytrail)
I think the OS is more of a problem than the CPU itself in regards to power usage, since Win32 apps aren't tailored for efficient power usage. The CPU should be fine, considering there are x86 Android phones out there.

>The keyboard could be scrapped in favor for a bluetooth keyboard if a physical one made the phone that clunky.
Now this would kill the whole mobility. Just get a tablet in this case.

>Lenovo already built the zenfone 2.
It runs Android though. Hardware is not necessarily the problem (though it may get expensive), but rather usability and the potential market.

>1440p phone with a 2-4 TDP x86 CPU and sell it for $500+
Aggressive pricing that would not really match up with the needed hardware, software licensing fees (for OEM Windows), R&D, dual OS development and whatsoever.

>I would be the first to get it.
Just get a tablet, seriously. It's somewhat usable without an external keyboard and mouse, it's mobile and it's not too expensive.

>>51456878
How crippled does it run?

>>51454894
RETARDx86

>>51457050
>Implying it's better than autismARM

>>51456908
>Just get a tablet, seriously. It's somewhat usable without an external keyboard and mouse, it's mobile and it's not too expensive.
I would want to have one of the first reliable UMPCs just for shits and giggles. It could potentially even replace my laptop if the CPU were powerful enough.

>>51455236
This

>>51457126
>I would want to have one of the first reliable UMPCs just for shits and giggles
And that's the problem: Who's gonna device and develop such a device for shit and giggles? Only a limited amount would be an option, but then the device would be too expensive.

>>51454894
At this moment in time we just don't need it.maybe in the future when apps require better processors

>>51454894

because arm chips can be designed with specialized functions in mind for various sensors like accelerometers.

x86 is great for general computing

>>51456690
Why do most singers compose shitty EDM pop nigger songs when classical music exists?

Are you fucking retarded? It's because ARM processors weren't mature enough when those programs were first being developed. That's a braindead argument you're using there.