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What is it about this character that the mainstream just can't

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What is it about this character that the mainstream just can't accept that requires hacks like Snyder to totally warp him just to something wrong just to make a profit with audiences?
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The fact that he can do anything yet he doesn't.
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>>78002069
He's not a character.

His main character trait is that he's good. Boring.
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Here's your reply
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BOYS MMMMMMM...
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It's not the character's fault MOS happened to him. It's writers who have been doing nothing but mundaning him since we were children while simultaneously sucking Bat dick. The only though running through there head as they pen Superman is "WE GOTTA FIX HIM"
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Snyder didn't warp him, he depicted him as he has been since the 80's.

Face it, YOU are the one who doesn't accept Superman. You're the equivalent of people who saw Batman '89 and couldn't accept it being different from the '66 TV show.

All-Star Superman is not who Superman is. It was a tribute to Silver Age Superman. Superman was redefined by John Byrne and that's who he's been ever since, just like how O'Neil redefined Batman in the 70's.
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>>78002069

The problem is that he needs to be grounded in some kind of reality or limitation, or at the very least made into a real, breathing human character.

Really, the character he embodies was made perfect when he was re-imagined as Goku. Stronger, better, deeper, and resonating with more audience members. He's just so much better.
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>>78002069
Being a 100% good person void of any cynicism doesn't lend itself well to lots of people identifying with him in an era when cynicism is de rigueur and moral ideals are often questionnned, be it in their nature or content.
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>>78002069
People don't like inherently good characters because the see it as unrealistic that someone can be powerful and a purely good person. It's why so many depictions of Santa make him either an asshole or a slave driver because the idea that someone can be a truly good person bothers them. It's why people gravitate to flawed characters because they are flawed like them and makes them feel less guilty about not being better.

We as a people have stopped wanting to strive for an unobtainable greatness and are content to watch flawed people struggle and feel content in our own struggle because they see it as normal. We stopped dreaming of what we could be and are focused on what we are.
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>>78002172
Not a superfag but how the fuck is Goku deep?
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>>78002199
>It's why so many depictions of Santa make him either an asshole or a slave driver

You're aware most of those are dome for comedic effect right? Because ya know Santa is supposed to be jolly and friendly? You know what irony is?
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>>78002198
while he is an 100% good person void of any cynicism, he's also a beacon of compliance and conformity. not a great role model for people who like to use their brain.
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>>78002143
>Snyder didn't warp him, he depicted him as he has been since the 80's.
Why are you giving Snyder so much fucking credit? As if he know a speck about any era of Superman. They just copied Donner's Superman I and II and grim derped that shit up. It's been confirmed by Snyder that he's never read a Superman comic in his life during an interview. Also Bryne is a shitty Superman writer. He's the reason why Superman has stagnated today. Superman should be whose shown in ASS. That was a fantastic Superman.

Raise a generation of children on good Superman shit. The great Superman shit, not shit for the sake of shit.
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>>78002069
Society does not appreciate characters who are good people trying to save the world anymore.
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>>78002249

Ha ha, yeah, society, man. It's so dark, bro. Everyone's a sociopathic asshole. Fuck yeah.

Not that the people in the lead of bringing these characters to life are to blame.
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>>78002224
>Write about how people don't like perfectly good characters
>They make said character an asshole to make themselves feel better
>Apparently the fact that people make him an asshole to laugh at it changes things
Ok anon
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>>78002235
Anybody who's completely devoid of cynicism is a conformist by nature.
Thing is conformism is seen as a quality when society is seen as good, like back in the 50s and early 60s aswell as in the 80s and 90s. Nowadays? Not so much.
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>>78002307
It does you idiot. It's done for comedy. To be funny, you know? When Santa starts hurling garbage and yelling curses at shopping malls or at the Macy's parade maybe then you'll be right but as it stands it's done to be fucking funny. If there were a serious Christmas story that actually tries to argue that Santa is REALLY an asshole tyrant (like KOTOR 2 tries to do with the Jedi) maybe then you'd be right.
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>>78002322
>seen as good

only that it wasn't.
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>>78002239
>They just copied Donner's Superman I and II and grim derped that shit up
Read Superman Earth One or the book by John Byrne that is literally called Man of Steel. Read Birthright. While you're at it, watch something from the DCAU, which, while it didn't really influence MoS, also drew from the same 1985-1995 period from which MoS and the DCEU, in general (Dark Knight Batman, 90s Aquaman, Immortal Pre-New 52 Wonder Woman), is drawing from. The DCAU, much like MoS, presented a humanized depiction of Superman, with little resemblance to the one depicted when Morrison decided to "fix him" in 2008's All Star.

>Superman should be whose shown in ASS
>Superman should be as he was in an Elseworld
The guy you're responding to was right.
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>>78002287
Personally I did not have a problem with Superman killing Zod.The problem I had was that Snyder wrote the movie in a way to make audiences think Superman was the bad guy for doing the right thing.
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>>78002172
100% Agreed

>>78002223
He can turn into a giant gorilla
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>>78002287
Not to say the writers don't have any guilt, but some stories and characters are more adapted to an era's zeitgeist than to another.
Trying to change a character's essence so that they fit in the current zeitgeist is perilous and almost mostly done with corporate-owned IPs like Supes or Mickey Mouse.
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>>78002172
Goku only 'resonates' with sociopaths and third world mud-monkeys like Brazilians who much like him too stupid to bother with the pesky notions of right and wrong. I don't like Superman but Goku is 100 times worse since he's literally Superman without any semblance of a moral filter.
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>>78002365
But that's wrong. We ll except if you happened to not be white.
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>>78002223
I'm not that guy but
The only message Goku has is that saiyans get stronger when they get back up from defeat. Otherwise he is a generic anime character with one note to him: lol I like fighting and eating! Oh noooo! You killled my frieeeeendssss!
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>>78002345
>Public opinion apparently can't be effected by comedy
Yeah man that's why those jokes about Aquaman being useless were just for fun and no one is stupid enough to actually believe them. Except we're talking about the general population and that's full of idiots.
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>>78002143
Are you an edgelord, sperglord or both?
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>>78002366
I agree with your post but
>when Morrison decided to fix him
is wrong, I believe.
I'm fairly sure Morrison's intent was to write a love letter to Silver Age Superman, not impose a strict concept of what Superman should be.
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>>78002449
>MUH AQUAMANG IS VEEEEWY SERIOUS CHAWACTER

>STOP LAFFING!!!!
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>>78002366
Again, you are giving Synder too much credit if you think he's not only read enough of the character in any era but read him at all. The writer of Birthright was the first to speak his dislike for MOS so that's not a credit to the film.

Superman has been being mundane to hell and back for 30 years and the plummeted quality attests how this has not been a good thing. Bryne went too far in Marvelizing him with very little positive return.

>The guy you're responding to was right.
I guess he is and that's terrible.
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>>78002235
>while he is an 100% good person void of any cynicism, he's also a beacon of compliance and conformity. not a great role model for people who like to use their brain.
>tips fedora

[fixed it for ya]
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>>78002478
excellent retort. obviously you have no arguments here.
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>>78002449
>Judging the entire public perception based on a handful of examples

So do you believe parents these days tell their kids Santa is a cunt who will shit down your chimney? Do they line up at malls to sit on his lap because they want their kids to be yelled at by a scary old man?
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>>78002476
The guy behind Birthright praised everything except for the Zod death (which is Byrne; we already know Waid's opinion on superheroes who kill from Kingdom Come, which is why he reacted so negatively to Superman killing) and acknowledged that much of Birthright was in the movie.
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>>78002287
What, you're saying that modern society isn't overridden by aggressively individualistic, meme-spouting, brand-loving, fedora-tipping super edgelords? Westerners around the world leave in droves to fight for ISIS. Being a "good" person nowadays only earns you a few likes on Facebook.
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>>78002089
Religion 101, which is also what they went with with Supes, not sure if ironic or just stupid.
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>>78002069
because Superman is not compelling to the youth of today. the call of duty millenial generation does not appreciate his morals
story wise?
he never recovered from death of superman and that has pretty much colored the modern day interpretation of him
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I'd say it's got nothing to do with the mainstream, as the mainstream rejects Snyder's retarded grimderp interpretation.

It's cocaine addled hollywood execs and a few fags on /co/ that eat that shit up.
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>>78002500
No, because most parents don't spend enough time at home, with their kids, to talk to them about Christmas. At most, they take their kids to the daycare at the mall and leave them there while they can go hang with their friends or party at the club till midnight, kids be damned.

And that's assuming they celebrate Christmas anymore and don't just ban it from their household, like most people do these times.
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>>78002453
Exactly. Morrison has said before he only has one rule with Superman that puts a barrier around the most generic outcomes and elevating the level of thinking involved. We need to put more writer's in depth thoughtfulness on the big screen that doesn't believe the character inherently has no merit.
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>>78002458
Yeah that shit. Dudes a joke now cause people started a joke and it got taken seriously. How can you say that public opinion can't be portrayed and swayed through comedy.
>>78002500
And as a kid most kids thought supes was great cause he was a good guy that helped people but now that isn't good enough I guess. As we get more cynical we move away from these characters. Which is why in many adult shows they'll always show these characters as assholes cause it fits the idea that no one can be that good.
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>>78002069
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>>78002583
I'm not sure if we're supposed to be looking at the 56% critical rating or the 76% audience one.

>>78002561
How has Snyder demonstrated his supposed belief that the character has no merit?
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Because it's hard to relate to Superman by today's cynical standards.

He's this unstoppable being whose handsome as fuck. Sure he's technically an immigrant, but he easily passes for a WASP with his blue eyes and dark hair. The fact that he grew up in Kansas by an all-American couple made it far simpler to hide.

I really like the Gods and Monsters Elseworld because Hernan Is more of an outsider than Clark. His swarthy features is what made everyone else think he's Mexican like his adopted family. And he grew up being scorned and looked down upon by the white employers on the farms his family toiled on. I find Hernan to be far more relatable than Clark because the crux of cape comics is immersion via proxy. Many if not most comic fans can easily relate to Hernan because he's a bit of an outcast like themselves.

And despite being more ruthless, it doesn't make him edgy. He happens to have the powers of a god, but is all too human in his frailties.

Superman in JL/Unlimited is a depiction I respected. He has deep issues thanks to being brainwashed and treated like a pariah. It took him years to regain the public trust, but the damage was done. He even lost sight of his optimism; Darkseid truly fucked over TAS Superman in a way very few villains have.

What makes TAS Superman compelling is that after the finale, he resumed his duty as a hero. And he'd have to deal with trash being thrown at him, told to go fuck off, hearing everyone whispering about "the alien". And maintaining his job at the Daily Planet. That truly goes to show you what sort of man TAS Clark was.
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>>78002069
supposedly he's unrelateable.
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>>78002662
Audience is basically will it entertain you, critical is will it make you think or anything, nitpicking writing, cinematography, tone, etc, I think.
Some films are simply to entertain so you can ignore the 'professional critics' and such if that's the goal, though not entirely sure how often that happens, especially for a film with source material from another medium or some such.
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>>78002511
Well the people fighting for Isis think they're doing the world good, anon, that sort of defeats your point.
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>>78002570
Aquaman was already a joke in superfriends though.
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>>78002239
You fucking moron, the title of the movie comes from Byrne's reboot, and the entire plot is based on the part where, guess what, Superman kills Zod and friends in desperation.

What's next, you're gonna tell me the Dark Knight movies weren't based on Year One and the Long Halloween because you don't like Nolan? Goyer wrote the scripts for all four of these anyways.

>Superman should be who's shown in ASS

Christ, I bet you've never read a single Superman story printed before 2007.
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This one goes to everyone who expected Superman to be the exact same character since silver or golden age

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xerE0pbJKQ
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>MOS Superman was a warped Superman
Why? Because he killed Zod in self-Defense? MOS Clark was very much Superman and only plebs think otherwise.
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>>78002777
He really wasn't.
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>>78002555
>Grimderp
MoS wasn't grim,Dark or Gritty. It was dramatic and took the source material seriously but it wasn't cynical by any accounts.
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>>78002911
>Superman literally murders a city without a single concern for anyone who might be killed or injured
>flies away with a great big smile on his face as thousands lay dead or dying
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>>78002381
>snyder wrote MoS
Are you retarded or something?
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>>78002987
>Superman murders an entire city
No the world engine did that.
>b-b-but what about his fight with zod?
Have you never read a comic book ever? Superpower brawls in cities happen all the goddamn time in comics
>without a single concern who might be killed or injured
Except for that family he saved.
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>>78002987
>murders a city
World engine decimates it.

>flies away with a great big smile on his face as thousands lay dead or dying
This is how I can tell that you just know this movie from memes, but haven't actually watched it yourself.
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>>78002987
More like cried like a bitch over killing a genocidal maniac rather than crying about the thousands that asshole killed.
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>>78002987
Hollywoodland was fantastic. Really shed light on how George Reeves had to deal with typecasting.

>That scene with the little kid and his dad's gun
This is allegedly an urban myth, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some truth to it.
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>>78003055
He was crying for both.
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>>78002819
>golden age

The people who hated MoS would go apeshit at a Golden Age Superman movie to an extent that their reaction towards MoS would look tame. Such people only care about the Silver Age, and despise everything else, along with the Modern Age.
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>>78002937
Right.
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>>78002503
Waid like Goyer's Johnathan Kent but as soon as the Zod part came he checked out and all the rest became white noise. Meaning MOS lacked the themes in Birthright. Next you'll say MOS was adapting ASS too because it stole lines from it.
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>>78003279
>as soon as the Zod part

Literally the ending.
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>>78003298
True but doesn't change the fact Waid commented on almost nothing else. There wasn't much praise at all.
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>>78002366
>Read Superman Earth One or the book by John Byrne that is literally called Man of Steel. Read Birthright
Birthright was my favorite well before this and it was specifically because of MoS that I read Earth One and you're still full of shit.

Snyder (or more likely Goyer) took scenes and elements from them, yes, but with a complete misunderstanding of why they worked in context. He made a frankstein's monster of a movie with elements taken from very different interpretations that when given life should not have been and relied almost exclusively on telling rather than showing to get any attempts at a point across.

Maybe YOU'RE the on that needs to reread those comics or rewatch that cartoon if you don't see the difference between Earth One Clark and DCAU Clark

Man of Steel has no consistent characterization because all they cared about were individual scenes and action beats rather than the gestalt.
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>>78003381
>muh context
I bet you think Watchmen was a bad adaption.
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>>78002818
>the title of the movie comes from Byrne's reboot,
You might not know this being from /tv/ and all but Superman was called the Man of Steel well before Byrne ever started writing him.
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>>78002069

Ummm...nothing? A clear cut "superhero stops alien invasion" story would have done better overall.
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>>78003356
Because the article wasn't about how much he liked Johnathan Kent, or the fact MoS depicted Superman as an outcast, traveling around the world while attempting to hide his identity per the advice from his father. It was about his opinion on the necksnap.

>“I guess the reaction to my review was disappointing to me a little, because while most people seemed to get it, there’s been a reductive aspersion cast on it by a lot of people. More and more I’ve seen, “Read here why Mark Waid hates Man of Steel.” Well, that’s not what I said… I was broken hearted, I was disappointed, I was gutted by that one scene as much as anything else or certainly the last third of the movie, but I also liked a lot of things about it. I even kind of understand why they went that way, so this isn’t, “It’s not my Superman,” or “Why can’t it be like the ’50s when I was growing up?” It’s not that at all.

I guess you're not "most people."
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>>78003400
>>78003400
Wow it's fucking nothing. Just like how every other defense of this movie boils down to "shut up its a masterpiece your a fag" Yelling NO U and accusing others of lacking the ability to think critically doesn't actually hide the fact that you can't.
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>>78003471
>>78003471
>>78003471
>>78003471
>>78003471
(You)
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>>78003400
Not him but it was. Well, maybe bad isnt quite the word. Certainly inferior to the source material though.
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>>78003554
For a an film based on a comic that the creator deemed unfilmable, I'd say it's a damn good adaption.
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>>78003604
Every change made for the film was a change for the worse.
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>>78003675
'no'
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>>78003604
>that the creator deemed unfilmable,
I have no idea why you'd mention Moore like it helps your case given he hates it.
And yes, the comic WAS unfilmable. That's why they changed things;.
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>>78003806
>muh squid
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>>78002777
Why should a goofy lowbudget 70s cartoon be the defining characterization of Aquaman

You might as well bring up the 60s Spider-man series and call Peter a joke too. Or the 60s Fantastic Four cartoon's version of Magneto.
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>>78002069
>Not Muh: The Thread
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>>78003131
>retard brings up early comics that have never had defining traits of the character
Yeah go find you image from Batman's first appearance where that guy chokes to death midair please
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>>78003863
>Why should a goofy lowbudget 70s cartoon be the defining characterization of Aquaman
Because it reached more people than the comics and he wasn't in the DCAU enough to counteract that.
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>>78003863
I'm not saying it should be, follow the discussion before my post, I'm saying the characterization he had in official material is what caused people to see him as a joke, *not* the jokes that were made about him (which were based on people seeing him as a joke already).
I was disagreeing with
>>78002570
>Dudes a joke now cause people started a joke and it got taken seriously.

And hey, wouldn't you know it, nobody takes the F4 seriously either. Spider-Man had many other mainstream incarnations.
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>>78003836
Memester who hasn't read Watchmen detected
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>>78003604
>>78003806
Wait wasn't the "unfilmable" bit mostly about the parallel story with the pirates n shit?
Doesn't really lend itself to film.
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>>78004025
Yeah, I was thinking specifically of the Tales of Black Freighter (which got animated but still not the same) but it's way easier for shitposters to just go "muh x" and put words in their opponents mouths.
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>>78003989
>Because it reached more people than the comics
And? Ultron in his film is a joke too, that doesn't mean it should be his iconic interpretation.

>>78003993
>And hey, wouldn't you know it, nobody takes the F4 seriously either
I was talking about Magneto in that post
You're still wrong anyway
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>>78004067
>I was talking about Magneto in that post
I'm aware, but I don't think that portrayal really stuck in people's mind, while the F4 themselves stayed. So I thought it would work better with thge point you were trying to make.

>You're still wrong anyway
Explain how,.
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>>78003939
>never had defining traits of the characters
>literally the original character

Since we've established that only Silver Age Superman is relevant, I say we do the same for Silver Age Batman, as well.
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>>78004067
>And? Ultron in his film is a joke too, that doesn't mean it should be his iconic interpretation.
Should be? No.
Will be? We'll have to wait and see.
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>>78004003
Oh but I have reddit
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>>78004025
that, the panel and page composition patterns, double meaning verbal symbolism, the entire context of Manhattan's story only making sense in the context of a comic, a shit load of details in each frame, etc.
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>>78004117
Adam West isn't silver age comic Batman you fucking idiot.
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>>78004295
Adam West was actually less over the top.
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>>78004329
>taking a panel out of context

Yeah you truly are an idiot
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>>78004693
Not him but have you actually read Silver Age Batman?
It's often downright silly.

And the context (that Batman has to fight a villain whose attacks are based on colors) doesn't really make the panel less silly.
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>>78004693
Here's a group of panels AND their context. Silver Age DC was fucking weird.

http://sacomics.blogspot.com/2006/03/worst-batman-story-of-silver-age.html
>>
Any character can work or not work in any adaptation. The enduring popularity of Superman in this case is evident of that. The problem is he's had terrible adaptations ever since Superman III. When people talk about him, they try to literalize him which is intrinsically the problem, because he's not real. He'll never be real. They do the same thing for Batman, but even though he could never be real either, they think can be real. The moment you try to literalize how Superman can exist is the moment you take your self out of the experience.
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>>78002069
God i am so sick of you fucking asspained neckbeards. Can't wait to drink your tears when BVS makes a shit ton of bank.
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>>78004801
There's so much fucking trapeze in Silver Age Batman.
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>>78002239
>Why are you giving Snyder so much fucking credit?
Why are YOU giving him so much credit? Goyer fucking wrote MOS
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>>78004831
>The enduring popularity of Superman in this case is evident of that.
Well see, that's disputable. 1st of all, Superman has gone from the most popular superhero in the world to top 5 at best. His popularity relatively lowered.
Second of all, his being the flagship character of a large company, aswell as a crucial part of the shared universe of that company's comics, has certainly helped to maintain his popularity. You can't really have a DC-wide event or something JLA themed where Supes isn't front and center.
Third, Superman (and DC) has known HUGE transformations as a character throughout his continued popularity.

I agree with your point about realism being taken too seriously or being too much of a factor for people though, but that issue also stems from trying to put him in a world that ressembles ours. Nobody complains about the realism in LotR or Star Wars.
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>>78005003
Superman is certainly still a top 5 popular hero globally, people wear Superman shirts more so than any other character save maybe Batman. I wouldn't put him any lower than 4, and sure he's taken a few back, but that's relative to being in so many bad movies.
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>>78004762
>that Batman has to fight a villain whose attacks are based on colors
No, the context is that Batman is wearing different colored costumes to get attention off of Robin's arm which he hurt as Dick trying to save a girl a few days ago

The color monster or whatever you're talking about is something else entirely
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>>78005046
Superman is the most popular cape hero ever but he's also the most hated hero.
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>>78004886
>Why are YOU giving him so much credit? Goyer fucking wrote MOS
Not even that anon but do you seriously think a director has no input over a movie's story or dialogue? That the script the writer puts out is immutable?
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>>78005070
Superman isn't hated. He's just boring and uninteresting.

>Character that can litterally do anything and everything
>Invulnerable to all but a few things like Magic and Kryptonite
>Pretty much a god
>Worst rogues gallery of almost any hero with a comic book
>rarely portrayed as having any real flaws
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>>78005119
Yeah but people shit soly on Snyder as if he wrote it and had 100% creative control. If you acknowledge that movies are a collaborative process than spread some of the blame around for MOS not being what you wanted it to be instead of just Shitting on Snyder.
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>>78005062
My bad, I was going from my bad memories of the BatB episode.

Although this is even more silly, and even silver age-er.
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>>78005128
>worst rouges gallery of any hero with a comic book
Really? Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Mogul, Darkseid, Mr.Myxpltz, Parasite, and metalo not good enough? I'm not saying they're all top tier but saying they're the worst is kinda extreme
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>>78005046
Spider-Man and Batman got him for sure, beyond that it's disputable, but Wolverine and/or Iron Man may have a case. Yeah you're right, he's definitely top 5.
Honestly I wouldn't put too much stock in Superman shirts and tattoos, people wear those because they want to say that they're strong and/or good, not really to signify their love of the character. Hell I knew a guy who hated Supes who had Superman underwear, because yeah brah! Besides it's a slick logo and color scheme.

> that's relative to being in so many bad movies.
I mean, who hasn't?
>>
>>78005128
>Worst rogues gallery of almost any hero with a comic book
I can't agree with that simply because of Luthor. Him having an entirely human nemesis is genius. It's not always treated well but it can work wonders.

The rest is a bit hyperbolic but mostly true.
>>
>>78005161
With all due respect how short is your memory? People that hated Man of Steel were calling Goyer shit for two years, and still do. The reason you're seeing a bunch of people yelling at Snyder now as well is because defenders have gone BASED TERRIO BVS IS SAVED BEST MOVIE EVER, like Snyder wasn't also a part of the problem. No one is solely blaming him.

You're absolutely right that films are a collaborative process. but that means you can't pick and choose who to blame if you want to defend a work.

However, having said all that, the director does take the lion's share of the blame for good reason. Because that's his *job*. The director is second only to the producers (and even then it's arguable) in terms of how much creative control he has over a project.
If there's bad dialogue, it is within a director's remit to change it.
If a director doesn't like a script, it is within his remit to bring in a new guy to write it. (we know this to be the case from the failed production of Superman Lives; WB wanted to hire Burton, Burton wanted to bring in his own script writer).
If there is a problem with the editing, you CAN and should blame the editor, but you should also ask yourself "How involved is the director in the editing process", because that's the reason we have Director's Cuts in the first place.
If there's a problem with the cinematography, yeah, that can be the DP's fault, but who is the filter that the shots got run through?

People are blaming Snyder because
1. He's the consistent thread
2. The buck stopped with him even if Goyer was the root of a lot of the movie's problems.
>>
>>78002089
First thing he does in Birthright is help out an African nation in political turmoil.

I wish this meme of "All Superman does is fight bad guys"would die.

>>78002098
His main character trait is that he's a god that likes to be a human.
>>
>>78005281
>If there's bad dialogue, it is within a director's remit to change it.
>If a director doesn't like a script, it is within his remit to bring in a new guy to write it.
Those can depend on executive meddling (or more accurately how much power is actually given to the director), but I don't remember much of that in MoS, could be wrong though.
>>
>>78002199
>unobtainable greatness

It's not even unobtainable. Just be a good, grounded person like Tom Jode or Atticus Finch or the juror from 12 Angry Men.

Being a good person is possible without super powers, that's Superman's whole stance.
>>
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>>78005308
>he's a god that likes to be a human.
Bretty gud.
>>
>>78002069
I think what happens is that people expect something to come out and are to afraid to try something new. So when they want to try a new hero they are like"Why should we use the Flash. Green Lantern, or The Question? People don't know much about them. They wont understand!"
>>
>>78005128
You know I respect your opinion, no matter how retarded it is.
>>
>>78005370
Yeah but for the people who dismiss him they see it as unobtainable or unrealistic that someone would be that a good person.
>>
>>78005353
Again, while true, that also a bit of an oversimplification.

The producers are the executives that would be doing the meddling. They're the ones that sign the checks, so at the end of the day their word is law.
They're the ones that select a director and can then exert their will over him, or not. Marvel movies are notorious for doing that and removing any auterial fingerprints the director might have. That's a way to go and it can have mixed results. So you're right about that.
However, in the day to day stuff, the actual "this take is good, this take is bad, let's go with the first one" that's the Director. He's the second step down, the guy actually in the "combat zone" that is making the film.
Then beneath him we have the head writer (Goyer). the Director of Photography (the one you should actually credit all of the "epic cinematography and visuals for), the other heads of their teams. Then beneath that we have the grips, the lighting guys, etc.
(I've done the bottom rung of that ladder; production assistant. and also boom mic stuff)

So when it comes to assigning blame or credit, all that shit flows uphill. And if everything is done right, you won't see where one department excelled or one department fucked up. When it does happen, you then have to ask "how involved is the director in this facet of his process" because he's the one doing the on site overseeing. Because you have guys like for example Sergio Leone, who would let his actors improvise dialogue. Then you have guys like Kubrick, who demand hundreds of takes. You have directors that do their own writing, or directors that do their own editing.

We don't really know what kind of director Snyder is (we have to depend on stuff like interviews for that) but from what he's revealed about behind the scenes Man of Steel stuff, he was absolutely doing his due diligence to convince the producers of various things (like the ending) so yeah, hes should take some blame for the
>>
>>78002583
Post the Cinemascore rating. You know, the one that actually matters.

It's an A-
>>
>>78005603
Man, that was a long pointless post that didn't contradict mine in any way or mostly gave me any information I didn't already know.
>>
>>78005248
Lex , Brainiac and Darksied are interesting but all the others are just not on the level of the best Rogues galleries in my opinion. Even Flash has better villains.
>>
>>78005738
Sorry. Man of Steel threads have put me in the mindset that I need to explain everything as though it were to a child.
>>
>>78005751
>Brainiac
>Darkseid
>interesting
Nah. They're alright but they're not interesting.

Flash is considered to have one if not the best rogues gallery.
>>
>>78005773
slit your wrists
>>
>>78005805
Right. Because of stuff like that.
>>
>>78002069
His comic book version is boring trash. At least the movie version tries to be a little realistic.
>>
>>78005773
No problem.
I haven't been discussing MoS itt except for that post about movie-making in general, in fact I haven't even seen it, but I find the discussion about it interesting nonetheless.
>>
>>78005791
Superman's rogues are so varied.
Darkseid. Tyrant who wants to control life
Doomsday. Mindless killer
Mr. Mxysptlk. Wants to play games with his unlimited power
Morgan Edge. Mob boss
Lex Luthor. Egocentric criminal mastermind
Metallo, Parasite, Livewire, Batman, Goku, Maxima, Zod.

Superman villains are cool, but they aren't as interesting as Superman
>>
>>78005979
The only villain of him I really like is Luthor, sorry m8.
It's just so fucking genius how you can build their relationship in different ways and it still fucking works, simply because Luthor is so eminently human. May have been swayed on that by Smallville though.

Doomsday is a physical match for Supes, which, sorry I don't like Supes because he's good at punching things. Well I sort of do but what I like is problems he can't punch away.
And not Mxywhatever problems he can't punch away either, this shit is full-on Silver Age, and while I don't mind it at all (it's fun), I don't find it interesting either.

Mob boss, some robot.guy with kryptonite, that chick that does electricity and joke answers aren't interesting either.
I mean I can understand liking Zod, but I have little interest in Kryptonian bs in general, I like Supes as an estranged alien who tries to be an earthling.

Darkseid.. is not bad, he's just a bit too caricaturally evil God.

And hey, I understand that's all very subjective, but that's "muh Supes", from a guy with sparse comic reading (but a bit from all eras). I think he's most interesting when he's at odds with a being human, and that includes Luthor I guess.
>>
>>78002345
Satire is serious. Just because you're getting people to laugh at it, doesn't mean you aren't showing them some sort of message, like maybe how Santa being an elf slave driver is a satire on how the toys little Suzy and Timmy beg for at Christmas time are actually made, in some third-world, shit hole sweat shop.
Laughter, in fact, is an inherently aggressive response.
>>
>>78006178
I can respect that. I like him as a man who does what he can to protect life. Whether it's fighting off the god of evil, stopping a mugging or talking to a suicidal girl.
>>
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He;s been compared to Goku so many times all people want to see is him punching stuff really hard. Also, no one likes a boy scout anymore, sign of the times.
>>
>>78006314
That's fair, I like him as that. In fact that's probably what drove me to like him, when before I found him to be an interesting character (in the sense that he lends himself to unique stories), and even before that I was an edgy hater.

The Godlike/human thing and his stuggle with Luthor is what I find uniquely interesting about Superman. But that's not the only thing about him I like.

Then again that was also the door to me liking him: one of Supes' most definite flaw is he's not as human as he'd want to be, and he can't save Luthor despite not usually seeing him as irredeemable.
>>
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>>78005791
>Brainiac
>Darkseid
>not interesting

Nigga...

>>78006466
>He;s been compared to Goku so many times

Why do you think this is? Goku was influenced by Superman; not the other way around. But since Goku kicked Superman out of his own niche, people now complain if Superman does what he was doing long before Goku appeared, when he ends up in a movie with him fighting over the top battles with aliens. It's annoying when people complain about MoS feeling like DBZ; it's like calling Darkseid a Thanos ripoff.
>>
>>78007162
>I AM THE EVILEST MUHAHAHAHA
Not my cup of tea I guess.
>>
>>78005308
>First thing he does in Birthright is help out an African nation in political turmoil.

Wasn't done that well. Standard white savior narrative, didn't even have to be supes to tell that story.

>His main character trait is that he's a god that likes to be a human.

That's one of many possible takes on the character. Any of which can be executed well in the hands of a capable writer.
>>
>>78002366
I loved MOS, but never bring up Earth One.
It's absolute shit.
>>
>>78002436
I admit, I'm not exactly an /a/ historian, but wasn't Goku one of the earliest examples of that?
>>
>>78002069
>What is it about this character that the /co/ just can't accept that bars them from realizing that Superman shouldn't be relegated to being a product of his era?
>>
>>78007377
>I AM THE EVILEST MUHAHAHAHA
Sort of sums up how I feel about Darkseid in general.
>>
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>>78008000
>Being a mature person with a good sense of morals relegates him to an earlier time, and making him angsty and rage-filled makes him more modern.
Gee, thanks Anon.
>>
>>78008183
>This much straw manning
Gee, thanks Anon.
>>
'Cause no one wants to know the man who stands for things we outgrow
He's too noble and too blind
We're all older now and we don't need someone to care about
The innocence we left behind

And what if he can fly?
Hey, well so can I
Jet Blue or United Airlines
And who cares if he's strong
All we see's the wrong we've done
Reflected in his eyes
>>
>>78008000
Well, plenty of characters have been modernized and managed to appeal to the mainstream. Notably (for comparisons' sake) Batman, Captain America and Spider-Man.
>>
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>>78008387
>>
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>>78009431
It's like people thanking god for 1 person surviving a plane crash that kills hundreds.
>>
>>78009240
And there's no reason Superman shouldn't be accepted, the same way.
>>
>>78006466
>no one likes a boy scout anymore, sign of the times.
bullshit
>>
>>78007734
So is MOS for the simple fact Superman commits fucking genocide in it.
>>
>>78009431
What's interesting is how the trailers are already "fixing" the ending of MoS by actually showing that people were suffering during the fight between Zod and Supes instead of pretending no one was still around

Even my 10yo brother noticed it
>Ahah, but that lady said Superman saved them!
>>
>>78009787
I'm only now noticing the tiny flag on the left shoulder
>>
>>78002069
As has been said, he's too good for our time. Also, the mainstream do not really know him. They remember the Donner movies and think that Superman is just the one with Reed.
Everyone thinks he's too strong, when, most of the time in the comic or even in animated, he's a top tier Jobber .
>>
>>78009932
>instead of pretending no one was still around
I don't know how anyone can claim the movie did this when so much of the final act was destruction porn.
>>
>>78010000
I find it more annoying when people aknowledge that there were civilians dying but justify it, saying that Superman couldn't have done anything because "Zod said he wanted to kill them all!"
>>
>>78009980
this basically

Considering all the mistakes he makes and times he loses and/or needed a team to win, nothing drives me up a wall more than the people who, when asked why they don't like Superman, answer, "he's too perfect," or "he never loses." Same shit with Cap. honestly. Ideally cap should be written like a modernist hero in a post-modern world, and often he is, but people just make it to the posterboy phase and read no deeper.

>TL;DR
People don't know what they're talking about and base their opinions on assumptions.
>>
>>78009787
Nobody gives a fuck about the actual characters in Marvel movies, they just love the witty quips and action. The movies barely even gives anyone any characterization to begin with. Can you even sum up what Cap in the movies is even all about?
>>
>>78002239
>It's been confirmed by Snyder that he's never read a Superman comic in his life during an interview.
>being this retarded
He said that he didn't look to one particular Superman comic for direct inspiration, instead his framework was of doing the exact opposite of the boy scout Superman in TDKR
That doesn't mean that there weren't moments in Man of Steel which referenced comics and earlier media, you'd have to be braindead to think Snyder didn't pay homage to Superman comics throughout the movie
>>
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>"You're not a true Superman fan If you like MoS"
>Only read All Star Superman
>>
>>78002143
Not the anon you replied to, but in all this years of reading Supes i missed where he lost his personality and tried to reenact Jesus imagenary like visionary director Hack Snyder did. Please show me the comic.
>>
>>78011151
>I missed the Jesus imagery
So you've got 0.06 years of reading Superman?
>>
>>78010959
I can give you examples until the dawn of time of Superman doing stuff to avoid the loss of life and none of them would've come from All Star Superman.

The gall MoS shitposters have to taunt the superman fans then back pedal the moment they start posting examples of how Superman would've handled the scene if Snyder wasn't a hack it's the moment they go into "B-But MoS is different! It's a reconstruction! Snyder said so!"

I've danced the tango and MoS defenders in this board proved to me to be argument baiting fags that change their tune to warp the idea that their representation of Superman is ok, when it's a crappy, lousy try at re imagining a classic.
>>
>>78011182
I guess i did. Would you at least say wich comic shows it?
Btw do you enjoy said Jesus imagenary? cause i dont.
>>
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>>78011250
>"B-but muh superman is differant! I say so!"
>>
>>78011182
Superman comics don't really have space Jesus themes, senpai

That was bullshit the Reeve movies started and Returns and MoS followed it blindly

Besides the whole comparison falls apart when you realize Superman saves physically and Jesus saves spiritually, total disconnect
>>
>>78002123
Is he fucking Mercy or does he have a boys folder?

whynotboth.jpg
>>
>>78010344
Yes. Can't you, really?
>>
The whole idea that Superman's current... status is due to some vague sense of modern cynicism and societal "maturity" kind of rings a bit hollow to me.

I mean I wasn't there to see it, obviously, but nothing I've heard of the late 1930's to mid-40's paints it as a time of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. I mean, the great depression, WWII etc. The 50's and early 60's weren't the innocent, shiny happy paradise they're frequently made out to be either.

I mean hell, the Richard Donner Superman film came out in the late 70's. In a post-Watergate, post-Vietnam America that must have been drowning in it's own disillusionment. And yet it was a succesful and critically well received movie anyway.

It just seems a bit... nostalgic? Oh, the reason Superman struggles these days is because things got DARK, man. Not like the good ol' days where everything was totally fine and nothing bad ever happened.

I don't know. I'm probably just talking shit. It's the fanboy in me, but I feel like the problem with Superman is that people keep treating him like there's a problem. Like, taking the tack that he's broken and needs fixing displays a real lack of confidence and that kind of self-concious "please like me" approach is probably not the ideal way to go about things.

I'll sound bitter and butthurt for saying this, but there's this real tendency nowadays that Superman projects have to be aimed more at people that don't actually like the character (and likely never will) than anybody who might like or even just be neutral about him. You have to convince people that they're wrong and that Superman is totally cool you guys seriously.

It's just this weird drive to appease a contingent of people who don't really give a fuck, to the point of alienating people who might have been more receptive otherwise. All it does is divide people even further.
>>
>>78002089
It honestly disgusts me that there are people on this board that know so little about probably the most famous superhero ever made.
>>
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>>78012346
You're right. Early Superman comics weren't about how perfect Superman and his surrounding world were. They were about Superman scaring the shit out of evil and protecting the little guy from the corrupt. That was the fantasy.

People complaining about how the "mainstream" doesn't "get" Superman because they're making him gritty are speaking rubbish from a lack of knowledge about the character. The incarnation of Superman they long for really was a product of the 50s, sanitized like everything else in the media back then; and that's why he was so vanilla, and why this version no longer resonates in an era so different from it.
>>
>>78011264
>>78011487
For Tomorrow is probably the single most blatant thing I've ever seen in my entire life, far otdoes Man of Steel
>>
>>78012346
>literally the first image of Superman ever devised has him smashing a car into a boulder as terrified bystanders flee
>>
>>78002172
Kill yourself.
>>
>>78014542
Golden Age Superman was a social hero that beat up wife beaters and strike breakers. He was Tom Joad with muscles.

The "muh Superman" is the Silver Age Mort Weisenger era Superman. This is because writers like Morrison and Moore consider him the "true" Superman. Moor even had him be the King of the Superman in his Supreme book. They find this Superman interesting because as Morrison wrote in Super Gods this was the "Superman on the couch" psychological Superman. He had weird adventures, like psycho-dramas for children. He could do anything and be anything.

For Moore he represents the kind of "Promethean fire of imagination" that he would celebrate in Promethea. For Morrison he represents a modern solar deity. He represents the eternal dignity of man.

So the Silver Age Superman gets put over a lot because a lot of influential writers dig him.

The problem with Snyder-man is that he doesn't really represent the Golden or Silver age Superman. He doesn't have their agency. He doesn't have their will. And he doesn't have their colorful can-do adventures.

He's more like the identity crisis-era Superman or the For Tomorrow Superman. He's an unsure Superman, who reacts rather than adventures on his own volition.

Just how I see it.
>>
>>78014554
Is it just me or are the Supermen that get compared to Christ the most the ones that tend to be the least Christ like?

For Tomorrow Superman was a screw up that kept getting in fights with his justice league. Remember in the Silver Age when people on the same super team actually liked each other and had picnics in the park? Why do they all have to act like snipy teenagers to each other these days anyway?
>>
>>78002069
The sad thing is Clark's character in MoS isn't even bad. He was an alienated, lonely man trying to find his place in the world, simply wanting to help people and know more about who he was. He was a Superman who couldn't do everything, but he could do something. It's just that the execution is pure shit, and Pa Kent's portrayal was pure nonsense.

And he could have been more charismatic and charming too instead of being a brooding post all the time. Hoping BvS let's him do just that.

But yeah, as long as Superman is still under Zack the Hack I really doubt he'll reach the popularity that Captain America has enjoyed despite being viewed as the boring boyscout at first.
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