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Do you guys eat meat why/why not? Let's get some discusion

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Do you guys eat meat
why/why not?
Let's get some discusion going, we can all learn from it.
>>
I guess i can start

I personally don't eat meat or eggs for environmental and ethical reasons. I take a vitamin B pill with 7 different B-vitamins to compensate for the vitamins i would have gotten from the meat.I feel a lot better with almost no saturated fats in my system :)

Went vegetarian a few months ago, and i reccomend it greatly
>>
>>34427323
I just like how it taste

And i LOVE pork
>>
>>34427361
But pork is Haram
You will never go to paradise if you eat it
Allah Akbar tbh
>>
For dem macros.

Also I only eat freerange homegrown meat and veggies cuz i live in a rural area and its easier to get and allround better than packaged
>>
>>34427554
Cottage cheese has better macros and doesn't have murder as a key ingredient tbh
>>
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>>34427577
Just rape and kidnapping
>>
>>34427360
>ethical reasons
not gonna make it
>>
>>34427610
I can't afford to be vegan, i'm a student living off of tuition :(
>>
>>34427634
I will not claim to be an expert but could u not just eat beans I mean they are cheep as fuck and a good souce of protein
>>
>>34427577
I cant get any, i can only get feta and greek yogurt but thats way to expensive
>>
>>34427666
I eat a shit ton of beans
Only milk product i consume is cottage cheese, about 200 grams a day
>>
>>34427634
So don't be mad about us picking murder if you can't stop raping :^)
>>
>>34427634
Cool story breh. Meat is way more expensive than beans and rice.
>>
>>34427323

Last time I checked shitposting wasn't vegan.
>>
Tell me why not without involving the animal's life
>>
>>34427323
>Do you guys eat meat

yes

>why/why not?

because it tastes good, has good macros, provides variety in diet, and because animals don't have any rights.
>>
I eat meat because I enjoy meat, and I enjoy cooking with meat.

>>34427692
Not really. I can make homemade teryaki chicken for probably less then $2 (including rice) Its super cheap and satisfying.

Honestly, I really don't approve of the conditions livestock is kept in. I try my best to pay more for product that is proven to treat their animals with a bit more care. When I can afford too that is.

But for sure, I am grateful to every animal that has, beyond its own will, made me who I am today physically. I am strong, I am fast, I have energy to spare. However, I wouldn't be half the man I am today without every chicken, cow, pig, deer, kangaroo once, and so on. I won't say I regret their deaths, I respect the fact they died, and through that death donated unto me a little more strength.
So I will continue to live strong, without drugs or alcohol. With effort and exercise, in order to preserve the body that was built on the deaths of these creatures.
>>
>>34427700
Meat production is responsible for just about 20% of our greenhouse gas emissions
>>
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>>34427323
"I don't eat meat" is just code for "good bye gains".
>>
>>34427822
I'm trying really hard to respect that but you sound like a huge pussy when you say that stuff. I just don't get it, I was raised by a father who hunts a lot so I guess that's just not my thing
>>
>>34427577
It also has a ridiculous amount of salt
>>
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>>34427822
>>
>>34427822

>I don't approve of the conditions livestock is kept in
>unless I don't want to spend too much, then fuck the animals

>I am very spiritual, I say a prayer before every bite of chicken
>I feign respect for my victims so I can continue being an asshole without feeling like one
>>
>>34428180
>I'm trying really hard to be grown up but I'm still 16 mentally
FTFY
>>
>>34427323
yes, chicken, ground beef and salmon mostly
I know it's awful for the environment and not very ethical or healthy but I just don't care about those issues enough to stop eating it
>>
>>34428180
>be a hunter
>does not respect the animals

by now you should realize your father probably is a redneck
>>
>>34427323
I eat fish and poultry because it has no negative effects and actually has lots of benefits.

I don't eat red meat because of the cancer risk.

pretty simple really.
>>
I'd only really go vegetarian for moral or ethical reasons not necessarily for any hullabaloo about the environment or other nonsense.

That said, my tastebuds and conscience have agreed that meat is delicious and as long as the death is quick I can eat guilt free.
>>
I ate it because we're omnivorous no matter what anyone says. I also love, really love, the taste of meat.

It's simple as that. I ate eggs when I want to eat eggs, I eat meat when I want to eat meat, i eat veggies when I want to eat veggies. I really have no allergies nor weird diseases and can enjoy everything I want to eat.

And before you say "murder" I don't give a fuck, if I were on a mountain and had to kill you in order to survive I'd fucking do it without hesitation.
>>
>>34427666
And have absurd amount of gas while squatting and deadlifting?

Not worth.
>>
>>34428232
>I don't eat red meat because of the cancer risk.
Do you also avoid vaccines so you don't get autism?
>>
>>34428281
idk bout you m8 but beans don't make me gassy they make me regular
>>
>>34428283
Do you also think nitrites and nitrates are perfectly fine to eat?
>>
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Why even eat more than a tiny amount of meat when

>pic related

20g of protein in a 50p can of baked beans.
>>
>>34428213
I don't make a lot of money, so sometimes I don't have a choice.

I don't pray for anything, and am not the least bit spiritual. I respect the food I eat, because I'm grateful to have it.

>>34428180
That's fine. I stand by what I said. If people think I am a huge pussy because of it, then its cool. I can only be who I am
>>
>>34428283

Do any mainstream health institutes say to avoid vaccines like they do with red meat?
>>
>>34428311
>1850mg of sodium in a single can
JUST
>>
>>34428311
Because meat is fucking delicious and I can eat it without taking any extra carbs.
>>
>>34428311
Love baked beans, eat them every day
>>
>>34428311

Baked beans are the shittiest beans
>>
>>34428311
Chickpeas are the best beans tbh
>>
>>34428446
How much for chickpea on my face?
>>
>>34428468
A can of store brand chickpeas costs a dollar at my closest grocery store.

not that cheap, but i live in Norway
>>
>>34427323

>97% bioavailability (unlike shitty vegan food)
>20% protein, 4% bcaa
>zinc
>iron
>b vitamin
>tastes fucking amazing
>>
>>34428311
Its pretty hard to eat 5 of them
>>
I'm cutting down on meat, not because it's bad or anything, but because I enjoy it too much, I'm actively avoiding the foods I enjoy too much since I gorge myself on them when I get going, once I start bulking it's gonna be good mang.
>>
>>34428495
In the states you can buy 1lb of them dried for less than a dollar.

Granted it takes about 3 hours to cook them.
>>
>>34427323
Yes
1. Taste
2. Macros

What discussion to have? Meat has very high protein per calorie. And tons of vitamins and minerals.
>>
Maybe once every 2 months.

Might as well say no.

- Smells disgusting
- Looks disgusting
- Tastes disgusting (the only one that tasted good was lean/boneless chicken breasts)
- Meat and dairy give me acne (skin is always clear without them; something always goes wrong after consuming either of them)
- I get my protein from egg (whites) and whey
- I can supplement essentials
>>
How is this /fit/ related again?
How are vegan threads accepted every single fucking day while we cannot for the life of us have a high test thread?
I mean, if fucking veganism is related to fitness (despite it all being a meme) then how can't fucking women be related to fitness?
Having sex is literally exercise, mods are fucking cucks.
>>
>>34429073
you cannot be vegan and be healthy it is literally impossible fuck /fit/
>>
>>34429077
This.
We have fucking vegan threads every single fucking day and at least 3 of them, while they have literally nothing to do with fitness what so ever.
Every vegan thread can be summed up as: ''HURRR HURRRRRRRRRRRRRR ANIMALS R SUFFERING PLS STOP EATING MEAT''
It has absolutely nothing to do with being healthy or fit, it is just stupid fucking ideologies being forced upon people who don't give a shit.

I swear, you /fit/ mods are the fucking worst.
>>
>>34427323
Vegan
gains
please go
>>
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>be borderline vegan
>still deadlift more than the vast majority of /fit/
>>
I eat meat because I don't want to look like a yellowgreen crazy man
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>>34429142
>being a flip flopper who doesn't commit one way or the other
>lying on the internet
>>
Dont eat meat, haven't eaten for a year and so far it's been great. Energy levels have gone up, gotten leaner while gaining some mass. Generally feeling awesome. Also learned that I love cooking.
>>
>>34429248
>me narrowly failing 240 almost a year ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iouIw8fujzM

Recently hit 245. Probably good for 250 by the end of the year.
>>
>>34429336

Proud
>>
>>34429336
Work on your form a bit man, your diet doesn't matter if you fuck up your back. Also
>Not doing double overhand
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>>34429391
I know, it's the combination of PR attempt fucking up my form and lordosis making it look even worse.

>tfw can only overhand 4.5plate
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>>34427360
>few months ago

Try it for a year and come back. I did it and it got boring as fucking hell. I ended up losing lots of energy and weight because of it.
>>
>>34429448
you're doing it wrong then
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>>34429413
I feel you, keep at it m8
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>>34429459
That's a given.
>>
>>34429452
nahhhhh. It was more like there wasn't enough of anything per day to fill my macros and caloric intake.
Korean food is delicious, most of their dishes are purely just vegetables. But smelling the korean bbq made me hungry.
>>
>>34429494
Macros one obviously has to tinker with a bit given the more limited options, but hitting your caloric intake on a vegetarian diet is easy as fuck.
>>
>>34427323

Yes, it's natural, tastes, and feels good
>>
>>34428281
Cook beans correctly.

Soak in water for 24-48hrs, replace water. Then boil for 10 minutes. Then medium heat until they're very soft.

Eat with sweet potatoes because you want soluble fiber with insoluble fiber. Add 1 forkful raw sauerkraut with each meal.

Chickpeas and lentils are even better for digestion.And lentils are literally the cheapest source for protein. It's a few bucks for 200g protein where I buy them.
>>
>>34428300
Do you think it's even marginally difficult to avoid nitrites and nitrate additives?
>>34428328
Do any worthwhile institutes tell you red meat and cancer are directly linked? Most tell you it is okay to eat sparingly, especially if you remove processed meat, charred food, or meat with excessive additives from your choices. And if you bump up your consumption from factory farmed meat to wild game (or other healthily raised animals), then even better. Meat itself isn't going to give you cancer. "Red meat" is not the devil here if you do it properly. The 'red meat is cancer' crowd is as bad as the 'vaccines make you sick' crowd.
>>
>>34429728
And yet you can just eat meat like a normal human without having to be autistically meticulous about it.
>>
>>34427360
take a cyanide pill if you want to supplement your loss of masculinity you fucking retard.
>>
I don't eat animals, only seafood.
>>
My eggs cost $5 a dozen because I'm ethical unlike op.
>>
>>34427323

it's delicious and a great source of protein

if you lift you are a fucking idiot if you ignore meats
>>
>>34430372
>eating meat = masculinity

lol ok faggot
>>
Nope. If you're a brokefag who needs to learn how to spend like a Jew you'll realize how expensive meat really is when compared to pasta, fruits, vegetables, etc.
>>
>>34430677
If you have a decent size freezer, go to a butcher shop. Cost effective and delicious.
>>
>>34428311
>that sodium
lel enjoy your heart attack vegan
>>
went vegan for a year
lost all gains
lost energy
looked like shit
did more research, realized it's literally retarded and there are people surviving off of nothing but meat in the arctic
realized gelatin and organs are most important part of animal
feel great, got gains back, dgaf about morality
>>
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>>34430710
>vegan
>implying

50g of protein for what equates to a £2.50 meal.
>>
>>34429391
Alternating grip master race.
>>
>>34429099
This.

I know it's related to nutrition which is important in lifting, but these threads go beyond it with so many people spewing their vegan propaganda trying to guilt trip people and everyone else circlejerking "lol fuckin vegans".
>>
>>34429728
I shop at costco so I'm bound to run into some cheap lentils there, thanks bro.
>>
>>34430705
This. Buying meat in bulk is far cheaper than all veggies.
>>
I eat multiple eggs a day because I have hens in my backyard
I eat meat because I like the taste and it helps me get muscles
>>
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>>34429042
>- Tastes disgusting (the only one that tasted good was lean/boneless chicken breasts)
What the fuck anon
>>
Of course, it's one of the biggest most delicious tradition in my country.
t.whitest euro
>>
>>34431341

true story

most people need to dress up the shit out of their meat to make it palatable, even steak is usually peppered /salted
>>
How much worse is chicken thigh, than breast? It just tastes so much better.
>>
>>34431986
Saturated fat is not bad for you. There is no conclusive evidence showing this. It is just a vegan meme. Eat the thighs with the skin on dude, lean meat is gross
>>
>>34432020
broscience please leave

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/NutritionCenter/HealthyEating/Saturated-Fats_UCM_301110_Article.jsp

>Eating foods that contain saturated fats raises the level of cholesterol in your blood. High levels of LDL cholesterol in your blood increase your risk of heart disease and stroke.
>>
>>34432086
Saturated fats also raise HDL. Also the ldl that is raised by saturated fat is the large fluffy type that is harmless. Finally overall cholesterol levels are near irrelevant in determining heart disease factors, what's important are triglycerides hdl:ldl ratios and the ratios of large fluffy ldl: to small dense ldl. But if you had a brain and did the research instead of pirating guidelines that have actively increased the amount of chronic diseases instead of lowering them since they were implemented you would know that. You do realize that Cocoa Puffs and other sugary cereals are approved by the American Heart Association right? Come back to me when you have studied the clinical trials/randomized controlled trials from the 21st century. Thank you
>>
>>34431908
Pepper and salt makes virtually any cut palatable, what the fuck are you on about?
>>
>>34431986
agreed
i always make curries and when i use breast instead of thigh it gets really tough and chewy
>>
Indianfag here i have been a vegetarian all my life until switching recently.

I don't know if it's placebo but iI feel stronger, happier and i can lift more.
>>
>>34432517
>I always make curries

DESIGNATED
>>
>>34432501

>thatsthepoint

Not to good with the reading are you
>>
>>34432377

>Saturated fats also raise HDL

Barely. It raises LDL disproportionately higher.

>Also the ldl that is raised by saturated fat is the large fluffy type that is harmless

Large LDL isn't harmless. People promoting unhealthy diets that raise LDL made this up to excuse the fact that their shitty diets raise LDL.

http://www.athero.org/commentaries/comm564.pdf

>Finally overall cholesterol levels are near irrelevant in determining heart disease factors, what's important are triglycerides hdl:ldl ratios and the ratios of large fluffy ldl: to small dense ldl.

The main risk factor is elevated LDL cholesterol. There's no getting around that.

>But if you had a brain and did the research

If your idea of research is reading conspiracies and crackpot theories on low carb blogs, leave the research to the experts

> pirating guidelines that have actively increased the amount of chronic diseases instead of lowering them since they were implemented

I can shut down the "everything went wrong because people started following diet guidelines" conspiracy simply by pointing out that the guidelines told people to reduce their sugar intake. The majority didn't follow the guidelines, they just eat what's tasty, cheap, and convenient. The people who do follow the guidelines live longer, healthier lives

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24572039

>You do realize that Cocoa Puffs and other sugary cereals are approved by the American Heart Association right?

Substantiate that accusation
>>
>>34432723
>>34432377

Here's a page from the AHA on sugar and sugar cereals

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/NutritionCenter/HealthyEating/Added-Sugars-Add-to-Your-Risk-of-Dying-from-Heart-Disease_UCM_460319_Article.jsp

They say added sugars, including from "ready-to-eat cereals" raise your risk of heart disease, though sugars in fresh fruits don't. Where are they telling us to eat cocoa puffs?
>>
>>34432020

>Saturated fat is not bad for you. There is no conclusive evidence showing this. It is just a vegan meme

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Denialism

shoo shoo artery goblin
>>
>>34432634
yeah righto fuckwit

enjoy your fried chicken nigger
>>
>>34427323
Don't care about killing animals so yes I love eating meat. Might is right and we're at the top of the food chain.

If I told myself it's unethical to eat meat I'd have to go telling all those carnivores in the animal kingdom to stop being so inhumane and eating other animals alive

Morals don't matter when it comes to hunting other animals it's the will to survive and thrive that matters

Stay weak vegan fags
>>
>>34430452
>B-b-but Burger King said I'd be manly if I ate the King Ranch BBQ Sirloin Bacon Burger!
>>
>>34427577
Bruh, don't pull that high horse bullshit if you're still drinking milk/eating dairy.
>>
>>34427666
I can confirm this, my food bill went way down from omni to vegetarian, then down from vegetarian to vegan. There's a reason that poorer parts of the world eat rice and beans and not Philly Cheesesteaks
>>
Carnists are funny

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjwvo68xm2c
>>
>>34432994
It's not immoral for the strong to conquer the weak. I think colonilization, and war to gain more land and resources is perfectly fine too. Darwinism and survival of the fittest

I think what's bad and should be punished with death and not reproducing is being purposefully weak because of some "moral dilemma" you have, which is what's happening to a lot of white countries and certainly to these vegans, or at least if they do reproduce they produce weak offspring which have even less chances of reproducing

Sad to see people offing themselves but they'll either learn or they won't

Nature knows not of mercy, to pray is to accept defeat
>>
>>34433252

I can picture you walking around stepping on caterpillars just to prove to yourself you're a big tough guy. I have more respect for a strong guy who uses his strength to protect those weaker than him over some bully with masculinity issues.
>>
>>34432661
Most veggies are shit without seasoning, and virtually every legume and grain is. If your point is that meat is bad because it's not delicious without doctoring them veganism is even worse you dumb fuck. You have no point, just stop.
>>
>>34432994
>carnists

You mean virtually every human on the planet? Sorry we don't all buy your bullshit meme diet.
>>
>>34428004
We should be concerned about other sources of pollution more tbh fam
>>
>>34433325

found the carnist
>>
>>34433358

The UN seems pretty concerned about meat and dairy in particular

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet
>>
>>34432994
>carnists

lol we all just a bunch of flesh eating dinosaurs or some shit right? LMAO
>>
>>34428496
/thread
>>
>>34433360
>found the human

FTFY you dumb vegan fag.
>>
>>34433390

>carnist rage

careful, all that steak's got your blood pressure dangerously high
>>
>>34433412
Nah, it's just the high test. Stay low test though, I'm sure you'll hit one plate bench in a few years if you keep trying.
>>
>>34433429

>thinks he has high test
>actually has erectile dysfunction from his clogged penis artery
>>
mostly vegetarian for like 3-4 years
mostly vegan for 2-3 months

Feel way better, PR consistently.

Every diet is easy to fuck up if you're a dipshit. People posting about X or X is impossible vegetarian are no better than rhinos talking not being able to lose weight when they "only eat salad"
>>
> Carnist

fuc

kys

Vegan reporting that vegans are insufferable twats.
>>
>>34433475

>being a carnist lover

dispicable
>>
I studied anthropology in my undergrad, and I can attest that there is thorough evidence that humans are evolutionary predisposed to eat high meat diets. Look up the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis; it's actually a pretty interesting read. Basically, we traded the length of our guts for our brains, and so on.

I'm not militantly opposed to people going veg for ethical reasons, but the health arguments are fucked. Also, even the ethical arguments seem like a borderline clinically psychotic system of priorities, given the great deal of human suffering out there in this chaotic universe of ours.
>>
>>34433557
You dumb Fuck trying to seem intelligent. We have an extremely long and pocketed digestive system indicative of plant eaters. Pure carnivores, like cats, have extremely short and smooth digestive tracts. Perfect for digestion of meat only with no nooks for plaque to accumulate. So you're actually the opposite of right on that one. With regard to health is common knowledge that for heart disease plus many more diseases it goes vegan>veg>meat. Meat Eaters have way more heart attacks and blood pressure issues. Also, with regard to ethics you're equally as inane. Why not minimize suffering if possible? Animals are living, feeling entities just like you are me. Why kill and eat them after making them live a short life in horrid conditions if you have other options that are healthier. You are stupid as fuck. I'm a meat eater btw.
>>
>>34433557

> I can attest that there is thorough evidence that humans are evolutionary predisposed to eat high meat diets

The problem with using anthropology to make statements on diet and health is that it's contradicted by the actual study of diet and health, which as all major health institutions agree, points to a diet centered around plant foods and low in meat being a healthier way to eat.

Here's a pretty simple argument to disprove that we're designed by evolution to eat meat. Every animal that we would call a natural meat eater, if fed saturated fat and cholesterol, sees no rise in their blood levels of cholesterol. Humans on the other hand, like rabbits and monkeys, do see a rise. This rise can eventually lead to atherosclerosis. This doesn't happen to truly carnivorous animals, so while anthropology clearly shows that humans have historically eaten meat, and in some cases a lot of meat, actually looking at what it does to our health shows us that we didn't evolve in a way that would have allowed meat to be a healthy long-term food source. When degenerative diseases typically occur past 40 years of age and the typical reproductive age is closer to 20, selection pressures may not be strong enough to influence the evolution of the species in that way. What's most important is basic survival, and simply finding enough calories, regardless of the source (unless it's immediately toxic), is good enough to allow survival.
>>
>>34433625

Salty.

a) The evolutionary trajectory from apes to humans tells a compelling story that meat eating is literally as old as humans, and that' we're predisposed toward it. Gorillas sit around eating leafs for hours each day; we don't have to do that.

b) Concerning health, the problems you're talking about stem from abundance and overconsumption, and not meat itself. Meat eaters in (various) indigenous societies are healthy as fuck, by just about every metric, and they would laugh at the idea of dropping meat from their diets.

c) Ethically, I'm likewise opposed to industrial farming, but IMO life is too short to get all butthurt over eating animals, when there's much more pressing human suffering out there. You do whatever the fuck you want on a personal level, but the various veg movements out there strike me as a remarkable waste of efforts and activist/political capital.

You seem on edge, bruh. Is everything okay?
>>
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>>34427381
I eat pretty much only chicken and turkey. On the odd occasion I will eat red meat. Any ways, meat has good macros and not to mention it tastes great.
>>
>>34433721

Different guy

>Gorillas sit around eating leafs for hours each day; we don't have to do that.

For a number of reasons. What you attribute to meat could be attributed more broadly to cooked food. Humans also evolved to have extra copies of a gene (AMY1) that helps us produce more starch digesting enzymes, which were another major food source for humans, and later became the backbone of all civilization.

>Concerning health, the problems you're talking about stem from abundance and overconsumption, and not meat itself.

What do you mean by that? It's a vague argument to say "it's not bad for you, just eating too much is bad." What's the level at which it shows no harmful effects?

>Meat eaters in (various) indigenous societies are healthy as fuck, by just about every metric, and they would laugh at the idea of dropping meat from their diets.

What people in particular are you talking about and what's their life expectancy like?
>>
>>34427323
Yes, why wouldn't i?
>>
>>34435169

You. I like you.
>>
>>34427682
I eat 500g of cottage cheese (low fat of course), mix it with 1 scoop of chocholate protein powder, 2 bananas and water.. Its great for breakfast
>>
>>34427577
do you slam mosquitoes/flies?

m u r d e r
>>
>>34433792
Vegan fag has arrived to pay overly long, scientifically inaccurate posts once more. I wish we just banned you from here.
>>
yes, because I'm not a faggot.
>>
>>34427323
I would not eat meat if I could, however i have tried several times and I can tell you at least I can't do it.

The first symptoms are non-stop thoughts about meat, then weakness and aching, and eventually hallucinations and nightmares of aztec gods laughing at my diminishing gains.

(record so far has been three and a half weeks with no meat, not doing that again though)
>>
>>34428496
>97% bioavailability (unlike shitty vegan food)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_value#Typical_values
BV is like less than 75%. You'd be better off eating and drinking soy.
>>
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Yes, of course. I follow a moderate- to low-carb diet, and meat is my primary source of protein. I'm including fish and other seafood as well, since people categorize it separately from meat.

Why? Because it tastes good and is a great source of protein. And some types of seafood are both sustainable and king-of-the-gods-tier if you want to increase your omega-3 intake. Sustainability and ethics are issues for some types of meat, but it depends highly on the environment they're raised in. As for health concerns, they're mostly exaggerated. Maybe in Texas people eat two pounds of steak every day, but for the rest of us who don't eat red meat too often, it's not a big deal. Same with meats cured with nitrites, such as salami. It's not good for you, but in moderation you'll be fine.

However, I also eat tofu, eggs, cheese, and sometimes supplement with protein powder. I actually bought some high-protein, high-fibre flatbreads which have a significant amount of protein, too, and they taste like regular flatbreads.
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>>34430883
how do you make that sauce?
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>>34428180
Most hunters respect their game and support conservation of their habitat so that the cycle of life can continue. If your dad is just "hurr time to kill durr." then I couldn't give less of a shit what he thinks.
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