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The writer of the biggest Mary Sue in webcomics defends the biggest

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The writer of the biggest Mary Sue in webcomics defends the biggest Mary Sue in Star Wars.
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I actually didn't mind Rei in the new Star Wars. I thought she was really likable.
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I don't know who this is. Why should I care.
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>>78319741
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpS6TlqgLIQ
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>misogynist

wow just jump from there to that
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>>78319741
Nigga, go back to /tv/ with your bitching.
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>>78319773
pretty much everyone who works in webcomics is irrelevant, I don't know why OP cares
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Checkmate sexists.
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>term most often applied to sacred cows like Superman and Batman
>"misogynist"

Someone should kill that fucking cuck.
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She was honestly one of the most obnoxious things in the movie. I didn't mind Finn, I didn't mind Han being a shit smuggler again for no reason, I didn't even mind Kylo/Ben being evil again for pretty much no reason that is explained to us, but Rei's entire character frustrated me.
>>
Judging by the promotional material Rei is an immaculate supermodel despite being a desert scavenger. Is she dirtier in the movie or is this justified in any way? Seems hilariously retarded.
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Rey was fine, and Aaron Diaz tries to prove he's the most progressive person around but acts like a tool. Nothing new. Just because he's a moron doesn't mean you have to always take the exact opposite position he does.
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That's just Diaz trying to reassure himself that his Ashley Burch insert character isn't a Mary Sue.

Which she is.

>nigga thinks character flaws are a bad thing

Because of course he does.

Fucking go away Diaz.
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>>78319855

I can't see how Superman can be seen as a mary sue. They try to give him flaws and humanize him all the time to counteract the public's perception of "HE'S THE STRONGEST OF ALL TIME HE'S BORING"

Batman wears that sue label like his cape tho.
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>>78319741
Actually RPG stats is a good method. Keep your characters balanced.
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>>78319741
Literally who?
>>
>implying rei wasn't about the same as luke in terms of mary sue-ness

>SHE LEARNS THE FORCE TOO QUICKLY AND SHES TOO GOOD

>Luke fucking blew up the entire deathstar/conquered the immediate empire in a single movie going from being a simple farm boy
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>>78319916
Depends on the story. Superman is definitely a Sue sometimes. Like in ASS, where he played the role of immaculate cosmic Jesus. There is no way in hell you can say with a straight face that wasn't some serious suedom.
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>>78319916
>I can't see how Superman can be seen as a mary sue.
He's only seen that way by batfaggots and people who don't read comics. Literally.
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>>78319741
Landis is completely fucking right about Rey. Can you imagine if Luke beats Darth Vader in a duel at the end of A New Hope? Wouldn't that fucking suck? Its exactly what happens in The Force Awakens and it fucking sucks.
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>>78319972
What the fuck dude? I just wanted to participate in a Diaz hate thread and here you are tossing around spoilers. Now I have to hide the thread. Thanks.
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>>78319948

But Luke wasn't a super special mechanic that fixed the Falcon in ways that Solo never figured and Solo didn't immediately like Luke and make him his best buddy and tell him he's going to be his new first mate even though he had never piloted before then.
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>>78319862
>Kylo/Ben being evil again
>evil again
>evil
>again
???
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>>78319950
>There is no way in hell you can say with a straight face that wasn't some serious suedom.
You can if you understood what a mary sue was, which you clearly don't.
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>Just because he's a moron doesn't mean you have to always take the exact opposite position he does.

Smarter words than anything people like Aaron have ever said. Hell, smarter than 80% of twitter.
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>>78319972
Rey doesn't beat Vader though. Kylo Ren is in no way supposed to be as big of a badass as Vader, he's an edgy fanboy trying to be cool and failing at it.
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>>78319741

Diaz is some kind of a living parody of a hipster idiot. I refuse to believe he believes anything he says.
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>>78319948
So Rey is Korra?
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>>78319916
Mary Sue is a pretty overused term, it's even used on characters who aren't OP like Supes or Bats. Unless it's a pretty shitty storyline I don't think Mary Sue applies to either.
Batman is too flawed to be a Mary Sue, since getting as strong as he does usually alienates a ton of people.
>>78319930
Not really, it doesn't really say anything about character or how they use their skill. Making a balanced character could just lead to a boring character.
>>78319991
Do people really care if they're spoiled on this movie?
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>>78319972
> Can you imagine if Luke beats Darth Vader in a duel at the end of A New Hope? Wouldn't that fucking suck?

Han Solo beat Darth Vader.
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>>78320001
There should have been a comma there, I apologize.

>evil, again
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>>78319972
Watch out, nigger Boco is going to ban you for having anti SJW opinions
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>>78319972
Wasn't Kylo supposed to be a beta fuck?

He's the best Force user in the galaxy because he's the only one. Doesn't make him good.
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Hey whatever. You're not a true Star Wars fan if you think this new J.J.oke of a trilogy is worth half a shit anyway.
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>crack shot
>master mechanic
>Skilled melee fighter
>Ace Pilot
>Jedi
>New Captain of the Millennium Falcon
She's not a cunt, but jesus
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>>78319851

In "A New Hope" Luke was a bit cocky, whiny & naive.

>Blaster user & Perfect Shot

Lol wut

>Spy

The fuck?
>>
Someone wrote a decent editorial about how Rey's a pretty big Mary Sue but we tolerate male characters having little difficulty mastering powers and showing hyper-competency is a bunch of areas while still seeming down-on-their-luck or down to earth.

I didn't entirely agree with it but it did make me okay with Rey's competency.
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>>78319994
But Rey is a strong independent woman who need no white man
Maybe you just hate woman?
>>
Luke:

>Ha, destroying the Death Star is easy, I've shot things smaller before
>Oh wait, I can't ;_;
>"Use the Force"
>jk, yeah I can, don't even need a targeting computer lol
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>>78320012
But he's her main antagonist. I don't care how "badass" he's supposed to be, you've still effectively ripped the balls off of a character who MUST fight Rey again in future installments, but since we already know who's objectively strongest regardless of any amount of training from sheer talent alone, there's no tension.

The only way it could work is if Kylo gets redeemed and Rey falls to the darkside in the same movie.
>>
This is why no one writes good female characters.

Shit's too polarizing.
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>>78320048

Wouldn't flying a ship as large as the Falcon be much more difficult than a smaller ship? Where did she get the fuel to just practice flying it around?
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>>78320059
I hate Gary Stus just as much as Mary Sues

Rey is a Mary Sue
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>>78320059

Are you talking about that Verge article?
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>>78320059
Fuck off
>>>/co/micsalliance
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>>78319972
>Kylo gets shot with a bowcaster
>Is losing his shit after what he just did
>Gets wounded in at least two limbs
>So badly hurt he has to punch his own wounds to keep awake
>Still wins one duel and survives another
Kylo was going fucking above and beyond
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>>78320059
Annie-Kun and Luke were pretty fucking bad in Mary Sue-ness.

The only well-written characters in the saga have been Obi-Wan, Han, and Finn.
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>>78320048
Who is Anakin Skywalker?
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>>78319972
Kylo was not as good as he thought and hadn't even completed his training. Also the planet was falling apart, that obviously factored in.
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>>78320064
Yes, Luke was able to be useful after an entire movie of getting his shit wrecked and growing as a character.

Meanwhile Rey can handle any problem presented to her from minute one and inherits the most recognizable images in the Star Wars franchise just by nature of being present and super talented at everything and loved by everyone.
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>>78320093
A definite cunt.
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>>78319855

Why are morons trying to bring the cuckold term back? Are you really that desperate to announce your insecurity to the world?
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>>78320066
>but since we already know who's objectively strongest
We have not seen them fight when Kylo wasn't already half dead from the start. The most we know is that Rey can resist Kylo's mind tricks.
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>>78319851
But luke doesn't know him.
His uncle does because he fucking gave Luke to him.
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Why is being a misogynist a bad thing again?
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>>78319851
Anakin fucking built C3P0 at age 9 and was SPECIUL because he had more Force power than anyone else ever.
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>>78319948
Did Luke beat Vader in Ep 4?

Shut your fucking cock-slot moron.
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>>78320109
>Getting his shit wrecked
I'm having a hard time remembering any time he got his shit wrecked.
I mean the closest I can think of is he had to run away like a bitch but up until that point he didn't have much trouble.
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>>78320093
A good friend.
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>>78319972

Landis isn't right about anything.
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>Rey

You mean Anakin 2.0? Actually, at least she doesn't whine AS much.
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>>78320083
Just say Mary Sue, it's obviously gender neutral at this point .
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>>78319741
Whatever I noticed Rey was a Mary Sue, but it never bothered me. If they want to make her a Mary sue they should have embraced it and gone full ham with it.

I think my only complaint about the movie was that I wanted Finn to actually feel more useful, he was cool and all but just ends up being everyone's punching bag and doesn't really bring much to the team
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>>78320128
I always thought ti was implied Anakin was implied to be like that force baby Palpatine talked about, but I've only see that trilogy once so I might have made it up to try to make his shit make more sense.
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>Rey is a Mary Sue
>OH YEAH WELL LUKE AND ANAKIN WERE TOO BUT THEY WERE MEN SO YOU LIKE THAT SEXIST SHITLORD
female logic
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>>78320048
Luke was almost all of those.
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>Every generation has a story
>Every generation has a Mary Sue

Anakin, Luke, and now Rey for the new age of children
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>>78320183

How is it wrong?
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>>78320161
You are literally a racist
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>>78320066
his balls "were ripped" when we see him cry over Vader's helmet

>who MUST fight Rey again in future installments

Why is that? If anything, the trope dictates she will help him against Snoke with Ben redeeming himself.
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Can't we talk about the bigger issue: a huge regime that indiscriminately gives power to people in black cloaks?
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>>78320109
>loved by everyone
I haven't seen the movie, but this is the defining characteristic of a Sue for me. Almost everyone loves them for no apparent reason, and the people who don't are all incompetent jealous idiots. Luke isn't like that.
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>>78320176
I watched those movies the other day, he's literally space jesus. His mom said there was no father and that he was immaculately conceived and then everyone kept going on about how it was the force. That, and apparently he had a super high midichlorian count or whatever the shit.
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>>78320206
how am I racist?
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>>78320183
>liking Anakin

Who said anything about that? The only time people like Anakin is if it's Vader or The Clone Wars Anakin.

Prequel Anakin was a whiny Sue.
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>>78320132
>sand people
>bar scene
>trash compactor scene
>Vader almost fucks him up before Han saves him

Did you even watch the OT? After years of training he still gets his shit destroyed by the Emperor.
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I like to reserve the use of the term Mary Sue for characters that are obvious self inserts.

Rey wasn't a Mary Sue, but she was portrayed as being almost completely flawless and she really didn't have anything to lose throughout the thing.
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>>78320194
He didn't become half until the second movie though.
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>>78320132
>Got his shit wrecked by sand people, saved by Ben
>Was about to get his shit wrecked in the Cantina, saved by Ben again
>Spends the entirety of the Death Star escape sequence following someone else. Gets saved from being trash compacted by R2-D2
>Is about to get his shit blown away by Vader while running the trench, gets saved by Han Solo turning up just in time to give Luke the shot he needs

Rey is never supported this way. Her supporting cast just gives her weapons and rides to the next problem so she can solve it.
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>>78320066
We haven't seen Kylo at his strongest. We saw him injured, throwing a tantrum and with incomplete training against Rey who pulled a "use the force Luke" and used her quarterstaff style with a lightsaber. Again, Kylo Ren is not Vader. He wasn't here to be the unstoppable force like Vader was.
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>>78320204
Han is one of the few Star Wars characters that isn't a Mary Sue. He and Chewy are the only characters who didn't believe the Falcon was a piece of shit.
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The Gleeson kid was more of a villain than Kylo Ren.
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This isn't particularly surprising, since there's an active movement in amateur writer circles right now promoting the ideas that there's nothing wrong with wanting to write flawless characters, "Mary Sue" as a label stifles creativity, and authors should be actively encouraged to write self-insert fantasies. It's part of a greater effort to "remove negativity" from writer's circles and, subsequently, their writing itself.

I'm really not sure what to make of it, but it's been bewildering me for months, and started slightly before the last National Novel Writing Month. If you dig around a bit, you'll find that "Mary Sue and Proud" has become like, an actual thing.
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>>78320219
Yeah that's what I thought. So I didn't make up that idea. He's literally good at everything (but not being a shit) because magic bacteria.
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>Only hacks would think that
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>>78319916
>I like Superman but not Batman

You should have just said that.
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>Having flaws is a bad thing.
>Being fallible is a bad thing.
>Stories should only involve the protagonist being able to easily overcome large obstacles with little to no effort.
>The protagonist of a story should also be able to do all tasks, especially ones just learned, with minimal effort and as if they had been trained for years.
K. This is just bullshit honestly and things you learn not to do in, like, Creative Writing 101. Why do these people write this drivel when they clearly don't know how to tell good or even adequate stories? These are the type of people who only watch movies or play video games and try to become competent writers.
>>
>>78320121
The question is how is thinking that a character is too flawless and uninteresting means that you hate all women. It makes not sense even from the SJW point of view.
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>>78320276
Typical fucking response.
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>>78320267
>If you dig around a bit, you'll find that "Mary Sue and Proud" has become like, an actual thing.

Christ wept I hate millennials.
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>>78320232
>I like to reserve the use of the term Mary Sue for characters that are obvious self inserts.
Mary Sue as self-insert is a character who shares author's flaws but is treated by the world the way author feel they deserve. Including carrying out revenge to those who wrong them.

It doesn't really need self-insert for the same effect. It might be a paragon of author's views. Or just a pet character.
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>>78319972
Yeah but Ren is no Vader, he just wants to be.
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>people didn't like the Mary Sue-ness of Anakin
>focuses on marketing the films to prequel haters
>still makes Rey

BRAVO ABRAMS
R
A
V
O

A
B
R
A
M
S
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>>78320204
WE'RE NOT COMPARING ACCOMPLISHMENTS, WE'RE COMPARING FUCK UPS

LUKE FUCKS UP
HAN FUCKS UP
EVEN VADER FUCKS UP
REY DOES NOT FUCK UP ONCE
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>>78319772
I agree anon
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>>78320132
Every scene of the a new hope is him getting wrecked or being unable to do anything. His only heroic moment is at the end.
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>>78319741
Mangina simps keep on simping. Satisfying when they're thrown under a bus by their masters.
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>>78319775
Landis sucks but he's 100% right here.
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>>78319851

>professional farmer

You mean his uncle was. We never see Luke doing shit except being told to "Help with the harvest."

>Droid Mechanic

He can clean them if that's what you mean. He couldn't even identify a faulty droid until after it exploded. I guess he wanted to go buy some "Power-converters." at least?

>Pilot
Fair enough.

>Blaster user and perfect shot
He could shoot local pests with a gun. He used the force to auto-aim into the death star.

>Force User
Okay?

>Deflects... blah blah
Fair enough.

>Spy
Not really, Princess Leia immediately called him out and they blew their cover.

>Just happens blah blah...
That was R2's doing though.

>Repeller
Kek.

Shit list.
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>>78320042
It's off to a much better start than the fucking prequels.
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>>78319855
...wait a minute

cuck desu senpai
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>>78319741
That isn't Sohmer
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>>78320290
It's not even a millenial thing really, I mean if you look at the dime store novels and pulp serials that Star Wars was inspired by you'll find the exact same thing. Rey could never be as big of a Mary Sue as someone like Doc Savage.
>>
Bust this: Those movies are about how the white man keeps the brother man down, even in a galaxy far, far away. Check this shit: You got cracker farm boy Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy, blond hair, blue eyes. And then you got Darth Vader, the blackest brother in the galaxy, Nubian god!

Now... Vader, he's a spiritual brother, y'know, down with the force and all that good shit. Then this cracker, Skywalker, gets his hands on a light saber and the boy decides he's gonna run the fuckin' universe; gets a whole clan of whites together. And they go and bust up Vader's hood, the Death Star.

Now what the fuck do you call that?

Gentrification!

They gon' drive out the black element to make the galaxy quote, unquote, safe for white folks. And Jedi's the most insulting installment! Because Vader's beautiful black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty, old white man! They tryin' to tell us that deep inside we all wants to be white!
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>>78320305
How about when she freaks the fuck out over premonitions, runs away like a coward, and then gets fucking kidnapped

That's kind of a big fuck up
>>
>>78320287
It's true tho.
No one of them is a mary sue, saying that one is and the other isn't just shows that he is biased.
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>>78319741

Who is this? Why do you care? You can't have Mary Sues in Star Wars since the force is magic you can use to various degrees of effectiveness the more space germs you have
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>>78320340
Doesn't count, too something something
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>>78320204
Luke was also whiny as fuck and stupid overconfident. For proof, see him being whiny to his foster family and Han in ANH and stupid overconfident in ESB.

Han fucked up all the time. Like that time he got caught and all his skills didn't get him out of getting his ass frozen. Also he has shit people skills.

Anakin was also a whiny bitch who became the Emperor's bitch, doing bitch work for 20 some odd years. When the Emperor tells him to suck his dick, he remembers to swallow.
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>>78320340

And then she easily overpowers her captors and escapes with little to no problem.
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>>78320333
Nice trips i guess
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>>78320225
It's a joke on the trend that you can't criticize a character in any way without being a bigot towards that character's race/gender/sexuality.
>>
I love how instead of trying to disprove that Rey is a Mary Sue people instead try to, incorrectly, point out that Luke was one.
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>>78320048
Crack shot? She missed more than she hit.
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>>78320379
ah gotcha, sorry to ruin the joke
>>
>>78320340
And then outsmarts her captors, escapes, and beats her personal antagonist in both physical combat and a battle of wills with no training of any kind?

Is it really fucking up if the character isn't forced to grow in some way due to the fuck up?
>>
>>78320369
Just like how Luke rescues Leia with little to no problem, constantly getting bailed out by his friends when there's any sort of danger, just like Rey.
>>
>knows the Millenium Falcon better than Han
>not a mary sue
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>>78320305
The entire second half of the movie is about her getting kidnapped because she was too afraid to confront her destiny literally what the fuck movie did you watch
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>>78319741
>I hate the term "character flaws"

Okay
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>>78320087
This tho
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>>78320404

Rey was never bailed out by her friends.

Not once.
>>
>>78320399
Kylo was fucking handicapped and injured in his lightsaber fight with her, and when Rey beats him in a battle of wills, it's not a testament to her power, it's a testament to how mentally weak Kylo actually is.
>>
Luke is saved tons of times in the original trilogy, he is saved by obi wan in the bar, by leia, obi-wan again againts vader, by han in hoth, etc. Even at the end he is saved by Vader againts the emperor. Luke was a good character because they were not trying to write a "STRONG INDEPENDENT CHARACTER WHO NEEDS NO MAN" they were trying to write a hero rising againts all odds.
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>>78319851

>He knows that one guy ON A WHOLE PLANET

But that has nothing to do with the force, it's because Ben is some old freak who lives a few miles away
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>>78320132
He got owned by a Sand Person at the beginning of a New Hope, he almost got raped at the Catina, he got tentacle raped in the trash compactor, Vader was about to rape his boipussi in the X-Wing vs Tie Fighter Death Star fight

And that's just a New Hope!
>>
>>78319741
>If you think Mary Sue is a valid and meaningful criticism of a character, there's a very good chance you're a misogynist
So does this guy think male characters aren't accused of being Mary Sues then?
>>
>>78320438
Kind of sounds like they wrote a hero who just needs to be bailed out and couldn't do anything himself.
>>
>>78320267
I can confirm, there's posts going around tumblr recently about "destigmatizing" author wish fulfillment narratives and actively encouraging writers to experiment with stories about characters who are infallible as a form of personal empowerment.
>>
>>78320404
Luke does not rescue Leia. Han and Ben do. Luke is literally just following orders, and even then only being marginally useful.

Like the order to go get the Princess while Han deals with the console in the detention block?

There are two times in the Death Star escape sequence where Luke is useful. When he swings across the trench using the grappling hook, and when he thinks to call R2 and C3PO to shut off the trash compactor, and he's begging for his life when he does so.
>>
Tropes were a mistake
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>>78320466
He did what thousands of Jedi couldn't and turned Anakin away from darkness and bad writing.
>>
>>78320438
So what, you want them to write another character that's just Luke again?
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>>78320466
That's the thing he did stuff, he still was the protagonist, but he needed other people he wasn't a one man army like Rey is
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>>78319851
>Pilot
>Blaster user and perfect shot
>Force user
>Deflects laser blasts with lightsaber
>Destroys Death Star using the force after one hour of instruction
All of these are explainable via the fact that he's a latent Force user. He had to learn how to get in touch with the Force, and then the Force did the rest. He only had one lesson to learn in order to be able to do everything he had to do in the movie.
>>
>>78320489
The movie is already pretty much a full blown remake of a new hope, they could have at least gave us a relatable main character.
>>
>>78320494
How the fuck was Rey a one man army? She managed to get out of some restraints but she still needed a goddamn rescue
>>
Honestly maybe they should have just made Finn the force sensitive one and had Ray be a Han Solo type mundane hero
>>
This is why no one writes women.

They have to be flawless.
>>
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/a/ here

Rey is female Kira Yamoto

Rey is not female Luke Skywalker

You may now go on watching cartoons about fat lesbians
>>
>>78320489
Writing a character that's a human being would be nice.
>>
>>78319916
>the public's perception of "HE'S THE STRONGEST OF ALL TIME HE'S BORING"
This IS him being seen as a Mary Sue. He's overpowered and perfect, therefore he's boring. That's what Mary Sue means when applied to characters like Superman.
>>
It's true though. People have a bizarre conception of what makes a good character a lot of the time.
>>
>>78320489
Wait, I thought Rey was identical to Luke, thus making all criticism of her hypocritical. Please pick an argument and stick with it.
>>
>>78320489
Why not, they basically just rewrote New Hope desu senpai.
>>
>>78320467
I mean, that's how we got stories like Superman.
>>
>>78319772
I didn't mind her either, but the force mind control thing was really, really bad. It was the only moment I became upset at the movie, that and everyone forgetting Han Solo a few minutes later
>>
>>78320541

No, that's him being judged by people that don't have any knowledge of him outside of his powerset.
>>
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If Rey was a male I doubt people would be defending her

No offense to her actress. Her actress was great. But the character is obnoxiously perfect.
>>
>>78319741
>the term that was coined on female self-insert characters in star wars fanfics
>>
>>78320516
She pilots the millenium falcon better than han, she is an expert mechanic, she is perfectly capable of understanding how to use the force without training or guidance and she is capable of using a lightsaber at the same level than people who had been training with them for years. She doesn't need anyone, the rest of the characters are filler.
>>
>>78320541
The thing is, Superman's struggles aren't physical, but he does struggle internally. Or at least he's supposed to when he's handled by someone competent. That's why things like "Why don't you put the whole world in a bottle, Superman" is so potent. Superman is always trying to do the right thing, but knowing what the right thing is in all situations isn't fucking possible.

Rey is actually never challenged in TFA.
>>
>>78320541
He isn't boring at all, you just struggle to understand stories and symbolism
>>
>>78320406
>Rey has spent her whole life living in piece of shit junk piles like the Falcon
>Has to know parts and how they work because she scavenges and sells them
>Knows what modifications were done to the ship
>Han has not seen the Falcon in YEARS, and it has been modified by at least three people since he last was in it
>>
Wow that's dumb.
>>
>>78320541

>He's overpowered

Not in his own stories. Just compared to the other loser heroes at DC
>>
Overconfident, spunky action girls are tired and cliche at this point give me more awkward dumbly social fuckup female leads
>>
>>78319772
I thought she was cute
>>
>>78320551
Personally, as a reader, not a writer, I feel that "What are character's flaws" is a flawed concept. Unless you make some kind of didactic thematic thing. One man's flaws is another man's virtue anyway.

What is the character like and what do they want and what can they do. What you should try to avoid is looking like you have pets, have world react realistically to your character and don't insist on punishing or vilifying any detractors. This tends to get jarring.
>>
>>78320591

Star Trek.
>>
>>78320599
Didn't know all flight engineers were also ace pilots, anon, tell me more.
>>
>>78320131

Of course he did, he blew up the thing Vader was trying to protect and sent him spiralling into space.
>>
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>Crack shot
>Master Mechanic
>Skilled Melee fighter
>Ace Pilot
I have to go into depth with this one. She pilots the Falcon, a ship optimized for Zero gravity, under the normal gravity of a planet, through the derelict wreckage of a Imperial Cruiser, and around trained Tie fighter pilots.
>Jedi
Now, I'll give her the saber battle. Ren was shot, mentally unstable, and tired from his battle with Finn.
>New Captain of the Millennium Falcon
I just fucking explain this one to you. It is what it is.

The Movie is 7/10, but there are some serious flaws here.
>>
>>78320564
>force mind control thing
You mean the mind trick that has been a staple of the franchise since A New Hope?
>>
>>78320267
>there's an active movement in amateur writer circles right now promoting the ideas that there's nothing wrong with wanting to write flawless characters

You mean in a "guilty pleasure" way? If they're not delusional and understand that no one will want to read that shit and it's just for them, I can understand it.
>>
>>78319948
Luke couldn't get anywhere without help, not even in the big finish when he's a master, he still needed is maimed dad to beat the emperor.
>>
>>78320229
Read the thread retard
>>
>>78320591
Star TREK you fucking imbecile

Ensign Mary Sue was from a STAR TREK fan character.

Jesus Christ.
>>
>>78320648
Yes. But not because it exists, but because she did without any effort at all.
>>
>>78320588
If Rey was a male we probably wouldn't be having the argument at all.
>>
>>78320591
>can't tell the difference between star wars and star trek
>>
>>78320658
>star trek fanfiction
How the times have changed
>>
>>78320680

Bullshit. I'd be just as pissed.
>>
>>78320595
>The thing is, Superman's struggles aren't physical, but he does struggle internally. Or at least he's supposed to when he's handled by someone competent.
Golden Age Superman really didn't, and those stories kind of kick ass. Hell, Silver Age Superman usually wasn't that emotionally challenged either. You're talking from a purely Bronze Age forward interpretation of the character, and arguably not his strongest era.
>>
>>78320593

Pilots better than Han?

That's a strong argument to make considering we never saw them go head to head and she spent most of her flight going 'Oh god, I'm trying anything I can to make this work'. I seriously doubt she could have made the landing on Starkiller Base.

She also manages to beat a guy in a lightsaber duel who's been shot and slashed up with a lightsaber already. Kylo Ren had been shot in the gut with a bowcaster and taken some nasty hits against Finn already.

The Mechanic part was a clearly established part of her backstory as a scavenger.

The force came a bit faster than most but Ezra Bridger pushed shit with the force with no training so it looks like it's not something that's impossible without training.
>>
>>78320648
The staple power that only Jedi masters are able to use.
>>
>>78319741
>any and all criticism of female characters is misogynist

jesus christ when does this shit end?
>>
>>78320588
If Rey was a male, we would just accept that he's a bad ass.

People can't accept a competent woman character.
>>
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>>78320647
>>78320647
Also, I totally forgot to add the fact that she was able to not only combat and resist Kylo's force mind tricks, but was able to go into his mind and extract information as well.

Hell, all of this can be forgiven if my friend is telling the truth:
He actually works for Disney in a writing capacity and claims that Rey was the student who destroyed Luke's new Jedi training camp, which is why she was exiled on Jakku. It's the fact that the Dark side of the force is fueled by passion and rage that causes Rey to be so adept in the areas that she shines in
>>
>>78320333

What's a nubian?
>>
>>78320604
She's not overconfident or spunky, her character is actually somewhat blandly serious. My only real complaint with her was that they didn't let her be fun or funny like Poe and Finn and BB8.
>>
>If you think "Mary Sue" is a valid and meaningful criticism of a character, there's a very good chance you're a misogynist.
>>
>>78320059

Honestly people are going to bitch, but this guy has a point

I think part of it is because of the politicized environment we're in. When a male character gets shit-talked and then displays surprising competence, it's just seen as an individual action. When a female character gets shit-talked and then displays surprising competence, it's almost always played for "WHOA U MISOGYNIST MEN THOUGHT THAT A GIRL COULDN'T DO THIS WELL GUESS WHAT BOYS GRRL POWER MOVE OVER"

To give a more familiar example: There IS a sort of dynamic like this going on with Luke in the originals. There's a bit of a "Simple farm boy" vs. "Sophisticated city slicker" kind of thing going on between him and Han. Not played up too much, of course, but it's there. And, if you were looking for it, some moments COULD come across as "YEAH IN YOUR FACE CITY DWELLERS FARM BOYS CAN DO THIS SHIT TOO." The thing is, sadly, that I don't think that country vs. city is nearly as politicized nowadays as women vs. men is.
>>
>>78320724

Luke used it in Return of the Jedi and he was a Knight, not a Master.
>>
>>78320680
>saying this on the same board that can't go 10 mintues without calling a DC hero a mary sue/gary stu
>>
>>78320680
Nah he'd be the new major protagonist of an overhyped series with tons of fans, he'd be getting compared to everyone who preceded him and whether or not he was a worthy legacy or whatever and would have to compete with everyones warped vision of what that should be.
>>
>>78320726

She's not competent, she's flawless.

She has to be.

You can't make her anything less or you'd be accused of being a sexist.
>>
Kylo Ren is good character with interesting motivations and internal struggle. But very weak main villain in an action-adventure story. The ginger general was better as the villain, he should be the "final boss" and if you could not do action with him, should have given some fucking room the chief storm-trooper.

I do know there are established reasons why he is weak in the final confrontation (being heavily wounded, emotionally unstable), but it just sucks if the main boss is a little bitch.
>>
>>78320680
actually i have had this argument with people before when I believe people are writing Batman in full swing Mary Sue mode
>>
>>78320637
you know. in hindsight its kindof funny Luke's background and skillset NEVER gets used. at best, you just have the "I used to bullseye wamprats in my T-16.."

And there is the noting he intended to join the Resistance as a pilot.

But the actual moisture farming, etc. nothing. not even when they return to Tatoonie for Jabba.
more typical writing would have had him infiltrate Jabba's palace as a water merchant or something..
>>
>>78320738
He's also the son of a guy who had a virgin birth due to his high midochlorian count.
If Rey isn't Luke or Leia's daughter, or another granddaughter of Anakin, it's just shit.
>>
>>78320743
People have listed her flaws in this very fucking thread. You refuse to listen to them because if you accepted she might be a decent character, you'd be siding with SJWs.
>>
>>78320730
>literal 'my dad works for nintendo' post
>>
>>78320730
I really hope someone believes and tries to pass on this complete bullshit.
>>
>>78320778
She's a totally fucking bland character.
>>
>>78320769

The former Padawan who never finished his training also uses it in Rebels. Not often but he does.
>>
>>78320778

I think she's a decent character. I liked her. I just think they made her too perfect and I don't think she really had anything at stake in the movie. It all came very easy to her.
>>
>>78319741
I wish someone would set up a Patreon dedicated solely to punching him in the face. I've never seen anybody who talks so much despite knowing nothing about anything.
>>
Rey is what they have been doing to Leia in EU for years
>>
>>78320769
You know she is, that backstory's not going to have her abandoned family be a bunch of new nobodies.
>>
>>78320778
To be fair who wants to side with Aaron Diaz?
>>
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>>78320204
Luke was going to get killed by raiders without Obi-wans help

Luke was going to get his ass beat by bar flies without hans help

Luke was going to going to get crushed in the trash compactor without R2's help.

Luke would've been killed in the trench run, if it weren't for the unfortunate fucks that took the shelling from the back with him the lead.

Luke would've been killed by Vader, if it weren't for Han saving his ass to make the shot.

Luke got his ass kicked by Vader, needed Leia & Lando to save his ass.

Luke would've been a Jedi medium rare steak if it weren't for his own Dad.

Rei Skywalker.

>I think I can handle myself!
>>
>>78320783
>>78320785
I myself think it's bullshit, which is why Rey's character can't be forgiven so easily.

If my friend is putting on, which I know he is, then Rey is a Mary Sue. Only the dark side could explain how she literally out maneuvered Kylo Ren with the force on several occasions.
>>
>>78320778
Other people have explained that, because she's never forced to grow as a character due to those supposed flaws, they aren't actually flaws.

You're just so obsessed with sounding "moderate" that you refuse to call a spade a spade.
>>
She's not a Mary Sue, she's Hoak Hogan with tits - right down to the fact that most of her allies are afterthoughts. And that's even worse.

Replace her with peak Hulkamania Hogan, and nothing changes.
>>
>>78320794
I thought anything that wasn't the movies or the TV specials from the 70s wasn't supposed to be "true" canon
>>
>>78320720
>That's a strong argument to make considering we never saw them go head to head
That's what Han says.
>She also manages to beat a guy in a lightsaber duel who's been shot and slashed up with a lightsaber already.
He was a little bit rough up, but she never used a lightsaber before that point, that guy should have beat her even while being a little bit injured.
>The Mechanic part was a clearly established part of her backstory as a scavenger.
Yes scavenger are well known for being tech engineers. When i have a problem with my computer i call the scraptyard.
>The force came a bit faster than most but Ezra Bridger pushed shit with the force with no training so it looks like it's not something that's impossible without training.
I don't care about non-canon shit, the force needs to be trained to be use to the level that she was using it.
>>
>>78320811
Let's be fair, Anon, to all of them. The movie characters might as well be a pantheon of gods in the EU.
>>
>>78320824
Wow you really hate woman
>>
>>78320324
>Fair enough.
That's not a Mary Sue trait though. He states in the briefing scene that he used to fly and shoot womp rats all the time back home. He's the Star Wars equivalent of a redneck kid who's a good shot because he goes out and shoots squirrels and shit all the time.
>>
>>78320738
Yes, after training for years to use it.
>>
>>78319972
While shit, Ren was clearly trying to not hurt his sister.
>>
>>78320726
>People can't accept a competent woman character
Ridley from Alien
Sarah Connor from Terminator
Ahsoka from Star Wars Clone Wars

These are competent female characters and are pretty awesome, and guess what they have flaws and learn from their mistakes
>>
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>>78320832
>You know, I can take anything from you I want
>JUST TRY IT, BROTHER
>>
>>78320847

This is true.

The only EU thing I ever read was Death Troopers and Han and Chewie are shoe-horned into that really awkwardly and as soon as they show up they're made completely immune to the zombine virus.
>>
>>78320836
The only things that are canon are the movies, The Clone Wars CGI series, and anything released after the Disney purchase, which includes Rebels.
>>
>>78320797

Eh, she was a much worse shot than Finn (She fucked up firing the pistol and has about the lowest stormtrooper kill count in the entire series for a protagonist) and she's got her own emotional issues that mirror Kylo Ren's.

She's a light side mirror to him. Powerful in the force but with emotional issues related to belonging and family. He's more trained but more unstable, she's a bit more focused but so far untrained (Hence trying to use the lightsaber like a spear for most of the fight)
>>
>>78320824
But anon, she is so strong and independent!
>>
>>78320897
>She's a light side mirror to him.

This is a good point. I haven't seen this raised before.
>>
>>78320873
>Ridley
barely looks like a woman, doesn't count
>Sarha Connor
so competent couldn't stop the nuclear disaster
>Ashoka
kids cartoon
>>
>>78320836

Nah, the new cartoons and books (Including Rebels) are canon.

So a Ex-Padawan who's spent most of his life trying to avoid his force powers (According to his book) can use the Mind Trick.
>>
>>78319881
Nah, she looks like that throughout the whole ordeal
>>
>>78320824
>Luke was going to get his ass beat by bar flies without hans help
i meant obi wan's help, damn it.
>>
>>78320669
That's not true, she had to try it multiple times before it worked.

And the speed with which she learns to use the force is consistent with the original trilogy. It's supposed to be this thing that guides you and takes the wheel for you if you believe hard enough, not the "you literally go to an academy and train from childhood to adulthood" thing that George fucked up and made it into in the prequels.

Plus Kylo was shitty at fighting and wounded. I don't know where all this shit that Rey was too good too soon is even coming from.
>>
>>78319948
Luke was the child of one of the greatest Force users in recent history, had guidance by another of the greatest and used it to guide a shot in "don't think, feel" samurai movie fashion.

Rei is doing fucking Jedi mind trick shit after an hour, shit that we only see Obi-Wan and Luke after training under Yoda do in the OT.
>>
>>78320791
She's no more bland than Luke is.
>>
>>78320860
i'll take your post as sarcasm but let me be cautious here and just say Fuck you if you're genuine.
>>
>>78320824

>Luke would've been a Jedi medium rare steak if it weren't for his own Dad.

The rest of these you have points on, but Lucas said Luke would've been able to go in there and curbstomp both Vader and Palpatine if he really wanted to. He didn't because he knew that lowering his guard would be the only way to get Vader to show compassion. If he hadn't tossed his saber away he'd have had no problem dealing with Palpatine's sparklers.
>>
Even if you like Rey you have to admit that scene where she first uses a Jedi mind trick to remove her restraints was dumb.

>no hand gestures
>>
>>78320021
He basically sucker punched Vader like the nigger he is.
>>
>>78320897
The difference is her "flaws" don't affect her actions or competency in any way.

In that sense, the movie would be way more interesting told from the point of view of Kylo. Even with all his anger and training and his black robes and one-of-a-kind lightsaber and with an army at his back, he just can't measure up to this girl who seems perfect in every way. He kills his father to try to be but it doesn't work and all he's left with is failure.

Kylo is so clearly the best part of the movie.
>>
>>78320935
Alright man, you know what? You're right. This movie was made for people like you, not people like me.

Enjoy.
>>
If any rando can pick up a lightsaber and use it than why don't more people fight with lightsabers

Of all the EU things to undo why would you undo only Jedi/Sith being able to wield lightsabers, eg., the only part of the EU that really made sense
>>
>>78320267

And this is how art dies...
>>
>>78320981

Because you need the force to really be able to deflect laser shots, and if you can do that you might as well have a kitchen knife
>>
>>78320980
Well I'm glad we have concluded that the film was made for people who enjoy things instead of pedantic shitheads that look for reasons to get angry at girls being good at things in popular media

Glad movies are getting made for me and not you, pham
>>
>>78320962
Lucas did not direct Return and he can say whatever he likes, but that's not the way the scene is presented.
>>
>>78319741
>I kinda even hate the term "character flaws" because it sounds like you're balancing an RPG stat sheet. No one should write like that"
How are Character Flaws a bad thing? Even Kenshiro was able to fail in Fist of the North Star, and he's basically the definition of a flawless character.

>>78319773
He puts ketchup on his steak
>>
>>78320920
>>78320889
So which is it?
>>
>>78321011

*can't
>>
>>78320873
The only one from the Internet age is Ahsoka, and if you think people didn't hate her or call her a Mary Sue for years I'd like to know what alternate timeline you hail from.
>>
>>78320329
If that's the case, then I don't see how the trend of relentlessly mocking old pulp fiction can continue. How can one make fun of that stuff for being bombastic and over-the-top, and then turn around and make something just as corny? And it's always amateur writers and caustic critics that do that shit, so there would be plenty of hypocrisy involved if this takes off.
>>
>>78320680
Nigger, have you ever been in a Batman thread? Or, God help you, a DOOM thread?
>>
Nah, she isn't a mary sue. Mary sues don't have flaws.

I dunno how to describe it exactly, but somebody who's told she's a Jedi and offered a free lightsaber and turns it down has got to have something wrong in the head.
>>
>>78320977

Her flaws are the entire reason she got grabbed, knocked out and captured by Kylo Ren. That is how Uninjured, Focused Kylo Ren vs Her went.

If her friends hadn't turned up to help her, she'd have been spread all over the ground when she encountered Ren trying to make her way to a ship or just killed by the huge amounts of AA Starkiller base had.

>>78321034

Both of those are agreeing? They are saying that movies, cartoons and books are canon.
>>
>>78320981
The thing was never that only Jedi/Sith can use them, it's that they can only be proficient enough with them for stuff like blocking shots, or twirling them around without maiming themselves.

Also I'm assuming that Finn is force-sensitive just not as powerful as Rey. Because otherwise Finn being able to fight Kylo Ren somewhat competently is a much bigger problem than Rey being able to beat him, t b h.
>>
>>78320972
I was hoping her guard would just say something like "Why would I ever do that?"
>>
>>78320981
There aren't that many sabers in existence, I think constructing one actually requires force powers.

Plus you could accidentally cut yourself to pieces so it's a personal choice thing, like "Well I could fight with this, but it's just as fucking dangerous to me as to my opponent".

Why do so many people use guns in the real world? Because it's WAY fucking easier to kill someone with a gun than learning to fucking fence.
>>
>>78320983
Again, old writing and adventure stories did this all the fucking time, it's only fairly recently that people have thought only relatable underdogs could be good characters.
>>
>>78320824

>Rey would have been blased by TIE fighters without Finn's knowledge and manning the guns

>Rey doesn't even know to take the safety off, is lousy shot

>Rey gets bodied by Kylo Ren, is saved only because she's seen the map and gets easily knocked out and kidnapped

>Only able to out-mindrape Ren because he gets cocky and mind reads extraneous backstory shit and pisses her off

>Rey still needed to get bailed out by Han, Finn, and Chewie.

>Rey would've gotten her ass kicked by Ren if he wasn't bleeding out and not trying to kill her

>Would have died on an exploding sunplanet mourning her husbando were it not for Chewie finding her in the Falcon.

Basically, blame Ren
>>
>>78321088
I assume Finn knew how to use a lightsaber because he was trained from birth for war. So it makes sense that he'd know how to use all sorts of weapons.
>>
>>78321041
I'm sure people have called her a mary sue, a lot of people get called that in the internet age. However I can at least say that personally I don't think she is a Mary Sue.
She had stakes to fight for, she had purpose. She failed at things and learned throughout the series.

However Rey just tries things and they work, she just knows it. Whatever if you like Rey or other people like her that's fine, however she is a Mary Sue. I for one don't think her being a Mary Sue is a bad thing, but it does need to be full ham and embraced if you want to go that route with her
>>
>>78321029

>Luke tosses saber away and leaves himself directly open

Luke is shown to be an entirely different animal in ROTJ from start to finish. All it took to get Palpatine was lift him up. Hell Luke didn't even get disfigured or horribly burned from lightning like some do.

Lucas created the whole series and his word on the first six movies is final regardless. I know it's popular to hate the guy because of some mediocre prequel movies but that's the bottom line. There's nothing in that scene that suggests Luke wouldn't have been able to take both of them. The scene is presented as Luke refusing to fight at all because that's the way he knows will win the battle and also win his father back, thus gaining the moral victory as well.
>>
>>78320981

Anybody can pick up a sword and use it. You're still going to get your ass handed to you by somebody who has been trained. Unless he was shot in the stomach before hand of course
>>
>>78319741
This bothered me too, it's also why I like Finn better as a character because he's the only one who had a full arc in the movie.

Finn isn't a perfect character; he's ignorant, emotionally unstable, naive, and is thrust into a situation he does not want to be in. This makes him more realistic as a character.

Rey is a bland character. Her actress was spectacular, but JJ could have done so much more with her in that movie than he did.

What's wrong with making a woman character have flaws? I mean if we're going down the politically correct route here where is all the butt-hurt from making the black guy look like a complete spaz at the beginning of the movie?

JJ's just been pussy-whipped by Disney because they need another princess.
>>
>>78320333

I haven't seen Chasing Amy in forever. It had some good jokes here and there, but the plot, and ending sucked.
>>
>>78321104
>is lousy shot
Does she even miss once? Do you not get that "doesn't know how to turn the safety often" doesn't combo with "kills a dozen guys with the first shot once it is off".

I like how nobody invested in viewing this as a gendered thing comments on her dinky little girl's gun either.
>>
>OP is about a comic book writer talking about a non-comic book movie
>the entire thread is talking about the non-comic book movie
>250 replies thus far
>on /co/ - Comics & Cartoons
>>
>>78321088

Eh, I'd call it fine. He was using it like a baton against an injured person who is expressly a pale shadow of Vader.

See the fight with him and the taser-trooper. That was uninjured and clearly showing that stormtroopers get some serious melee training. So I'd believe that an uninjured stormtrooper could get in a hit or two against a highly injured sith who was in the middle of a mental breakdown.

That and, you know, he lost.
>>
>>78321071
This is like her ONE moment of weakness as a character, and even then it's stupid.
>You are destined to be a badass
>NO, I DON'T WANT TO BE A BADASS! YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!
>>
>>78321075
>she'd have been spread all over the ground when she encountered Ren trying to make her way to a ship

Do you know that for sure? Ren and the entirety of the bases' troops were looking for her and she evaded them perfectly fine before Han and Finn showed up. And since she's an ace pilot, there's literally nothing stopping her from sneaking onto a ship or stealing one with hyperdrive.
>>
>>78320983
Don't be so fucking dramatic. We're talking about the opinions of fanfic writers, not people who are publishing successfully. And even if we were, trends change faster in art than in anything else.
>>
>>78321137
star wars has a comic series
suck my dick
>>
>>78320557
In what way? I get that she has background in self defense & technical savy on a junk planet where it's everyone for themselves, but the Jedi stuff is Mary Sue as fuck. Luke was shit with a lightsaber and new no other Jedi fuckery until Return.

That was bullshit and you know it.
>>
>>78321136

Dinky gun? That thing was a sodding hand cannon.
>>
>>78321136
She literally misses right after she turns the safety off. She's practically the only main character in the film who misses a blaster shot at that.
>>
>>78321137
Looking at every comic site especially comicbook.com you would think Star Wars originated from a comic
>>
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>>78320267
Yeah, you see this shit in Sci-Fi communities.

Everything's political. If you write a progressive character she can be a Sue and you'll get praise for towing the Party Line

Thankfully Rey isn't really progressive or propaganda, she's just a fucking Sue. But you'll see tons of novellas with Mary Sues who give long boring speeches on gay rights and shit and convince the world because they're -just- that charismatic
>>
>>78321161
You are not talking about the comic series dipshit
>>
>>78321161
Literally everything has a comic series, you Tumblrite fucking retard.
>>
>>78321170
Then immediately after she shoots the blaster three times and kills three people.

Stop misleading people. SEE SHE'S FLAWED SHE SHOT WITH THE SAFTEY ON WHAT A BIG FLAW XD
>>
>>78321173
>Sci-Fi
At this point its escapism in general, regardless of genre or medium.
>>
>>78321165
Being an engineer doesn't make you a pilot.
>>
>>78321190

She then misses with half a dozen shots against Ren. Not deflected. Flat misses.
>>
>>78319741
>I kinda even hate the term "character flaws"

Wew.
>>
>>78321166
There was nothing impressive about it, every single laser gun in the movie does the exact same thing except Chewie's bowcaster.
>>
>>78321190
She misses after she takes the safety off.
>>
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>>78319741
>Character flaws are sexist
>>
>>78320916
>Barely looks like a woman
Literally the last scene in the movie has her in tiny panties, the fuck are you in about?
>>
>>78321136
If the movie wasn't so clumsy, the usual suspects would have jumped on that, but right now they think they've got bigger fish to fry.
Just wait a couple of months - the movie's bound to be "revisited" by culture critics that need some free publicity, and they'll fixate on shit like that for days.
>>
>>78321233

I meant the look of it. It's short but it's thick and heavy looking despite it's shortness.
>>
>>78320250
>He wasn't here to be the unstoppable force like Vader was
except that's exactly the impression we're being given outside of the movie.

this is why I haven't seen this POS yet; I knew it was basically going to be jj failing to deliver all over again.
>>
>>78321282
Marketing lied to you. Marketing does this. The movie is very, very clear he's a dumb teenager tryhard.
>>
>>78321125
>JJ's just been pussy-whipped by Disney because they need another princess.
Why do you think this wasn't Jew Jew's idea?
>>
>>78321170
That isn't a character flaw, that's just shit writing meant to lead the audience into believing Rey is anything but a writer insert.

She is a Mary Sue in the original sense of the term; literally a female protagonist who exceeds other established characters of the canon at their own specialties for no reason other than she can.

We are introduced to Rey as having no idea whether or not the Jedi actually existed. She says Luke Skywalker was just a legend, and yet she innately understands how to use the Jedi Mind Trick in about three minutes. She's a crack shot, a perfect mechanic, and all around the worst character in the movie. The CGI yellow woman was better, as was Leia. Rey was obviously shoehorned into the writing, it's so apparent.
>>
>misogynist

Wasn't the term coined by a female writer?
>>
>>78321146
It's a major part of her character throughout the movie. She keeps being offered grander things in life, whether joining the Falcon or becoming a Jedi, but all she wants to do is run away from it all and go back home.
Granted, we know there's a reason for it and maybe it's even that she's *compelled* to go back, but she doesn't jump to the call like Luke did.
>>
The thing is Diaz has a point. Way too many authors treat their characters like giving them some imaginary ratio of bad to good traits will make them compelling. It doesn't. That's why you can have characters that are technically Sues that are compelling, easily.

The simple fact is, however, that we don't really know what makes one character compelling and another not so. We don't actually have access to our internal emotional states, and all the explanation in the world is just post-fact rationalizing. We are most likely NEVER going to be able to tell why we find some characters compelling and others not compelling.

Diaz, being the cuck he is, uses this as proof of some unfalsifiable theory of sexism. The thing is, there probably ARE some gender differences between characters we find compelling. Certain things women do we find compelling, and certain things men do we find compelling, and rarely find them compelling when the roles are reversed, unless we're just trying to like them for the political point they're making, which comes across as tired and shallow.
>>
>>78321257
she looks like a wood plank with no ass or tits
>>
>Lukes a Gary Stu
ok
>Reys a Mary Sue
FUCKING TRASH

OP's guy is wrong tho, being either of these is legitimate criticism
>>
>>78321358
>The simple fact is, however, that we don't really know what makes one character compelling and another not

Read a fucking book.
>>
>>78321376
>Luke's a Gary Stu
What the fuck are you on about?

Luke's specialty throughout all the OT was consistently piloting. He wasn't magically good at fixing shit, he wasn't a crack shot, he didn't get Force powers in the first movie he appeared in, and he didn't escape capture through the strength of his own plot powers. He suffered, grew, made friends and real connections.

Luke was a typical epic protagonist.
>>
>>78321358
>The simple fact is, however, that we don't really know what makes one character compelling and another not so.
You fucking wot m8?
>>
>>78321381
Mistaking something based on emotion and opinion as a quantifiable fact like math or science is pretty much autism.
>>
>>78321358
>Way too many authors treat their characters like giving them some imaginary ratio of bad to good traits

No they don't, and no he doesn't. It's a strawman, like all of Diaz's "criticisms." Acknowledging that flawed characters are way more interesting than characters who excel isn't accepting a ratio, it's basic storytelling.
>>
>>78321412
>he didn't get Force powers in the first movie he appeared in

Yes he did.
>>
>>78321381

I read books all the time, buddy. But this is stuff that's being researched right now. The simple fact is that people are terrible at explaining why they like something, and when they try to rationalize it they end up regretting their choice. There's been some interesting work done, actually, in this area, and I think it holds out great hope for our culture, because maybe if it becomes more widespread I think we'll become less obsessed with explaining why we like certain things or not, and just acknowledge the reality that we like what we like, we don't need to explain it-indeed, our explanations of why we like it are almost certainly wrong.

Now are you interested in discussing this, or are you going to keep up with the whole "You have a different opinion so you must be uneducated" thing?
>>
>>78321426
Character flaws aren't based on the eye of the beholder.
>>
Why does /co/ have to suffer such a garbage thread?
>>
>>78321146
But think about the emotional depth! And the sheer RANGE Daisy Ridley shows in going from "smarmy fuck" to "startled horse"!
Plus, that's her Denying The Callâ„¢. You can't have Star Wars IV-2 without a lead Denying The Callâ„¢. How else will high school English juniors be able to write essays about how the movie uses the hero's journey (or "heroine's journey" - that's sure to get a smiley face on the title page) "to great effect"? That's an easy A, and god knows those kids need it.
>>
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>>78319741
>the biggest Mary Sue in Star Wars.
>>
>>78321426
And dismissing an entire field of study because you find it inconvenient is pretty much critical theory at its core.
>>
>>78321326
Because JJ wasn't afraid to make extremely misogynist women characters in the Star Trek films.

Uhura gets beat up a LOT in both films, along with putting other female characters in there for the sole purpose of getting dicked by Chris Pine.
>>
>>78321469
Because /co/ is the most autistic board on 4chan. Yes, even more so than /b/, /v/ and /tv/.
>>
>>78321412

> he didn't get Force powers in the first movie he appeared in

Did you not watch the climax of the movie?
>>
>>78319775
>Max Landis desperately trying to get attention

War never changes.
>>
>>78321435
Yes, they really do. Particularly among areas that Diaz is probably most interested in, which is pop-culture science fiction and fantasy. I think that maybe the people who are intereste din this genre are more interested in describing worlds or political systems than they are with creating compelling characters, so they treat character writing like they do anything, a balance of traits rather than an organic whole.
>>
>>78321412
Luke blew up the Death Star using the force
was able to infiltrate and rescue princess Leia competently
and, pretty much in the scope of the first movie, he rarely fucks up a task given to him.

In later movies he fucks up a lot more, but in a new hope he's pretty untouchable.

I mean, you'd have to be a complete asshole not to see the parallels between A new Hope and Force Awakens. ie, it's a soft reboot. Rey is the Luke of this movie, so it makes sense
>>
>>78321455
>You have a different opinion so you must be uneducated.

>Entire post is generalities and sweeping statements.

As the proud holder of a Master's Degree in rhetoric, I'll wait for you to make an actual point. If your argument is that character flaws are relative, you're wrong. You seem to be confusing people liking poorly-written characters with storytelling merit, but I'll let you respond first.
>>
You guys are being rused.

Rey is the Padawan that killed all of Luke's Padawans.

Rey is Darth Revan
>>
>>78321507

i want to read his salt on twitter but there's so fucking much and hell if i'm watching a video
>>
>>78321473

>How else will high school English juniors be able to write essays about how the movie uses the hero's journey

Yes because A New Hope NEVER USED THE HEROES JOURNEY.
>>
>>78320762
no he was planing to join the empire hell the only reason was not already in flight school was Uncle Owen would not allow him to leave until the next year and need help with the harvest. that is the first thing we know about him he wants to get the fuck off that planet and doesn't care how the fuck it happens
>>
>>78319741
I'm pretty sure Rey is a mind wiped Jedi trainee who survived Kylo's massacre and was put away on an obscure planet for her own protection by Luke.
>>
>>78321469
>Discussion about what makes a character relatable is garbage
Literally Reddit tier. Go back to your circlejerk.
>>
>>78320322
I still don't get why /co/ hates him so. He seems pretty alright.
>>
>>78321537
Joke is on you shitlord, I am from tumblr
>>
>>78321508
>Yes, they really do.
No, they really don't. I'll repeat: acknowledging that flawed characters are truer to life than flawless ones is not "autism," not is it comparing your character to an imaginary ratio of good and bad. It's good storytelling.
>>
>>78321520

> muh Master's Degree in rhetoric
So you're going to do the whole "You have a different opinion, so you're uneducated" thing. Okay.

Nah, I'll just leave it at that, since you blatantly lack the reading comprehension to understand the point I was making.
>>
>>78320093
A terrible character
>>
>>78321569
Nope, just stating the facts. You acquit yourself from the argument because you have nothing but sweeping, ambiguous statements lacking any real intellectual depth. Your Millennial education has failed you; disagreeing with you on the grounds that you haven't made a point isn't insulting you for being uneducated.

Read a book. I'd start with this one.
>>
>>78321522

He really is insufferable.

He's being an inflammatory baby because Victor Frankenstein and American Ultra both tanked.

And I liked Ultra well enough for the dumb stoner action comedy it was.
>>
>>78321488
I want to get dicked by Chris Pine.
>>
>>78321563
I never said it was autism, and I never said that flawed characters aren't truer to life than flawless ones. What I said is that too many authors seem to think that balancing flaws and virtues is what makes a compelling character.
>>
>>78320204
Luke let Ben die, almost died on Hoth (and then got shot down again later), flunked out of Yoda's training, lost an arm to Darth Vader and had to be rescued by Lando and co. and then he had to be bailed out by his dad when he finally came face to face with Palpatine. He doesn't really even become competent at anything other than piloting until the third movie and that skill is mostly due to his force sensitivity.

Han got captured, tortured and served up to Jabba the Hutt, his ship is constantly breaking and he walks right into a trap on Endor's moon and has to be saved by teddy bears.

Anakin was such a shitty jedi that he ended up being manipulated into butchering dozens of children, killing his own wife and toppling a 25,000 year-old republic before getting absolutely #rekt by Obi-Wan.
>>
>>78321534
Rey is the one who did the massacre.

Kylo Ren is training so he can have his revenge.
>>
>>78321608

> Millenial education!
> I'm a master of rhetoric
> Recommends Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance

This has to be bait. 8/10, you got me pretty good.
>>
>>78321511
What I don't get is, how does saying "if anyone's a Sue, it's Luke" (not that it's what you're saying, but it's that line of garbage that started this particular shitfit, which is one of many) prove that Rey is NOT a Sue? If anything, that just proves they're both Sues. And there have been plenty of edgelord teens who argue that Luke is too perfect, so it's not like that's a particularly brilliant observation. Seems like Diaz just started off with "no u" and tried to flesh it out with his usual abstract bullshit about structured sexism.
>>
>>78321511
>Using the Force.
Guided by the ghost of Obi-Wan Kenobi. His mentor.
>Infiltrate and rescue Princess Leia.
With the help of five other characters.
>Rarely fucks up a task given to him.
He loses R2-D2, gets fucked up by Sand People, starts a bar fight, is almost crushed by a trash compactor, is almost murdered by Darth Vader were it not for Han Solo's intervention.

He fucks up plenty and more than Rey.
>>
>>78320229
Anakin wasn't a sue. He had plenty of flaws.
>>
>>78321527
>Yes because A New Hope NEVER USED THE HEROES JOURNEY.
>You can't have Star Wars IV-2

Work on your reading comprehension, mate.
>>
>>78321643
Let me guess: You think "Zen and Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" is actually about motorcycle maintenance? Adorable. Again, read a book.
>>
>>78320563
>I mean, that's how we got stories like Superman.
Superman was more like an avatar of morality than an actual person, though. There really wasn't even a pretense of fallibility around him.
>>
>>78319851
Could have just said for the first four
>Luke is : Redneck in space
>>
>>78320399
She did grow. Her fuckup was running away from taking Luke's saber and being a jedi, her escape from the fuckup was deciding to embrace a force power, and she wins the climax by calling it to her hand.
>>
>>78321624
>Luke let Ben die

Ben get wrecked by Vader while Luke was on the other end of the landing pad and there were storm troopers everywhere.
>>
>>78321537
If you find any value in this shit heap of a thread I commend your ability to waste an enormous amount of your time reading a surface level, high school discussion of character development.

This thread is more akin to a room of retards fingering each others buttocks while screeching their overcooked analysis of tired and trite tropes.
>>
>>78321662

>is almost murdered by Darth Vader were it not for Han Solo's intervention.

You mean like how Ren would have kicked her ass (Like he did the last time they had a 'fight') if it hadn't been through the metric shittonne of beating before he encountered her?
>>
>>78321653
men are just women with dicks
>>
>>78321646
Actually, this is what I meant. Theyre BOTH sues. At least in the first of their respective movies.

Any errors made by the characters were errors of judgment. Rey ran, leading to her capture. Luke went to go find Obi-wan, leading to the demise of his uncle and aunt (although he probably would've suffered the same fate)

I guarantee, since these movies will probably parallel the original trilogy, we we get Rey failing at something, whether its a rematch with Kylo, fighting Snope, or something.
>>
>>78321712
>Grow
You mean like everyhing fell into place and she didn't learn a thing
>>
He's got a point of people thinking fiction should be balanced like some kind of video game mechanic.
>>
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>>78321608
That is, without a doubt, the douchiest book you could have coiled onto this back-and-forth. Bravo.
>>
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>>78321653
>And if women were actually portrayed realistically women IRL would bitch to the point the nation goes deaf while men would grab guns and kill themselves. The reason men would choose death? Because most men have been raised believing in shit like Girl Power and honestly think women are just Men with Tits/Vag. The lie is so strong that reality would break them horribly once they see the propaganda is not up to snuff in reality. Hence they kill themselves for the most part.

You might want to see a shrink, buddy.
>>
>>78321691

I guess this caliber of argument is what a degree in something like rhetoric gets you.

> inb4 you rant and rave about how you make 200k a year and your degree is only for genius-level IQs
>>
>>78320204
I loved the fact that they ignored their character development in this chart. Vader had 6 movies that showed how he became the best. Luke had 3 movies to show he he improved himself and defeated the Emperor. Han had 3 episodes that showed him going from a scumbag smuggler to a hero in the 3 movies.


Then we have Rey who is given everything out of the blue with no development. She's automatically great in the force and great with a lightsaber.

Apparently she's great at everything.
>>
>episode 9 ends with Luke, Rey and Ren all dying somehow
>the force vanishes from the galaxy, and people are left to their own devices, without having super powered asshole interfere with everything

best case scenario for the franchise.
>>
>>78321729

Honestly, I think her rematch with Kylo is not going to go her way. Badly.

She took him on at his absolute worst for that fight and he's going to be training just as much as she is.
>>
>>78321691

Patronizing someone will never endear them to you.

It just makes you come off as pretentious.
>>
>Ren
>Rey

This just makes the conversations confusing sometimes.
>>
>>78321662
By that breadth, doesnt Rey get plenty of help from Han, Chewwy, Fin, and the rebel alliance?

Also, an error in judgement is different than failing a task. His bad judgement caused an inconsequential bar fight. And things NOT happening is not the basis of an argument.
>>
>>78319741
So in this asshole's mind, only a misogynist would dare to criticize a female character? When will the hype die and people start using their fucking heads?
>>
>>78321774

But I need to feel BETTER than someone on the internet!
>>
>>78321465
"whether or not a character has flaws at all" is not subjective, but "what makes a character compelling" absolutely is because it doesn't at all start and end with "do they have flaws or not?"

Some people prefer a character to be a charismatic talker, while others like to follow an introvert.

Some people don't like stories where the protagonist is a villain or an asshole, other people prefer stories about bad guys over ones about "boring" people who "do the right thing".

Likeability and compelling-ness is absolutely subjective.
>>
>>78319741
>anyone can be interesting if they're written well
I mean, he's right and you can have interesting no.flaw characters; but Mary Sues are precisely the ones that are not well written.
also
>muhsoggyknees
>>
>>78321742
Have you read it?
>>78321750
I'm a high school English teacher making just under $40K a year. Spare me. And the caliber of the argument has never risen from the level you introduced it in - you invited me to argue the merits of storytelling and then became defensive when I said you were speaking in generalities. If you were really interested in an argument, you would have made one by now.

I'll remind you: your original statement was that character flaws are relative. I disagreed. Now do you want to have this discussion or not?
>>
>>78321762
>Then we have Rey who is given everything out of the blue with no development. She's automatically great in the force and great with a lightsaber.
>Apparently she's great at everything.

She's channeling the force hardcore, yo.

Also she rejects Han Solo's offer to join up with him & Chewie, runs away when Maz Kanata offers Luke's lightsaber, and gets herself captured by Kylo Ren for it..
>>
>>78321785

I like the people calling him Darth Bitchfit.
>>
>>78321712
But that's the initial denial to the call to action. Its not really a character flaw, its more of a storytelling trope and doesn't really inform Rey as a character in any way.

If, as part of her character, she was naturally indecisive and wishy-washy about all or most of her decisions pre-3rd act, you'd be right, but since she only shows the hesitance once in order to fulfill that aspect of the hero's journey, I would argue that its more an aspect of the story than an aspect of the character.
>>
>>78320839
She's more like a mechanic than a comp programmer and some mechanics do like hanging on scrapyards.
>>
The political correctness is strong in this thread.

Let's have some fun then; what would be some better, more racial and sexually inclusive names in order for the Star Wars cast to be brought into the 21st century?
>>
Usually people don't give a shit about contrarion opinions unless they hit close to the mark

The fact that so many people are bothered by others calling Rey a Mary Sue makes me think there are elements of truth in that claim
>>
300+ posts in under 2 hours.

Jesus Christ, /co/
>>
>>78319741
But he's not talking about Asohka.
>>
>>78321735
She learned not to run away. Star Wars movies are stories about choices, not about schoolwork.
>>
>>78321797
You're talking about character types, not character flaws.
>>
>>78321804
>Seeing as how many men across the globe subsidize and support Pro-Female propaganda in books, movies, cartoons, videogames, etc it's a proper assessment to come to the conclusion that most men are white knight faggots or mangina simps. It's because of these idiots that we keep on seeing this Gynocentric bullshit indoctrination trash everywhere in all media.
>By now after decades? Real sick of it.

You need to relax, you should go see a star war. I hear it's still got like three male characters for every female one.
>>
>>78321823

It can easily be both. Her actions go beyond a denial of the call to action into a serious issue with taking action in general.
>>
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Rey is a Mary Sue.

But she's a nice girl and it's Star Wars. People are willing to overlook her being a Mary Sue

Remember, female characters can be worse than Mary Sue

So much worse
>>
>>78321789
>By that breadth, doesnt Rey get plenty of help from Han, Chewwy, Fin, and the rebel alliance?
Not really. Most of the "help" she receives from her supporting cast comes in the form of weapons she's already competent at using, supportive words, and rides from one problem she has no trouble solving to another. They're more like her entourage than her equals.
>>
>>78321804
>this whole wall of autism
Its like a a wonderful Rothko piece
>>
>>78321818
He definitely inherited the Skywalker whiny bitch trait.
>>
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>this thread
>>
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>>78321836
Ol Dcuck
>>
>>78321823
>If, as part of her character, she was naturally indecisive and wishy-washy about all or most of her decisions pre-3rd act, you'd be right, but since she only shows the hesitance once in order to fulfill that aspect of the hero's journey, I would argue that its more an aspect of the story than an aspect of the character.

You're just going in circles, man.

She's repeatedly desperate to return to Jakku when Finn brings it up, when Han brings it up, and when Maz Kanata brings it up.

She only begins to learn to let go when Finn comes back for her on Starkiller Base.
>>
>>78321823
Actually, she refuses the call two or three times before that because she keeps wanting to go back to Jakku and wait for her parents.

The lightsaber refusal is more about fear and denial, it is a character moment.
>>
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>>78321836
Slave 1
>>
>>78321762
We're all gonna look pretty silly if all the fallibility of Rey is pushed back onto the next 2 movies.

Granted, this is the era where scoring political brownie points is more important than ever before, so the idea that a Strong Female Protagonist could start strong, and then falter later on, would invite a slew of commiserating articles about how Abrams "betrayed" Rey's fans, how he "set us back", and all that garbage. But something like that would put everyone who took a hard stance on this argument on tilt.
>>
>>78321871
Alright, when does the character show that hesitance besides the vision scene?
>>
>>78321887
I agree.

Like, compare Boyega acting as the gunner for Poe and Boyega acting as the gunner for Rey

With Poe he's gunning down all the targets, it's a fifty fifty divide

With Rey the Falcon's cannons jam, meaning Rey has to pull off a super special manuever so Finn, who is rendered useless, can make the shot
>>
>>78321804
>Seeing as how many men across the globe subsidize and support Pro-Female propaganda in books, movies, cartoons, videogames, etc

Reminder that your issues are nonexistant outside of your echo chamber.
>>
>>78321880
>western society collapsed
>anyone finding employment
>>
>>78321357
luke always wanted to leave and saw his family killed if front of him. So him going off is not the same as her hoping beyond hope that her family is coming back for her
>>
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>>78321916
>>
>>78320839
>hat guy should have beat her even while being a little bit injured.

Why do you just assume Kylo should be good at dueling? His training is unfinished too, he's had no competition until now, and he's clearly a fuckup.
>>
>>78321936
Is that why Male Characters Are Dumb but Female Characters are Smart? Nice try simp.
>>
>>78321922

On the falcon when she talks about how she needs to go back to Jakku.

When she's offered a place as a mechanic on the Falcon.
>>
>>78321816
>masters degree
>under 40k as a teacher
Id rather have the discussion of how you failed life this badly so far
>>
>>78320643
>sent him spiralling into space

Han shot Vader's Interceptor.
>>
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>>78321880
>When the USA goes completely bankrupt and cannot afford Feminism anymore. Feminism is expensive as hell to inject in academia, media, etc. And it doesn't really produce anything of merit for a society.
>Once Western Society really collapses then you'll see an end to Gynocentric nonsense. And guys like this asshole? He'll be thrown under a bus by women and despised by the men he insulted (meaning no likely employment for a male feminist).

This is a star wars thread, dude.

Preach your manifesto somewhere else, like /pol/
>>
>>78320939
She's fucking Jania Solo. How do you people not see that?
>>
>>78319994
Luke didn't spend all his formative years literally scavenging to survive, either.

He also didn't grow up with the Falcon as a part of his daily scenery.

And of course Solo fucking liked her. She's a young, pretty, competent woman. It's not like he hasn't shown a weakness for that type before.
>>
>>78321977

I'm not the 40k teacher.

HERESY!
>>
>>78321880
>When the USA goes completely bankrupt and cannot afford Feminism anymore. Feminism is expensive as hell to inject in academia, media, etc. And it doesn't really produce anything of merit for a society.
>Once Western Society really collapses then you'll see an end to Gynocentric nonsense. And guys like this asshole? He'll be thrown under a bus by women and despised by the men he insulted (meaning no likely employment for a male feminist).

If society collapses, then Gynocentrism will adapt. Stuff like Feminism may be gone, but human men will still be annoying stupid pussy beggars who will coddle women by pure instinctive default.

The world could suffer a thousand years of poverty and misery and men would still "provide and protect" women because "vagina is good yah." The only way to kill Gynocentrism is to bio-engineer it out of men itself. At that point there would be no human species.
>>
What the fuck was with the map? If Luke was so ashamed of what happened and decided to exile himself, why would he give the leave the means to find him? If R2D2 safely had the important part of the map, does this mean the other one was scattered on purpose? Why would Luke do that?
>>
>>78321808
Yeah, I've read it a couple of times. Can't say I agree with everything in it, but I get the gist of it. And I also know that using it as a roundabout way of establishing that the other person would already be agreeing with you if that person knew what they were talking about is amazingly condescending. That is almost exactly the sort of thing the other anon was talking about.
>>
>>78321977
I'm happy and employed. Failure is subjective.

Unlike character flaws, I might add.
>>
>>78321911
>>78321913
And in those cases, she knows what she wants and is denying the call to action to pursue it. At the time, its staying on Jakku to wait for her parents. She does show a conflict on that point, and does seem genuinely excited to join Han's crew, but ultimately she's never unsure. She never says "I don't know," or anything resembling it.

Its like calling Luke indecisive because he initially doesn't rush to take Obi Wan up on his offer to go to Alderaan. Its not that he's indecisive, he just decides not to follow the plot until it forces him to in the form of a roasted aunt and uncle.
>>
>>78321993
Here's what I don't get. Rey clearly remembers the family that dumped her on Jakku.

So if she's either Han or Luke's kid, how can she possibly not recognize her dad?
>>
>>78319851

>Professional farmer
Pick up a fucking pitchfork and you're a professional farmer.
>>
>>78320218
Neither is Rey.
>>
>>78319741
>I kinda even hate the term "character flaws" because it sounds like you're balancing an RPG stat sheet.
Now that he mentions it, it kind of does.
>>
>>78322013
Exactly.

Feminism exists because female nature is to extract maximum resources for minimum reciprocation.

So, they have a massive state dedicated to extracting resources and showering them upon women, they don't even pretend to respect men.
>>
>>78322028
I suggested it as a starting point if the other anon was really interested in actual philosophy. I don't care if it came across as condescending.

And I didn't introduce it as though the other anon would be agreeing with me if they were familiar with it. Agreement isn't the goal of argument. Now is someone going to talk about character flaws and storytelling or not?
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>>78321993
>She's fucking Jania Solo. How do you people not see that?

Because neither Leia nor Han recognizes her or mentions they have/had a daughter.

It would be sadistically cruel for them to abandon her on another planet and not acknowledge her even once she was of age.

She's either a Skywalker, Kenobi, or a deep cut character.
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>>78320333
Lando is the richest motherfucker in the galaxy who owns the mining rights to the most important medical resource.

Don't you fucking try to erase the only genuine badass
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>>78322026
Because he's still the most powerful hero in the galaxy and knows he'll be needed again one day?

Remember, Luke didn't JUST go into exile out of shame or to have a time out and grieve, he went looking for the ruins of the First Jedi Academy.
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she couldve been written better but shes not a fucking sue you tards

there isnt a "failure quota" for a character, and she was pretty shit at flying the falcon at the beginning
>>
How does criticizing a character with a term that just so happens to be a girl's name mean you hate women?
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>>78320588
How is she any more Mary Sue than Luke and Anakin?
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>>78322013
>>78322071

This is a Star Wars thread.
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>>78322070
Arguing the antecedent. Character flaws as a concept has existed long before tabletop RPGs. He's just incapable of coherent argument.
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>>78321507
>>78321522
>>78321618
Hi tumblr!
Max is 100% right, go back to you're hugbox
>>
>>78321808

> Your original statement was that character flaws are relative

No, it wasn't. This is why I said you lack the reading comprehension to understand my argument.
>>
>>78322098
>there isnt a "failure quota" for a character
1 tends to be a good start.
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>>78322102
Everyone called Anakin a shithead for two movies. Were kinda pissed off at a kid being sucked off so hard in the first.

Luke gets beaten, soundly, several times.

She wins everything, every time.
>>
>>78322098
>Asking /co/ to drop one of its favourite meme buzzwords
keep dreaming pal.
The day we stop spouting Reddit, Edgy, Mary Sue, /v/, /tv/ and Tumblr is the day we have actual discussions.
And that day is never.
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>>78319795
It's an ideal 'tag not-it forever' move for online debate.
>>
>>78322132
Ugh, can you not?
>>
http://screenrant.com/star-wars-7-force-awakens-original-trilogy-comparison/

>DON'T COMPARE TFA TO THE ORIGINAL TRILOGY REEEEEEEE!
>>
>>78322108

You go girl!
>>
>>78322144
>Ugh

Literally can't even right now
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>>78322039
You're not arguing that she doesn't have flaws there, you're just arguing that the flaw isn't "indecisiveness", when no one actually said it was.
>>
>>78319851
The guy also lost his hand in his first fight with Vader and got ass thoroughly handed to him even after a decent amount of training. Rey literally just picks up a lightsaber and is able to beat Kylo Ren.
>>
>>78322124
Telling people that disagree with you to go away? Sounds like you're the one used to a hugbox, Or more likely, a containment board.
>>
I think the problem is that Rey is a Star Wars character. And that may seem dumb to say. But the characters people love the most in the films are usually not Star Wars characters but people that felt like someone you could actually know or at least someone you could see in some regular film.

Han, Luke and Leia are all rooted in the same sort of character traits and archetypes you'd see in high school and teen movies at the time. NOT space opera.

Finn and Poe seem like they might've fallen through a portal from our world and just happened to get caught up in Star Wars shit.

Meanwhile Rey seems like she was specifically written to only ever be for Star Wars. She clashes with the rest of the movie because she's an inaccessible protagonist who's rooted in looking inward at the franchise instead of bringing things from outside.

Also, they're totally setting her up to go over to the Dark Side. Luke's gonna straight up refuse her probably because of the shit that went down with Ben Solo before he became Kylo Ren. Rey's gonna look elsewhere and she's gonna go over to the Dark Side. You don't make someone this powerful unless you're setting up a fall. Even if a lot of their skills are accounted for by the narrative at hand.
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>>78322102
She pretty much is Anakin but with all of his shit qualities shunted over to Kylo Ren
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>>78320195
>Anakin
>Mary sue
Anakin was portrayed as a prodigy, but easy to manipulate and with obvious flaws that a lot of people, specially Obi Wan and Windu pointed
The most mary sue he was, was in ep one
>>
>>78319851
Luke was also whiny, naive and impatient, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere in ANH without Han or Ben.

And let's not forget how easily he gave up on lifting his X-Wing out of the swamp, or the time he rushed off without finishing his training to fight Vader. And got his ass kicked.
>>
>>78322062
>Finn immediately loves her
>Han immediately loves her
>Throw away line about Chewie liking her
>Leia, who doesn't know this person, gives her a tearful embrace
>Orange thing likes her and tells her she has the force

Yup, Rey isn't that at all
>>
>>78322100
Only women-haters criticize something as stunning, brave and important for women as Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

>>78322108
Close, this is a shitposting thread with a popular movie as the topic.
>>
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"Mary sue" only means "competent female"
The movie is amazing and all of you are just being contrarians as usual. God forbid there is a positive role model for girls out there, we can't have that, oh fuck no!
>>
>>78322092
But why would he make it a struggle for people to find where he is by purposely separating the pieces and hiding it instead of just handing it to Obi Wan and whispering "hey, find me when things get REALLY bad okay?"
>he went looking for the ruins of the First Jedi Academy
That also doesn't make sense to me. Presumably the island they found him on was the site of the First Jedi Academy. How did the map lead to him if he didn't know where his destination was?
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>>78322166
Yeah maybe that's because Vader is a fucking master who's always calm and composed and Kylo is a tantrum-throwing novice.

It's not the hero's fault with the villain is a pussy, man.
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>>78322194
>Finn immediately loves her
lol
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>>78319972

But Vader is one of the best duelists of all time. So far as we know, Kylo is Episode 3 Anakin-tier at best.
>>
>>78322215
>"Mary sue" only means "competent female"
>>
>>78322215
tumblr, please stop.
>>
While I don't like how this guy is going about it, I do agree with him in the sense that people think that "adding flaws" automatically makes a character better or good. It really is like balancing an RPG character.
>>
>>78322194
>>Leia, who doesn't know this person, gives her a tearful embrace

Maybe Leia knew she was Luke's daughter
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>>78322163
Read the reply chain. I said that fulfilling the trope of the initial denial to the call to action isn't necessarily a character flaw, unless its supported by other acts of indecision or weakness.
When Rey is resolute about staying on Jakku, that's not weakness or indecision, its just pursuing something other than the plot, again, with resolution.

If you think it is a character flaw, that's fine, but then that flaw is extended to basically every character that goes through the hero's journey with little exception, because its integral to humanizing them.
>>
>>78322166
after the dude was shot with a blaster that propels normal people back several yards and was wounded a bit by Fin
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>>78319772
I wouldn't mind her being a Mary Sue if she had a personality
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>>78322124
>Hi tumblr!
>Max is 100% right, go back to you're hugbox

Hi Max!
How does it feel being increasingly irrelevant?
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>>78322158
>D-don't call them the new Female Ghostbusters...
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>>78322220
Maybe he sent the map to Max Von Sydow fairly recently, after he found the place?

That's why the portion R2 had was of the rest of the galaxy, when he left R2, he only knew "somewhere in this sector I guess"
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>>78322127
If we have to do this, fine.

>The simple fact is, however, that we don't really know what makes one character compelling and another not so

The argument was about character flaws and compelling characters. Is saying that what makes a character compelling is relative, you were saying what constituted a character flaw is relative.

If your argument is that people liking bad characters means those characters aren't poorly written, confusing, or boring, you're not being rational. If your response to this is "everything is relative," I'd like for you to go deeper.

Now, if you're done ad homming, let's have a discussion.
>>
>>78322261
And having no flaws at all is better isn't?
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>>78322233
It's shocking just how incompetent he and Finn are. Like jesus man Kylo can freeze anything including blaster bolts with the force but gets his ass handed to him by a clumsy nigger and a girl that's been using the Force for about an hour.
Finn was supposedly trained to be a soldier from birth but is not only so mentally weak he defects in his first combat and he was apparently used as a janitor (what the fuck)
>>
>>78320066
>you've still effectively ripped the balls off of a character who MUST fight Rey again in future installments,

yeah, because kylo didn't just eat an explosion, take a bowcaster to the chest, kill his own father, AND take some glancing blows from a trained melee fighter.
>>
>>78322261
Fuck off Diaz
>>
i'm having a hard time finding anything wrong with those tweets

and i fucking hate aaron diaz
>>
>>78319741
>I kinda even hate the term "character flaws"
Of course you would, Aaron.
>>
>>78322087
here is the question i have: is Luke that much of a dick to not let Leia or Han know they have a niece? we know that he had at least a couple of years where shit was not completely fucked up and was around them training their kid. so it is Luke's kid then one of them should know
>>
>>78322279
I'm arguing she was afraid to accept her destiny in the lightsaber scene, expressing a completely different motivation than in the previous scenes where she repeatedly denies the call to fill in the blank on the Hero's Journey scorecard.

And that is a valid character flaw.
>>
>>78322294
R2D2 has the most important of the map didn't he? I might be wrong.
Besides if he sent a map back after finding the place and being alright with being called back into action, why not just return himself instead of making people come to him?
Also the idea of an entire map being necessary instead of just coordinates seems odd to me.
>>
>>78322319
Maybe you are just a racist and a sexist?
Go back to /Pol/
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>>78322350
from a certain point of view, they DONT HAVE a niece.
>>
>>78322215
Gotta be more subtle-

Actually, scratch that. You're gonna get a dozen replies.
>>
>>78322261
>I do agree with him in the sense that people think that "adding flaws" automatically makes a character better or good.

No one thinks that. It's a strawman. Character flaws are integral parts of character building and storytelling. Comparing either to RPGs just shows the gross limitations of Diaz's intellectual experiences.
>>
>>78322280
That wound only seemed to be relevant in the fight with Finn, didn't slow him down at all later. Kylo's wildly incompetent though, doesn't even use his Force powers in duels. Wonder if Lord stupidname trained him wrong on purpose.
>>
>>78322289
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Leslie-Jones-Has-Perfect-NSFW-Message-Her-Ghostbusters-Haters-100797.html

Classy Ghostbusters there.
>>
>>78322336
Even if you have no problem with Rey, do you really agree there's no such thing as a mary sue?
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>>78322215
>>
>>78322305

No, it's actually not saying it at all. It's not claiming that character flaws are relative. It's saying that we don't have access to our internal emotional states that can rationally explain why we find certain traits compelling or not. It makes absolutely no claims about the character flaws being relative or not whatsoever.

Again, this is why I said you lack the reading comprehension to understand my argument.

> B-B-BUT MUH AD-HOMS
>coming from the guy whose first reply was "read a book"

Nah, I'll keep up with the ad homs, you insufferable stupid faggot.
>>
>>78322377
Actually, character flaws are the only ways that broken people can identify with fictional characters. They're afraid of idealized people and can't handle a properly written character.
>>
>>78322376
>>78322391
Ugh ... being right is now trolling?
I hate this place
>>
>>78321552
He has strong opinions, some of which are right and some of which are wrong, and he has dumb fashion sense. The latter magnifies /co/'s hate for the former.
>>
>>78322422
>EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS JUST BROKEN
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>>78322430
>>
>>78322350
Rey seems to remember her family. Wouldn't she know if Luke's her dad?
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>>78321886
Dude, give the hateboner a rest. Korra wasn't that bad.
>>
>>78322444
nice digits
>>
>>78322350
>is Luke that much of a dick to not let Leia or Han know they have a niece?

When Kylo Ren mindreads Rey he talks about a Knight desperate for sleep, which seem to be Luke. So Luke might just be completely burned out and unwilling to deal with anything.

>we know that he had at least a couple of years where shit was not completely fucked up and was around them training their kid. so it is Luke's kid then one of them should know

Hamill has said in the past he imagines Luke going celibate and not having and kids. I imagine her parentage was kept secret from everyone for a reason.

It's not so cut and dry. I'm now leaning more towards her not being related to anyone important at all, the ultimate twist in Star Wars.
>>
>>78319772
She was barely a character
Doing things is not necessarily the same thing as having a personality and becoming stronger is not the same as character development.
>>
>>78322359
If all you have is BB8's part, you have a map of the system Luke's planet is in, but you don't know where in the galaxy that system is.

R2 had the rest of the map, the part that shows the whole galaxy, with a small chunk missing. It's the part that gives context to BB8's part.
>>