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> Dude, so he's like a super-genius, the smartest villain

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> Dude, so he's like a super-genius, the smartest villain ever
> And he's also an unbeatable wizard!
> And he has his own nation, where everyone loves him, because he's so great and perfect.
> In fact, he's so great, that if he rules the world, everything would be perfect and apocalypse would be prevented.
> As confirmed my an omniscient god!
> Oh, and he never loses! Ever! And if he does, it was just a robot pretending to be him!

What a great character. You know, the more I learn about Doom, the more I realize why Ditko had him beaten and humiliated by Squirrel Girl.
>>
>>90516238
welcome to the waking world.
>>
OP is a nigger. A salty nigger. A salty baby nigger.
>>
>Missing the point that he's pretty much perfect and still will never be satisfied and will forever hate himself and everyone else around him
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>>90516335
The fact that he's angsty makes things even worse.
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>>90516238
>> In fact, he's so great, that if he rules the world, everything would be perfect and apocalypse would be prevented.
>> As confirmed my an omniscient god!
That part is retarded Doomwankery. The rest is just standard cape comic fare and fun.
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>>90516382
>nyaaaa characters can't have troubled personalities and internal turmoil that's edgy shit for teens humans are very simple and not complex at all irl !!!1!
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>>90516471
This is not what was said, and you know it. You can be troubled without being an angsty caricature.
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>>90516238
>He's also Hyper-intelligent
>while also being Latverian!
Literally impossible for them.
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It's funny how he hates everyone and is always brooding and evil, but is total bros with a few other FF villains.
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Superior Foes had a weird amount of fun with Doom.
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>>90517801
Unreliable narrators allow for a lot of stuff.
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>>90517801
I loved Doom in Superior Foes
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>>90517720
>Namor
>Villain
>>
>>90516238
Not too long ago I made a thread talking about this. The responses were ridiculous.

"H-how is he perfect if the world isn't his yet? Checkmate!"

or

"B-but he is never satisfied with his perfection, therefore he isn't perfect. Gotcha!"

I really would like to see Doom getting his ass whooped by Ben Grimm. First, because this is the best part of ALL FF canon, and second because Doomfags would DIE seeing such thing and with their deaths the world would be smarter on the average.
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>>90520053
>Doomfags would DIE seeing such thing
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>>90520053
hasn't that already happened a billion times?
also, Ultimate Ben literally killed Ultimate Doom with his bare hands
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>>90520218
9/10 of this billion times ended up being retconned as "I-it was just a Doombot" though.
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>>90516578
He isn't, he literally is never shown being angsty, we are the ones who have to put that together.
He's never shown moaning and being sad, he just acknowledges "well, now I have the entire world, what the fuck do I do?"
Stop projecting on the character.
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>>90520053
>DOOM's character flaws don't count because I don't like DOOM
>>
>>90520053
Doomfags don't give a shit, m8. The character is always interesting, doesn't matter who he jobs to. He's been jobing since the 60's.
If you want to generate butthurt go after Batfags or Supefags.
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>>90520276
As I recall, Ben broke Doom's hands in a rage back in the '60s.
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>>90520584
I know

>this is the best part of ALL FF canon

In fact, the best part of Doom canon, too.
>>
>>90516238
Yeah, Doomwankery has made him pretty uninteresting as a character.

Like, Genius dictator supervillain? That's probably enough.

But Marvel kept letting people who were super duper into Doom write him, and suddenly he's a better magician than Doctor Strange and only gets beaten by his own low self esteem, which is bad because he'd totally solve all the world's problems.
>>
How do you fix DOOM for modern comics without making him into a joke character? An impossibly vain turbo-autist villain who speaks in the third-person would be hard to take seriously without some liberties being taken.
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>>90516238

Even if Doom had to concede in the end to Reed, the Doomwank was off the charts for this. The fact he lost to the Beyonders but somehow beat them anyway was ridiculous.
>>
>>90520851
>and suddenly he's a better magician than Doctor Strange

This obviously is the thread for people that don't read comics.
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>>90516471
You say that like it's ironic.
>>
>>90516238
Reed, why are you on 4chan? Are you drunk?
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>>90520958
Or people being hyperbolic because Doomfans actually push that nonsense. (And because Strange's default mode since Bendis got to him has been "nerfed hard")
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>>90520870
>An impossibly vain turbo-autist villain who speaks in the third-person would be hard to take seriously
No more so than a chubby egomaniac with extra robot arms, a literal nazi with a skull face, or a man who's motivation is that he's angry that his arch nemesis made him go bald.
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>>90520584

I'm a Doomfag, I think he's a great villain. I have ZERO issue with Ben breaking his hands or kicking his ass.

The mere fucking mention of Reed makes Doom lose his shit. I like Doom because of his attitude. I like his arrogance, and I like the fact that he's this wildly competent person who could do anything he wants but will never get what he really wants.

The only true victory Doom has ever had was in Triumph and Torment.
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>>90521187
Same.
They are talking like we are Batfags that will never accept his defeat in any way whatsoever and will argue forever about it so he comes out on top.
I doubt most Doomfags even care is he's humiliated and globbered.
But I also consider his victory delivering Reed's daughter.
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>>90518290
>implying """"heroes""""" antagonizing each other constantly doesn't make them all villains
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>>90521297
>They are talking like we are Batfags that will never accept his defeat in any way whatsoever and will argue forever about it so he comes out on top.
Literally what always happens.

And it is worse now that Doomfags are writing Doom. If he loses, or it is retconed to a Doombot or it has a twist that somehow puts him on top.
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>>90521297
>They are talking like we are Batfags that will never accept his defeat in any way whatsoever and will argue forever about it so he comes out on top.

I am also a Batfag. But liking a character doesn't mean I can't see that character defeated. One of my favorite characters is Daredevil, and Daredevil comics are basically just Matt living a miserable life.

>But I also consider his victory delivering Reed's daughter.
True, forgot about that. And DOOM probably cares more about that than saving his mother's soul because he got to Spite Reed.
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>>90521426
Meh, last story I read with Doom is when he is killed by Celestials.
I don't care much about the current affairs of capeshit.
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>>90516238
Always second best.
Gets ultimate power every time, gets his ass kicked every time somehow.
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>>90516238
Squirrel Girl beat Doom?
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>>90525239
That was literally her first appearance
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>>90525259
I don't know anything about her except that she beat Thanos and was in the GLA and left
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>>90516238
>Oh, and he never loses! Ever!
>(but in the same post)
>beaten and humiliated by Squirrel Girl.
Are you LITERALLY retarded?
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>>90516238
Why do we have this thread every fucking week, and why, when people point out that Doom loses every time, do you then pretend that it's a Doombot? Are you the Doomfag who can't accept that he loses constantly?
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>>90516238
>> Oh, and he never loses! Ever! And if he does, it was just a robot pretending to be him!
Well yeah. That's how he can perpetuate the idea that he's invincible, they went over this in Loki: Agent of Asgard. As long as people believe it's a Doombot, then it is a Doombot. Any victory against Doom then becomes "Whew, I beat the Doombot but the REAL Doom is still out there!"
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>>90516238
Doom is only good when he is written like Team Rocket.
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>>90516238
>Oh, and he never loses! Ever!

Yeah. That's really annoying.
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>>90520920
Doom pretty much went Alluha Ackbar on them and used their own bombs against them.

Like it was kinda genius and kinda dumb.

>Build time machine and load it with multiple universe destroying bombs
>Bombs explode all through time
>Beyonders blow up bombs before it gets to them, but wait because time travel the bombs did actually manage to reach them
>And the bombs also killed 100k+ universes
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>>90525519
I really loved silly things like this
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>>90525591
>>And the bombs also killed 100k+ universes
Just like in my chinese cartoons.
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>>90525676
why would thanos use a plane
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>>90526450
Why would Flash use a car? Why would Wonder Woman use a plane?
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>>90526450
It's a helicopter.
A helicopter that he SPECIFICALLY had "THANOS" written on the side.
By him? By a third party contractor? Did he pay them?
These are the mysteries we are left with.
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>>90516238
Read some thing with Doom in it recently where he kind of hinted that sometimes he actually does suffer humiliating defeats but everyone always assumes it must've just been a Doombot. Can't remember the book unfortunately.
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>>90525285
This
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>>90525676
I bet the can find a way to sneak this into the MCEU.
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>>90525591
If I'm not mistaken there were only 12 universes left and everything was going to shit, so in the end, he did the right thing... maybe?
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>>90517720
>Doom's face
>EWW IT TOUCHED ME
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>>90520218
That was retconned because it was retarded garbage by Loeb.
Not even a Doomfag, it just contradicts everything about Ultimate Doom and deserved to be retconned.
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>>90516238
Everyone does realize that Doom was orginally written as an antagonist, right? The way so that a hero that opposes him questions his belief and comes up stronger.

The same way how original Peter Parker was written as a poor guy with continuous bad luck, struggling through life.

Today's Marvel's writers just keep tearing down the basic formula and the paradigm why the original characters were such success. Today they don't really struggle with their inner demons or with life, they're all fashion stars, wealthy and famous, run successful companies or rebuild them in a day if destroyed. Being a hero just means declaring themselves as one and then ignoring all laws, beating up someone and destroying property randomly, suffering no significant repercussions because of actions taken and feeling good about themselves for all the "good" they've done with the world.

I'm sure that all villians suffer from PTSD at this point.
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>>90516238
My main issue isn't that he's really good at most shit, it's that he's often also shown to be a 'good' ruler.

I like it when his narcissism means that he can run a country efficiently on paper but only by being a horrendous dictator.
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>>90525519
Goofy Doom is best Doom.
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>>90516238
Replace Doom with Thanos and you have Jim Starlin.
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>>90516238
He was beaten and humiliated the day he was made a primary foe of the Fantastic Four.
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>>90516471
Are you retarded? because there's nothing complex about it. It's just childish and probably something I would've come up at 12
>So, my character is the smartest, strongest character there is. He is a genius inventor and, get this, A MASTER MAGICIAN! He is also an an amazing dictator... oh but the people love him.
>but dude, doesn't he have any flaws?
>Uhm, uhh... flaws? Oh... Oh yeah! Well, he's such perfectionist that his own drive to be the best like no one ever was sometimes causes his downfall. You see, he is always right but he doubts himself a little so that is why he isn't ruling the entire world.
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>>90516238
>where everyone loves him

He's an absolute monster. Try reading the comics.
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>>90520053
I never see people complain about that time Luke Cage kicked his ass.
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>>90527868
His devoted subjects actually dance in the streets at the merest mention of his name.
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Obligatory DOOM reading list
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>>90517720
>Namor and Doom
>bros
>>
>>90526450
Chicks dig pilots.
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>>90529445
Shouldn't Secret Wars be on there, the 2015 one?
>>
Doom is a fucking PUNK.

Everyone talks about how horrible a villain he is, yet every damn one of his reads, at least the ones that I've seen or been suggested to see by /co/, depict him as more of a fucking antihero than an actual villain.

Joker -- Killed Jason Todd, paralyzed Barbara, killed Sarah, etc.

Magneto -- Ripped Wolverine's fucking skeleton out

Green Goblin -- Killed Gwen Stacy, all of the psychological damage to his own fucking son

Doom -- The nigga delivered Reed Richards' child.

His big "act of villainy" there was just NAMING THE GIRL. Sure, you can toss out the whole "oh well he was proving that he could do something that Richards couldn't, he could help his family when Richards could not", or the bs "Oh well he's a classy motherfucker dohoho/he's an honorable villain" crap out there, but when it comes down to it, Doom hasn't done SHIT.

That all being said, Doom crying at 9/11 wasn't any sort of break in character or anything to me. Hell, I would even go as far to say that it was entirely IN character.
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>>90529482
Dude, everyone who knows Namor thinks the same thing, this isn't just a Doom or even Villian thing.
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>>90516238
Doom is best comic book villain. Period.
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>>90516578
So where does the line lie? I'm pretty sure someone could call some of your favourite characters angsty caricatures. Pretty much every character with an internal conflict can be called that.
>>
Doom is not perfect, he's motivated by envy and hate. He was a real supervillain, not an antihero. Latverians hated him and he wanted to enslave all earth. Also, he was constantly beaten, ben broke his fingers in a fight once.
Its modern fans and writers that pretend he's actually a hero and never wrong. Its just awful.
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>>90529838
Yeah, and Electro used to throw semi-solid yellow lightning bolts instead of shooting actual electricity. Any more now-irrelevant 60s comic book shit you want us to know about? There's nothing bad in changing some outdated traits of the character .
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>>90527840
what is complex then?
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>>90529660
by that logic, could I write a story about a villain who kills everybody and rapes all the universes, and that villain will be the best villain ever? because you seem to rate villains not by their character development and depth, but by "their bad deeds"
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>>90530047
How is being a dictator outdated?
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>>90530196
comic books aren't that primitive of a medium these days for a villain to be a simple cliched dictator.
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>>90530222
And Doomwankery made the medium less primitive? It is worse now if anything.
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>>90516238
Doom loses all the fucking time to a guy named after his ability to make his penis grow.
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>>90530047
60's Doom is all around a better character than modern "Can do no wrong" Doom. This is not an opinion, this is a fact.
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>>90530401
>This is not an opinion, this is a fact.
Interesting opinion.
>>
>>90530047
He was that way until the end of the 80s
Casuals should be banned from existence
Doom threads suck so much, thanks Hickman
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>>90530306
what would you prefer then?
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>>90530505
FACT. But Doomfags are well-known illiterates.
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>>90530565
NO wankery would be good, huh? Who the fuck prefers wankery?
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>>90530565
Consistent characterization
Continuity
Character development
Flawed complicated characters
Not something waid, JMS, Millar, hickman, fraction or casuals understand.
>>
>>90530625
you're not really making any points, you just keep saying that whatever you were stating is a fact.
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>>90530664
I dunno, you're the one who sees a character get attention and call it wankery.
>>90530703
why are you reading capeshit then? it's being written by dozens of different people. of course everything you listed isn't going to be present (except for the last one, I still don't see a line between flawed complicated characters and 'angsty' 'non-complicated' ones).
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>>90530752
A flawed a consistent character that is constantly developing like 60-80s doom is better than the perfect modern doom that changes completely with every writer and has no depth or development.
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>>90530703
>Consistent characterization
>Continuity
It's mainstream comic books, anon. You're looking in the wrong place for those things.
>Character development
There's plenty of that in individual runs. For longer term stuff, see above.
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>>90530806
Until the 90s marvel had those things. Differents writers are no excuse.
Continuity is the main appeal to read big two for me, is what indies doesn't have.
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>>90530821
>that changes completely with every writer and has no depth or development.
Are you saying this doesn't apply to literally every cape character?
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>>90530852
>Until the 90s marvel had those things. Differents writers are no excuse
>delusion
>>
>>90530806
>I dunno, you're the one who sees a character get attention and call it wankery.
If even a GOD bow his knees to state how fucking perfect a character is and how he can do no wrong, then it is wankery.
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>>90530891
but then a character still loses so it's not
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>>90530878
Im not saying they were all great comics, but they had continuity and consistency.
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>>90530929
Sometimes. And other times they didn't.

Ultimately, continuity between dozens of titles across 50 years is literally impossible, and even moreso when you consider the fact that the same characters are being written about the entire time without anything but the slightest bit of aging.
>>
>>90530921
Man, are you Doomfags retarded or something?

Your ONLY defense for author's pet Doom is "well, he loses every now and then, therefore he isn't perfect". This isn't even a good argument to begin with.
>>
>>90530752
60's Doom was a dictator written as a dictator whose biggest flaw was that his capabilities would never match his ego. He thought of himself as being perfect and the best at everything, but he simply wasn't. Put he and a New Yorker pugilist made of rock in a cage match, and Doom would lose 10 times of 10, and this would kill him inside.

Modern Doom is a lovable ruler NEVER written like one in context because his writers aren't good enough to actually write it, whose biggest flaw is that, deep down, he has insecurities (ooooh). He IS perfect, but his insecurity with his own perfection keep him from actually do something meaningful. He can fuck with a group of omnipotent beings, Gods suck his perfect cock at any given opportunity and an army of writers are always ready to retcon his losses. How interestinzzzZZZzzzZZZzz.
>>
>>90529660
Doom took over the world, ran it better and did all the shit he said he would if he took over the world. And then reset it because it was boring.

I'm 99% sure every time he jobbed after that he was happy that he had people to fight again.
>>
>>90531044
>This isn't even a good argument to begin with.
why?
>>
>>90526450
Why WOULDN'T he?
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>>90526575
There were a lot more universes left before he set the bombs off. But if the Beyonders weren't eliminated, they would have destroyed everything even if Molecule Man was disarmed and the Incursion chain reaction stopped.
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>>90520453
tfw being to perfect isn't a flaw
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>>90531645
Ruling the world using mind control is easy mode, though. Everyone just does what you say, so there is zero crime and you have an automatic 100% approval rating.
>>
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>Second smartest man on Earth, constantly outdone by his hated rival
>Second best magician as he spent years ignoring his families heritage
>Constant chip on his shoulder regarding both, as he believes himself above both Richards and Strange
>Especially considering he blames his own failings of saving his Mother on Richards sabotaging his work
>Even when he becomes God, instead of being absolved by power his own pettiness and self doubt prevent him from being the perfect leader he envisions himself as

Doom's great
>>
>>90516238
He is so butthurt that Moongirl is smarter than him. It's hilarious
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>>90520870
That would require a completely new continuity. Too much damage has been done by Doomwankers to go back in the regular continuity.

First and foremost, run with Stan Lee's idea for what was wrong with Doom's face: nothing. Just a small scar that his narcissism and Asperger's have inflated into grotesque disfigurement.
Second, have him always be the gracious, gentlemanly sort... except when anyone goes against what he wants. Latveria is the Best Korea of Europe under him, but with supertech instead of complete economic and technological decay.
Third? Play his hatred of RICHARDS!!!!! Completely straight. Professor Zoom levels of hate. Black Manta levels of hate. There is nothing he will not do to hurt Reed, because there is the chance, however slim (from Doom's perspective), that Reed is smarter and more beloved than him, and the very notion eats Doom up inside.
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>>90532441
I think everybody's butthurt about Moongirl except for SJWs
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>>90532445
but if he's a dick then how am i supposed to relate to him and project my hatred of society onto him then????
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>>90532445
That was kirbys idea. Stan supported the ruined face
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>>90529445
>>
>>90532768
Blame society for your being a dick.
>>
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>>90521187
>>
>>90533347
Both could work in the same canon, though.
>Doom's face only gets mildly scraped in his lab accident (which was all fucking RICHAARFDS' fault)
>that wound to his vanity is enough to cause his asperger to flare up into an atomic shit fit, which subsequently leads him to irreversibly ruining the rest of his (now slightly imperfect) face with a scolding hot iron mask just to push himself well past the point of no return in his undying hatred for that stretchy faggot REEEE(D)
It suits his character perfectly, imo. Because at the end of the day, Doom needs no logical justification the rancor he holds for Reed; he's simply just more than willing to project his own failings onto him (i.e, the miscalculations that led him to getting basically a paper cut), and will go as far as to hold him and his entire family personally responsible for a lab accident that disrupted his immaculately-perceived self image.
>>
That idea with Doom being slighly damaged wouldn't really work in a FF movie tho. Pplz will say something like
>well duh that's all really just his fault what a stupid faggot terrible villain
For movie audiences today bash villains for (le shock) being wrong in the context of the story, we all know it. So in a movie, it would have to be actual damage.
>>
>>90529627
No, because SW was garbage, and Doomwankery of the worst kind.
>>
>>90516238
That's why he's the bestest.
>>
>>90531763
Because half the time those losses get retconned? Because losing doesn't mean that he isn't still a Villain Sue? It even that anon, but at this point you're being purposefully obtuse to keep your Doomboner.
>>
>>90520870
Write him like Shredder from the current Ninja Turtles cartoon. He's a man so hellbent on revenge that he dedicates a ludicrous amount of resources and manpower on destroying the Turtles. The longer any given subordinate spends working under him, the more they start to realize that he's been completely consumed by his obsession to the point where it's questionable how sane he actually is. He's done everything from teaming up with aliens who clearly want to wipe out humanity, raising Splinter's daughter as his own in some kind of a crazy revenge scheme, mutating said daughter (then vowing to destroy Splinter for it, even though he clearly had nothing to do with it), mutating himself into a disfigured mess, and choosing to stab Splinter over stopping the world from exploding.

Write Doom like that. He's a man who has everything, but is willing to go to such disgusting lengths to make Richards pay that you'd pity him if he weren't such an awful person. But at the same time, his single-minded obsession with revenge and near unlimited resources makes him completely terrifying.
>>
>>90516238
Doom wankery is a consequence of Richards wankery. Since Richards is the most intelligent ever in Earth and Doom is his close rival you need to make him kinda mary sue so the real mary sue could still look like a mary sue.

tl;dr It's RICHARDS' fault.
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