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I need your honest opinion: what's the best programming

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I need your honest opinion: what's the best programming language for someone who has no experience with programming to start with? Assume a strong tech foundation ( /g/ level) and a good grip on maths.
>>
Haskell.
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C. Ignore everyone else, C is the beginner language, if you can't do C you're not going to be a good programmer.

Especially avoid outsider/"different" shit like Python because it'll fuck you up with its fucked up structures and style which will make you suck at other languages.

C or GTFO.
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>>44825889
assembly
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Pick anything and stick with it. Avoid weird shit like Lisp or Haskell.
>>
C# or Java if you want the most use out of the least knowledge.
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Assembly, C or Lisp
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>>44825889
Depends on what you want to do and how fast you want to do them. C will teach you the basics of programming but it will be hard and take time. Python is faster to learn and will make you do scripting tasks in no time.
>>
C if you have the diligence to get right into the real stuff
Python if you want to do casual programming
>>
avoid outdated shit like C and go with more modern and userfriendly languages like Swift, Go or Python
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>>44825969
>>44825978
>>44825919
>>44825948
How long does it take to learn C to progress on to C++, C#, Java, etc?
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>>44825897
I can code in Haskell and I can say this is bad advice. Don't start with Haskell, Javascript, Perl or any of the esoteric languages.

C or Lisp is a reasonable start.
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Can you make games in C? They're obviously not all I want to make, but I keep sort of going back to wanting to make a game because there's nothing like what I want to play so I want to make my own.
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>>44825889

C
>>
basic
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>>44825994
Yes. Though, most OpenGL bindings(which I presume you'll be working with) are for C++, which is more reasonable for matrix and vector math you'll have to deal with in 3D graphics.
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>>44825994
get out
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>>44825994
pretty much any game released by bigger studios are written partly if not completely in C/C++.
C is the go-to language for videogames
>>
JavaScript

Not even kidding, it's something you deal with everyday, it's approachable as fuck, versatile and low-cost of entry into the field
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>>44826030
Enjoy your lack of type safety.
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>>44825919
>>44825939
>>44825948
>>44825960
>>44825969
>>44825992
>>44825996
>>44826023
kek at all these faggots recommending *C* to a goddamn beginner
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>>44826050
it's for someone who has never programmed before

i don't think it'll be a concern of his

he can move on to other languages with the basics and general gist of programming with him along with type safety
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>>44825992
Do you even know what an esoteric language is?
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>>44826051
Can you read.
>>44825939
Said c# not C you idiot.
>>
Javascript is pretty babby tier. You don't have to download a compiler/interpreter and making a UI with it is pretty easy.

I'd say it would be the best language to start with assuming you didn't actually want to learn about computer science or how computers work.
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>>44826080
but you can get your feet wet without having to commit so much

again easy to get into

C for beginners. L M A O
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>>44826080
JavaScript or Python. A lot of great learning materials in both and you'll be able to to do interesting things fairly quickly. Scheme is also a good choice if you want to go through SICP and HtDP.

Learn a lower level language later on when you have the basics down.
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>>44825987
A few weeks to a few months depending on your ability and dedication. The things you should make sure to know are pointer arithmetic and memory management. Then move to C++ to learn OOP.
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>>44825889
What you want, OP, is a language that will encourage good coding style and habits. So ideally a strongly typed language with semantically important whitespace that allows you to write in several different paradigms. In other words, Haskell.
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>>44825889
Haskell would be one of the closest matches for mathematical reasoning... if you are on an University level with that.

Most people will probably start with Python, Java, C++ or something due to the documentation and huge user base and plenty of courses being offered all over the place.

But let me say with some confidence that you could start with almost any programming language that a decent number of people actually use. It's not like you can't learn it just because you don't have 100 books but only 2 and online docs... the other people did, too.
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>>44826140
>C as a beginner language
>C++ for learning OOP
Did you brain your damage, anon?
>>
Thanks for the input guys, I think I'll go with C. I enjoy a challenge. I assume I'll need an IDE and a compiler to start coding, what do you guys recommend?
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>>44826174
> semantically important whitespace
> good coding style and habits
Seems very, very debatable to me.

> strongly typed language
I agree with that one. Pretending types don't exist is silly. Might as well have your compiler tell you that it's nonsense to look at a number or color or letter as a boolean value of true or false...
>>
Learn Haskell so that you can dedicate your life to developing xmonad configs, recursive fibonacci functions that have space leaks, and quadratic quicksort.

Alternatively, learn a language that people actually use for real applications.
>>
Python is the best language for a beginnner to learn. Here's why

1) High level language, so you don't have to worry about pointers and other low level shit that is not relevant to a beginner.

2) You can create interesting programs very fast

3) Huge standard library which can do pretty much anything you could ever want

4) Very clean and clear syntax, so instead of worrying about the syntax you can just focus on the logic of your code

5) because it is white-space delimited it will give you good coding habits because if you migrate to another language you will be familiar with good indentation and code-readability

6) Python is consistently ranked top 10 within programming popularity, it is especially prevalent in data-science fields and you said in your OP that you're good with math. It's also popular for server side web development, although it is used for all kinds of applications.

7) Coding in python is fun
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>>44826219
If you must go with C... clang, probably.

It's a very nice verbose compiler that is pretty specific about where you made an error, and why.

>>44826239
Haskell is used in real life applications, but if you prefer an even bigger and financially wealthy / famous corporate user base to get hired by, try Scala.

You can even use a fairly Haskell-like standard library in that one if you want.
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>>44826239
It sounds like you don't know how to write Haskell at all.
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>>44826219
code::blocks is a decent IDE.
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>>44826231
>very, very debatable
The amount of shitty code with unreadable indentation I've seen... Just trying to avoid that possible outcome.

I also forgot to mention that OP also wants a language that doesn't have a ton of gotchas and segfaults everywhere. So definitely not C.
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>>44825889
Java, then C
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OP here, convince me that C isn't the best language to learn before I start downloading stuff I don't need. Thanks for all your help /g/entlemen.
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>>44826319
Just fucking learn Python.
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>>44826260
>python best language for a beginner
>pointers and other low level shit that is not relevant

okay, so clearly this guy has no idea what he is talking about.

if you are serious about programming, you should learn C.
learning a super high level language such as python is like handicapping yourself.
I see it every fucking day, people just have no idea how to actually program, because they were taught some BS scripting language, such as python, and now can't grasp real programming concepts.
real programming concepts, that are always relevant, like pointers.

>tl;dr
if you want to join the herd of incompetent handicapped "programmers", learn python.
if you actually want to learn how to program, learn C.
>>
python if you don't want to understand how things work, but you want to make things.
C if you don't want to make things immediately, but you want a good understanding of what a computer is doing.
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>>44826353
Real programming concepts are things like abstraction, typing, algorithms and analyzing runtime, not running through gdb step by step to figure out where your shit failed and caused a segfault.
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>>44826353
PS

the worst thing you can do is learn an OOP language first.
speaking of handicaps, these languages were literally designed for people who have to make analogies to real world concepts, such as objects in order to understand programming.
OOP is for people who can't handle programming. do NOT learn this first, or you will always be trying to relate everything back to objects and other shitty analogies.
it is like learning a foreign language by always translating it back into your first language
rather than actually learning to think in the new language
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>>44826319
Its hard and there's a lot to learn before you're doing anything cool. C development also blows if you're on windows.

Python is super easy to pick up and what you write should run on any machine that has python installed on it.

Learn C tho
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>>44826415
Most retarded post in this thread.
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>>44826412
>CS sophomore pls go
your opinion is valid when you have work experience.
the real world is nothing like your intro level uni classes
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>>44826353
>7) Coding in python is fun
yeah no
it was the most annoying language I've ever used
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>>44826319
Do you enjoy the thought of writing a lot of code that does a seemingly simple task only to spend days debugging it? Because that's what you're going to get with C. It should never be considered a beginner language except under expert supervision. It's a punishing, excessively wordy thing that will leave it as late as possible to tell you when you're doing something stupid, if it does tell you at all. IE the precise opposite of a beginner language.
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>>44826291
> The amount of shitty code with unreadable indentation I've seen... Just trying to avoid that possible outcome.
Not such a huge problem, in my opinion. Every decent programming editor and IDE can reformat code in the languages it supports for you.

> I also forgot to mention that OP also wants a language that doesn't have a ton of gotchas and segfaults everywhere. So definitely not C.
Well, you can compensate with experience, but it is really not the most clever/logically designed language and/or standard library, yep...
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>>44826353

This is absolutely incorrect and nitpicked. I said pointers aren't relevant to a BEGINNER and I stand by that statement. Learning programming is very hard by itself, there's nothing stopping anyone from learning about all of that AFTER you've got the basics down. The basics are difficult in and of themselves. If you start with C you will be extremely frusturated and your progress will be slow which will discourage you even further. Since C is compiled it takes much more setup and time to test your code, which means you're not getting instant feedback on what you're doing wrong.

Python is interpreted and even further has applications like Ipython where you can instantly test and debug your code and jump to explanations of what each and every function of every library does. Instant feedback on what you did wrong plus a great debugger, not to mention you'll actually be able to create shit and that's the number one thing that will keep you coding longer.

Learn C after python. I mean like 6 months after working in python/javascript, you seriously do not need to know it right away.
>>
I strongly feel functional programming is one of the best places to start, especially if you have a knowledge math it should feel fairly natural to you and you will get a very good understanding of control flow and the difference between recursion and iteration. I started with scheme and SICP and I feel I am a stronger programmer for it.

That being said, I think there is something to be said for starting with a low level imperative language like C. It will be very hard, but you will not only learn how to program but also how computers actually work.

If you don't give a shit about the details and want to start programming, a high level general purpose language like python is a good place to start.

The only thing I would recommend against is doing too much object oriented work when you first start out. It's popular and a marketable skill to know, but it will teach you habits. People very commonly apply object oriented programming to problems it is inappropriate for.

>>44826219
I also wouldn't recommend starting with an IDE. I would use a text editor so you don't need to rely on an IDE to tell you how to do things. Your choice though.

You probably already have GCC for your compilers, provided you aren't working in windows.
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>>44826455
>compensate with experience
Of course. The problem being that OP specifically pointed out that he has none of that.
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>>44826460
what the fuck are you talking about with not getting instant feedback?
just compile your god damn program and test it, is 15 seconds not instant enough for you?
honestly, the real world doesnt operate in a super special debugger that holds your hand and writes your code for you.

>>44826448
anyone having this much trouble with a language like C is EXACTLY what I was talking about here >>44826415 and here >>44826353

clearly, they have already set themselves in a poor way thinking and will always be held back by this.
the only people who have such a hard struggle with programming are the people who learned a hand holding, high level OOP language.

>>44826448
am I wrong? what was your first language?
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>>44826461
this guy gets it
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>>44826541
I started off writing proofs in Agda.
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It depends on what you're interested in doing. If you wanna start from a level closer to machine code, do C. High level langs abstracts what you can do in a low level lsng but at the cost of efficiency. If speed matters to you, you certainly need C/C++.Not to say high level langs are entirely slow, memory is accessible these days seeing as phones come with at least 2Gbs.
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>>44826461
> People very commonly apply object oriented programming to problems it is inappropriate for.
Eh? OOP is suitable for essentially anything.

It's just a method of structuring code into "things" that can be instantiated rather than having it all as functions.

If you wrote all pure functions, OOP would be unnecessary, but if you don't, it gives you at least some degree of modularity and separation of concerns. Might as well group those up that only work together (and not alone), and instantiate them one or more times as needed...
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>>44826461
Thank you very much. I hear a lot about vim/emacs on /g/ but haven't really looked into either of them; right now I'm running a compiled version of Lime. Is it worth looking into vim/emacs?
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>>44826606
vim is pretty sweet, but a big learning curve
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>>44826415
>Not knowing that data structures are just abstract algebraic objects
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>>44826637
>implying
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>>44825889
python --> C --> [now you have a foundation; you're next choice should depend on what you want to do.]
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>>44826541
>what was your first language?
BASIC, when I was about 8-9 years old. Now I'm post-university and have done extensive programming in C, C++, Java, Haskell, Prolog, Moonscript, have a passing familiarity with Scheme, Python, Lua, Javascript, and am intending on learning Ada. Where is your god now?

I don't think you understand OOP, by the way. The encapsulation of data and the functions that are allowed to work on it is a beautiful thing, and it tends to be a feature of well written code even outside of traditional OOP languages.
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>>44826681
>All those useless languages.

Nigger, learn some HTML.
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>>44826606
>>44826623

I used nano for yeearrrss (and hardly ever programmed, just used Linux 'casually'). I finally switched to vim when I decided I should learn a fucking language after years of procrastination (I chose C btw).

If you want to start vim, add 'enable syntax' into ~/.vimrc (the configuration file in your home directory on Linux) and just go with it. 'i' for inserting text, ESC for moving the cursor around -- starting vim and programming at the same time has been a pretty enjoyably experience; I figure I'll pick up the daunting tall-order stuff as I advance in learning how to utilize languages/structure.
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>>44826597
That's true, all it is is just a way of organizing code. Sometimes it's just more intuitive not having to deal with this layer of abstraction. You can design modular code without it, and the overhead associated with it can be undesirable.

I guess what I mean is that with OOP its possible to take a simple task and make it obscure. I'm pretty sure this philosophy is the whole reason languages like clojure exist.

>>44826606
Vim and emacs are both great, text editors are purely a matter of personal preference.
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>>44826763
> You can design modular code without it
You can. But why don't you have the compiler guarantee for you that you have the expected things in place, and nothing missing from the specified grouping of code and variables?

People have failed to do that right for decades, which is why OOP happened as an industry-wide doctrine.

> and the overhead associated with it can be undesirable.
It depends on how heavyweight your OOP is, and what you do.

In most settings, people don't care about using the heavyweight (in terms of RAM or even processing power) options to OOP anymore. If it saves programmer or sysadmin time, they enable it all. Memory management, fancy VM graphs and accounting, networked reporting to a central location, log files all over the place, and so on...

Moore's conjecture surely did its work there. Programmer & sysadmin wages don't follow it, but hardware did.
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>>44826051
Well, C will "open his mind" and prepare him for other things, seriously, if you start with C, you are going to be able to move to another languages faster and better

>explain to a python fag what are switches
>>
C is a good beginner language... it was my first language. My second one was x86 asm. They're really not that difficult...
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>>44827572
>if you start with C, you are going to be able to move to another languages faster and better
lel, no

If you want to be able to move on to other languages better and faster, you study comp sci theory, particularly algorithms and programming paradigms. You don't jump into the deep end and learn a shitty expert-level language from the 70s. (BTW I'm not one of those idiots recommending python either.)
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>>44825889
Start with C. C# is also an excellent beginner language - but C is a great stepping stone and kind of like a right of passage by anyone who considers themselves a decent coder.

After you do shit in C, feel free to learn other languages - it will be really easy after you learn C

Projects to Try:

* Fizzbuzz [Learn Modulus sign - and how to print words to the screen]
* "draw" a curve! - Parabolic, Quadratic, Exponential, Linear - w/o graphics you can tell it to give you points to make a line (like the screen will show "x=1, y=0" and you can plot it on paper to confirm) [Learn about for statements]
* Write some functions that do math stuff that you're good at (You could write adding, you could find a determinate of a 2x2 - i don't care) [ Learn how to make functions so the function = the answer]
* Read a Header of a well-documented format (Doom WAD is a good one) [ Learn File I/O, Data Structures, and How your system works with binary data and memory]
* Write a Basic Encryption where a string encrypts text that's decrypted with a single letter[Learn about Exclusive Or commands as well as sizeof()]

Theres also the occasional - Projects posts that people post on here that are fun to learn and do.
For Practice in other langauges - convert your C code to a language of choice!
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>>44827787
>right of passage
This is code for "stupid thing I made the mistake of doing and want you to do too so I don't feel so bad about it". For other examples, see linuxfags thoughts on
rm -rf . /
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>>44825889
A good grip on maths don't mean shit. The only thing you'll use math for is to implement it into your algorithm.

I don't know how good of a beginner language it is but I started with Python.
>>
C is great as a first language because it forces you to learn a bit about how the computer works at the same time (memory layout, what kind of operations are cheap and expensive on the low level, etc.).

If you start with python, you don't get any of that. Everything just werks, and you won't have the same intuition when you start optimising your code.
>>
>strong tech foundation
>/g/
yea, nah.
>>
>>44827077
I'm not saying OOP isn't a safe and reliable approach to coding, there is good reason it's an industry standard. I'm just saying it isn't as perfectly suited to all tasks as people make it out to be.

One example from clojure website: concurrency gets much easier without mutable objects.
>>
>>44827881
>when you start optimising your code.

Pfft, optimization is the compiler's job.
>>
Start with an imperative procedural language, like BASIC, then depending on how much commitment you put into learning you may move to C/Assembly.
Stay away from Python though, not because it's a bad language, but its syntax is unconventional.

>>44826209
You gotta have brain damage if you can't learn a simple language like C, the most complex thing is the concept of pointer, it's all downhill after you master it.
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>>44827852
>A good grip on maths don't mean shit.
fucking lol. op get off this board immediately. this is no place for serious inquiries.
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>>44827922
nice another trip to filter
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>>44827926
>it's syntax is unconventional
not if it's not oop
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>>44827935
It's true. Tell me how it's not.
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>All of these people claiming that pointers and memory management are fundamental concepts to programming.
Fuck off.
Programming is about defining and managing procedures and data. Pointers and crap is just one way of doing that, they aren't actually any more fundamental to computers than classes in Python .
>>
>>44827926
It's not learning the syntax of C that's the issue. It's doing anything more complex than fizzbuzz in it, as someone with little experience, without ending up with an unreadable, unmaintainable buggy mess of shit.
>>
>>44827954

Woah buddy, don't get all upset with me now.
>>
>>44827881
This.
I work as a programmer, and it is really obvious after working with someone for a few weeks whether they have been exposed to an unsanboxed/non-vm language with direct memory access (i.e C/C++, but also Lisp and assembly).
Those that haven't will generally understand objects in a fairly primitive way, and be bad at reckoning optimization. I've seen programmers like this instantiate new objects on every iteration of a loop to avoid a comparison between primitives, for instance.
Someone who has learnt lower level languages is likely to understand the likelihood of those primitives being in the cache, the low cost of comparison operations and the high cost of instantiation.

Simply put, they will understand simple data structures far better (trees, lists etc.) and when and why to use them.

I work in C#, and would recommend it to a beginner, but at some stage, if you want to to gain intuition in to how to write optimized code, both for speed and readability (simple data structures are almost always preferable for both), you will have to learn C or a similar language at some point. Or bore yourself to death learning theory with no practice.
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>>44825889
Python. It allows you to do more with fewer lines of code. It allows you to accomplish more with less knowledge, in less time. The language's motto is "batteries included"
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>>44825889
Do you really even need to learn to code, or are you some hipster that wants to spit a few lines of jargon at the next coffee place to some washed up art student
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>>44828095
>Someone who has learnt lower level languages is likely to understand the likelihood of those primitives being in the cache, the low cost of comparison operations and the high cost of instantiation.
That's true, but you don't actually need to learn everything there is to know about computers on the first day.

Leaning low-level stuff is important, but the very first thing a new programmer needs to know is HOW TO PROGRAM: how to think about breaking down tasks and carefully defining requirements.
Python and similar languages make for a good "first language" because they start with just the essentials - how to write programs - and leave details about implementation in the background. Once a program is comfortable with building programs, then they can go off and learn about pointers and memory efficiency and so on.
>>
I think Python is good if you want to learn the theory since it's such an easy language to pick up. You can practice and understand techniques and the conceptual stuff more. Learn the details and intricacies later with C, Java etc.
>>
>python
>all these idiots recommending a dynamically typed language for a beginner
>>
Lua is fun.
>>
http://strawpoll.me/2840317

GO
>>
>>44828208
>">"
Do you have a point?
>>
>>44825897
ARM ASM
>>
>>44828237
Of course. I was trying to imply that a beginner should be learning a strong, statically typed language. That way the compiler will bitchslap him with an informative error message if he makes a mistake instead of getting weird runtime behaviour. Thus, good habits will be enforced.
>>
Ada for these reasons: >>44826174
>>
>>44828174
I'm the dude your responding to, and I absolutely agree with you there.
That's why I said I would recommend C# to a beginner.
Python is also alright (it was one of the first languages I learnt), and would serve a beginner well, but if the intention of OP is to move on to other languages, it has a few pitfalls.
Typing is something that I think even beginners should learn ASAP. Loose, dynamic typing, while initially seeming easier, is something that can really confuse beginners at times.
Personally, I'm not a fan of dynamic types, and while C# has them (via the dynamic keyword and some of the reflection fuckery), it is far harder to unintentionally cast.

Obviously syntax is a tiny thing in terms of moving between languages once you know how to program, but for a rank amateur who will likely be using it as a stepping stone, chances are when they transition, it will still be an issue.

C# is nice since the syntax for classes looks very close to the other major OOP languages, and LINQ extensions add a lot of what I love about python to it.

OP also mentioned that he wanted to maek gaym as well.
It's basically irrelevant to discuss the merits of the two in that regard, since OP will be good enough to move between languages fluidly once he's good enough to make a game of any caliber.
That being said, I'd say MonoGame is more mature and widely used than anything python has to offer.
>>
C is definitely not for beginner! If you want be lost real quick then go ahead and try to learn C. If you want to get started i would start with HTML. HTML is the truly beginner language.
>>
>>44828324
An Ada is fine too. Should satisfy all the Cfags around here.
>>
Python
C++
Java
literally anything /g/ bashes is a good place to start, somewhat ironically i suppose
>>
>>44828277
I can sorta see you're point, but I'm not sure it's a big deal.
I think most of the appeal of strong-typing is in very large codebases where it's hard for humans to understand the code.
I started out programming in Python, and my experience with it has been that it's a very hard language to write buggy code in, at least for one-man sized programs.

>>44828346
>That's why I said I would recommend C# to a beginner.
Allright. My opinion on C# is pretty strongly coloured by it's association with MS, so I don't really have an opinion on the language itself.

>but if the intention of OP is to move on to other languages, it has a few pitfalls.
Why do you think that?
I started out with Python, and while it's still probably my most used language (it's what I get paid for) I haven't experienced and real issues picking up other languages (mainly Java and Rust).

>OP also mentioned that he wanted to maek gaym as well.
I missed that.
While Python has some pretty good game libraries (PySFML is very nice) packaging Python games to be portable is currently a pretty painful.

>That being said, I'd say MonoGame is more mature and widely used than anything python has to offer.
Probably, yeah.

>>44828324
>>44828435
>Ada
No.

>>44828447
>Python
Yes.
>Java
Maybe.
>C++
No.
>>
pike or tcl are good to start with
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>>44825994
look up corange
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>>44827572
C is a great way to make him rage quit before starting to like coding. Faggot.
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>>44828471
>Why do you think that?
For much the same reason I argued against python. Weak dynamic vs strong static typing. He mentioned it in the next line down.
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>>44826660
This is the correct recommendation. I would also through a fun language like visual basic
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>>44828471
What's wrong with ada?
>>
>>44828747
There is basically no documentation for Ada as a first language.
>>
>>44828789
Fair enough. There's a few decent books out there but for a completely free language, there's surprisingly little good beginner's materials out there. It's a great language otherwise imo. So much of it is great for learners.
>>
>>44828789
>>44828927
I guess my to-do list just got a little bit longer.
>>
>>44828927
What is Ada used for? Can it into webdev?
>>
>>44828955
Ada is a system/embedded/application language. Basically anything you'd want to use C/C++ for, Ada can do better. Why it isn't more commonly used remains a bit of a mystery, aside from it being developed by the US DoD.
>>
>>44829001
Should I learn this over C? I mean I know basic C (loops, vars pointers) but is Ada worth it?
>>
>>44829013
I'm not quite in a position to comment since I'm just starting to learn it myself. By all accounts Ada results in much more reliable, less error-prone code. It can also be used to call and be called from C/C++ if I remember right. The main downside is that Ada jobs are a lot more scarce than C/C++ jobs.
>>
Anything other than C# or Java is considered harmful
>>
>>44825889
Common Lisp
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