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How did they execute Zukos "betrayal" so perfectly?

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How did they execute Zukos "betrayal" so perfectly?

I've never seen a redemption arc subverted this way. The whole season of build up and then in the ultimate moment he does't switch sides.

Fucking amazing.
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Good thread, have a bump
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Fuck him. He went through a whole epiphany for nothing.
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>>78010750
It made perfect sense. A couple months of not chasing the Avatar isn't going to undo a lifetime of conditioning. It took him getting what he wanted and realizing he didn't like it to turn him around.

Also, the answer to OP is that it was suggested by Aaron Ehasz that Zuko's redemption be pushed back. Originally he was going to side with the Gaang in the Book 2, and Iroh (who genuinely supported the Fire Nation) would attack him for his treachery.
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>>78009742
better writers who were gone by the time korra came
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>>78011484
Exactly. Going back to the Fire Nation and realizing that he'd been chasing something he didn't actually want was exactly what he needed. It's all very natural.
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>>78011893
its even better in that if he switched sides then, it would have been a hollow victory. He had NOTHING at that moment. He was an outcast, destitute, no honor.

It takes a much larger and meaningful sacrifice to switch sides after he has been given everything he's ever wanted.
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>>78009742

Is it true that fans of the show wrote to them asking them to rewrite this episode?

It really is the sign of a competent writer that they were willing to do stuff that everyone might not be happy about but was necessary for a good story.

One of the weaknesses of Korra is that they were way too willing to play into expectations.
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>>78012027
never heard that.

best thing was watching zutarians self destruct after the finale. they wanted Bryke's heads on a stick. it was hilarious

fuck zutarians
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>>78012027
Rewrite it into what? Zutara shipping?
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>>78011484
>Iroh (who genuinely supported the Fire Nation) would attack him for his treachery.

That would have pissed A LOT OF PEOPLE
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>>78012215

Yeah, Zutarans being btfo was just as sweet as watching Dragonfags sperg over Death Battle.
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>>78009742
Basically they did a classic RPG midpoint twist
See you thought he was just gonna be humbled and change his ways, but it's more complicated than that. In the end, whether he was the bad guy or the 'good guy' working in his uncle's tea shop, his motivations were basically the same: regaining honor and pleasing papa. This is important. Selfish motives are never really good even if you lead a relatively harmless life and dont bother anyone because the major opportunities for evil simply aren't available.. you don't have a good working society just because crime is too hard, guns and drugs are too expensive and hard to find, and all the stealables are locked up. What you have there is a fucking powderkeg.
Only when he started genuinely caring about others instead of himself could zuko truly redeem himself
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>>78012215

Oh shit, for a second I thought they wanted Zuko to switch to Aang's side for the sake of the overall story.

Should have known better, according to shippers there's nothing more important about Katara's life than her trying to decide which penis to have sex with.
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>>78012361

You see, Katara and Zuko are getting along not that bad in the cave so they OBVIOUSLY WANT TO FUCK LIKE RABBITS!
Writers need to redo the episode so that comes clear!1
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>>78009742

Because the writers for this show were on a whole other level. Definitely lightning in a bottle, Zuko is easily one of the best animated characters of alll time.
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>>78009742
It simply worked because the character himself was honestly and believably conflicted. Good character development. Plot and characterization working perfectly together. All of the characters involved in that episode had been perfectly and carefully built up and all their actions rang true. I sometimes feel sad that I may never get to see something like it again.
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>>78013659
Happy they didn't imply anything with that scene. It's a cartoon, and fantasy at that, but if you were mortal enemies with someone and got locked away with them in a dark cave you wouldn't just start fucking relentlessly because of the close proximity.
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Y'all joke about Zutara, but Aaron Ehasz actually wanted to go that route. Also wanted to go Sokka/Toph - whatever the fuck you call that ship.
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>>78013757
Of all the antagonists that fall into the "enemy-turned-friend" trope, Zuko is hands down one of the best, you're right. What was really great, in my opinion, is that he never came across as incompetent and weak during the earlier episodes.
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>>78013769
Are you implying there was any chance they would actually have them bang in that cave?
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>>78013812

Irrelevant.
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>>78013928

I think the implication was that there could have been anything at all to indicate that either of them were attracted to the other, which really wasn't there at all.

When Aang and Iroh break them out, there isn't even a reaction shot of Aang seeing them standing close together, it wasn't even remotely on any of the character's minds.
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>>78013812

Sokka/toph I always saw as pretty fitting. Without Kyoshi girl they would have made a cute couple, she was obviously in.
Also even with the Kyoshi warrior girl in the background he dated the moon...
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>>78014567
Suyin and her kids have darker skin than other Earth Nation people. Sokka is Suyin's father confirmed.
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>>78009742
When I first saw ATLA, I thought Zuko's character development was good. Now that I've seen how flimsy most of the justifications for "villain changes sides" developments that other series pull are, I've got a new level of appreciation for it.

I really need to research this series.
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How did you guys feel they did with Varrick's face-heel turn in Korra? I genuinely didn't see it coming.
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>>78015357

I'm not even sure what side Varrick was on at any given point. He just followed whatever side seemed like it was going to win and was normally right.
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>>78015618
Yeah but he orchestrates a war where people stood to die and he arranged to have Asami's warehouses robbed so he could forcefully acquire her company. Varrick was on Varrick's side, and he did some pretty deplorable shit.

Then despite that amorality he suddenly decided the spirit vine weapons were too much and abandoned Kuvira's regime even though she was going to be the clear victor in her conquest of the Earth Kingdom.
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>>78014950
That very well could be the implication. It wouldn't be surprising.
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>>78015922
The first time i didn't really notice it as a thing. I just took his change of heart as a joke i moment and didn't think about it afterwards.

But looking back on it, it feels weird. He never seemed to care about others before and he was on the winning team at the time so he should have no trouble at all doing it as i see it.

Guess it's just another thing that happened because they needed it to.
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>>78016364
They should've had him change sides because the cannon nearly killed HIM. He's egotistical and self-absorbed.

Zhu Li should've followed him purely because of his pioneering and innovation.
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>>78015357
It was extremely cheap. It was literally just him getting a conscience all of a sudden and immediately changing sides - He even says so himself.
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>>78016364
>Guess it's just another thing that happened because they needed it to.
It only happened because Varrick was popular and Bryke don't write with natural character progression in mind.
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>>78015127
It also shows you that anybody who thinks Azula is ready to be redeemed is just a blind waifist.

Zuko, even during season 1 where he's still mostly painted as a villain, fought through a fortress to save the Avatar. It took him three seasons to get redeemed

Azula's first "good" action is dropping a letter that gives Zuko the false hope that his abusive father may not be his real father, which is a letter Zuko already knows is fake. The idea that she'd be redeemed within the span of one comic is ridiculous.

inb4 Crapper is summoned
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>>78019081
>The idea that she'd be redeemed within the span of one comic is ridiculous.
Not when the only writers that carried over from ATLA to the comics are Mike and Bryan.
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>>78009742
Zuko had the majority of the best moments in the show, he was by far the most fleshed out character development-wise: in no particular order
>facing off against Zhao instead of chasing Angg
>confronting his father
>fighting off bandits in the Earth kingdom
>blue spirit rescue
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>>78014950
Or maybe it was this guy...
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>>78012215
>watch A:TLA
>completely isolated from the fandom aside from a few (good) deviantArtists
>not even high school friends like it as much as me
>only hear tell of Zutarans being batshit insane
>never experience it in real time
>never get to see their souls crushed when Kataang happened

I don't know if I regret my lack of interaction with the fandom or not.
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I was watching this during Thanksgiving and all of the interactions with Katara and Zuko didn't come off as the two wanting to fuck each other, not once. Anyone with a brain could see >>78012215 was more than likely. The most that was going to happen with Katara/Zuko was the two being friends, and they did. The show was good for what it's worth, and the romantic segments didn't feel forced or derailed the experience at all.

A lot better than I thought it'd be.
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>>78016364
>>78015922
I dunno'... he DID basically build a nuke. Perspective changes when you create a device that can unleash devastation at that magnitude. Varrick never struck me as a guy that would resolve to absolute murder. War profiteering? Fine. Black-mail? Sure.

Did he ever directly hurt or kill anyone though? I honestly can't remember. Either way... a bomb that big leads to an awful lot of guilt. Just imagine how Ernest Rutherford would feel if he knew about nuclear technology being built off of his scientific foundations.
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>>78011484

>Iroh (who genuinely supported the Fire Nation) would attack him for his treachery.

this is seriously so dumb, glad they didn't go with it

also wasn't Iroh supposed to teach Zuko firebending wrong on purpose?
fuckin lol
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>>78019136
They had nothing to do with the comics.
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>>78018805
SMILE.
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>>78020795
>Did he ever directly hurt or kill anyone though?
The worst thing he did was frame Mako and get him thrown in jail.
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>>78011484

>it was suggested by Aaron Ehasz that Zuko's redemption be pushed back

the only thing that sucks about this is that there was very limited time in Book 3 where Zuko is part of the Gaang

I would really like to see a few more episodes where they hang out together
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>>78015357
Honestly, I loved it. Guy was a funny side character, then turns and puts up a serious face. It was scary as fuck. You knew shit just got real.

While I still enjoyed him later I was sad he turned out to be a clown again.
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>>78020832
Actually Gene Yang has to screen all story decisions through them first. So they do get a final say in what goes into the books.

>>78020856
I wanted more interactions between Zuko and Toph.
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>>78009742
It was great but I always got distracted by how awesome Azula operated through the series (except the 'loligotcrazy' end of course).
>zuko didn't turn
>weeeellll shiiieeet
>Aang activates godmode
>Azula uses thunder
>it is super effective!
>HHHNNNNNNGGGG pls Mistress Azula make me your bitch
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>>78011484
>A couple months of not chasing the Avatar isn't going to undo a lifetime of conditioning.
Exactly.
I also love how the show was able to make Iroh, the wise old sage and Zuko's mentor, completely wrong for the entire season without making him look stupid.
Iroh had his own personal idea of happiness and assumed that if he showed Zuko that then Zuko would follow suit, without taking into account what Zuko might want at all.
It should that at that point, as close as they were, Iroh still didn't fully understand Zuko and demonstrated how fundamentally different people they were.
And this is built up over the whole season. Even something as seemingly innocuous as Zuko's vignette from Tales of Ba Sing Se, they were thinking about this. Jin was purposefully designed to be the perfect, ideal girlfriend character, she represented the temptation of life in Ba Sing Se that Iroh was offering Zuko and faced with it, Zuko didn't entirely buy into it. It was very subtle foreshadowing that Iroh's plan to turn Zuko into a neutral entity in the war wasn't going to work.
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I enjoy ATLA thread way more than Korra threads
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ANGRY AT MYSELF
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It's funny how in Legend of Korra this scene would have been played completely straight. Zuko would have sided with the heroes and then maybe, I dunno, kissed Katara or some shit
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>>78009742
But then he does. Wow, that subversion.
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>>78015357
Face-heel turn was fine, subsequent heel-face turn was awful.
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>>78022841
The sad part is that you're right.
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MUH HONOR
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>>78009742
I have to disagree, this was the worst part of the entire series. First Zuko acts emo throughout the entire season while hunted by her genocidal sister, then he gets the flu, then when he's healed he suddenly isn't a dork anymore because what the fuck is character development, and THEN, after he's supposedly come to terms with his situation, after he says he's cool with everything that happened to him, he decides - for no logical reason - to side with and fully trust his psycho sister who wanted to murder him just a week ago because what the fuck is natural plot progression.

I'm going to be curtious and assume OP genuinly thinks this - along with all the rest of the ridiculously dumb plotting of Crossroads of Destiny - is genuinly good writing and say to it: welp, to each their own. Still, I maintain that this was the absolute nadir of the entire franchise. Say what you want about The Legend of Korra, but that series never comes anywhere close to being as trite, forced and just plain bad as these two episodes.
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>>78020870
Well.

That's a punch in the eye.
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>Zuko visits Iroh in prison and begs for his advice and guidance
>Iroh turns his back to him and refuses to speak
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>>78014950
>Sokka is the father of the worst Beifong

How sad
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>>78023124
That was part of the point, all of that flu mysticism bullshit that Iroh was spewing was just dumb crap that didn't matter in the end. Zuko still wanted to go home.
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>>78023124
>a character whose motivation has been to gain his father's admiration suddenly takes a course of action that will gain him his father's admiration
Gee, I wonder why.
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>>78023124
>after he's supposedly come to terms with his situation, after he says he's cool with everything that happened to him, he decides - for no logical reason - to side with and fully trust his psycho sister who wanted to murder him just a week ago because what the fuck is natural plot progression.

He only came to terms with the situation because he accepted that there was no way back for him. He wasn't happy about it, but he couldn't see any way his life wasn't going to be dirt poor refugee living in the Earth Kingdom.

Then his sister came and offered him a chance to get back on the "good side". He can come back home, honor restored, as a hero and get everything he ever wanted.

Why would he join the Gaang when Azula is literally offering him a get out of jail free card? Let us not forget those people were literally his enemies up until that moment. And sure, Azula may not be entirely trustworthy, but she is family, which is familiar, and "comfy". It's easier to choose the known vs. the unknown.

Besides, Azula was good at manipulating Zuko anyway. Is it really that big of a stretch to say her influence was the extra straw that tipped Zuko back to the Fire Nation's side? I mean, even in his "flu dream" the Azula dragon beat out the Iroh dragon.

Zuko is just naive (and willfully blind) enough to buy into what Azula is selling. But they sort of have a reverse older/younger sibling relationship, so it's no surprise. Despite being the younger one, Azula acts more like an older sister, bullying Zuko and generally taking lead, while Zuko tends to believe her completely wide-eyed, despite knowing deep down that Azula is a chronic liar, and going along with what she does (until he eventually joins Team Avatar).

Their relationship would be cute, if it wasn't so borderline abusive.
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>>78021542
That's because people can talk about things they enjoyed.
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>>78023124
>for no logical reason
It would be way less logical if he suddenly decided to abandon his entire worldview so he could live in a tea shop instead of finally achieving his life's dream of being welcomed home by his father.
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>>78023124
>Say what you want about The Legend of Korra, but that series never comes anywhere close to being as trite, forced and just plain bad as these two episodes.

I can't believe there are people with opinions this wrong.
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>>78023124
Legend of Korra fans confirmed for literally not being able to comprehend complex characters
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>>78023124
yeah, shut up
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>>78023124
>Say what you want about The Legend of Korra, but that series never comes anywhere close to being as trite, forced and just plain bad as these two episodes

I really hope you're trolling

But in my heart

I know

You're not
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>>78023124
Jesus FUCK that's the ENTIRE POINT

Zuko is CONFLICTED. He's trying to reconcile the worldview he's been MOLDED into for FOURTEEN years with Iroh's new way of life

And you know what? Sometimes, when you're conflicted about a decision, you end up MAKING THE WRONG CHOICE
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>>78020795
He was responsible for the bomb planted at the Water Tribe embassy in Republic City, they don't say anyone died because Kid's Show, but bombing a civic building in a huge city like that would usually guarantee at least a few night workers and security guards were killed, if not others.
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>>78023856
Zuko is not complex, the guy is just an idiot.
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>>78023243
>when they eventually re-meet at camp
>that hug
>my emotions
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>>78015357
Varrick is one magnificent bastard.

He goes from schmuck to hero to bastard to hero again. It's like a roller coaster.
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>>78024012
He's overused comedic relief.

His rogue like qualities would be much more appreciated if he wasn't the one smart character in a series PACKED TO THE BRIM with retards
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>>78024026
I can't agree with that. That show had too much brooding to not have his comic relief.
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>>78024012
The last turn to hero was so forced it wasn't funny. There's no development. He just instantly has a conscience and switches around completely in one scene.
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>>78023124
>what the fuck is natural plot progression.
This WAS natural character progression. If he'd sided with the Gaang it would be completely unnatural character progression driven entirely by the plot and not at all by how he would believable grow.
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>>78024233
Really? You think giving a nuke to a psycho like Kuvira wouldn't make anyone think twice?
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>>78024205
Varrick was best characterized in Book 2

By Book 3 he became a bit cringey

And by Book 4 he became wacky invention man
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>>78015357
Varrick was the best villain in the series. It's just a shame that his season couldn't decide if it wanted to focus on the civil war or the spirit shit.
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>yfw this fight

fucking beautiful
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>>78012804
>>78020809
Iroh did command thousands of soldiers that fought and died at the walls of Ba Sing Se, one of which was his son. He had to have felt some loyalty still even if it was just to make his previous sacrifices seem valid.
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>>78009742
>>78011484

I'm glad we got what we got in the end.

Iroh being evil would have sucked.

I like Zuko realizing what he thought he wanted and was honour wasn't what he really needed.
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>>78024352
He had no indication that Kuvira was anything but a great person until AFTER his turn. And yes, it's extremely unnatural for his turn around to suddenly come from gaining a conscience for no reason other than the plot demanding it.
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>>78014073
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>>78023124
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>>78019244
Dude. Embrace it. Rejoice in it like I did. Enjoy the show without the bulls$it that went with it.
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>>78025638
>tfw watched ATLA last summer after seeing so any co threads
>tfw loved it, no threads, no spoilers, finished it all in half a week
>tfw went on to Korra
>still haven't finished it
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>>78025698
If it helps, while season 2 is 90% shit, season 3 is actually pretty good.
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>>78025310
How could he not? You'd have to be Bolin-level retarded to not know.
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>>78025725
I actually stopped after Season 3. Yeah that was the high point for sure. I just can't go on. I don't like anyone who isn't called Varrick. Even Tenzin is a huge dick, and I really thought I'd like him.
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>>78025837
But anon, she wasn't a psychopath at all. She was completely right.
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>>78024233
To be perfectly honest, I was long past caring at that stage.
I'm not going to defend it or say it wasn't bad writing, I just didn't really give a shit by then.
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>>78025927
She was Mao with tits.
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>>78025965
Literally nothing she did wasn't something beloved US Presidents have also done.
>>
>>78026021
>Abraham Lincoln single-handedly won the Civil War with a giant mecha
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>>78026173
I was talking about morality. Obviously no president has been a bender.

FDR used WMDs on cities full of civilians. And Kuvira only actually used hers after offering a surrender and the other side capturing her bf.
>>
>>78026173
>implying there's be anything wrong with that
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>>78026205
Are you retarded? She was trying to conquer a nation that hadn't been a part of the Earth Kingdom in over 150 years.

She had every intention on using that thing, regardless of the casualties.
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>>78025698

Um...have I been cloned, and my clone is posting on /co/?
>>
>>78011484
>Iroh (who genuinely supported the Fire Nation) would attack him for his treachery
Can we just admit that Aaron Ehasz was the true genius behind the original Avatar? The other two fuckers were simply the placeholders, and as shown by Korra, they can't write for shit without him

If Ehasz came back for Korra, maybe it wouldn't have turned out as convoluted and disastrous as it did. Hell, if this (alongside the abandoned love triangle plot) is anything to go by, he might have turned it into something genuinely good.
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>>78023124
>he suddenly isn't a dork anymore
there was an entire episode for that, when wanted to get Appa and Iroh talked to him

>after he says he's cool with everything that happened to him, he decides - for no logical reason - to side with and fully trust his psycho sister
no logical reason to go back to the fire nation? he has a shitty life in Ba sing se. In FN he goes back as a hero, gets the love of his father, and can even become firelord some day. That's very logical and objectively better than being obligated to side with the avatar and really piss off the firelord. Actually, siding with the avatar would make even less sense since he has no reason to help. The only thing he had is the promise that some holy water may heal his wounds.
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>>78026652
Based Giancarlo Volpe directed best stuff.
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>>78026408
you mean an area that has been stole from them and that 53 years ago they tried to take it back, only to have it stolen by the avatar. Time doesn't make it right. It just makes it forgetable.
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>>78026652
Ehasz was also a Zutaran.

So he totally should've been there, but Last Airbender was just a miracle of the right writers shooting down each other's shitty ideas at the right time.
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>>78026408
>She had every intention on using that thing, regardless of the casualties.
Except she totally wasn't when Raiko was peacefully surrendering.
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>>78026652
No.
Ehasz was an important part of the team but he was still only part of a team. He's not some magical pixie prince who can piss champagne like some people thing he is.
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>>78026408
>>78026987
It's 2015, Kuvira!

2 0 1 5
0
1
5
>>
>>78027015
>So he totally should've been there, but Last Airbender was just a miracle of the right writers shooting down each other's shitty ideas at the right time.
The only one they didn't shoot down in time was The Great Divide.
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>>78027015
>Last Airbender was just a miracle of the right writers shooting down each other's shitty ideas at the right time.
Holy shit, A:TLA is Star Wars. Korra is the prequels.
>>
>>78027223

First season is good but flawed second is GOAT and third is divisive crap. It really is Star Wars...
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>>78027242
Well I liked the third the best, so it's still Star Wars.
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>>78027207
That's not Sozin's Comet.
>>
>>78025911
I had a similar experience. I suffered through all of it as it aired, and when I finished with 3 I was just done, even though it had finally gotten to the point where I was actually excited to watch another episode when I finished the one I was on, after the finale I just couldn't stand the thought of watching S4 like a month after 3 ended.
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>>78025638
>censoring yourself
Anon, you're not on Deviantart anymore
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>>78023969
>>78023243
Are Iroh&Zuko the best father/son in all of /co/?
>>
>>78027207
I still don't understand the hate for this episode. It seemed absolutley average in my eyes.
>>
Anyone who's a fan of ATLA should watch this at least once.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdw6YmO8q_k
>>
>>78027575
Uncle Ben/Peter Parker?
>>
>>78027575
That made me tear up a bit. Fuque
>>
>>78027575
>I was never angry with you. I was sad, because I thought you'd lost your way.

HNGH!! MY HEART!
>>
Did Season 2 ever really have any weak points?
>>
>>78027242
And for Korra the first season is okayish, the second is utter shit, and the third is actually pretty good for the most part.

Poetry.
>>
>>78027575
Goofy/Max and John Silver/Jim Hawkins are serious contenders.
>>
>>78025099
Well, that's the whole point. He was fully on board with the Fire Nation and its imperialism just like his dad and granddad until his son died, and he suddenly realized war is hell. Afterwards it wouldn't have made sense though.
>>
File: uncleben'srice.jpg (35KB, 356x360px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
uncleben'srice.jpg
35KB, 356x360px
>>78027575
>father/son

you mean uncle/nephew.

but yeah i'd say they are the best.

>>78027797

I like them but Uncle Ben dies so quickly or is already dead in most stories.
>>
better have some tea
>>
>>78027635
Sifu Manny is a qt
>>
>>78029028

maybe the episode when they were hanging out with hippies underground?

I dunno it's pretty much perfect
>>
>>78031869
It did nothing to advance the plot but that hippie guy was one of the best one-shot characters and Korra and Aang thinking love is the only way out of the cave was cute
>>
File: image_14.jpg (34KB, 500x491px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
image_14.jpg
34KB, 500x491px
>>78033086

>Korra and Aang

Even Aang knew who had the better water tribe booty
>>
>>78027635
I hate that it focuses on the "stars" of the show, the creators. The lead writer was mentioned once. It was disappointing because of that.
>>
I think the whole Zuko/Suki thing in the comics is weird but kind of sweet too.
>>
>>78033556
Shippers go away.
>>
>>78033779
and thus /co/ became a wasteland, filled only with the anguished howling of hungry ghouls.
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