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From a logical standpoint, Goku is currently horrifically more

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From a logical standpoint, Goku is currently horrifically more powerful than a composite Post Crisis and New 52 Superman. He could blow away galaxies without much effort and shatter stars with the shockwave of his punches. In a random encounter, his insane firepower and skill application would be enough to handle any Herald Tier without mindrape.
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>>94141513
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>>94141513
>From a logical standpoint
>logical

Oh yeah?
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>>94141513
Goku is one of the strongest fictional characters ever created in the history of storytelling, but that doesn't change the fact that Big Bald Daddy Saitama can destroy him with a twitch of his penis. Power level shit doesn't matter.
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>>94141513
>From a logical standpoint
But, that's wrong. Unless...he's a puny god
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sckPW9xkJW8
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>>94141696
>He's not even getting a scratch from those attacks
I haven't caught up, is he trying to embarass her or something?
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>>94141759
Watch the youtube video, She walks through SSB Kamehameha like it's a sprinkler.

Goku was legitimately trying fight and then to get away once he realized it wasn't a playful match.
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>>94141759

Nope, and this is before we get her ascended legendary form later on, of which there are already scans.

Dickriding aside, Goku is massively, MASSIVELY outclassed in this fight. He isn't as strong as people claim. The entire overriding message of Super is that Goku isn't as good as the audience thinks he is and he won't swallow his pride.
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>>94141876
>The entire overriding message of Super is that Goku isn't as good as the audience thinks he is and he won't swallow his pride.
No, that message is "Toei can't write Goku for shit"
He's not the hero Funimation's old dub painted him as, not by a longshot, but he's not the sociopath Super depicts.
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This thread again? Listen, it's over. Superman wins. Get over it and move on with your life.
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>>94141921

He's exactly the sociopath Super depicts. Did you forget that he straight up threatened to murder the Supreme Kai for getting in his way?
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Reminder: Superman has shattered dimensions and reality with one punch.

Here's a picture of old (Golden age) Superman doing it easily.

Furthermore OP has no idea what he's talking about.
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So why do /a/utists still care about this tiresome discussion to this day?
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>>94141921
Goku is a danger to the multiverse.
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>>94141513
>From a logical standpoint, Goku is currently horrifically more powerful than a composite Post Crisis and New 52 Superman. He could blow away galaxies without much effort and shatter stars with the shockwave of his punches. In a random encounter, his insane firepower and skill application would be enough to handle any Herald Tier without mindrape.
And yet he jobs to Super Saiyan Dyke and needs to be saved by the true heroes of Dragon Ball Super: The Pride Troopers of the Just and Beautiful Universe 11.
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>>94142209
Earth 2 Superman still kept his pre-crisis power levels.
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>>94142678
Well Goku is apart of the 2nd weakest universe
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>>94142678
>This guy

His eyes freak me out. I thought it was just a weird shading of solid eyes but NOPE.
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>>94142678
Super anime Goku is retarded as fuck.
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>>94141921
>He's not the hero Funimation's old dub painted him as

i find it funny how dub goku was a better character
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https://youtu.be/PQdOFGOsa18
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>>94142678
>Jiren
what were they thinking with that design?
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>>94142904
>walks through SSB Goku's KHH
>gets taken out by a generic attack from Jiren
>Goku will push Jiren to his limits
TOEI are literally fucking hacks.
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>>94142850
>>94142912
He is a Gray alien that got swole.
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>>94142678
i hate how the pride troopers & universe 6 saiyans are more interesting characters and they're probably gonna get erased
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>>94142961
You just know that the writer(s?) is going to pull some bullshit that will restore all the universes so Goku won't end up looking like an even bigger asshole than he already is.
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>>94142958
They should of kept the eyes solid like Jaco. Not giant googly pupils in a mass of dark gray. It's unsettling.
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>>94143037
> pull some bullshit that will restore all the universes

Well you really can't have Goku as the ultimate douche.
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>>94142961
What about the Pride Troopers is interesting to you? Half of them haven't done anything, and the ones that have don't stand out.
The U6 saiyans are not interesting at all.
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>>94142888

Toriyama has, since about the latter half of Z, been continually annoyed by how people assume the Z fighters are better people than they usually are. Toei in the anime and then Funi with the dub softened up Goku to an INSANE degree compared to the manga, and Vegeta being anything resembling a consistent ally rather than a liability that sometimes works in your favor literally did not happen until the very end of Z, if not Super. Saiyan Pride isn't an abstract term so much as it is Goku and Vegeta's defining character flaw. Neither of them were ever intended to really give much of a shit about civilian casualties and almost every instance of them being good people was entirely invented by either the anime or the dub.

That's part of the reason why Goku has been more and more careless culminating in this arc, Toriyama has kept having to explain this entire time since like Raditz that no, Goku isn't a hero looking for justice, and no, he doesn't really care all that much. That was supposed to be adult Gohan's character arc and why he became Saiyaman, and why he fell for Videl, back when she actually used to fight evil herself solo.

But that's the thing, Goku fans would rather cling to a version of their character that was literally never real than they would read about the character that had those traits.
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>>94143169

The DBZ fandom mostly just cares about power levels and forms. Even to this day their entire idea of which character is good or not revolves around how hard that person can punch. Even right now people's defense of Tien as a character doesn't revolve around his Dojo or his development, but around the idea that the Kikoho is really strong and he managed to slow down the arc villains for a bit. You can say the same for Krillin, or Buu, or basically anybody.

When Super was first announced every single fan channel was talking about how they hoped this would be the REAL DBZ they always imagined which was even more serious and action packed despite this whole thing beginning as a gag series and Toriyama is almost exclusively known as a gag artist. The fact that it wound up even more comedic than Z, and Toriyama blatantly lifting some gags from the abridged series despite them making no real sense in context, has people more mad than the shit animation.
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>>94143774

>Toriyama blatantly lifting some gags from the abridged series

Holy shit, what? Source?
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>>94143774
>Toriyama blatantly lifting some gags from the abridged series
Like what?
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>>94141696
>they actually made a rule 63 Broly

For fuck sake...
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>>94143663

All of Goku's arc in OG Dragonball disagrees with your post friendo
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>>94143828
>>94143812

When Vegeta goes into the time chamber Popo is more authoritarian than he is previously, and uses the exact same style of extreme closeup that gets abused in DBZA. Actual DBZ popo is way more mellow, and by that point is so far below the main characters in power that he could never back a threat like that, hence the joke in the abridged, since that's as out of character for him as something like Nappa being an annoying comedy character.

Which is why it doesn't work in Super. Vegeta totally ignores the ultimatum and wrecks the lookout anyway. There's no real point to the gag unless you take it as "here's a popular gag from the internet, lets use it to fill time".
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>>94141513

Yet he still cannot lift 1000 tons, Glass cannon anyone?
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>>94141513
>Composite Post-Crisis and New 52 Superman

I don't think you understand how that shit works. They were originally the same, they got split by someone (presumably Manhattan). He was made whole again as he was before the reboot.

That "composite Superman" you're talking about is just Superman immediatly before Flashpoint.
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>>94143843
Different universe where the saiyans aren't going extinct and are actually helpful to others.
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>>94143663
It wasn't that exaggerated anyway. In Super they took the concept of "Goku not caring about justice" to ridiculous levels and made him stupid. They made him a caricature of himself.
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>>94143895
That seems like grasping straws.
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>>94143037
>You just know that the writer(s?) is going to pull some bullshit that will restore all the universes

Uh, doesn't the winner of the tourny get a wish from the Super Balls? It's pretty fucking obvious the wish is gonna be "restore all of the universes plz".
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>>94143846

Yeah, but Toriyama didn't exactly plan ahead, since Toriyama NEVER plans ahead. That's the take he gave for adult Goku, which was about the time he actually started writing hits about aliens and shit, waaaay at the end of OG Dragonball.

It's wildly out of character for kid Goku, but then so is half the shit in Z for that exact reason.

Shit, if it was adult Goku in OG dragonball can you imagine how fucking ridiculous that'd be? He'd probably try sparing Blue and Tao and every other general he never bothered with in the Red Ribbon army. Shit, he'd probably have tried pulling the same shit with some of Piccolo's demons. Kid Goku didn't exactly kill Tien or Yamcha, but that's because he wasn't at full strength against Yamcha and he was fighting Tien in a tournament.
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>>94143937

Again, Majin Vegeta killed 200 people in front of him and their fight was about to resurrect Buu. When Supreme Kai tried to explain that to Goku, Goku threatened to murder him since he was going to fight Vegeta anyway.

Goku has been a caricature of himself since that point at bare minimum.
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>>94143906
Magetta is powerful as fuck man. He weighs a 1000 tons but also has a lot of ki backing him up. It's like Superman. Superman doesn't weigh a billion tons, probably just 200-250 lbs, but when he doesn't want to be moved he wont.
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>>94143846
Goku never cared about justice in the broader sense of the world. He do cares about his friends and wants revenge if something happens to them. That's what happened with the Red Ribbon Army, that's what happened with Piccolo and that's what happened in the following arcs of the manga (Z in the anime)
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>>94143995
In the case of the RRA, Tao killed Upa's father, and then Goku beat Tao and figured out that the RRA would keep coming for him and his friends and decided to go for them instead. He just ends up saving the world by extension.
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>>94144025

It's the same shit with Piccolo. If they never killed Krillin Goku would never have cared.
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>>94143981
Goku just takes for granted that the Dragon Balls will revive everyone anyway. He's that kind of fool. But Super takes it to another level.
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>everyone always seems to forget Goku is literally retarded

I mean, what do you think happens when a toddler cracks his fuckin' head open on a rock? He's just gonna be normal? Fuck no, thats why he's both a moron and also so strong when he gets mad.

Boy's got the retard strength.
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>>94141513
Manga Goku is probably more powerful than New 52 Superman. Anime Goku is a retarded jobber.
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>>94144042
I still remember the shock I felt when I saw Krillin's first death. It was the first real dark turn in the series, completely unexpected IMO. And when Piccolo destroyed the Dragon Balls I think it was the only time I really felt everything was completely hopeless in the whole series. I don't think I've ever felt that way about Dragon Ball ever again, even in the Saiyan saga you can see the Namek arc coming from a mile away when Vegeta mentions the possibility of another set of Dragon Balls existing in Piccolo's home planet, thus robbing the arc of the sense of hopelessness the original Piccolo arc had.
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>>94144083
Wasn't manga Vegeto threatened by having metal cubes thrown at him? They can be as hard as they want but unless when they hit the planet they go out the other side they're not moving that fast.

Also manga super saiyans can't lift 2000 tons whear as Superman is barely strained by 5.72 sextillion tons.
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>>94144143

To be fair base form Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku was on Namek, post Z. Once you take into account multipliers Goku is many times stronger than that.

The problem is DB was already super generous to Goku just to underline how fucking vast the gulf is. Even blue goku with a x20 kaio ken isn't really that close.
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>>94144143
>Wasn't manga Vegeto threatened by having metal cubes thrown at him? They can be as hard as they want but unless when they hit the planet they go out the other side they're not moving that fast.
Meh, base Goku got hit by a few of them in base form and he just got a bit hurt. Vegito was about to shoot a full power final kamehameha and probably didn't want to lose concentration, so he just dodged them instead. It's not like Katchin is that threatening past SSJ, at least going by the anime where a superior version of it is effortlessly destroyed by jobbers as weak as krillin smashing through it.

>Also manga super saiyans can't lift 2000 tons whear as Superman is barely strained by 5.72 sextillion tons.
>>94143993
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>>94144120
Majin Buu had one good moment, kid Buu brutally beating Vegeta while Goku loads the spirit bomb was somehow a big hero moment, crowning moment of character arc culmination and a hopeless moment for the viewer.

I know that not many enjoy the Buu arc due to Toriyama cornering himself with the power levels but the climax was OK.

Also at this point Toei cares more about Cake PreCure than DBS.
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>>94142678
Based ayylmao
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>>94144204
I'd say the Final Explosion was the best moment in the Buu Saga, but it was severely undercut by accomplishing absolutely nothing.
My main issue with the Buu Saga was that Toriyama had so many different ideas for Buu that end up being scrapped and later slapped back together.
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But does Majin Buu's penis have steam-shooting holes along the shaft?
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>>94141513
The thing is, Goku is absolutely harmless in the grand scheme of things. Until someone shows up on his doorstep to fight, he's happy to stick with training and farming.

If he ever gets into a fight, it'll only be because his opponent's strength intrigues him. At most, he'll badger the person until they relent and fight him, but he'll never attack unprovoked. When they do fight, he'll fight at minimum power for as long as he can afford to, and is actually conscious enough of his surroundings to not go full blast where others might get caught up in it.

Meanwhile everyone on this board makes him sound like this primal force of nature who opens every fight with a max power energy blast that blows up half the galaxy.
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GOKU FUEL CAN'T MELT STEEL BODIES
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>>94141696
So I get they're not going SSB early to save their strength, but why isn't Android 17 just blitzing through everyone? He fought SSB Goku while holding back and doesn't run out of energy.
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>>94144054

No he doesn't and no they don't. None of the Namekians killed by Vegeta were brought back and nobody brought it up after. I'd go so far as to say none of the people Vegeta killed in the android saga fell under that wish either since it only covered people killed by Androids.

Vegeta can and has killed, and permanently killed, a shit ton of people with no repercussions. They were going to use the dragon balls THAT TIME, but lets not pretend it was ever a deal breaker.
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>>94145499

These people are tanking hits like that and not dying, the gulf in power isn't that great. The three dogs were from the lowest of the low universe and still tanked a big bang kamehameha.

17 is winning, but he isn't winning by enough to just one punch every other person he comes across.
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>>94141523
FPBP
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>>94141513
Isn't it backwards with Super where the manga canon doesn't supersede the anime canon?
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>>94141921

>not a sociopath
>only actively ever got involved when a fight was involved

The closest thing to heroic that Goku EVER did in DB was intervene with the Red Ribbon Army and all THEY had to do was give Goku the dragonballs and let him bring back Upa's father.

Goku isn't an avenger. He's a fight monkey. Gohan was the hero since he acted for friends and family. Goku's only act of vengeance in all of DB was against Tambourine after he ganked Krillen.

He is pretty much a self serving sociopath, as noted by both Piccolo AND Vegeta, both of whom are also fight monkeys but willing to act in the defense of others no matter the event.
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>>94141921
>but he's not the sociopath Super depicts

>literally had Cell on the ropes
>"I'm pretty strong huh? But you know what? My son is stronger! Don't believe me? Here, heal up and test him out for yourself!"
>Hey Krillin, don't kill that guy that basically commanded the deaths of Yamcha, Chaotzu, and Tien, not to mention the countless humans that Nappa killed while you guys were waiting for me to get here. He's bretty gud to scrap with and I'm sure it will be fun to fight him again in the future!

Sociopath is underselling how fucked in the head he is.
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>>94143961

No. OG kid Goku was also passive as fuck.

The only time he acted in vengeance and justice was Piccolo Daimao, where his best friend got ganked by Tambourine. Otherwise he gave no fucks as shown when Piccolo effectively wiped out an entire tournament of people in a huge explosion and Goku still let him go.

He's selfish as fuck throughout ALL of Dragonball from OG to Super.

He's never had a character arc. He's just Goku and the people thinking otherwise are just mixing the dub version with the anime with the manga and getting confused.

The first antagonist was the Red Ribbon army. Goku gave no fucks about the people they'd hurt . He simply wanted the balls to bring back Upa.

He let Tao try to escape after he'd ganked his friend's father.
He wasn't aiming to kill Blue after he'd beat the shit out of Krillen.
He was willing to let White go until 8 slapped him after Goku stopped him being blown up.
He would have been happy to just be given the dragonballs by everyone else.

The only villains that Goku actively pursued in vengeance was Tambourine and Piccolo, because they negatively affected his life by killing his friends.

He let Piccolo Jr go for the challenge.
He let Raditz go after he lied.
He let Nappa go after he crippled him even tho Nappa killed Tien.
He let Vegeta go after he almost destroyed the world.
He let the ENTIRE Ginyu force go even tho they were professional genociders.
He let Frieza go and regretted killing him despite Frieza having billions of innocents worth of blood on his hands.
He was willing to forgive Vegeta after 10 minutes earlier, Vegeta killed hundreds of innocents to prompt Goku to fight.
He was willing to let Buu go after Satan 'tamed' him.

Goku is a fucking retard of the highest order and about as heroic as any anti-villain. He acts entirely selfishly and Super maintains that. He's definitely flanderised but he's not exactly out of character, just more distilled than the past series.
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>>94145776
>He let the ENTIRE Ginyu force go even tho they were professional genociders.

Now now, be fair. Some of the Ginyu force were already dead by the time he got there.
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>>94145820
Only Guildo.

Everyone else was alive and healthy. Vegeta took the right path and killed them after they were unconscious because he knew they'd get back up and attack right away.

The disparity of Goku and Vegeta is Vegeta is the stereotypical saiyan while Goku is the brain damaged saiyan who acts out of character.

At least until we got Dragonball Minus and it's shitty 'Goku's mother was just a nice girl' shit.
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>Goku shows up to challenge Superman
>it's a huge cosmic battle where both combatants are bloody and beaten
>planets are tossed around, kamehamas are thrown, laservision is used
>in the end Goku beats Superman
>flies back to earth and dumps the defeated man of steel on the shattered pavement
>"I've finally proven, I am the strongest and best fighter there is!"
>suddenly familiar theme song
>1966 Batman and Robin jump into view
>Goku assumes it's a new challenge, and charges in at ultra-speed
>Batman pulls out a can and sprays Goku in the face
>Goku collapses, defeated
>"Holy hoodwinks Batman, you beat him without throwing a punch."
>"Indeed I did, Robin. For this spiky-haired scallawag didn't count on the fact that I was carrying my trusty anti-saiyajin spray in my utility belt."
>"Good thinking, Batman."
>"And that's the lesson, Robin. It's better to think with your brain than with your fists."
>"Golly Batman, that's a good philosophy. I do kinda wonder what I'd look like with spiky golden hair, though."
>"Maybe when you're older, chum."
>End credit music plays.
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>>94145776
>The first antagonist was the Red Ribbon army.
Pilaf says hello.
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>>94145776
>He let Piccolo Jr go for the challenge.
and now piccolo is good
>He let Raditz go after he lied.
cause he tried to give his brother a chance
>He let Nappa go after he crippled him even tho Nappa killed Tien.
he doesn't kill a defeated man
>He let Vegeta go after he almost destroyed the world.
and now he is good
>He let the ENTIRE Ginyu force go even tho they were professional genociders.
he doesn't know there history so to me its more. i beat you fuck off
>He let Frieza go and regretted killing him despite Frieza having billions of innocents worth of blood on his hands.
we know his past villains turned good. maybe he believed freiza would change
>He was willing to forgive Vegeta after 10 minutes earlier, Vegeta killed hundreds of innocents to prompt Goku to fight.
repeated yourself
>He was willing to let Buu go after Satan 'tamed' him.
and buu is evil.
all you really proved is that goku lets bad guys go which then causes them to turn good.
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>dubfags trying to push their fanfiction version of goku as canon
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>>94145564
Every universe has their krillins and piccolos, they're not all on par with Goku. The dogs were only a threat because they triple teamed base form goku, and the rest of their team was weaker than them. Also, mortal power=/=strength of fighters
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>>94146359
>repeated yourself
This was in the Buu saga, you fucking idiot. Why would Goku have any reason to believe that he would change?
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>>94145776
>Otherwise he gave no fucks as shown when Piccolo effectively wiped out an entire tournament of people in a huge explosion and Goku still let him go.

Just going to ignore the fact he let Piccolo go because if he killed him Kami would die with the dragon balls? or that using the mufuba would result in one of his friends dying? The fact piccolo made a good sparring partner was just a bonus for Goku.

>He's never had a character arc. He's just
Goku and the people thinking otherwise are just mixing the dub version with the anime with the manga and getting confused.

He did have an arc in Dragon Ball, from being a naive country bumkin kid to being a slightly wiser, kinder country bumkin who really loved fighting, its not much of an arc but he definitely grows as a character. Of course like you said Z and super flanderised that with having Goku spare everyone for nearly no reason at all and try to fight everyone with two hands also for no good reason, which was never a part of his character originally.
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Wtf I hate Goku now
>me unironically
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>>94141513
Logic and goku do not mix

on side note, with the synderfag defence thread and this weebtrash thread, what's with the anti-superman fagtards today
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>>94142038
Vegeta just murdered hundreds of people in front of him, who the fuck gives a fuck about Supreme faggot??
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>>94141660
I enjoy the gimmick of OPM so fucking much, and how he completely shatters the whole "Could anyone beat X" question. The spirit of Saitama's character is completely based on being able to defeat anyone with a single punch, so a Saitama that couldn't do that defeats the purpose of invoking Saitama. By allowing him to occupy the same universe as his opponent, he's already won. I'm never going to get tired of the idea of Goku, Superman, The Hulk, etc. throwing a punch and having it graze off his dome like nothing.
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>>94145940
anyone else like west batman's anti - x spray over meme batgod's prep time./plans?

both have insane amounts of preparation but one is more user friendly (rather than having to memorize shit to do against x)
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>>94148972
Saitama is suffering though. He wants to have a real fight but never can. Thats the other funny bit of this character. That way even when he wins, he loses.
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>>94141513
technically he was strong enough to blow up a planet with minimal effort after his initial training with King Kai considering that Vegeta could without using full power

since then both have become infinitely more powerful with base power, even moreso with the various Super forms and Kaio-Ken
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>>94145385
>Goku's actually harmless in the grand scheme of things
He actually is responsible for the destruction of a universe as of 3 episodes ago in Super.
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you know...goku could prove to be actually good for superman.
having a challenger that can actually get close to his strength will do good to his psyche and emotional state.
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>>94141513
>Goku is currently horrifically more powerful than a composite Post Crisis and New 52 Superman
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>>94146049
Pilaf was never really an antagonist or even and obstacle. More like a speed bump.
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>>94141513
fuck off!
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>>94143993
And where was that explained in the manga, where this epic lift fail happened? Because if it wasn't, this is just fan theory to cover up how weak DB characters are.
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>>94141513
>more powerful than a composite Post Crisis and New 52 Superman
Yeah sure kid
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Goku in his base form couldn't even hurt a guy who's skin was made of fucking Iron. I don't want to hear this "Goku is more powerful than x and y Superman" ever again after that shit. Goku can't even survive in the vacuum of space. Meanwhile, Superman fucks off to the sun almost daily like as if he's talking a walk around town. Fuck off.
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