The writer of the biggest Mary Sue in webcomics defends the biggest Mary Sue in Star Wars.
She was honestly one of the most obnoxious things in the movie. I didn't mind Finn, I didn't mind Han being a shit smuggler again for no reason, I didn't even mind Kylo/Ben being evil again for pretty much no reason that is explained to us, but Rei's entire character frustrated me.
Judging by the promotional material Rei is an immaculate supermodel despite being a desert scavenger. Is she dirtier in the movie or is this justified in any way? Seems hilariously retarded.
Rey was fine, and Aaron Diaz tries to prove he's the most progressive person around but acts like a tool. Nothing new. Just because he's a moron doesn't mean you have to always take the exact opposite position he does.
That's just Diaz trying to reassure himself that his Ashley Burch insert character isn't a Mary Sue.
Which she is.
>nigga thinks character flaws are a bad thing
Because of course he does.
Fucking go away Diaz.
I can't see how Superman can be seen as a mary sue. They try to give him flaws and humanize him all the time to counteract the public's perception of "HE'S THE STRONGEST OF ALL TIME HE'S BORING"
Batman wears that sue label like his cape tho.
>implying rei wasn't about the same as luke in terms of mary sue-ness
>SHE LEARNS THE FORCE TOO QUICKLY AND SHES TOO GOOD
>Luke fucking blew up the entire deathstar/conquered the immediate empire in a single movie going from being a simple farm boy
Depends on the story. Superman is definitely a Sue sometimes. Like in ASS, where he played the role of immaculate cosmic Jesus. There is no way in hell you can say with a straight face that wasn't some serious suedom.
Landis is completely fucking right about Rey. Can you imagine if Luke beats Darth Vader in a duel at the end of A New Hope? Wouldn't that fucking suck? Its exactly what happens in The Force Awakens and it fucking sucks.
But Luke wasn't a super special mechanic that fixed the Falcon in ways that Solo never figured and Solo didn't immediately like Luke and make him his best buddy and tell him he's going to be his new first mate even though he had never piloted before then.
>Just because he's a moron doesn't mean you have to always take the exact opposite position he does.
Smarter words than anything people like Aaron have ever said. Hell, smarter than 80% of twitter.
Mary Sue is a pretty overused term, it's even used on characters who aren't OP like Supes or Bats. Unless it's a pretty shitty storyline I don't think Mary Sue applies to either.
Batman is too flawed to be a Mary Sue, since getting as strong as he does usually alienates a ton of people.
Not really, it doesn't really say anything about character or how they use their skill. Making a balanced character could just lead to a boring character.
Do people really care if they're spoiled on this movie?
> Can you imagine if Luke beats Darth Vader in a duel at the end of A New Hope? Wouldn't that fucking suck?
Han Solo beat Darth Vader.
>Skilled melee fighter
>New Captain of the Millennium Falcon
She's not a cunt, but jesus
In "A New Hope" Luke was a bit cocky, whiny & naive.
>Blaster user & Perfect Shot
Someone wrote a decent editorial about how Rey's a pretty big Mary Sue but we tolerate male characters having little difficulty mastering powers and showing hyper-competency is a bunch of areas while still seeming down-on-their-luck or down to earth.
I didn't entirely agree with it but it did make me okay with Rey's competency.
But he's her main antagonist. I don't care how "badass" he's supposed to be, you've still effectively ripped the balls off of a character who MUST fight Rey again in future installments, but since we already know who's objectively strongest regardless of any amount of training from sheer talent alone, there's no tension.
The only way it could work is if Kylo gets redeemed and Rey falls to the darkside in the same movie.
>Kylo gets shot with a bowcaster
>Is losing his shit after what he just did
>Gets wounded in at least two limbs
>So badly hurt he has to punch his own wounds to keep awake
>Still wins one duel and survives another
Kylo was going fucking above and beyond
Yes, Luke was able to be useful after an entire movie of getting his shit wrecked and growing as a character.
Meanwhile Rey can handle any problem presented to her from minute one and inherits the most recognizable images in the Star Wars franchise just by nature of being present and super talented at everything and loved by everyone.
>but since we already know who's objectively strongest
We have not seen them fight when Kylo wasn't already half dead from the start. The most we know is that Rey can resist Kylo's mind tricks.
>Getting his shit wrecked
I'm having a hard time remembering any time he got his shit wrecked.
I mean the closest I can think of is he had to run away like a bitch but up until that point he didn't have much trouble.
Whatever I noticed Rey was a Mary Sue, but it never bothered me. If they want to make her a Mary sue they should have embraced it and gone full ham with it.
I think my only complaint about the movie was that I wanted Finn to actually feel more useful, he was cool and all but just ends up being everyone's punching bag and doesn't really bring much to the team
I always thought ti was implied Anakin was implied to be like that force baby Palpatine talked about, but I've only see that trilogy once so I might have made it up to try to make his shit make more sense.
his balls "were ripped" when we see him cry over Vader's helmet
>who MUST fight Rey again in future installments
Why is that? If anything, the trope dictates she will help him against Snoke with Ben redeeming himself.
>loved by everyone
I haven't seen the movie, but this is the defining characteristic of a Sue for me. Almost everyone loves them for no apparent reason, and the people who don't are all incompetent jealous idiots. Luke isn't like that.
I watched those movies the other day, he's literally space jesus. His mom said there was no father and that he was immaculately conceived and then everyone kept going on about how it was the force. That, and apparently he had a super high midichlorian count or whatever the shit.
>trash compactor scene
>Vader almost fucks him up before Han saves him
Did you even watch the OT? After years of training he still gets his shit destroyed by the Emperor.
I like to reserve the use of the term Mary Sue for characters that are obvious self inserts.
Rey wasn't a Mary Sue, but she was portrayed as being almost completely flawless and she really didn't have anything to lose throughout the thing.
>Got his shit wrecked by sand people, saved by Ben
>Was about to get his shit wrecked in the Cantina, saved by Ben again
>Spends the entirety of the Death Star escape sequence following someone else. Gets saved from being trash compacted by R2-D2
>Is about to get his shit blown away by Vader while running the trench, gets saved by Han Solo turning up just in time to give Luke the shot he needs
Rey is never supported this way. Her supporting cast just gives her weapons and rides to the next problem so she can solve it.
We haven't seen Kylo at his strongest. We saw him injured, throwing a tantrum and with incomplete training against Rey who pulled a "use the force Luke" and used her quarterstaff style with a lightsaber. Again, Kylo Ren is not Vader. He wasn't here to be the unstoppable force like Vader was.
This isn't particularly surprising, since there's an active movement in amateur writer circles right now promoting the ideas that there's nothing wrong with wanting to write flawless characters, "Mary Sue" as a label stifles creativity, and authors should be actively encouraged to write self-insert fantasies. It's part of a greater effort to "remove negativity" from writer's circles and, subsequently, their writing itself.
I'm really not sure what to make of it, but it's been bewildering me for months, and started slightly before the last National Novel Writing Month. If you dig around a bit, you'll find that "Mary Sue and Proud" has become like, an actual thing.
>Having flaws is a bad thing.
>Being fallible is a bad thing.
>Stories should only involve the protagonist being able to easily overcome large obstacles with little to no effort.
>The protagonist of a story should also be able to do all tasks, especially ones just learned, with minimal effort and as if they had been trained for years.
K. This is just bullshit honestly and things you learn not to do in, like, Creative Writing 101. Why do these people write this drivel when they clearly don't know how to tell good or even adequate stories? These are the type of people who only watch movies or play video games and try to become competent writers.
>I like to reserve the use of the term Mary Sue for characters that are obvious self inserts.
Mary Sue as self-insert is a character who shares author's flaws but is treated by the world the way author feel they deserve. Including carrying out revenge to those who wrong them.
It doesn't really need self-insert for the same effect. It might be a paragon of author's views. Or just a pet character.
You mean his uncle was. We never see Luke doing shit except being told to "Help with the harvest."
He can clean them if that's what you mean. He couldn't even identify a faulty droid until after it exploded. I guess he wanted to go buy some "Power-converters." at least?
>Blaster user and perfect shot
He could shoot local pests with a gun. He used the force to auto-aim into the death star.
>Deflects... blah blah
Not really, Princess Leia immediately called him out and they blew their cover.
>Just happens blah blah...
That was R2's doing though.
It's not even a millenial thing really, I mean if you look at the dime store novels and pulp serials that Star Wars was inspired by you'll find the exact same thing. Rey could never be as big of a Mary Sue as someone like Doc Savage.
Bust this: Those movies are about how the white man keeps the brother man down, even in a galaxy far, far away. Check this shit: You got cracker farm boy Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy, blond hair, blue eyes. And then you got Darth Vader, the blackest brother in the galaxy, Nubian god!
Now... Vader, he's a spiritual brother, y'know, down with the force and all that good shit. Then this cracker, Skywalker, gets his hands on a light saber and the boy decides he's gonna run the fuckin' universe; gets a whole clan of whites together. And they go and bust up Vader's hood, the Death Star.
Now what the fuck do you call that?
They gon' drive out the black element to make the galaxy quote, unquote, safe for white folks. And Jedi's the most insulting installment! Because Vader's beautiful black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty, old white man! They tryin' to tell us that deep inside we all wants to be white!
Luke was also whiny as fuck and stupid overconfident. For proof, see him being whiny to his foster family and Han in ANH and stupid overconfident in ESB.
Han fucked up all the time. Like that time he got caught and all his skills didn't get him out of getting his ass frozen. Also he has shit people skills.
Anakin was also a whiny bitch who became the Emperor's bitch, doing bitch work for 20 some odd years. When the Emperor tells him to suck his dick, he remembers to swallow.
And then outsmarts her captors, escapes, and beats her personal antagonist in both physical combat and a battle of wills with no training of any kind?
Is it really fucking up if the character isn't forced to grow in some way due to the fuck up?
Kylo was fucking handicapped and injured in his lightsaber fight with her, and when Rey beats him in a battle of wills, it's not a testament to her power, it's a testament to how mentally weak Kylo actually is.
Luke is saved tons of times in the original trilogy, he is saved by obi wan in the bar, by leia, obi-wan again againts vader, by han in hoth, etc. Even at the end he is saved by Vader againts the emperor. Luke was a good character because they were not trying to write a "STRONG INDEPENDENT CHARACTER WHO NEEDS NO MAN" they were trying to write a hero rising againts all odds.
He got owned by a Sand Person at the beginning of a New Hope, he almost got raped at the Catina, he got tentacle raped in the trash compactor, Vader was about to rape his boipussi in the X-Wing vs Tie Fighter Death Star fight
And that's just a New Hope!
>If you think Mary Sue is a valid and meaningful criticism of a character, there's a very good chance you're a misogynist
So does this guy think male characters aren't accused of being Mary Sues then?
I can confirm, there's posts going around tumblr recently about "destigmatizing" author wish fulfillment narratives and actively encouraging writers to experiment with stories about characters who are infallible as a form of personal empowerment.
Luke does not rescue Leia. Han and Ben do. Luke is literally just following orders, and even then only being marginally useful.
Like the order to go get the Princess while Han deals with the console in the detention block?
There are two times in the Death Star escape sequence where Luke is useful. When he swings across the trench using the grappling hook, and when he thinks to call R2 and C3PO to shut off the trash compactor, and he's begging for his life when he does so.
>Blaster user and perfect shot
>Deflects laser blasts with lightsaber
>Destroys Death Star using the force after one hour of instruction
All of these are explainable via the fact that he's a latent Force user. He had to learn how to get in touch with the Force, and then the Force did the rest. He only had one lesson to learn in order to be able to do everything he had to do in the movie.
Rey is female Kira Yamoto
Rey is not female Luke Skywalker
You may now go on watching cartoons about fat lesbians
>the public's perception of "HE'S THE STRONGEST OF ALL TIME HE'S BORING"
This IS him being seen as a Mary Sue. He's overpowered and perfect, therefore he's boring. That's what Mary Sue means when applied to characters like Superman.
I didn't mind her either, but the force mind control thing was really, really bad. It was the only moment I became upset at the movie, that and
everyone forgetting Han Solo a few minutes later
If Rey was a male I doubt people would be defending her
No offense to her actress. Her actress was great. But the character is obnoxiously perfect.
She pilots the millenium falcon better than han, she is an expert mechanic, she is perfectly capable of understanding how to use the force without training or guidance and she is capable of using a lightsaber at the same level than people who had been training with them for years. She doesn't need anyone, the rest of the characters are filler.
The thing is, Superman's struggles aren't physical, but he does struggle internally. Or at least he's supposed to when he's handled by someone competent. That's why things like "Why don't you put the whole world in a bottle, Superman" is so potent. Superman is always trying to do the right thing, but knowing what the right thing is in all situations isn't fucking possible.
Rey is actually never challenged in TFA.
>Rey has spent her whole life living in piece of shit junk piles like the Falcon
>Has to know parts and how they work because she scavenges and sells them
>Knows what modifications were done to the ship
>Han has not seen the Falcon in YEARS, and it has been modified by at least three people since he last was in it
Personally, as a reader, not a writer, I feel that "What are character's flaws" is a flawed concept. Unless you make some kind of didactic thematic thing. One man's flaws is another man's virtue anyway.
What is the character like and what do they want and what can they do. What you should try to avoid is looking like you have pets, have world react realistically to your character and don't insist on punishing or vilifying any detractors. This tends to get jarring.
>Skilled Melee fighter
I have to go into depth with this one. She pilots the Falcon, a ship optimized for Zero gravity, under the normal gravity of a planet, through the derelict wreckage of a Imperial Cruiser, and around trained Tie fighter pilots.
Now, I'll give her the saber battle. Ren was shot, mentally unstable, and tired from his battle with Finn.
>New Captain of the Millennium Falcon
I just fucking explain this one to you. It is what it is.
The Movie is 7/10, but there are some serious flaws here.
>there's an active movement in amateur writer circles right now promoting the ideas that there's nothing wrong with wanting to write flawless characters
You mean in a "guilty pleasure" way? If they're not delusional and understand that no one will want to read that shit and it's just for them, I can understand it.
>The thing is, Superman's struggles aren't physical, but he does struggle internally. Or at least he's supposed to when he's handled by someone competent.
Golden Age Superman really didn't, and those stories kind of kick ass. Hell, Silver Age Superman usually wasn't that emotionally challenged either. You're talking from a purely Bronze Age forward interpretation of the character, and arguably not his strongest era.
Pilots better than Han?
That's a strong argument to make considering we never saw them go head to head and she spent most of her flight going 'Oh god, I'm trying anything I can to make this work'. I seriously doubt she could have made the landing on Starkiller Base.
She also manages to beat a guy in a lightsaber duel who's been shot and slashed up with a lightsaber already. Kylo Ren had been shot in the gut with a bowcaster and taken some nasty hits against Finn already.
The Mechanic part was a clearly established part of her backstory as a scavenger.
The force came a bit faster than most but Ezra Bridger pushed shit with the force with no training so it looks like it's not something that's impossible without training.
Also, I totally forgot to add the fact that she was able to not only combat and resist Kylo's force mind tricks, but was able to go into his mind and extract information as well.
Hell, all of this can be forgiven if my friend is telling the truth:
He actually works for Disney in a writing capacity and claims that Rey was the student who destroyed Luke's new Jedi training camp, which is why she was exiled on Jakku. It's the fact that the Dark side of the force is fueled by passion and rage that causes Rey to be so adept in the areas that she shines in
She's not overconfident or spunky, her character is actually somewhat blandly serious. My only real complaint with her was that they didn't let her be fun or funny like Poe and Finn and BB8.
Honestly people are going to bitch, but this guy has a point
I think part of it is because of the politicized environment we're in. When a male character gets shit-talked and then displays surprising competence, it's just seen as an individual action. When a female character gets shit-talked and then displays surprising competence, it's almost always played for "WHOA U MISOGYNIST MEN THOUGHT THAT A GIRL COULDN'T DO THIS WELL GUESS WHAT BOYS GRRL POWER MOVE OVER"
To give a more familiar example: There IS a sort of dynamic like this going on with Luke in the originals. There's a bit of a "Simple farm boy" vs. "Sophisticated city slicker" kind of thing going on between him and Han. Not played up too much, of course, but it's there. And, if you were looking for it, some moments COULD come across as "YEAH IN YOUR FACE CITY DWELLERS FARM BOYS CAN DO THIS SHIT TOO." The thing is, sadly, that I don't think that country vs. city is nearly as politicized nowadays as women vs. men is.
Nah he'd be the new major protagonist of an overhyped series with tons of fans, he'd be getting compared to everyone who preceded him and whether or not he was a worthy legacy or whatever and would have to compete with everyones warped vision of what that should be.
Kylo Ren is good character with interesting motivations and internal struggle. But very weak main villain in an action-adventure story. The ginger general was better as the villain, he should be the "final boss" and if you could not do action with him, should have given some fucking room the chief storm-trooper.
I do know there are established reasons why he is weak in the final confrontation (being heavily wounded, emotionally unstable), but it just sucks if the main boss is a little bitch.
you know. in hindsight its kindof funny Luke's background and skillset NEVER gets used. at best, you just have the "I used to bullseye wamprats in my T-16.."
And there is the noting he intended to join the Resistance as a pilot.
But the actual moisture farming, etc. nothing. not even when they return to Tatoonie for Jabba.
more typical writing would have had him infiltrate Jabba's palace as a water merchant or something..
I think she's a decent character. I liked her. I just think they made her too perfect and I don't think she really had anything at stake in the movie. It all came very easy to her.
Luke was going to get killed by raiders without Obi-wans help
Luke was going to get his ass beat by bar flies without hans help
Luke was going to going to get crushed in the trash compactor without R2's help.
Luke would've been killed in the trench run, if it weren't for the unfortunate fucks that took the shelling from the back with him the lead.
Luke would've been killed by Vader, if it weren't for Han saving his ass to make the shot.
Luke got his ass kicked by Vader, needed Leia & Lando to save his ass.
Luke would've been a Jedi medium rare steak if it weren't for his own Dad.
>I think I can handle myself!
I myself think it's bullshit, which is why Rey's character can't be forgiven so easily.
If my friend is putting on, which I know he is, then Rey is a Mary Sue. Only the dark side could explain how she literally out maneuvered Kylo Ren with the force on several occasions.
Other people have explained that, because she's never forced to grow as a character due to those supposed flaws, they aren't actually flaws.
You're just so obsessed with sounding "moderate" that you refuse to call a spade a spade.
She's not a Mary Sue, she's Hoak Hogan with tits - right down to the fact that most of her allies are afterthoughts. And that's even worse.
Replace her with peak Hulkamania Hogan, and nothing changes.
>That's a strong argument to make considering we never saw them go head to head
That's what Han says.
>She also manages to beat a guy in a lightsaber duel who's been shot and slashed up with a lightsaber already.
He was a little bit rough up, but she never used a lightsaber before that point, that guy should have beat her even while being a little bit injured.
>The Mechanic part was a clearly established part of her backstory as a scavenger.
Yes scavenger are well known for being tech engineers. When i have a problem with my computer i call the scraptyard.
>The force came a bit faster than most but Ezra Bridger pushed shit with the force with no training so it looks like it's not something that's impossible without training.
I don't care about non-canon shit, the force needs to be trained to be use to the level that she was using it.
That's not a Mary Sue trait though. He states in the briefing scene that he used to fly and shoot womp rats all the time back home. He's the Star Wars equivalent of a redneck kid who's a good shot because he goes out and shoots squirrels and shit all the time.
>People can't accept a competent woman character
Ridley from Alien
Sarah Connor from Terminator
Ahsoka from Star Wars Clone Wars
These are competent female characters and are pretty awesome, and guess what they have flaws and learn from their mistakes
>You know, I can take anything from you I want
>JUST TRY IT, BROTHER
This is true.
The only EU thing I ever read was Death Troopers and Han and Chewie are shoe-horned into that really awkwardly and as soon as they show up they're made completely immune to the zombine virus.
Eh, she was a much worse shot than Finn (She fucked up firing the pistol and has about the lowest stormtrooper kill count in the entire series for a protagonist) and she's got her own emotional issues that mirror Kylo Ren's.
She's a light side mirror to him. Powerful in the force but with emotional issues related to belonging and family. He's more trained but more unstable, she's a bit more focused but so far untrained (Hence trying to use the lightsaber like a spear for most of the fight)
Nah, the new cartoons and books (Including Rebels) are canon.
So a Ex-Padawan who's spent most of his life trying to avoid his force powers (According to his book) can use the Mind Trick.
That's not true, she had to try it multiple times before it worked.
And the speed with which she learns to use the force is consistent with the original trilogy. It's supposed to be this thing that guides you and takes the wheel for you if you believe hard enough, not the "you literally go to an academy and train from childhood to adulthood" thing that George fucked up and made it into in the prequels.
Plus Kylo was shitty at fighting and wounded. I don't know where all this shit that Rey was too good too soon is even coming from.
Luke was the child of one of the greatest Force users in recent history, had guidance by another of the greatest and used it to guide a shot in "don't think, feel" samurai movie fashion.
Rei is doing fucking Jedi mind trick shit after an hour, shit that we only see Obi-Wan and Luke after training under Yoda do in the OT.
>Luke would've been a Jedi medium rare steak if it weren't for his own Dad.
The rest of these you have points on, but Lucas said Luke would've been able to go in there and curbstomp both Vader and Palpatine if he really wanted to. He didn't because he knew that lowering his guard would be the only way to get Vader to show compassion. If he hadn't tossed his saber away he'd have had no problem dealing with Palpatine's sparklers.
The difference is her "flaws" don't affect her actions or competency in any way.
In that sense, the movie would be way more interesting told from the point of view of Kylo. Even with all his anger and training and his black robes and one-of-a-kind lightsaber and with an army at his back, he just can't measure up to this girl who seems perfect in every way. He kills his father to try to be but it doesn't work and all he's left with is failure.
Kylo is so clearly the best part of the movie.
If any rando can pick up a lightsaber and use it than why don't more people fight with lightsabers
Of all the EU things to undo why would you undo only Jedi/Sith being able to wield lightsabers, eg., the only part of the EU that really made sense
Well I'm glad we have concluded that the film was made for people who enjoy things instead of pedantic shitheads that look for reasons to get angry at girls being good at things in popular media
Glad movies are getting made for me and not you, pham
>I kinda even hate the term "character flaws" because it sounds like you're balancing an RPG stat sheet. No one should write like that"
How are Character Flaws a bad thing? Even Kenshiro was able to fail in Fist of the North Star, and he's basically the definition of a flawless character.
He puts ketchup on his steak
If that's the case, then I don't see how the trend of relentlessly mocking old pulp fiction can continue. How can one make fun of that stuff for being bombastic and over-the-top, and then turn around and make something just as corny? And it's always amateur writers and caustic critics that do that shit, so there would be plenty of hypocrisy involved if this takes off.
Nah, she isn't a mary sue. Mary sues don't have flaws.
I dunno how to describe it exactly, but somebody who's told she's a Jedi and offered a free lightsaber and turns it down has got to have something wrong in the head.
Her flaws are the entire reason she got grabbed, knocked out and captured by Kylo Ren. That is how Uninjured, Focused Kylo Ren vs Her went.
If her friends hadn't turned up to help her, she'd have been spread all over the ground when she encountered Ren trying to make her way to a ship or just killed by the huge amounts of AA Starkiller base had.
Both of those are agreeing? They are saying that movies, cartoons and books are canon.
The thing was never that only Jedi/Sith can use them, it's that they can only be proficient enough with them for stuff like blocking shots, or twirling them around without maiming themselves.
Also I'm assuming that Finn is force-sensitive just not as powerful as Rey. Because otherwise Finn being able to fight Kylo Ren somewhat competently is a much bigger problem than Rey being able to beat him, t b h.
There aren't that many sabers in existence, I think constructing one actually requires force powers.
Plus you could accidentally cut yourself to pieces so it's a personal choice thing, like "Well I could fight with this, but it's just as fucking dangerous to me as to my opponent".
Why do so many people use guns in the real world? Because it's WAY fucking easier to kill someone with a gun than learning to fucking fence.
>Rey would have been blased by TIE fighters without Finn's knowledge and manning the guns
>Rey doesn't even know to take the safety off, is lousy shot
>Rey gets bodied by Kylo Ren, is saved only because she's seen the map and gets easily knocked out and kidnapped
>Only able to out-mindrape Ren because he gets cocky and mind reads extraneous backstory shit and pisses her off
>Rey still needed to get bailed out by Han, Finn, and Chewie.
>Rey would've gotten her ass kicked by Ren if he wasn't bleeding out and not trying to kill her
>Would have died on an exploding sunplanet mourning her husbando were it not for Chewie finding her in the Falcon.
Basically, blame Ren
I'm sure people have called her a mary sue, a lot of people get called that in the internet age. However I can at least say that personally I don't think she is a Mary Sue.
She had stakes to fight for, she had purpose. She failed at things and learned throughout the series.
However Rey just tries things and they work, she just knows it. Whatever if you like Rey or other people like her that's fine, however she is a Mary Sue. I for one don't think her being a Mary Sue is a bad thing, but it does need to be full ham and embraced if you want to go that route with her
>Luke tosses saber away and leaves himself directly open
Luke is shown to be an entirely different animal in ROTJ from start to finish. All it took to get Palpatine was lift him up. Hell Luke didn't even get disfigured or horribly burned from lightning like some do.
Lucas created the whole series and his word on the first six movies is final regardless. I know it's popular to hate the guy because of some mediocre prequel movies but that's the bottom line. There's nothing in that scene that suggests Luke wouldn't have been able to take both of them. The scene is presented as Luke refusing to fight at all because that's the way he knows will win the battle and also win his father back, thus gaining the moral victory as well.
Anybody can pick up a sword and use it. You're still going to get your ass handed to you by somebody who has been trained. Unless he was shot in the stomach before hand of course
This bothered me too, it's also why I like Finn better as a character because he's the only one who had a full arc in the movie.
Finn isn't a perfect character; he's ignorant, emotionally unstable, naive, and is thrust into a situation he does not want to be in. This makes him more realistic as a character.
Rey is a bland character. Her actress was spectacular, but JJ could have done so much more with her in that movie than he did.
What's wrong with making a woman character have flaws? I mean if we're going down the politically correct route here where is all the butt-hurt from making the black guy look like a complete spaz at the beginning of the movie?
JJ's just been pussy-whipped by Disney because they need another princess.
>is lousy shot
Does she even miss once? Do you not get that "doesn't know how to turn the safety often" doesn't combo with "kills a dozen guys with the first shot once it is off".
I like how nobody invested in viewing this as a gendered thing comments on her dinky little girl's gun either.
Eh, I'd call it fine. He was using it like a baton against an injured person who is expressly a pale shadow of Vader.
See the fight with him and the taser-trooper. That was uninjured and clearly showing that stormtroopers get some serious melee training. So I'd believe that an uninjured stormtrooper could get in a hit or two against a highly injured sith who was in the middle of a mental breakdown.
That and, you know, he lost.
>she'd have been spread all over the ground when she encountered Ren trying to make her way to a ship
Do you know that for sure? Ren and the entirety of the bases' troops were looking for her and she evaded them perfectly fine before Han and Finn showed up. And since she's an ace pilot, there's literally nothing stopping her from sneaking onto a ship or stealing one with hyperdrive.
Don't be so fucking dramatic. We're talking about the opinions of fanfic writers, not people who are publishing successfully. And even if we were, trends change faster in art than in anything else.
In what way? I get that she has background in self defense & technical savy on a junk planet where it's everyone for themselves, but the Jedi stuff is Mary Sue as fuck. Luke was shit with a lightsaber and new no other Jedi fuckery until Return.
That was bullshit and you know it.
Yeah, you see this shit in Sci-Fi communities.
Everything's political. If you write a progressive character she can be a Sue and you'll get praise for towing the Party Line
Thankfully Rey isn't really progressive or propaganda, she's just a fucking Sue. But you'll see tons of novellas with Mary Sues who give long boring speeches on gay rights and shit and convince the world because they're -just- that charismatic
If the movie wasn't so clumsy, the usual suspects would have jumped on that, but right now they think they've got bigger fish to fry.
Just wait a couple of months - the movie's bound to be "revisited" by culture critics that need some free publicity, and they'll fixate on shit like that for days.
>He wasn't here to be the unstoppable force like Vader was
except that's exactly the impression we're being given outside of the movie.
this is why I haven't seen this POS yet; I knew it was basically going to be jj failing to deliver all over again.
That isn't a character flaw, that's just shit writing meant to lead the audience into believing Rey is anything but a writer insert.
She is a Mary Sue in the original sense of the term; literally a female protagonist who exceeds other established characters of the canon at their own specialties for no reason other than she can.
We are introduced to Rey as having no idea whether or not the Jedi actually existed. She says Luke Skywalker was just a legend, and yet she innately understands how to use the Jedi Mind Trick in about three minutes. She's a crack shot, a perfect mechanic, and all around the worst character in the movie. The CGI yellow woman was better, as was Leia. Rey was obviously shoehorned into the writing, it's so apparent.
It's a major part of her character throughout the movie. She keeps being offered grander things in life, whether joining the Falcon or becoming a Jedi, but all she wants to do is run away from it all and go back home.
Granted, we know there's a reason for it and maybe it's even that she's *compelled* to go back, but she doesn't jump to the call like Luke did.
The thing is Diaz has a point. Way too many authors treat their characters like giving them some imaginary ratio of bad to good traits will make them compelling. It doesn't. That's why you can have characters that are technically Sues that are compelling, easily.
The simple fact is, however, that we don't really know what makes one character compelling and another not so. We don't actually have access to our internal emotional states, and all the explanation in the world is just post-fact rationalizing. We are most likely NEVER going to be able to tell why we find some characters compelling and others not compelling.
Diaz, being the cuck he is, uses this as proof of some unfalsifiable theory of sexism. The thing is, there probably ARE some gender differences between characters we find compelling. Certain things women do we find compelling, and certain things men do we find compelling, and rarely find them compelling when the roles are reversed, unless we're just trying to like them for the political point they're making, which comes across as tired and shallow.
>Luke's a Gary Stu
What the fuck are you on about?
Luke's specialty throughout all the OT was consistently piloting. He wasn't magically good at fixing shit, he wasn't a crack shot, he didn't get Force powers in the first movie he appeared in, and he didn't escape capture through the strength of his own plot powers. He suffered, grew, made friends and real connections.
Luke was a typical epic protagonist.
>Way too many authors treat their characters like giving them some imaginary ratio of bad to good traits
No they don't, and no he doesn't. It's a strawman, like all of Diaz's "criticisms." Acknowledging that flawed characters are way more interesting than characters who excel isn't accepting a ratio, it's basic storytelling.
I read books all the time, buddy. But this is stuff that's being researched right now. The simple fact is that people are terrible at explaining why they like something, and when they try to rationalize it they end up regretting their choice. There's been some interesting work done, actually, in this area, and I think it holds out great hope for our culture, because maybe if it becomes more widespread I think we'll become less obsessed with explaining why we like certain things or not, and just acknowledge the reality that we like what we like, we don't need to explain it-indeed, our explanations of why we like it are almost certainly wrong.
Now are you interested in discussing this, or are you going to keep up with the whole "You have a different opinion so you must be uneducated" thing?
But think about the emotional depth! And the sheer RANGE Daisy Ridley shows in going from "smarmy fuck" to "startled horse"!
Plus, that's her Denying The Call™. You can't have Star Wars IV-2 without a lead Denying The Call™. How else will high school English juniors be able to write essays about how the movie uses the hero's journey (or "heroine's journey" - that's sure to get a smiley face on the title page) "to great effect"? That's an easy A, and god knows those kids need it.
Because JJ wasn't afraid to make extremely misogynist women characters in the Star Trek films.
Uhura gets beat up a LOT in both films, along with putting other female characters in there for the sole purpose of getting dicked by Chris Pine.
>Max Landis desperately trying to get attention
War never changes.
Yes, they really do. Particularly among areas that Diaz is probably most interested in, which is pop-culture science fiction and fantasy. I think that maybe the people who are intereste din this genre are more interested in describing worlds or political systems than they are with creating compelling characters, so they treat character writing like they do anything, a balance of traits rather than an organic whole.
Luke blew up the Death Star using the force
was able to infiltrate and rescue princess Leia competently
and, pretty much in the scope of the first movie, he rarely fucks up a task given to him.
In later movies he fucks up a lot more, but in a new hope he's pretty untouchable.
I mean, you'd have to be a complete asshole not to see the parallels between A new Hope and Force Awakens. ie, it's a soft reboot. Rey is the Luke of this movie, so it makes sense
>You have a different opinion so you must be uneducated.
>Entire post is generalities and sweeping statements.
As the proud holder of a Master's Degree in rhetoric, I'll wait for you to make an actual point. If your argument is that character flaws are relative, you're wrong. You seem to be confusing people liking poorly-written characters with storytelling merit, but I'll let you respond first.
no he was planing to join the empire hell the only reason was not already in flight school was Uncle Owen would not allow him to leave until the next year and need help with the harvest. that is the first thing we know about him he wants to get the fuck off that planet and doesn't care how the fuck it happens
>Yes, they really do.
No, they really don't. I'll repeat: acknowledging that flawed characters are truer to life than flawless ones is not "autism," not is it comparing your character to an imaginary ratio of good and bad. It's good storytelling.
> muh Master's Degree in rhetoric
So you're going to do the whole "You have a different opinion, so you're uneducated" thing. Okay.
Nah, I'll just leave it at that, since you blatantly lack the reading comprehension to understand the point I was making.
Nope, just stating the facts. You acquit yourself from the argument because you have nothing but sweeping, ambiguous statements lacking any real intellectual depth. Your Millennial education has failed you; disagreeing with you on the grounds that you haven't made a point isn't insulting you for being uneducated.
Read a book. I'd start with this one.
He really is insufferable.
He's being an inflammatory baby because Victor Frankenstein and American Ultra both tanked.
And I liked Ultra well enough for the dumb stoner action comedy it was.
I never said it was autism, and I never said that flawed characters aren't truer to life than flawless ones. What I said is that too many authors seem to think that balancing flaws and virtues is what makes a compelling character.
Luke let Ben die, almost died on Hoth (and then got shot down again later), flunked out of Yoda's training, lost an arm to Darth Vader and had to be rescued by Lando and co. and then he had to be bailed out by his dad when he finally came face to face with Palpatine. He doesn't really even become competent at anything other than piloting until the third movie and that skill is mostly due to his force sensitivity.
Han got captured, tortured and served up to Jabba the Hutt, his ship is constantly breaking and he walks right into a trap on Endor's moon and has to be saved by teddy bears.
Anakin was such a shitty jedi that he ended up being manipulated into butchering dozens of children, killing his own wife and toppling a 25,000 year-old republic before getting absolutely #rekt by Obi-Wan.
What I don't get is, how does saying "if anyone's a Sue, it's Luke" (not that it's what you're saying, but it's that line of garbage that started this particular shitfit, which is one of many) prove that Rey is NOT a Sue? If anything, that just proves they're both Sues. And there have been plenty of edgelord teens who argue that Luke is too perfect, so it's not like that's a particularly brilliant observation. Seems like Diaz just started off with "no u" and tried to flesh it out with his usual abstract bullshit about structured sexism.
>Using the Force.
Guided by the ghost of Obi-Wan Kenobi. His mentor.
>Infiltrate and rescue Princess Leia.
With the help of five other characters.
>Rarely fucks up a task given to him.
He loses R2-D2, gets fucked up by Sand People, starts a bar fight, is almost crushed by a trash compactor, is almost murdered by Darth Vader were it not for Han Solo's intervention.
He fucks up plenty and more than Rey.
>I mean, that's how we got stories like Superman.
Superman was more like an avatar of morality than an actual person, though. There really wasn't even a pretense of fallibility around him.
She did grow. Her fuckup was running away from taking Luke's saber and being a jedi, her escape from the fuckup was deciding to embrace a force power, and she wins the climax by calling it to her hand.
If you find any value in this shit heap of a thread I commend your ability to waste an enormous amount of your time reading a surface level, high school discussion of character development.
This thread is more akin to a room of retards fingering each others buttocks while screeching their overcooked analysis of tired and trite tropes.
>is almost murdered by Darth Vader were it not for Han Solo's intervention.
You mean like how Ren would have kicked her ass (Like he did the last time they had a 'fight') if it hadn't been through the metric shittonne of beating before he encountered her?
Actually, this is what I meant. Theyre BOTH sues. At least in the first of their respective movies.
Any errors made by the characters were errors of judgment. Rey ran, leading to her capture. Luke went to go find Obi-wan, leading to the demise of his uncle and aunt (although he probably would've suffered the same fate)
I guarantee, since these movies will probably parallel the original trilogy, we we get Rey failing at something, whether its a rematch with Kylo, fighting Snope, or something.
That is, without a doubt, the douchiest book you could have coiled onto this back-and-forth. Bravo.
>And if women were actually portrayed realistically women IRL would bitch to the point the nation goes deaf while men would grab guns and kill themselves. The reason men would choose death? Because most men have been raised believing in shit like Girl Power and honestly think women are just Men with Tits/Vag. The lie is so strong that reality would break them horribly once they see the propaganda is not up to snuff in reality. Hence they kill themselves for the most part.
You might want to see a shrink, buddy.
I guess this caliber of argument is what a degree in something like rhetoric gets you.
> inb4 you rant and rave about how you make 200k a year and your degree is only for genius-level IQs
I loved the fact that they ignored their character development in this chart. Vader had 6 movies that showed how he became the best. Luke had 3 movies to show he he improved himself and defeated the Emperor. Han had 3 episodes that showed him going from a scumbag smuggler to a hero in the 3 movies.
Then we have Rey who is given everything out of the blue with no development. She's automatically great in the force and great with a lightsaber.
Apparently she's great at everything.
>episode 9 ends with Luke, Rey and Ren all dying somehow
>the force vanishes from the galaxy, and people are left to their own devices, without having super powered asshole interfere with everything
best case scenario for the franchise.
Honestly, I think her rematch with Kylo is not going to go her way. Badly.
She took him on at his absolute worst for that fight and he's going to be training just as much as she is.
By that breadth, doesnt Rey get plenty of help from Han, Chewwy, Fin, and the rebel alliance?
Also, an error in judgement is different than failing a task. His bad judgement caused an inconsequential bar fight. And things NOT happening is not the basis of an argument.
"whether or not a character has flaws at all" is not subjective, but "what makes a character compelling" absolutely is because it doesn't at all start and end with "do they have flaws or not?"
Some people prefer a character to be a charismatic talker, while others like to follow an introvert.
Some people don't like stories where the protagonist is a villain or an asshole, other people prefer stories about bad guys over ones about "boring" people who "do the right thing".
Likeability and compelling-ness is absolutely subjective.
>anyone can be interesting if they're written well
I mean, he's right and you can have interesting no.flaw characters; but Mary Sues are precisely the ones that are not well written.
Have you read it?
I'm a high school English teacher making just under $40K a year. Spare me. And the caliber of the argument has never risen from the level you introduced it in - you invited me to argue the merits of storytelling and then became defensive when I said you were speaking in generalities. If you were really interested in an argument, you would have made one by now.
I'll remind you: your original statement was that character flaws are relative. I disagreed. Now do you want to have this discussion or not?
>Then we have Rey who is given everything out of the blue with no development. She's automatically great in the force and great with a lightsaber.
>Apparently she's great at everything.
She's channeling the force hardcore, yo.
Also she rejects Han Solo's offer to join up with him & Chewie, runs away when Maz Kanata offers Luke's lightsaber, and gets herself captured by Kylo Ren for it..
But that's the initial denial to the call to action. Its not really a character flaw, its more of a storytelling trope and doesn't really inform Rey as a character in any way.
If, as part of her character, she was naturally indecisive and wishy-washy about all or most of her decisions pre-3rd act, you'd be right, but since she only shows the hesitance once in order to fulfill that aspect of the hero's journey, I would argue that its more an aspect of the story than an aspect of the character.
The political correctness is strong in this thread.
Let's have some fun then; what would be some better, more racial and sexually inclusive names in order for the Star Wars cast to be brought into the 21st century?
Usually people don't give a shit about contrarion opinions unless they hit close to the mark
The fact that so many people are bothered by others calling Rey a Mary Sue makes me think there are elements of truth in that claim
>Seeing as how many men across the globe subsidize and support Pro-Female propaganda in books, movies, cartoons, videogames, etc it's a proper assessment to come to the conclusion that most men are white knight faggots or mangina simps. It's because of these idiots that we keep on seeing this Gynocentric bullshit indoctrination trash everywhere in all media.
>By now after decades? Real sick of it.
You need to relax, you should go see a star war. I hear it's still got like three male characters for every female one.
Rey is a Mary Sue.
But she's a nice girl and it's Star Wars. People are willing to overlook her being a Mary Sue
Remember, female characters can be worse than Mary Sue
So much worse
>By that breadth, doesnt Rey get plenty of help from Han, Chewwy, Fin, and the rebel alliance?
Not really. Most of the "help" she receives from her supporting cast comes in the form of weapons she's already competent at using, supportive words, and rides from one problem she has no trouble solving to another. They're more like her entourage than her equals.
>If, as part of her character, she was naturally indecisive and wishy-washy about all or most of her decisions pre-3rd act, you'd be right, but since she only shows the hesitance once in order to fulfill that aspect of the hero's journey, I would argue that its more an aspect of the story than an aspect of the character.
You're just going in circles, man.
She's repeatedly desperate to return to Jakku when Finn brings it up, when Han brings it up, and when Maz Kanata brings it up.
She only begins to learn to let go when Finn comes back for her on Starkiller Base.
Actually, she refuses the call two or three times before that because she keeps wanting to go back to Jakku and wait for her parents.
The lightsaber refusal is more about fear and denial, it is a character moment.
We're all gonna look pretty silly if all the fallibility of Rey is pushed back onto the next 2 movies.
Granted, this is the era where scoring political brownie points is more important than ever before, so the idea that a Strong Female Protagonist could start strong, and then falter later on, would invite a slew of commiserating articles about how Abrams "betrayed" Rey's fans, how he "set us back", and all that garbage. But something like that would put everyone who took a hard stance on this argument on tilt.
Like, compare Boyega acting as the gunner for Poe and Boyega acting as the gunner for Rey
With Poe he's gunning down all the targets, it's a fifty fifty divide
With Rey the Falcon's cannons jam, meaning Rey has to pull off a super special manuever so Finn, who is rendered useless, can make the shot
>Seeing as how many men across the globe subsidize and support Pro-Female propaganda in books, movies, cartoons, videogames, etc
Reminder that your issues are nonexistant outside of your echo chamber.
>hat guy should have beat her even while being a little bit injured.
Why do you just assume Kylo should be good at dueling? His training is unfinished too, he's had no competition until now, and he's clearly a fuckup.
>When the USA goes completely bankrupt and cannot afford Feminism anymore. Feminism is expensive as hell to inject in academia, media, etc. And it doesn't really produce anything of merit for a society.
>Once Western Society really collapses then you'll see an end to Gynocentric nonsense. And guys like this asshole? He'll be thrown under a bus by women and despised by the men he insulted (meaning no likely employment for a male feminist).
This is a star wars thread, dude.
Preach your manifesto somewhere else, like /pol/
Luke didn't spend all his formative years literally scavenging to survive, either.
He also didn't grow up with the Falcon as a part of his daily scenery.
And of course Solo fucking liked her. She's a young, pretty, competent woman. It's not like he hasn't shown a weakness for that type before.
>When the USA goes completely bankrupt and cannot afford Feminism anymore. Feminism is expensive as hell to inject in academia, media, etc. And it doesn't really produce anything of merit for a society.
>Once Western Society really collapses then you'll see an end to Gynocentric nonsense. And guys like this asshole? He'll be thrown under a bus by women and despised by the men he insulted (meaning no likely employment for a male feminist).
If society collapses, then Gynocentrism will adapt. Stuff like Feminism may be gone, but human men will still be annoying stupid pussy beggars who will coddle women by pure instinctive default.
The world could suffer a thousand years of poverty and misery and men would still "provide and protect" women because "vagina is good yah." The only way to kill Gynocentrism is to bio-engineer it out of men itself. At that point there would be no human species.
What the fuck was with the map? If Luke was so ashamed of what happened and decided to exile himself, why would he give the leave the means to find him? If R2D2 safely had the important part of the map, does this mean the other one was scattered on purpose? Why would Luke do that?
Yeah, I've read it a couple of times. Can't say I agree with everything in it, but I get the gist of it. And I also know that using it as a roundabout way of establishing that the other person would already be agreeing with you if that person knew what they were talking about is amazingly condescending. That is almost exactly the sort of thing the other anon was talking about.
And in those cases, she knows what she wants and is denying the call to action to pursue it. At the time, its staying on Jakku to wait for her parents. She does show a conflict on that point, and does seem genuinely excited to join Han's crew, but ultimately she's never unsure. She never says "I don't know," or anything resembling it.
Its like calling Luke indecisive because he initially doesn't rush to take Obi Wan up on his offer to go to Alderaan. Its not that he's indecisive, he just decides not to follow the plot until it forces him to in the form of a roasted aunt and uncle.
Feminism exists because female nature is to extract maximum resources for minimum reciprocation.
So, they have a massive state dedicated to extracting resources and showering them upon women, they don't even pretend to respect men.
I suggested it as a starting point if the other anon was really interested in actual philosophy. I don't care if it came across as condescending.
And I didn't introduce it as though the other anon would be agreeing with me if they were familiar with it. Agreement isn't the goal of argument. Now is someone going to talk about character flaws and storytelling or not?
>She's fucking Jania Solo. How do you people not see that?
Because neither Leia nor Han recognizes her or mentions they have/had a daughter.
It would be sadistically cruel for them to abandon her on another planet and not acknowledge her even once she was of age.
She's either a Skywalker, Kenobi, or a deep cut character.
Because he's still the most powerful hero in the galaxy and knows he'll be needed again one day?
Remember, Luke didn't JUST go into exile out of shame or to have a time out and grieve, he went looking for the ruins of the First Jedi Academy.
she couldve been written better but shes not a fucking sue you tards
there isnt a "failure quota" for a character, and she was pretty shit at flying the falcon at the beginning
This is a Star Wars thread.
Everyone called Anakin a shithead for two movies. Were kinda pissed off at a kid being sucked off so hard in the first.
Luke gets beaten, soundly, several times.
She wins everything, every time.
>Asking /co/ to drop one of its favourite meme buzzwords
keep dreaming pal.
The day we stop spouting Reddit, Edgy, Mary Sue, /v/, /tv/ and Tumblr is the day we have actual discussions.
And that day is never.
The guy also lost his hand in his first fight with Vader and got ass thoroughly handed to him even after a decent amount of training. Rey literally just picks up a lightsaber and is able to beat Kylo Ren.
I think the problem is that Rey is a Star Wars character. And that may seem dumb to say. But the characters people love the most in the films are usually not Star Wars characters but people that felt like someone you could actually know or at least someone you could see in some regular film.
Han, Luke and Leia are all rooted in the same sort of character traits and archetypes you'd see in high school and teen movies at the time. NOT space opera.
Finn and Poe seem like they might've fallen through a portal from our world and just happened to get caught up in Star Wars shit.
Meanwhile Rey seems like she was specifically written to only ever be for Star Wars. She clashes with the rest of the movie because she's an inaccessible protagonist who's rooted in looking inward at the franchise instead of bringing things from outside.
Also, they're totally setting her up to go over to the Dark Side. Luke's gonna straight up refuse her probably because of the shit that went down with Ben Solo before he became Kylo Ren. Rey's gonna look elsewhere and she's gonna go over to the Dark Side. You don't make someone this powerful unless you're setting up a fall. Even if a lot of their skills are accounted for by the narrative at hand.
Anakin was portrayed as a prodigy, but easy to manipulate and with obvious flaws that a lot of people, specially Obi Wan and Windu pointed
The most mary sue he was, was in ep one
Luke was also whiny, naive and impatient, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere in ANH without Han or Ben.
And let's not forget how easily he gave up on lifting his X-Wing out of the swamp, or the time he rushed off without finishing his training to fight Vader. And got his ass kicked.
>Finn immediately loves her
>Han immediately loves her
>Throw away line about Chewie liking her
>Leia, who doesn't know this person, gives her a tearful embrace
>Orange thing likes her and tells her she has the force
Yup, Rey isn't that at all
Only women-haters criticize something as stunning, brave and important for women as Star Wars: The Force Awakens.
Close, this is a shitposting thread with a popular movie as the topic.
"Mary sue" only means "competent female"
The movie is amazing and all of you are just being contrarians as usual. God forbid there is a positive role model for girls out there, we can't have that, oh fuck no!
But why would he make it a struggle for people to find where he is by purposely separating the pieces and hiding it instead of just handing it to Obi Wan and whispering "hey, find me when things get REALLY bad okay?"
>he went looking for the ruins of the First Jedi Academy
That also doesn't make sense to me. Presumably the island they found him on was the site of the First Jedi Academy. How did the map lead to him if he didn't know where his destination was?
Yeah maybe that's because Vader is a fucking master who's always calm and composed and Kylo is a tantrum-throwing novice.
It's not the hero's fault with the villain is a pussy, man.
But Vader is one of the best duelists of all time. So far as we know, Kylo is Episode 3 Anakin-tier at best.
>"Mary sue" only means "competent female"
While I don't like how this guy is going about it, I do agree with him in the sense that people think that "adding flaws" automatically makes a character better or good. It really is like balancing an RPG character.
Read the reply chain. I said that fulfilling the trope of the initial denial to the call to action isn't necessarily a character flaw, unless its supported by other acts of indecision or weakness.
When Rey is resolute about staying on Jakku, that's not weakness or indecision, its just pursuing something other than the plot, again, with resolution.
If you think it is a character flaw, that's fine, but then that flaw is extended to basically every character that goes through the hero's journey with little exception, because its integral to humanizing them.
>D-don't call them the new Female Ghostbusters...
Maybe he sent the map to Max Von Sydow fairly recently, after he found the place?
That's why the portion R2 had was of the rest of the galaxy, when he left R2, he only knew "somewhere in this sector I guess"
If we have to do this, fine.
>The simple fact is, however, that we don't really know what makes one character compelling and another not so
The argument was about character flaws and compelling characters. Is saying that what makes a character compelling is relative, you were saying what constituted a character flaw is relative.
If your argument is that people liking bad characters means those characters aren't poorly written, confusing, or boring, you're not being rational. If your response to this is "everything is relative," I'd like for you to go deeper.
Now, if you're done ad homming, let's have a discussion.
It's shocking just how incompetent he and Finn are. Like jesus man Kylo can freeze anything including blaster bolts with the force but gets his ass handed to him by a clumsy nigger and a girl that's been using the Force for about an hour.
Finn was supposedly trained to be a soldier from birth but is not only so mentally weak he defects in his first combat and he was apparently used as a janitor (what the fuck)
>you've still effectively ripped the balls off of a character who MUST fight Rey again in future installments,
yeah, because kylo didn't just
eat an explosion, take a bowcaster to the chest, kill his own father, AND take some glancing blows from a trained melee fighter.
here is the question i have: is Luke that much of a dick to not let Leia or Han know they have a niece? we know that he had at least a couple of years where shit was not completely fucked up and was around them training their kid. so it is Luke's kid then one of them should know
I'm arguing she was afraid to accept her destiny in the lightsaber scene, expressing a completely different motivation than in the previous scenes where she repeatedly denies the call to fill in the blank on the Hero's Journey scorecard.
And that is a valid character flaw.
R2D2 has the most important of the map didn't he? I might be wrong.
Besides if he sent a map back after finding the place and being alright with being called back into action, why not just return himself instead of making people come to him?
Also the idea of an entire map being necessary instead of just coordinates seems odd to me.
>I do agree with him in the sense that people think that "adding flaws" automatically makes a character better or good.
No one thinks that. It's a strawman. Character flaws are integral parts of character building and storytelling. Comparing either to RPGs just shows the gross limitations of Diaz's intellectual experiences.
That wound only seemed to be relevant in the fight with Finn, didn't slow him down at all later. Kylo's wildly incompetent though, doesn't even use his Force powers in duels. Wonder if Lord stupidname trained him wrong on purpose.
No, it's actually not saying it at all. It's not claiming that character flaws are relative. It's saying that we don't have access to our internal emotional states that can rationally explain why we find certain traits compelling or not. It makes absolutely no claims about the character flaws being relative or not whatsoever.
Again, this is why I said you lack the reading comprehension to understand my argument.
> B-B-BUT MUH AD-HOMS
>coming from the guy whose first reply was "read a book"
Nah, I'll keep up with the ad homs, you insufferable stupid faggot.
Actually, character flaws are the only ways that broken people can identify with fictional characters. They're afraid of idealized people and can't handle a properly written character.
>EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS JUST BROKEN
>is Luke that much of a dick to not let Leia or Han know they have a niece?
When Kylo Ren mindreads Rey he talks about a Knight desperate for sleep, which seem to be Luke. So Luke might just be completely burned out and unwilling to deal with anything.
>we know that he had at least a couple of years where shit was not completely fucked up and was around them training their kid. so it is Luke's kid then one of them should know
Hamill has said in the past he imagines Luke going celibate and not having and kids. I imagine her parentage was kept secret from everyone for a reason.
It's not so cut and dry. I'm now leaning more towards her not being related to anyone important at all, the ultimate twist in Star Wars.
If all you have is BB8's part, you have a map of the system Luke's planet is in, but you don't know where in the galaxy that system is.
R2 had the rest of the map, the part that shows the whole galaxy, with a small chunk missing. It's the part that gives context to BB8's part.