/DIY/

>>12258369
last thread
>>12179707
>>12179707
>>12179707

I dyed a milsurp parka but I won't tell you which one or what colour so it doesn't become a meme here.

Thinking about designing some graphics, probably patches to put on it.

Going for a European occultist look.

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>>12258513
well I want to dye a milsurp parka and I won't tell you which one either.
but is it alright if I just snip off the top of the dylon package and place the package inside the washer? or do I pour the contents into the washer?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I am a stupid man.

>>12258369
still waiting on op to create a tutorial on how he embroidered these... were they hand done or machine?

>>12258580
Pour the contents into the washer. After you dyed the parka rinse the machine a couple of times to get rid off any residue.

>>12258580
Does the dye not come with instructions?

DIY threads are trash

>muh meme flower leddit vans
>muh meme dyed parka
>muh meme dyed backpack

at least do something different

>>12258586
OP here.
I'm not the one who embroidered these shoes, I just chose them as the OP picture because they look damn good
I'm also waiting on a tutorial

>>12258643

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>>12210194
>>12210189
>>12210182
>>12210181
>>12236391
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>>12244686

nice b8 tho

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>>12258610
thanks mang.

>>12258615
it does come with instructions, I just wanted to confirm from someone else if you pour the contents or if you could just place the bag (opened) inside the washer. Guess I get hung up on the minutiae sometimes.

>>12258770
Okay. Being the anon you originally asked, I used a different dye, Simplicol, which contained a bottle and a bag both of which were to be opened and placed in the washing machine. I find it highly questionable that you would use a BW Flecktarn parka btw, such a cliché. Would be cool though if you dyed it another colour, red would be cool.

To the tablar anon,thanks for the explanations. I must say it looks quite shitty in the end, but must be quite some fun to go around wearing those and write shit on friends' ones.

>>12258791
I just like how it looks :) Doesn't bother me that it's a meme.
Dylon's a powder, do you think that'd be fine to just pour straight into the drum?

>>12258805
Do what the instructions say. They are made to help you use the product to its full potential.

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>>12258808
alright, I'll stop worrying and do it.

>>12258513
My guess is you dyed a swiss m70 blue.

>>12258725
i meant original poster, i saw it on the last thread and nutted on myself

>>12258797
>but must be quite some fun to go around wearing those and write shit on friends' ones
it is

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Apologies for the bad color temperature. It should be darker. 1.5 figure left + finishing touches.

>>12259246
>he's still going
Fugg :D

I'm >>12243032
Can anyone recommend some fabrics that'd look good to try make patchwork pants and possibly any inspo? Surprisingly didn't find much when I tried searching up.

Also >>12253619 do you have any mags related to what I wanna make? Or anything for good inspo?

>>12258369
I was wondering how hard would it be to make sneakers yourself?
I saw a video of Nic Galway talking about his EQT f15 3/3 which he didn't draw at all while designing, he just made the damn thing

I thought I could take the soles from some cheap/second hand/whatever shoes and make the upper from scratch.
I did some research on shoemaking, how running shoes and sneakers are put together and on paper it doesn't seem that hard.
Anyone ever attempted anything like this?

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>>12258580
Watching as you commit sudoku on a poor innocent flecktarn parka..

>>12259705
I haven't made sneakers before, but I'm excited to see you try, it sounds cool

>>12258369
What is the best cheapest substitute for natural indigo dye?

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>>12259705
>>12260398
Made a mockup based on the ultra boost silhouette, since I was working with a keyboard and mouse
My idea was a shoe that you tighten by pulling the front part towards the back with laces and then an elastic band that would keep the midfoot snug.
I'll have to do some more research and figure out if this is actually doable. Also have to find some decent shoes to use as donors for the sole

>>12260402
blue blood
you can produce it yourself
it's in those little blue veins that you see under your skin
don't take too much at once though or you might dye
and eat enough protein to produce new blood cells

where can I get cheap/free sewing patterns?

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>>12259598
Weren't the links posted in the previous thread sufficient?

>>12260617
https://shoesandcraft.com/

>>12260627
Due to the iron-rich nature of actual blood, you will get heavy oxidization and the final colour, even before washing, is going to be a rust to brown. A fair amount is going to wash out so you have to redye it a lot of times. The butcher will be able to provide that much amount of blood. You'll end up with a smell though.
http://www.dazeddigital.com/fashion/article/9552/1/boris-bidjan-saberi-menswear-a-w11

If you want a blue colour and you don't want to hassle with salt and buckets, stick to a dylon pack.
https://crafts.tutsplus.com/tutorials/shibori-fundamentals-how-to-make-indigo-dye--cms-21493

>>12260872

Just to note, indigo is kinda finecky and you have to baby it to get it to turn out right. Proper feels like alchemy though, reducing the oxygen levels and seeing the fabric turn from yellowey-green to blue in front of your eyes.

Really stinks as well, do it outside if you don't want a headache. I can post some simple shibori I did on T-shirts if anyone is interested.

I'm gonna sew a backpatch on my jeans jacket, of my own design. I want it to be the same shape as the "back" portion of fabric, so it overlaps perfectly. the process I was thinking is: make paper model > draw design > get it scanned > fix it a bit on Photoshop > get it printed on fabric > cut and sew fabric. last step is the trickiest because of the shape. got any advice?

>>12261035

If its your own design you could just paint / stencil the design onto a piece cut to size for the jacket. Then pin it and handsew.

Or is it too complex to be stenciled? then give your design a reasonable border, and use that area to fit it to the back panel.

>>12260869
pastebin

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printed my favorite image onto a shirt..

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>>12261135
original image

>>12261135
awesome bro I love it

>>12261054
eh in my intention it's gonna be a complex, intricate pen drawing, which is why I wanted to work on paper and then print it on fabric. might get kinda expensive tho. I have some experience with painting on fabric and the look I was going for never turns out good, the details get lost. Ideal would be a screenprint but it's not worth it IMO.

>>12261338

Ah, fair enough. I know what you mean with screenprinting, I have enough to do 1-colour at home, but its such a pain.

I have a few designs I wear as backpatches in acrylic on loose canvas. They hold up well to wear and don't scratch or flake.

You should look into printing on canvas, its actually pretty cheap. Their real profits are in doing photos on stretched canvas, so try and find a smaller co. that do loose pieces and it can be around $10.

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>>12261348
acrylic on canvas can look good imho if it's grungey or prepared with gesso but I have a feel it wouldn't work for my design
pic related, a sketch, gotta fix the anatomy and add detail

>>12261365

ooh, pretty cool. I have been doing some botanicals in an outline style like that recently. If you have access to a scanner I am sure you can vectorise it and be able to print it onto fabric pretty easily.

>>12261418
pretty much my plan. gonna keep you guys posted, hope the thread survives!

>>12260979
please post pics!

>>12261156
thanks man :)

>>12261135
>>12261136
Wow, kill urself

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>>12261445

Note colours lighten quite a lot with drying - these came out a Cyan or thereabouts. 10g did about 8-9 thin 100% cotton tees. I would guess 20g of indigo would achieve this colour when dry.

What kind of paint to use to color my leather Air Force 1?

>>12261644

Leather paint or dye. It should be somewhat pricey for a small amount. Get a roll of masking tape and tape off everything. Take the laces off and give them a wash while you're at it. Be prepared for wonky results. What colour?

>>12261135
>>12261473
agreed. total shite

>>12258820
Update?

>>12261135
I don't understand the hate, it's not ambitious at all but it's not awful either

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>>12260872
Nah they were good links and good info on how to go about it. But there's no inspo of patchwork pants so it'd be hard to start off without a gathering an idea through collecting a good amount of inspiration from different pieces.

In terms of fabrics, not sure whether finding other types of jeans and such would one sufficient. I need to find a damn fabric store in my city, from there I can go ahead and start.

>>12262018

I am also looking into doing some nice indigo patchwork troosers project. As far as I can tell there are two elements to it.

1)plain colour patches, usually with a parallel line or cross stitched pattern on the top
2)a patterned patch, which is held on with straight stitching along the border

Add to this the decorative stitching and grids/circles for small rips or tears and you have a pretty authentic product.

So what do you need to get your hands on? Indigo dyed fabric scraps (Batik is the dye resist method used in both Japan and Indonesia, but also worth looking at shiboru and handpainted fabric) and the correct thread. Boru/Sashiko seems to universally use a coarse, thicker thread for it to look good. This stuff is pretty cheap too ! I've bought Olympus thread, and its lovely stuff compared to polyester thread.

>>12260627
Blood is never blue. Even the blood in veins under the skin that appear blue. Blue light can pass through the skin better, reflecting off the darker red blood in veins. Please don't injure yourself.

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Can i make something like this with a single pair of pants and a large canvas painting? I don't know how close to this pair of pants it would look, for two reasons:
1: I think this technique works by taking 2 pairs of pants and cutting them into horizontal strips that you then sew together, but I only have one pair to fuck up.
2: the pattern on these patches repeats, while I only have one canvas painting, so you probably can't really tell what painting it is.

I don't have any sewing experience either so I'm thinking about just cutting the canvas into strips and gluing them on the pants (and maybe then sewing).

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>>12258820
>>12259741
it died an honorable death.
>>12261862
Sorry for the delay, I was waiting for it to dry completely before taking any pics. The actual dyeing process was about 2 hours.
I dumped 2 packets of Dylon straight into the drum at the same time, placed the jacket (which I had soaked in the sink beforehand) on top of the dye, and then let it run on the hot cycle for 35 mins. Then added detergent for the second cycle and let that run on hot for 35 mins.
Came out looking like pic related.

Looks much darker in real life, but the camo is still subtly visible.
Very happy with it :)

My parka's 80% cotton/20% poly, in case anyone was wondering

>>12263241
I'm 5'8" and about to buy a meme parka but I'm not sure about the size. Can any fellow 5'8" manlet help me out?

>>12263241
anyone has kept the flecktarn camo on headgear part?

>>12263264
what's your chest size?

Are there any good online resources to get started with making my own garments?

My grandmother passed away recently and I've asked if I can have her old sewing machine - I was thinking of starting off by learning to taper trousers.

>>12263351
95 cm

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>>12263264
>>12263398
Take your pick.
5'8 with 95cm chest would be a 2.
I got one that fit the measurements they have listed on these charts and it fits nicely with enough room for a sweater underneath.

you can also google "bundeswehr size chart" and you'll find a bunch of charts to help you.

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I wanna do the whole "I did lsd once at shambhala and it totally changed, my life maaaaaaaaann" look this summer

>>12263406
Thanks for your help, so it's either 2 or 7. Do you think 7 is too long?

>>12263421
If you're between 160-170 cm tall, then I think 7 will be too long for you.

>>12263412
nice
did you also do the "mind bending mystery juice" design or was it there when you bought it?

>>12263395
Patterns come with instructions. A t shirt is a simple project that introduces you to how sew and how something is constructed. The fabric shop can help you which fabric to choose.

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What kind of paint and what material jacket would I need to do something like this?

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>>12265458
Or like this

>>12263241
did you tape off the tag, velcro, and zip parts? I like the brown/black contrast

>>12265672
they are polyester, you can't dye them.

>>12259598
fa.was.a.mistake @ gmail . com
trickyricky

works on the Amazon account, you can read from your computer
I deleted the payment information to protect myself and will add funds every month to pay for the Amazon unlimited account
Use it as much as you want, it's my gift to the board

>>12265678
Sheit bro u chill af senpai

>>12265678
Too kind too kind

>>12265682
That can go in the OP info if it's useful. Therearen't a lot of diy magazines available on the digital section butmaybe seeing the mags that I never flip through (gq, vogue, etc) will yield some good inspo

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>>12265678
I don't know. It's prone to abuse

You could buy separate patterns, but then there's trouble with scanning them in and how to upload them. You need special software and a special printer for that. There are some books mentioned in the pastebin and in the previous threads where I can't find a .pdf of. We could buy them, scan them and upload to them to the MEGA link. Maybe we could do the same for old issues of fashion mags and books (FE: My Dear Bomb), considering how bollocks the latest runway thread was.

>>12258580
>>12263241
Why do you people keep on doing this?
There are thousands of different kinds of camouflaged parkas out there!
How mindfucked by the internet can one be?

>>12266125
it looks nice :^)

>>12263924
On it already, the first letters were green too (you can kinda still see the green) which looked fine but I think the tie dye added a level of hippy shit I can get behind

>>12265935
f.am I'm the mag anon
you can read any of the Amazon Unlimited titles from your computer for free
and you can use google chrome's developer tools to filter the jpg URLs, that's how i get most of my magazines nowadays cuz it only costs 10 bucks a month

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>>12265935
there's not a lot to it =)

>>12265462

acrylic paint works basically permanently on any non-stretch fabric (stretch too but it cracks)

>>12266617
"gay sex with hats" lmao

>>12258580
w2c?

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fresh off tha sewing table

>>12267173
You do you, anon

>>12267173
I like the diy aspect of everything, but the question mark could've been better i m o

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>>12267173

"No, no you don't get it. It's MEANT to look like a 5 year old did it!"

>>12266127
AAAAAAAH! Overdyed camo looks nice nice most of the time! Get creative, nigger!

>>12267078
Amy surplus shop,there usually like 10-25 euro.
Its a German army flecktarn parka,pretty big meme piece.

>>12265654
No way you did that yourself

>>12262186
Damn, was meant to reply to you and didn't get round to it.

Thanks for the extra info anon.

I'll look into finding these type of fabrics and I'll try buy some olympus thread. I'll need a bunch of needles, threads, pins, scissors etc. Ah this is going to be a pain but I'm excited.

thanks man

>>12269213

No prob pal. It'll be about a week til I have my hands on my patchwork stuff but I'll make sure to post it here when I do. Will be hoping to see stuff from you too!

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>>12269225
Got any links of places to buy stuff? So far I've got this on my amazon list, but unsure what else I can get. I reckon UK amazon is quite limited.

You're probably a lot more knowledgeable so I'll probably be a long while before I even get started.

>>12261365
Nice artwork, you got a blog?

I've got some raw denim jeans from when I fell for reddit workwear memes.

I've barely wore them and now they go with none of my coats or shirts.

Can I lighten them with a drop of bleach in salt water?

How will the raw indigo dye react with bleach? I want to lighten them evenly.

>>12268397
at least it looks like. a question mark

I was so high I don't remember posting this here but yeah as >>12268413 so kindy mentioned it does look a bit shoddy

>>12261644
Angelus is the best imo. If you want it to look perfect you're gonna need to strip the factory coat off the shoes before painting. I would also use the finisher they sell too.

>>12261135
How do?
What's the texture like, is it actually apart of the shirts fibers or is there a vinyl like film on top?

>>12270255
Your best bet is to try it out on a pair you don't like

>>12269869
hmu @hatsforunicorns on insta

https://freesewing.org/

>>12271428
It's transfer paper so there's a vinyl like paper that's been ironed onto the shirt. I would like it to be a part of the shirt fibers but idk how i could do that.

>>12261135
literally wash it once and you'll kill yourself
ruins the image, just letting you know

>>12273510
Found that out the hard way unfortunately. Luckily, if you iron it again it'll look just the same (with a few minor scratches). Any tips on how to wash it in the future? I'm thinking hand washing and air drying.

>>12258369
designed and made some leather luggage, not sure if it really applies since it's not clothing. Anyone interested?

>>12273542
not really. I used to do that in high school but found out that the only iron-on transfers that look halfway decent are:
1) the letters, like from the Vote for Pedro shirts
2) the transfers designed specifically for white shirts; it's an entirely different layout and the results are actually really good for white / light colored / heather gray shirts, man


my cousin learned how to DIY screenprint in high school but I never had the patience, but that's worth considering; I'm assuming that stuff's a lot easier now than when I was in school. where the internet advice recommended that you'd bring images to a copyshop and ask that they be copied using really weird instructions that no jackasses at Kinkos would understand (aka wasting a ton of money and time on garbage), especially with youtube and shit

>>12273923
Post it my dude

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>>12274031

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>>12274047

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>>12274048

>>12274048
It's not finished yet, still another catch on the front and finishing the raw edges

>>12274056
Bad choice of leather

>>12274224 What's wrong with it?

>>12272512
Nice concept, I hope it'll work out

>>12267173
are you, by any chance, european and a member of elite anarcho commie faggots?

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>>12260979
Did a pair of white 70s chucks as a gift. It was great to see it turning from yellow to grean to blue. It was a real mess though.

>>12260617
This is actually a very cool design anon

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i chopped my sk8 his

>>12275231
Do you live in australia?

anyone here DIY lightened their hair ? how did that work?

>>12261135
I thought you could only transfer onto white shirts? How did you print the white parts?

how do we feel about /diy/ the board

>>12277125
You faggots will be eaten alive.
Ask /cgl/ instead.

>>12277125
Diy is for guys that either want Reddit menswear or to look like mountain men (not much of a difference). Go look at their leather work general, the thickest gauge leathers ever, with sloppy everything. They might have general handyness down but as far as diy clothing related stuff they aren't the best.

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Do I need a heavy duty (or industrial) sewing machine to sew a denim jacket? If so, are there any affordable options?

>>12275231
Wow that drastically improves the sillhoette, gj anon

>>12260617
Made some patterns based on my roshes, but the problem I'm having is that I don't have any shoe lasts and I can't find them anywhere for a decent price
Any ideas where I could get some shoe lasts for cheap?

>>12274822
Thanks mate

>>12261135
omg i absolutely love soko n i never see her here

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hi diyers,

I'm kinda wanting to do the DIY Raf parka, but can't quite decide on the image, but I'd like it to be some medieval scripture with a colorful big initial.

I've photoshopped this mock up - what's your thoughts? is the white on black thing too plain?

>>12277259
not really, can be done on a universal maschine, you just need to be a bit more carefull, and guide the material with your hand since youll probablly only be working with bottom transport

>>12278301
If I were you I'd pick a page with a bit more drawings, like something from the book of kells, but it looks neat as it is

>>12278159
For shoe lasts, I have heard of people going on etsy and finding them, maybe ebay. There is a website i found a while back that sells them too, i just googled where to find shoe lasts to buy or some shit like that

>>12258369
Where did you buy all those Japanese magazines OP? Would make amazing /fa/ coffee table books

>>12261365
looks like a rip of @empartridge's style

>>12277118
There's special paper for black fabrics. Just look up transfer paper for dark fabrics.

>>12278280
Haha, yeah. Tbh I only enjoy a few of her songs but I absolutely love that image for some reason, it's just so aesthetically pleasing to me.

>>12279103
I second this, anyone know?

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>Put it on upside down

>>12279286
So there is, thanks m8.

>>12279388
np

>>12274050
>>12274048
>>12274047
damn, my man, looking neato. Personally not my aesthetic, but that looks like it took a lot of work. Did you consider stamping a pattern into the leather?

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hey /fa/, loser from /v/ here.

Ordered a patch for my jacket that was looking kinda bare, and I've never patched anything in my life;

The patch is an iron on, and from what i've researched, I'm not sure if I should either just sew this on, or iron & sew. See, the interior of this jacket is a separate layer from the outside, and I'm not sure if ironing this would fuck that up.

Getting some help with the stitching from my grandmother tomorrow.

>>12279598
Nigger.

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>>12279614
what

>>12279598
Just have her sew it on with black thread. You can iron it on but if you choose to remove it in the future it'll leave adhesive on your jacket
Subtle vidya shit will get you laughed at btw, except for miku, which gets a pass for some reason
Also, thanks for not starting a thread like every other cross poster

>>12279628
Pretty sure like, 90% of the people at my college only play Battlefield and Calla Duty, if that.

>>12279598
Iron first then sew. It'll take some finesse to do tho

>>12279636
But they'll know what the patch means, man. And the guys at game stop will talk about it when you walk out of the store

>>12279643
>buying from gamestop
>not buying everything online
Come on, senpai. You don't pay full price for everything, now do you?

>>12279666
No but I don't sit around at home all day either. I make the rounds at my normal stores and shit, including game stop, even though I buy online exclusively
I like going there to people watch

>>12279598
this is too subtle to get you laughed at i m o

I'd advice only sewing so that you can remove it if you want to put it elsewhere

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I painted this on a jacket it says "High Priestess"
I do commissions ;)

>>12280390
how much do you ask for?

>>12280390
Pretty damn sweet. Just generic acrylic paint?

>>12279628
>>12279643
You're projecting hard af rn, man. Stop worrying if people are gonna laugh at you for what you're wearing. If you like it, wear it.

>>12280390
That's fucking sweet.

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Embroidered these sweatshirts and made the labels for them. I also embroidered my own patches. I just opened my store yesterday

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>>12281145
Here's the patch

>>12278301
nah its fine. there's more colors and tones on the print so there's contrast

>>12260617
i just took off the laces off my adidas pureboost zg's it kinda has a resemblance to your design. also the womens adidas tubular defiant. i like the design you have. i think it will work out

File: film-not-dead-persepolis-punk-scene-Favim.com-44880.jpg (13KB, 500x270px) Image search: [Google]

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I want to recreate this jacket

>>12261135
That looks great, mate. Well done.

I have a pair of bell bottom jeans. They're ripped in places but not obviously distressed, and also a bit long on me, the hem is a bit damaged because I always walk on them.
I am thinking of shortening and fraying the hem but wondering if anyone else has other ideas?

>>12281496
thanks my guy

>>12281145
w2c?

>>12275231
I've been thinking about doing this actually, do you have any more pics from different angles?

thinking about putting patches on my oversize hoodie. is that stupid?

>>12282190
not at all, as long as the colours match

>>12282190
post the hoodie and the patches

>>12265654
nigger whatdoes that even say

>>12280585
>>12280617
>>12281076
Very Cheap! Follow @phidenim on instagram

>>12280617
Yes I use a acrylic paint, fabric paint and emroidery

File: uPN9e2_aaos_qauqCZK80isX0YXhWBKd15GZuVUpRmw.jpg (54KB, 972x500px) Image search: [Google]

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is this actually something that could be done by half bleaching a coloured cheap cotton sweatshirt?

>>12283278
ye

http://www.cut-magazine.com/en/download_category/downloads-en/

>>12274766
Looks cool

File: 20170302_145123.jpg (2MB, 2560x1920px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2560x1920px

>>12286558
Butchered two jackets and made this

>>12279598
You will never be /fa/ if you're that fat.
Lose weight chubster.

>>12286558
Personally would never wear it, but looks really clean!
Good job, black.prolly would have worked better

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>>12283278
I think it is going to look weird if it is just bleached

is there a way to just dip it in colour? what colour would i use

>>12286574
>red velvet
nice

I bought two coverall suits online and theyre far too big, so i'm shrinking them down today. Hot wash hot dry method.

If that doesnt work, I'm thinking about cutting the sleeves and the legs to close to the UPS coveralls sizing, but slightly closer to the knee.

I know its not much, but its my first time doin this shit. Anyone have any tips for patches/things that'd go well with my coveralls?

>>12266604
>>12266617
(╬ ಠ益ಠ)
I can't find stuff like Readers Digest: Complete Guide to Sewing/Needlework (ordered both), 032c, White Fungus, La Maison Victor or Cut on Kindle. Some stuff of Burda, but all of that is for females.
BTW, I can't find Take Ivy in the jap mag pastebin, so: http://www73.zippyshare.com/v/I0tYuMO5/file.html

>>12287642
Pockets?

>>12281145
>$30 shipping to UK.

NOPE.

File: 16358960_1179930132115075_1260143800_n.jpg (12KB, 195x320px) Image search: [Google]

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friend diy'd this levi jacket for me

>>12287664
Has loads upon loads of pockets, got them from milisurp

>>12286630
>buy green sweater
>dip in black dye
>????
>profit

File: tien.png (549KB, 591x467px) Image search: [Google]

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>>12258369

I have this 30 year old Levi's jacket, and it's all fucked up, so I've decided to wear it only to concerts and shit, since I recently got a new and better one.

I want to use patches and shit to cover some of the fucked up parts and would like to add a hoodie from an old sweatsuit.

How the fuck do I do this? I've never sewn anything in my life, can't I just use some kind of glue?

>>12287715
Painted or sewed on?

File: 1483036683878.jpg (2MB, 800x2654px) Image search: [Google]

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>>12286630

>>12288323
Its a sewed on wool wall carpet

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I think my problem can be related to this general, sorry if not.
Just thrifted oversized adidas windbreaker for $5, but there are some old paint stains on it. How to remove them without damaging it?
Can't say what material it's made of, there is no information about it.

>>12287664
http://amzn.asia/fUIpmhg
Http://Amzn.Asia/3vIvT48
天然生活 (Magazine, every issue has different hobbies / how to guides)
found this

Planning on painting my converses black, what paint should I use

>>12288138
Just learn to sew, it isn't that difficult. Textile glue does exist, but it's awful it gets everywhere and it doesn't even hold up that well

>>12289990
acrylic or dye

>>12265678
Can't log in?

>>12291453
what weren't you able to do
worked fine for me

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>>12266127

>>12291503
"We can not find an account with that email address"
Tried without spaces. Tried with and without dots.