Why isn't it retconned? We've seen comics back off

>>94526032
>WHY

*WHY?

Quesada and Slott are massive not muh fags who are so autistic thousands of dollars won't change their minds.

File: Whatever 3.png (365KB, 464x550px) Image search: [Google]

365KB, 464x550px

>>94526032
I don't get it with MJxPeter fans, you got two universe for your ship and a movie.

>>94526142
Take your favorite comic character. Imagine if one day out of the blue the writers said that 40 years of stories and character development no longer mattered and proceeded to turn the character into a flanderization of themselves.

>>94526142
>omd comes out
>thousands of people drop asm
>omit comes out
>thousands of people drop asm again
>months and years pass and thousands of people still haven't picked up asm again

ASM used to come out multiple times every month and sold 100k issues on average.

These days it's lucky to get 80k. Still great numbers but the drop from then for specifically one comic run is incredibly bad.

Can you imagine any business seeing that drop in sales for their best product?

>>94526142
Its more the current version of "NOT MUH PETER". At least when Pete was wit the MJ Peter was written halfway decent. I mean, MJ was part of Petes holy love interest trinity. Along with the Felicia and Gwen the Green Cuckinator.

Nowadays we have Bendis trying his best to make 616 Pete look like an absolute incompetent failure. Slott making him a terrible person who belittles people who believes in god or making him a complete asshole to anyone who try and give him advice. Then we got Zdarsky just making him a man child fanboy who throws out 2 to 3 quips per page in a failed attempt to be funny.

RNYV is seen as the Spiderman gold standard now because it is well written . It bring a new dynamic to Peter, one he should of had years ago. He is in his late 20s to early 30s. He should be the patriarch of the spider family now just like Batman is to the Batfamily. But we only see him ever interacting with Miles because of you know who controlling the narrative with the spider family within Marvel.

Status Quo stagnation is taking a toll on the writing. Rebirth shows us breaking the Statis Quo even a little is refreshing and able to reinvegerate the franchise of a character.

>>94526258
>RNYV is seen as the Spiderman gold standard now
That's just outright sad.
>because it is well written
Lol

>>94526224
It already happen. Superman red underwear....

Here's some especially annoying thing about OMD for me.
>let's prolong Aunt May's life
>so she could just disappear
I don't remember the last time she was an actual character and not a background extra with very little personality. Oh, no. Wait I do. It was during JMS' run.

>>94526269
>>because it is well written
>Lol

Compared to Bendis and Slott's and Zdarsky's Spider-Man stuff lately, it definitely is. That may not be saying much though.

>>94526255
X-men went from 100k on multiple titles to struggling 50k. marvel really loves spiting his face.

>>94526258

It would help if every spiderman book didn't introduce a new love interest who never gets any development whatsoever, meaning only waifufags care about them.

>>94526346

The ones who stuck around are real hardcore fans borderline Stockholm Syndrome. And it actually worked out because they stuck with the X-men and kept the Inhumans down. Otherwise there'd be maybe one or two X-titles and 99% of mutants would be in comic limbo along with Sue and Reed and the Future Foundation.

>>94526341
I feel like it could use more time for character interactions because they usually feel rushed and pretty bland in the book and they are supposed to be the foundation of the book. (and in case if someone mentions it, yes, you can totally do that in one or two issues so I'm not asking for Bendis-tier decompression.)
I just can't bring myself to give a fuck about MJ or her daughter, they're such boring characters.

I guess Spider-fags are that desperate for a good book that they overhype it so much.

>>94526258

>Status Quo stagnation is taking a toll on the writing. Rebirth shows us breaking the Statis Quo even a little is refreshing and able to reinvegerate the franchise of a character.
Except rebirth is doing worse than pre nu 52. I like DC but reboots are cancer and it was the worst move to make. DC needed to have the balls to age the characters and move to new characters instead of just resetting everything. Gradually moving to new characters showing the generation fucking aging. this is why the Big two are selling less. Long time readers are leaving and new ones don't really want to get in. With movies and shows they have LESS incentive to bother.

>>94526409
Read Parellel Lives. MY is a complex as he'll character.

>>94526437
Mj*

>>94526415
Nah. No reboots is why I never read any Marvel.

>>94526409

I like it because it feels like a real legacy title. This is just borrowing from 90s and 00s continuity and not really pushing the envelope, unless you think JeanxLogan is drastic. I'm sure this also appeals to Spider-Girl fans as well.

The writing is solid and I appreciate Peter's growth from single guy who can't keep a girl to save her life to a family man sharing his powers with his wife and dealing with a daughter that may be the female version of Gohan.

And ASM just seems like it was written to annoy people. Fucking Osborne got away AGAIN. Even Peter in the old days was able to put Norman behind bars from time to time.

>>94526437
That has nothing to do with anything, anon.
Alright, let me put it differently. I'm not saying 616 MJ is bad. If she was, I wouldn't get so invested in Spider-Man comics.
I'm saying RYV MJ is bad because there is not a single scene with her that makes me give a fuck. It works the same way as me liking Stern's Peter for instance and hating Slott's even if it's technically the same character.

>>94526449
>his powers with his wife and dealing with a daughter that may be the female version of Gohan.

It sounds like superman family, I prefer him being different.

>>94526446
What? Can you explain why?

>>94526415
>rebirth is topping sales charts effortlessly
>undoes the new 52 reboot and merely merges some of its elements into old continuity
>superman has a family
>batman has a son and is getting married

The only fair criticism I have seen of Rebirth is that it's slow to get to lesser known characters and is playing it safe and considering how DCYou went down I can't blame them. Not only that but we've seen what they have in store for the future, DC has a foundation and they are slowly building off of it.

>>94526415
>Except rebirth is doing worse than pre nu 52.

Pre-New 52:

11/2010: Batman #704 -- 65,212 (-15.4%)
12/2010: Batman #705 -- 63,262 (- 3.0%)
01/2011: Batman #706 -- 60,231 (- 4.8%)
02/2011: Batman #707 -- 58,803 (- 2.4%)
03/2011: Batman #708 -- 58,594 (- 0.4%)
04/2011: Batman #709 -- 56,578 (- 3.4%)
05/2011: Batman #710 -- 55,086 (- 2.6%)
06/2011: Batman #711 -- 53,113 (- 3.6%)
07/2011: Batman #712 -- 51,385 (- 3.3%)
08/2011: Batman #713 -- 51,760 (+ 0.7%)

Rebirth:

12/2016: Batman #13 -- 108,407 (- 2.7%)
01/2017: Batman #14 -- 106,816 (- 1.5%)
01/2017: Batman #15 -- 102,802 (- 3.8%)
02/2017: Batman #16 -- 102,096 (- 0.7%)
02/2017: Batman #17 -- 99,637 (- 2.4%)
03/2017: Batman #18 -- 98,100 (- 1.5%)
03/2017: Batman #19 -- 97,501 (- 0.6%)
04/2017: Batman #20 -- 97,544 (+ 0.0%)
04/2017: Batman #21 -- 219,472 (+134.1%) [228,310]
05/2017: Batman #22 -- 186,914 (- 18.1%)
05/2017: Batman #23 -- 96,542 (- 48.3%)
06/2017: Batman #24 -- 116,037 (+ 20.2%)
06/2017: Batman #25 -- 102,798 (- 11.4%)

>>94526513
Pre-New 52:

10/2010: Detective Comics #870 -- 35,674 (- 4.6%)
11/2010: Detective Comics #871 -- 36,941 (+ 3.6%)
12/2010: Detective Comics #872 -- 37,961 (+ 2.8%) [39,758]
01/2011: Detective Comics #873 -- 38,417 (+ 1.2%)
02/2011: Detective Comics #874 -- 39,106 (+ 1.8%)
03/2011: Detective Comics #875 -- 40,047 (+ 2.4%)
04/2011: Detective Comics #876 -- 40,133 (+ 0.2%)
05/2011: Detective Comics #877 -- 39,609 (- 1.3%)
06/2011: Detective Comics #878 -- 39,152 (- 1.2%)
07/2011: Detective Comics #879 -- 39,185 (+ 0.1%)
07/2011: Detective Comics #880 -- 38,585 (- 1.5%)
08/2011: Detective Comics #881 -- 39,729 (+ 3.0%)

Rebirth:

12/2016: Detective Comics #946 -- 66,374 (- 5.1%)
12/2016: Detective Comics #947 -- 65,090 (- 1.9%)
01/2017: Detective Comics #948 -- 64,090 (- 1.5%)
01/2017: Detective Comics #949 -- 61,543 (- 4.0%)
02/2017: Detective Comics #950 -- 62,628 (+ 1.8%)
02/2017: Detective Comics #951 -- 59,630 (- 4.8%)
03/2017: Detective Comics #952 -- 59,722 (+ 0.2%)
03/2017: Detective Comics #953 -- 59,160 (- 0.9%)
04/2017: Detective Comics #954 -- 58,187 (- 1.6%)
04/2017: Detective Comics #955 -- 57,666 (- 0.9%)
05/2017: Detective Comics #956 -- 57,178 (- 0.8%)
05/2017: Detective Comics #957 -- 56,344 (- 1.5%)
06/2017: Detective Comics #958 -- 56,226 (- 0.2%)
06/2017: Detective Comics #959 -- 55,449 (- 1.4%)

>>94526523
Pre-New 52:

08/2010: Wonder Woman #602 -- 38,012 (- 4.2%)
09/2010: Wonder Woman #603 -- 38,852 (+ 2.2%)
10/2010: Wonder Woman #604 -- 37,405 (- 3.7%)
11/2010: --
12/2010: Wonder Woman #605 -- 35,495 (- 5.1%)
01/2011: Wonder Woman #606 -- 33,601 (- 5.3%)
02/2011: Wonder Woman #607 -- 33,053 (- 1.6%)
03/2011: Wonder Woman #608 -- 32,540 (- 1.6%)
03/2011: Wonder Woman #609 -- 31,421 (- 3.4%)
04/2011: Wonder Woman #610 -- 31,002 (- 1.3%)
05/2011: --
06/2011: Wonder Woman #611 -- 30,874 (- 0.4%)
06/2011: Wonder Woman #612 -- 30,690 (- 0.6%)
07/2011: Wonder Woman #613 -- 29,720 (- 3.2%)
08/2011: Wonder Woman #614 -- 29,223 (- 1.7%)

Rebirth:

10/2016: Wonder Woman #9 -- 64,555 (- 2.8%)
11/2016: Wonder Woman #10 -- 60,185 (- 5.8%)
11/2016: Wonder Woman #11 -- 58,692 (- 3.5%)
12/2016: Wonder Woman #12 -- 55,639 (- 5.2%)
12/2016: Wonder Woman #13 -- 54,589 (- 1.9%)
01/2017: Wonder Woman #14 -- 52,784 (- 3.3%)
01/2017: Wonder Woman #15 -- 50,978 (- 3.4%)
02/2017: Wonder Woman #16 -- 49,921 (- 2.1%)
02/2017: Wonder Woman #17 -- 48,662 (- 2.5%)
03/2017: Wonder Woman #18 -- 47,484 (- 2.4%)
03/2017: Wonder Woman #19 -- 46,745 (- 1.6%)
04/2017: Wonder Woman #20 -- 45,266 (- 3.2%)
04/2017: Wonder Woman #21 -- 44,597 (- 1.5%)
05/2017: Wonder Woman #22 -- 44,114 (- 1.1%)
05/2017: Wonder Woman #23 -- 43,704 (- 0.9%)
06/2017: Wonder Woman #24 -- 43,371 (- 0.8%)
06/2017: Wonder Woman #25 -- 44,106 (+ 1.7%)

>>94526513
>>94526523
Post the new 52 sales.

>>94526525
Pre-New 52:

08/2010: Teen Titans #86 -- 24,971 (+ 3.0%)
09/2010: Teen Titans #87 -- 23,259 (- 6.9%)
10/2010: Teen Titans #88 -- 27,637 (+18.8%)
11/2010: Teen Titans #89 -- 26,444 (- 4.3%)
12/2010: Teen Titans #90 -- 25,997 (- 1.7%)
01/2011: Teen Titans #91 -- 25,443 (- 2.1%)
02/2011: Teen Titans #92 -- 26,170 (+ 2.9%)
03/2011: Teen Titans #93 -- 24,957 (- 4.6%)
04/2011: Teen Titans #94 -- 25,187 (+ 0.9%)
05/2011: Teen Titans #95 -- 24,738 (- 1.8%)
06/2011: Teen Titans #96 -- 23,849 (- 3.6%)
07/2011: Teen Titans #97 -- 23,138 (- 3.0%)
07/2011: Teen Titans #98 -- 23,095 (- 0.2%)
08/2011: Teen Titans #99 -- 23,756 (+ 2.9%)
08/2011: Teen Titans #100 -- 27,459 (+15.6%)

Rebirth:

09/2016: Rebirth #1 -- 93,411 (+378.0%)
10/2016: Teen Titans #1 -- 71,459 (- 23.5%)
11/2016: Teen Titans #2 -- 52,877 (- 26.0%)
12/2016: Teen Titans #3 -- 44,116 (- 16.6%)
01/2017: Teen Titans #4 -- 41,304 (- 6.4%)
02/2017: Teen Titans #5 -- 39,028 (- 5.5%)
03/2017: Teen Titans #6 -- 37,572 (- 3.7%)
04/2017: Teen Titans #7 -- 36,056 (- 4.0%)
05/2017: Teen Titans #8 -- 43,385 (+ 20.3%)
06/2017: Teen Titans #9 -- 36,058 (- 16.9%)

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345KB, 576x592px

>>94526513
>not only is it selling almost 2x as much per issue, it's selling twice as many comics each month

>>94526535
Pre-New 52:

08/2010: Green Arrow #3 -- 46,308 (+ 5.0%)
09/2010: Green Arrow #4 -- 44,220 (- 4.5%)
10/2010: Green Arrow #5 -- 42,188 (- 4.6%)
11/2010: Green Arrow #6 -- 39,575 (- 6.2%)
12/2010: Green Arrow #7 -- 36,835 (- 6.9%)
01/2011: Green Arrow #8 -- 35,307 (- 4.2%)
02/2011: Green Arrow #9 -- 33,922 (- 3.9%)
03/2011: Green Arrow #10 -- 33,085 (- 2.5%)
04/2011: Green Arrow #11 -- 32,669 (- 1.3%)
05/2011: Green Arrow #12 -- 31,742 (- 2.8%)
06/2011: Green Arrow #13 -- 27,552 (- 13.2%)
07/2011: Green Arrow #14 -- 25,568 (- 7.2%)
08/2011: Green Arrow #15 -- 23,883 (- 6.6%)

Rebirth:

06/2016: Green Arrow #1 -- 76,816 (- 4.4%) [92,931]
07/2016: Green Arrow #2 -- 80,134 (- 13.8%)
07/2016: Green Arrow #3 -- 80,150 (+ 0.0%)
08/2016: Green Arrow #4 -- 74,335 (- 7.3%)
08/2016: Green Arrow #5 -- 69,530 (- 6.5%)
09/2016: Green Arrow #6 -- 55,330 (- 20.4%)
09/2016: Green Arrow #7 -- 52,794 (- 4.6%)
10/2016: Green Arrow #8 -- 49,904 (- 7.4%)
10/2016: Green Arrow #9 -- 46,606 (- 4.7%)
11/2016: Green Arrow #10 -- 43,355 (- 7.0%)
11/2016: Green Arrow #11 -- 41,576 (- 4.1%)
12/2016: Green Arrow #12 -- 38,515 (- 7.4%)
12/2016: Green Arrow #13 -- 37,365 (- 3.0%)
01/2017: Green Arrow #14 -- 35,733 (- 4.4%)
01/2017: Green Arrow #15 -- 34,590 (- 3.2%)
02/2017: Green Arrow #16 -- 33,371 (- 3.5%)
02/2017: Green Arrow #17 -- 32,392 (- 2.9%)
03/2017: Green Arrow #18 -- 31,838 (- 1.7%)
03/2017: Green Arrow #19 -- 30,984 (- 2.7%)
04/2017: Green Arrow #20 -- 30,216 (- 2.5%)
04/2017: Green Arrow #21 -- 29,993 (- 0.7%)
05/2017: Green Arrow #22 -- 28,931 (- 3.5%)
05/2017: Green Arrow #23 -- 28,291 (- 2.2%)
06/2017: Green Arrow #24 -- 27,737 (- 2.0%)
06/2017: Green Arrow #25 -- 27,388 (- 1.3%)

>>94526032
Because Spider-Man is a HUGE character to give him such a rigid status quo. In all the media (cartoons, movies, toys, comic books, strips), only in one Peter was married. And this married was a comercial stun. So makes sense to keep Spider-Man in a indefinide age, it's easier to promote.

>>94526548
Pre New-52:

08/2010: Action Comics #892 -- 36,401 (+ 3.0%)
09/2010: Action Comics #893 -- 33,948 (- 6.7%)
10/2010: Action Comics #894 -- 42,291 (+24.6%)
11/2010: Action Comics #895 -- 33,089 (-21.8%)
12/2010: Action Comics #896 -- 32,357 (- 2.2%)
01/2011: Action Comics #897 -- 32,134 (- 0.7%)
02/2011: Action Comics #898 -- 31,935 (- 0.6%)
03/2011: Action Comics #899 -- 31,808 (- 0.4%)
04/2011: Action Comics #900 -- 60,152 (+89.1%) [73,004]
05/2011: Action Comics #901 -- 44,143 (-26.6%)
06/2011: Action Comics #902 -- 41,960 (- 5.0%)
07/2011: Action Comics #903 -- 40,205 (- 4.2%)
08/2011: Action Comics #904 -- 39,323 (- 2.2%)

Rebirth:

06/2016: Action Comics #957 -- 82,884 (+136.1%) [95,893]
06/2016: Action Comics #958 -- 83,227 (- 4.6%) [91,462]
07/2016: Action Comics #959 -- 91,671 (+ 0.2%)
07/2016: Action Comics #960 -- 83,281 (- 9.2%)
08/2016: Action Comics #961 -- 79,003 (- 5.1%)
08/2016: Action Comics #962 -- 70,761 (- 10.4%)
09/2016: Action Comics #963 -- 60,824 (- 14.0%)
09/2016: Action Comics #964 -- 58,439 (- 3.9%)
10/2016: Action Comics #965 -- 55,678 (- 4.7%)
10/2016: Action Comics #966 -- 53,467 (- 4.0%)
11/2016: Action Comics #967 -- 50,611 (- 5.3%)
11/2016: Action Comics #968 -- 48,931 (- 3.3%)
12/2016: Action Comics #969 -- 46,573 (- 4.8%)
12/2016: Action Comics #970 -- 45,856 (- 1.5%)
01/2017: Action Comics #971 -- 44,894 (- 2.1%)
01/2017: Action Comics #972 -- 43,110 (- 4.0%)
02/2017: Action Comics #973 -- 43,047 (- 0.1%)
02/2017: Action Comics #974 -- 41,712 (- 3.1%)
03/2017: Action Comics #975 -- 47,382 (+ 13.6%)
03/2017: Action Comics #976 -- 46,846 (- 1.1%)
04/2017: Action Comics #977 -- 43,865 (- 6.4%)
04/2017: Action Comics #978 -- 43,555 (- 0.7%)
05/2017: Action Comics #979 -- 43,336 (- 0.5%)
05/2017: Action Comics #980 -- 42,811 (- 1.2%)
06/2017: Action Comics #981 -- 42,520 (- 0.7%)
06/2017: Action Comics #982 -- 41,799 (- 1.7%)

>>94526581
Pre-New 52:

08/2010: Superman #702 -- 50,023 (- 8.2%)
09/2010: --
10/2010: Superman #703 -- 50,460 (+ 0.9%)
10/2010: Superman #704 -- 46,741 (- 7.4%)
11/2010: Superman #705 -- 46,261 (- 1.0%)
12/2010: Superman #706 -- 43,027 (- 7.0%)
01/2011: Superman #707 -- 41,843 (- 2.8%)
02/2011: Superman #708 -- 40,639 (- 2.9%)
03/2011: Superman #709 -- 39,846 (- 2.0%)
04/2011: Superman #710 -- 39,644 (- 0.5%)
05/2011: Superman #711 -- 38,471 (- 3.0%)
06/2011: Superman #712 -- 37,362 (- 2.9%)
07/2011: Superman #713 -- 36,646 (- 1.9%)
08/2011: Superman #714 -- 35,919 (- 2.0%)

Rebirth:

09/2016: Superman #6 -- 76,124 (- 14.9%)
09/2016: Superman #7 -- 72,867 (- 4.3%)
10/2016: Superman #8 -- 69,905 (- 4.1%)
10/2016: Superman #9 -- 67,321 (- 3.7%)
11/2016: Superman #10 -- 66,956 (- 0.5%)
11/2016: Superman #11 -- 63,686 (- 4.9%)
12/2016: Superman #12 -- 60,992 (- 4.2%)
12/2016: Superman #13 -- 59,393 (- 2.6%)
01/2017: Superman #14 -- 60,409 (+ 1.7%)
01/2017: Superman #15 -- 57,412 (- 5.0%)
02/2017: Superman #16 -- 56,105 (- 2.3%)
02/2017: Superman #17 -- 54,561 (- 2.8%)
03/2017: Superman #18 -- 57,879 (+ 6.1%)
03/2017: Superman #19 -- 56,439 (- 2.5%)
04/2017: Superman #20 -- 53,373 (- 5.4%)
04/2017: Superman #21 -- 51,373 (- 3.7%)
05/2017: Superman #22 -- 51,938 (+ 1.1%)
05/2017: Superman #23 -- 51,264 (- 1.3%)
06/2017: Superman #24 -- 50,762 (- 1.3%)
06/2017: Superman #25 -- 50,873 (+ 0.2%)

>>94526565
Shut up anon. I don't know if it's you but you're going to make that one fag post that stale as shit copy pasta about being a teacher and how they know exactly about what makes Spidey succesful.

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>>94526032

>Spider-Man creator Stan Lee praised the storyline and what he perceived as the courage its creators showed in so drastically changing a popular and well-established character. Lee said changes are needed to keep a series fresh and compared the criticism from fans to the backlash Marvel Comics received when Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson married in the first place. The Spider-Man newspaper strip adopted the "One More Day" retcon in its version of "Brand New Day" (along with "The Wedding!", one of just three stories to appear in both the Spider-Man comic book and newspaper strip), but reader reaction to the erasing of Peter and Mary Jane's marriage was so negative that Lee, who writes the strip, opted to conclude the story by revealing that it was in fact a bad dream. As such, Peter remains married to Mary Jane in the newspaper strip continuity.

>>94526643
Stan Lee was also offended by Fury Max, so who cares?

>>94526680

The point was that he defended it but when he tried to do it himself he backed off because he saw that it was going over really badly with readers.

>>94526483
40+ years of character history make it too hard to get into. I picked up DC on the other hand when they started the new 52 because it was an obvious starting point that I needed no prior knowledge of the characters or setting to get into.

>>94526032
you know what?

since Superman got himself a kid it would be a perfect time for Marvel to go back to their roots and copy DC by giving Spider-Man back his family.

>>94526740
I think Spider-Man is pretty new reader-friendly. I mean, my only knowledge of Spider-Man came from a 90s cartoon series and I could jump into JMS run almost flawlessly. Sure I needed occasional explanations here and there, but overall it wasn't very hard to get into.

>>94526805

Renew Your Vows is basically doing what the Lois and Clark mini did. Spider-Man/Deadpool hinted at undoing OMD but didn't actually do it.

It could happen. But Marvel is really fighting against it.

>>94526824
Renew Your Vows isn't Mayday though is it?

So it's not his daughter from 616 that was stolen by Kain, I guess that's not a big deal although it would be nice if they brought her back.

>>94526449
I would've cared about the legacy had Annie-May not been shit. I expect too much from a Slott OC I guess, but Conway should do better with her.
>captcha is CALLE GAYLORD

>>94526838
>slott: welcome to spiderverse, here's mayday and i killed her family!
>defalco: no, it's not really her
>slott: no it totally is, don't worry i un-killed her universe's mj to compensate but peter is still dead

Slott really did a number by actively ruining other spider universes and continuities.

>>94526909
one the many reasons why Spider-Man has just about lost his A status

>>94526824
Brevoort will never allow OMD to be retconned. His business policy is to make people hate read Marvels shit because in is mind having a issue sell for 90k is better than having a steady supply of trades for with a decently written book. This is why he lets Bendis do whatever he wants. Bendis gets to use the spider family within any compacity because Slott is only interested in Peter getting laid by characters like Silk or his shitty OCs. With Bendis we get ships like Spider Gwen and Miles, the likes of which no one fucking likes.

If they ever do a OMD retcon I can see a few storylines that will work.
>Pete dies
>Goes to hell
>Literally has to fight the demons within him and his dead villains
>Trickster gods like Loki\blackheart get involved including that Spider totem god no one liked
>Bring in the original Ghost Rider and Dr strange. Maybe some dead Legacy characters
>Maphisto wins but Aunt May sacrifices herself for Peters happiness
>Explains to Peter that she is the parent and she is the one that should be taking care of him. Not vice versa
>Maphisto throws a hissy fit which sends hell onto a spiral of Chaos
>People escape from hell in the Maelstorm of Maphistos rage
>Allows for a soft reboot like Rebirth with Pete at the center dealing with all the backlash from the mystical forces of Marvel telling him he fucked up on a cosmic level.

But shit like this will never happen.

>>94526909
I seriously hope DeFalco fixes this dumb shit that Slott did up at some point.

>>94526867
>but Conway should do better with her
Regular artist Ryan Stegman being that new to writing comics is equally important.

>>94527201
>OMD creates a universe wide retcon back to when marvel was better

Considering that Mephisto did go back in time and retcon Peter's marriage to MJ he could do the same in restoring it or it being restored by someone else.

>>94526032
>WHY
because the people who created the problem are the ones who are still in charge.
hopefully the next EiC fixes it, but Alonso, is basically a proxie for Quesadilla

>>94527293
Let me get this straight. Alonso is EiC for being a good ball-less yes-man? Explains alot, actually.

>>94527293

Alonso is actually worse. Shitty variants, mishandled events, PR nightmare after PR nightmare, constantly have to take to news or conferences to clear up confusion while having no clear idea of what to do.

>>94527453
Basically. He also lacks imagination. Civil War was big, so since he took charge he's had a bunch of hero vs hero events.

I still think people would have been more accepting of BND if it wasn't Peter sacrificing his true love and unborn child for his ancient aunt(who would have beaten the fuck out of him if she found out he did that, btw)

>>94527677
>I still think people would have been more accepting of BND if it wasn't Peter sacrificing his true love and unborn child for his ancient aunt(who would have beaten the fuck out of him if she found out he did that, btw)
And why the fuck do they felt Peter needed to make the decision? it would have been better for everyone if the bad guys did this and succeeded. Why drag Peter's name through the mud and have Peter being the one responsible?
(And I know they tried to blame his wife, but no one buys that. Not when they are suggesting she would want her unborn child to go away.)

>>94526565
>Because Spider-Man is a HUGE character to give him such a rigid status quo. In all the media (cartoons, movies, toys, comic books, strips), only in one Peter was married. And this married was a comercial stun. So makes sense to keep Spider-Man in a indefinide age, it's easier to promote.
Removing the marriage is fine, removing the marriage via a deal with the Devil isn't.

>>94526032
Qeusadildo takes everything regarding OMD too personally and has too much sway for it to ever go away while he works at Marvel

>>94527718
Or just straight up break up.

>>94527284
Mephisto could be killed or lost all his contracts, making a massive retcon in the whole 616 universe.

It could be in a crossover event where he try to dominate the whole reality.

>>94527950
I'd read it. We just need a cool event title and a tagline.

>>94527950
>>94528284
Call it Devil's Advocate and have him literally be taken to court with She-Hulk on one side and Murdock on the other. Murdock's the defense because he actively refuses cures for his blindness and believes other superheroes should have the same willpower so he believes Mephisto has done nothing wrong - it's the weak willed heroes that are at fault.

>>94528284
Dealbroker- The Cost of Everything

>>94526224
>40 years
They were married for 20, dipshit. And if you think the comics before were leading up to their marriage, you absolutely, definitively know nothing.

The marriage was boring and useless 90% of those twenty years. It was used to put a slap of cheesecake at the end of issues and a damsel in distress that took less setup.
I know you all love the Straczynski era but that was the only time the marriage was actually worth shit as a story element.

>>94526255
Asm came out once a month during the Straczynski era. It was a top selling title- outselling Batman. But the other spider books did not sell nearly as well.
But top books are not as strong as in 2007, even if sales are up. Back then 8 out of ten top ten books had sales over 100k- now we're lucky if two do.

The marriage didn't kill spider-sales. Sorry. It just didn't. What did is changes in the business.

>>94526258
Ryv is fucking garbage. Like poop from a butt.

No one but desperate dipshits thinks it's a gold standard for anything but bad costumes.

>>94526032
this still manage to trigger me.

>>94527718
>>94527677
His nonexistent, potential child that you take as canon even though a: it was Mephisto, not a little girl, and b: even Mephisto doesn't have certain knowledge of the future.
It was Mephisto being a dick, and you fucks will never shut up about this sainted child whose soul was sold... The child never existed. MJ wasn't pregnant. There was no soul, no child, and Peter didn't make a deal for souls.

That story sucks enough without you fucking adding fanfiction to it.

>>94527453
>>94527461
You casuals forget.

Alonso was the editor on the Spider-titles at that time.
He signed off on Sins Past and One More Day. And making Spider-Man into a white tiger ripoff.

>>94528467

>Murdock's the defense because he actively refuses cures for his blindness and believes other superheroes should have the same willpower so he believes Mephisto has done nothing wrong - it's the weak willed heroes that are at fault.

That's fucking retarded.

>>94526255
>>94529529
Well... no.
If you look at the longer-term picture leading up to OMD, the pattern is clear - ASM sells, but the other Spider-Man titles typically don't.

On that basis, switching to double-shipping and killing the other titles was a good move, so that's why that happened.

But OMD and the relaunch as a single unified title (instead of multiple ongoings all telling conflicting stories, especially after Spidey joined the Avengers post-Civil War) was necessary to consolidate the narrative into a single editorial team (and BND storylines, though written by multiple teams, were overseen by a single editorial line). This probably cut down on a lot of the pre-OMD complaints - "how does Spider-Man... are we expected to believe that this radioactive spider-man super-scientist can be in two places at once?"

As far as Mary-Jane and the marriage goes - if you relaunch, you need a hook. Something attention-grabbing. It's not enough that a giant monster threatens the city, or Doc Ock is back, or whatever. You've got to have a hook.

To be honest? MJ didn't do anything. She wasn't really a supporting character; she was barefoot and pregnant: the character. All these faggots saying she was perfect sound like virgins who've never spoken to a woman face to face, or oldfags whose marriages fell apart because they couldn't deal with the other half having a life.

As for sales... go back pre-Civil War and the picture is decidedly less rosy. 2006 was a bumper year for comic books generally - driven by hype around Civil War. Every Marvel title tied into it. Go back to 2005 and yeah, ASM is in the 70k's - but it's behind about a thousand X-Men books, DC books etc. In terms of the sales environment post-Civil War - and by 2007 they already knew the market was contracting again - it made more sense to consolidate. Finally treat MJ and Peter like a real couple - you can't deny her reasoning for leaving him is sound. Ask a cop or firefighter.

>>94529641
>even Mephisto doesn't have certain knowledge of the future.

Certain knowledge of the future is kind of a moot point in an infinite multiverse: there's a universe (in fact an infinitely varied set of them) where that was a little girl... and we're not looking at it, because it's boring as shit.

There was a What If? about Peter and MJ having a kid; it spawned over a hundred issues of a solo series that basically nobody bought at least the last quarter of. If the fans don't want it, it's not going to happen again.

>>94529979
It's not a moot point if the question is "did Peter sell the soul of an unborn child?" being asked by a semi-literate moron who can't keep his headcanon out of already bad books
"There's a universe where he did/didn't!" isn't germane to this.

>>94526142
I think Spider-Man's core appeal was always that it was an evolving story. It never took the easy way out, it rolled with dumb decisions by writers and made the best of them.

I could stomach a rollback to 1986's status quo at this point. It's gotten that bad. We've been dealing with character assassination, story stasis, huge plotholes, stagnation, recycled ideas, fake hype, and scorched earth marketing tactics for a decade. A fucking DECADE. They've already betrayed the "no take-backsies" clause several times and OMD is the back down to end all backbones. Peter has had his characterization completely betrayed in unsalvagable ways. The story has gone nowhere and done nothing since some fans were starting elementary school.

There's no point in pretending to hold on to fake dignity anymore. It's not about the marriage. The only way to salvage the comic is to either roll it back or "progress" until it reaches the stories that were being written 30 years ago again.

>>94526032
They don't have to bring back that shitty marriage.

>>94529936
We mostly agree, you just went into more detail.
One thing we definitely agree on is that the big desperate marriage fans here do not really know their MJ, either as a character or as a story element.

>>94526224
DC did this with a Flashpoint. But I liked it.

>>94526513
>05/2017: Batman #23 -- 96,542 (- 48.3%)
is this the kite man issue?

>>94526740
I started off with the Ultimate Universe and switched from there to 616 after I finished the first 9ish volumes of Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimates 1&2, a bit of Ultimate X Men, and Ultimate Daredevil and Elektra. It gave about the same results as reading a ton of New 52 then switching to Pre Flashpoint DC, there's a bit of adjusting but if you ever watched any of the 90s or early-mid 2000s cartoons it's pretty easy. Plus google exists for any continuity points you're missing

File: 3030948-screen+shot+2013-05-07+at+2.00.30+pm.png (39KB, 1012x345px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 1012x345px

>>94529936
>ASM sells, but the other Spider-Man titles typically don't

Scarlet Spider, Spider-Man Team Up, Spider-Man and the X-Men, etc. It's a constant thing where other Spider books sell like shit. Still is the case. It's weird that even other books with Spidey sells like shit while ASM is always doing really well.

>To be honest? MJ didn't do anything.

She was a supporting character and was utilized very well in the JMS run and even Bendis used her well in New Avengers. She was the tie between Peter and Spider-Man, giving him emotional support to both sides of the character and refusing to leave his side. She doesn't have to be this constant driving force in every story, she was his wife and beacon of hope and she pretty much always gave him a pep talk when he was beating himself up.

>As for sales

ASM has been doing much better before OMD for several years. Yes it does go down to the 70-80k range but it also hit the 90s and 100s fairly often without needing status quo changing events or shock value to trick people into buying it. These are bandages on a gaping wound.

And lets not talk about the biggest problem being Peter's stunted growth. I think a better writer could make Peter into a better character without the marriage but Slott isn't capable of it. So he does things like Superior and Spiderverse and squanders what could be a great premise. Yes they did well in sales but then it ends and everything is swept under the rug. Even now the stuff happening on ASM seems so disconnected from the rest of the comics. Nobody uses webware or even talks about Parker Industries. Spiderverse had a spin off ongoing and that died out fast. I could even go back to Alpha and that had promise but immediately turned into nothing.

Spider-Man has been mismanaged for almost a decade. Something significant needs to happen to save it from falling further.

>>94526680
To be honest, Fur Max was really, really bad. Like Kick ass 2 level of bad.

>>94530606
>but Slott isn't capable of it
That's because Slott never writes characters. He writes caricatures of characters. I've been rereading Paul Jenkins' stories recently and it's amazing how much more vibrant and alive the characterizations were than almost anything that came after OMD.

>>94530606
The problem is that corporate thinks Peter is "iconic" in the same way as Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent and therefore must be distilled for stability. Thing is, those characters are high concept while Peter isn't. You can't explain him in just a paragraph. His appeal is in growth and nuance.

Until you get it through the heads of the guys in upper management that Peter doesn't work unless he changes, assuming you could even convince them as such or they won't desperately cling to nostalgia, the problem won't go away. They might bring back the marriage or undo OMD, but this underlying misunderstanding of the brand is going to kill it.

>>94530801

Slott is just another victim of nuMarvel. The editorial staff is laughable and the culture allows writers to go about with no restraints or accountability. If he was actually worried about his job he'd be compelled to actually be a decent writer again like with She-Hulk, Mighty Avengers, and the Human Torch Spider-Man mini.

>>94530939

Peter was the goose that laid the golden eggs but after Sins Past, OMD, and OMIT they killed the goose and replaced it with a normal goose and painted the normal eggs gold and have fooled people into thinking it's real.

Peter was doing just fine up until OMD. Clone Saga was the first attempt to undo the marriage but it backfired and they still tried and managed to find an even worse way to do it.

If they really wanted a teen Spider-Man they should pry Miles away from Bendis and Waid and actually develop that character.

>>94530606
>she was his wife and beacon of hope and she pretty much always gave him a pep talk when he was beating himself up.

Which was exactly her complaint, and a perfectly reasonable one too. Marriage is two way; you can't spend your whole life relying on someone and never giving back because you gave at the "office".

>ASM has been doing much better before OMD for several years. Yes it does go down to the 70-80k range but it also hit the 90s and 100s fairly often without needing status quo changing events or shock value to trick people into buying it.

No, it didn't. The biggest sales it got in years were the lead up to and tie in with Civil War in 2006/7, as well as the aftermath. But tie-ins don't add those kind of numbers permanently, and the underlying sales were in decline.

Alpha and the rest is no worse than all the other heroes Spider-Man guested in an issue of down the years - the vast majority of them never did better than a series either.

>>94530170
>"There's a universe where he did/didn't!" isn't germane to this.

It's entirely germane to the question of whether the child could have been real, and whether it could have survived.

When you bring in Marvel futures, you're not dealing in time travel but in alternate universes - What Ifs?

> if the question is "did Peter sell the soul of an unborn child?"

Can you name me one example of someone being able to sell another person's soul to the devil? I'm really struggling to understand where you've arrived at this concept - the devil-contract stuff is usually monkey-paw, but the devil himself is bound by the terms and generally abides by them (with threats). In fact the only one I can think of is Magik, whose soul is a patchwork made from stolen pieces of other people's souls. And she - nominally - is a hero. Perhaps your frame of reference is wrong?

At some point in any case you're going to begin arguing "souls" as a pro-life thing, which going to get us into "how can it have a soul if it's just a single cell", since if it doesn't get one immediately, there has to be a cut-off point at which it does and then... we're arguing how many weeks into the pregnancy MJ was, if she was pregnant at all.

Also, how do you know the stress of being around Peter at one of his many shitty points in life didn't cause her to miscarry without Mephisto's intervention? Mephisto would know, but it's not like he'd tell them. Or you.

With OMD/OMiT, there's the additional pogo problem - OMD sets up OMiT, which undoes OMD (or arrives at the same result by different means) so that Mephisto is necessary to set off one version of events, but not ultimately culpable for them.

Ultimate responsibility - explicitly - still rests with Peter and MJ jointly. If there were a child - whether they knew it or not - how is the result any different to seeking a normal termination? Where's the box they initialed on the contract to say "soul of unborn included in marriage sale"?

>>94531199
>2003
>Amazing Spider-Man 49 97,033
>Amazing Spider-Man 50 114,430
>Amazing Spider-Man 51 95,277
>Amazing Spider-Man 52 96,894

>2004
>Amazing Spider-Man 503 (#62) 87,366
>Amazing Spider-Man 504 (#63) 84,041
>Amazing Spider-Man 505 (#64) 83,612
>Amazing Spider-Man 506 (#65) 83,156

>2005
>Amazing Spider-Man 516 79,682
>Amazing Spider-Man 517 78,620
>Amazing Spider-Man 518 76,929
>Amazing Spider-Man 519 78,521

>2006
>Amazing Spider-Man 528 95,383
>Amazing Spider-Man 529 90,381
>Amazing Spider-Man 530 89,863
>Amazing Spider-Man 531 86,885
>Amazing Spider-Man 532 95,508 (start of Civil War)

Looking at 2002 and 2003 the sales were all way up there. 90k to 100k on average. I noticed that during 2005 that a lot of top spots were taken by Ultimate comics.

>>94531213
>Can you name me one example of someone being able to sell another person's soul to the devil?
Can you name me one example of someone being able to sell the abstract concept of their marriage to the devil?

>>94531213
>If there were a child - whether they knew it or not - how is the result any different to seeking a normal termination?
Because most people don't get abortions to save the lives of 70+ year old women that GOD HIMSELF said was fucked.

Peter already made peace with Aunt May dying once. Crumbling to the low of making a deal with not- Satan just because it's linked to personal responsibility is a farce.

>>94531605

Continuing. I won't copy and paste all the stuff but 2007 is post Civil War and ASM is selling at least 100k an issue. Very good stuff.

Then it happens. OMD hits. And... ASM sells pretty well for a while, likely because Brand New Day was a big thing. Then suddenly the sales drop to about 80k and I realize this is when they started triple shipping the comic. And 80k is the average number of sales for the most part in 2008.

And then 2009 starts off with the wildly successful Obama cover but then the sales drop even more. 70k to 50k with one issue selling at the top and the other two selling a lot less.

Oh shit and 2010 is even worse. It rarely even gets 70k and sometimes all three issues are 50k.

So even though ASM started really suffering after OMD and when it started triple shipping, at least those three ASM issues pulled in good numbers. Now you get the same number of sales from just one ASM shipped a month.

It looks like triple shipping cannibalized sales and then that was stopped the sales didn't return until Dying Wish and the start of Superior. To Slott's credit he managed to make sales high consistently from that point until the end of Spiderverse. This current run is easily the weakest run he has done since Superior. But it's not as bad as before Dying Wish.

>>94531213
>Ultimate responsibility - explicitly - still rests with Peter and MJ jointly. If there were a child - whether they knew it or not - how is the result any different to seeking a normal termination?

Is this really the defense you want to go into?