WHO'S SOUL DO I HAVE TO SACRIFICE TO GET THIS BASED MOTHER

>>77900037
Marvel is dominating the market. All is well. Just laugh and point at the DKeks about how puny their company's market share is to Marvel.

>>77900037
We must sacrifice the blood of virgings.
Marveldrones will suffice
I say, let's start with this one >>77900057

>>77900037
MCUcks desu

>>77900037
>people used to complain that shooter used to be a continuity freak
>Marvel books now cant even account for things that happen in the same event

>>77900214
they can't even account for things that happen in one issue.

>>77900266

They can't even account for correct spelling.

>>77901930
Nor even the schedule

>>77900037
He would have killed Fraction and Aja with his bare hands over all those Hawkeye delays.

>>77902169
And Bendis

>>77902238
And Hickman

>>77902273
Shooter vs Quesada
Who wins, and why it's Shooter?

>>77902238
Bendis never delayed because of him. If anything, he would have published 600 on May as planned no matter if Secret Wars was on it or not.

>>77900037
Fuck him forever for the way he treated Kirby. Ho is he wearing a badge for that shitty comic-publishing company he set up?! Forgotten the name of it, I remember seeing a preview of "OUR EXCITING, DYNAMIC NEW LINE OF BOOKS!!" in the early nineties or whatever it was and I was like, ".....yeah.....oooooookay."

>>77902169
>>77902238
>>77902273
>ITT Blame authors for artists delays

>>77902356
Eh, Fuck Kirby. Steranko, Ditko and Lee all the way

>>77902364
Fuck the hacks, who can't tell a coherent story, without decompressing it to 6 issues

>>77900037
Why does he look evil?

I know right. On their website they aren't even dating the releases correctly. Some of the dates aren't even fucking Wednesdays.
>thanks Disney

>>77902383
Fuck you who can't even tell a story.

>based
The man's a mixed bag. He runs a tight ship, but a lot of classic runs and talented writers suffered under his run. Plus, he had some terrible fucking ideas.

>>77902413
Yeah, Fuck them!
I feel better after I wrote that

>>77902398
He is pretty evil. Yeah, he was a great EIC, but was absolute Hell to work with. Zeck's weirdly timed breakdown and the whole story about him, Sal Buscema and mariage annual.

>>77902398
Because he is good inside.

>>77902383
>Fuck the hacks, who can't tell a coherent story, without decompressing it to 6 issues

I think cape fans are the problems a lot of the time, they want a fight in each issue. Whether it's important to the plot or not. I really wish most of the fights were just erased from Cape comics, the best stories have the least fights...usually

>>77902414
He is a shit writer. Everything he wrote was terrible.
>inb4 Secret Wars
Secret Wars is a mediocre toys tie-in. And you all know it.

>>77902466
That's what Shooter also believed.
He okayed a Shang Chi story without a single fight.

>>77902474
>Secret Wars is a mediocre toys tie-in. And you all know it.
Yeah but everyone fucking loved Secret Wars.

>>77902474

He was an excellent writer in his younger days with DC on Adventure/superman/superboy. He created tons of characters with solid stories.

Marvel hired him to right their ship and he did, he demanded accountability and strict story telling guidelines. During his time as EIC he should not have had to write books but you fill in when you have to.

>>77902535
I'm not saying that people hated Secret Wars. My point was - it's probably his best work in Marvel and even than it was not all that good.
It was better than his Avengers, that's for sure.

Didn't he tear apart early nu52 and Ultimate Spider-man for their continuity problems on his website?

>>77902356
Valiant.
>>77902364
Wasn't part of the delay by the editorial? I remember Aja saying that he had finished his part during the delay.

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>>77900057

THIS ANON SPEAKS THE TRUTH

NOW JOIN THE DARK SIDE

>>77902669
Lord Vader, you're ccchoking me...

>>77902383
There would be no Steranko without Kirby. Ditko is great , but "fuck Kirby"?! C'mon, now, whether you like his work or not, no one who is passionate and knowledgeable about the medium would write that {triggered}! It's like saying "fuck Windsor McKay"!!!
>>77902535
Yeah, I just ate that shit up as a kid, loved it. Old(ish) "fag" here.
>>77902664
Of course. How could I forget such great {choke} comics {cough}?!. Didn't he get Ditko "back" at the start of the company?

>>77902991
only an insecure person would be offended at "Fuck Kirby".

My favorite artist is Mignola. You can make fun of him, you can dis him all you want, and I will shrug it off.

I say "Fuck Kirby", because I am sick of that argument. You can be angry, you can call me a retard / autist / edgelord / shitlord, but it doesn't really matter.

>>77903058
I'm not gonna call you anything, Anon, I rarely do that unless I'm REALLY triggered. Again, no Hellboy without Kirby...I'm sure you've read Mignola's account of his creation, right?
Why would "only an insecure person" be offended at "Fuck Kirby"? Do you actually know how he was treated?
And I like Mignola, especially his early stuff (and the Mignolaverse stuff), his run on Cloak & Dagger was absolutely DOPE.
What have you got against Kirby, besides massively influencing two of your favourite artists (and, arguably, anyone else who has ever drawn capestuff)?! Not being facetious, I genuinely want to know, Anon.

>>77903058

Sorry, instead of saying "what have you got against Kirby" I should have said "which argument are you referring to."

>>77903058
No Mignoloa without Kirby, either. Look at the dedication in Seed of Destruction.

>>77902664
The pin is for Defiant. The very short-lived company he formed after getting ousted from Valient.

>>77902991
While I agree with you, I hereby call you out on your claimed oldfag status.
>fag in quotation marks
>{actions}
These are not the old ways.

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>>77903519
He did stuff for both, though vollsticks might have referred to Defiant.

>>77902588
Man, if you want some painful as shit comics, check out his Unity crossover from OG Valiant. Typical lost world-time travel-crisis kind of thing, but centered around a rape victim and her adult son whom she molested.
Beautiful BWS art, though.

>>77903537
Sorry meant "old" as in "aged" not Old"fag" as in I've been posting on this board for ages (since 2010, though. I just don't like the whole "fag" thing, yes, I know this is 4chan, but not everyone has to follow the herd.
You are the first Anon to bring this up.
>>77903590
Yup, I meant Defiant. Thanks Anon. I still have the mag somewhere with the promo interview w/Shooter, will try and find it. DID Shooter get Ditko to work for Defiant? I'm 90% sure the article I mentioned said he did...cheers, anyway, Anon.
>>77903353
I said thathere: >>77903222, especially re: Hellboy's creation!
But yeah, you're right, Anon.

>>77903222
>>77903265
Try to be as short as possible: Kirby is hailed for being the biggest influence ever in comics. There is not a single artist that is not influenced by him. People sympathize with Kirby, because he didn't get enough credit when he was alive, while Lee got too much credit. That's okay. What is tiresome, are Kirby fanboys like Evanier, and all these fags who bring Kirby up, thinking it's any kind of argument.

Kirby was hired, he got payed for his work, and a good amount of money. Lee wanted to land him a better job, but Kirby was butthurt and refused. What Shooter did is a bigger story, one that is easily googe-able, albeit it's a wall of text, and will take you few hours to read.

And a food for thought: have you ever thought that without Kirby, that comic books would be actually at better place? Imagine a world where superhero comics are not popular. Just imagine.

Hellboy is not the only thing Mignola did. I like Mignola more as an artist, rather than writer.

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>>77903744
>DID Shooter get Ditko to work for Defiant?
He did Dark Dominion #0.
Shooter managed to get him to work on two of his companies.

>>77902356
>Fuck him forever for the way he treated Kirby.

Jim never treated Kirby badly on purpose, he strived to do right ny ho but could only do so much within the limitations of what the corporation and lawyers allowed him to do.

>>77903819
>Imagine a world where superhero comics are not popular
Than the industry would be dead. You forget that Wertham and his 'wonderful' book almost killed it. Horror genre died. Romance was massively hit. Hell, capes barely survived.
It killed almost any oposition for DC, which already was taking over their competitors left and right. Industry was in fucking pits before MARVEL, Lee and co helped. Remember Golden Key's business plan?
I'm all for indies and more promotion for them and more love to them, but stop. I get what you are trying to say, but no, nothing would be better.
And, no. I'm not even that much fan of Kirby.

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>we have money
>that makes our products superior

Gee where have I heard this before?

>>77903978
How can you kill a medium? Theater still exists, despite the cinema. Books still exist despite the tv. Do you think that comic books can't exist without superheroes? There might have been a decade without comic books, but trust me, they would return with force.

>>77903890
I thank you, oh knowledgeable Anon! I was pretty sure, since in the article I referred to it was kind of made out like it was a really "big draw".
>>77903900
You know about the whole contract he was first offered re: the return of his art, yeah? That it basically STILL BELONGED to Marvel and would be given back when he died (so he couldn't sell it), eventually Kirby and Marvel's lawyers (with help from almost EVERY industry creator , big and small) worked out a deal...even then he only got something like 15% I believe is the figure quoted, of his pages back, when any other pro who'd drawn work for Marvel was getting back the large majority of their pages. But Shooter DID have a say in it--I have several old TCJ's covering the controversy--Groth called Shooter "our Nixon" at one point! And tho' the Sean Howe book goes into it pretty deeply, there's stuff omitted, I assume for brevity's sake.

>>77904142
Groth had a personal grudge against Shooter. Once Shooter was out, TCJ completely stopped talking about marvel comics. Groth is certainly not a trustworthy source, he was Bleeding Cool before BC

>>77904215
I would argue that that was due to the rise of alternative comics....but I've recent issues that discuss Big Two stuff so that's not entirely true. But, yes, Groth is well known for his outspoken-ness....if he held a grudge, it was due to the Kirby thing. I have a transcript of Groths Kirby/Shooter controversy SDCC speech...phew!, talk about going for the jugular!
Calling him Bleedig Cool before BC is kind of ridiculous, no dis intended, but long time TCJ reader here, I know what Groth was like (he seems to have mellowed somewhat) , Kim Thompson, bless him, was even MORE mercurial!

>>77904344
Than you probably know why it became personal for Groth. It was when Shooter sued Groth and TCJ over libelling the Fleisher (writer of the Spectre). I remember that even Sims at some point was laughing at TCJ's mentality. Few years later, TCJ turned against Sim due to his tangents he wrote in Cerebus.

>>77904142
A lot of the original art was simply lost because at one point it literally was sitting in the, iirc, break room in boxes with nobody looking after it and someone more than likely nicked some of it before Shooter himself went "wtf is this stuff doing HERE?!" And before it became a custom to return artwork and sell it, a ton of it just got thrown out because nobody cared, it was just trash once the comic was out so understandibly a veteran like Kirby would have less of his old art remaining than newer guys. And that's not taking account the deal where Shooter tried to be fair about who got what amount of pages when it was returned, instead of just letting the artist get everything while people such as the inkers, etc. got zilch.

>>77904510
You raise a very important point. People very often ignore the works of inkers, letterers and colorists, but especially inkers, who very often were the most important people in comic books, even if they were completely underrated.

Nowadays with computer coloring, inkers are shit.

>>77903819
Oh yeah, tons horrorshit, crimeshit and romance would all be much better.
>>77903978
Yay for Wertham, then.

>>77904568
and science-fiction books. it seems like no one ever appreciate the "Weird Science" type of books.

>>77904599
>no one ever appreciate the "Weird Science" type of books.
Because they're garbage like everything I've listed.

>>77904620
So you only love capeshit?

>>77904025
That's not what was being said at all, anon. The industry bearly died because of the comics code. It would have if not for superheroes holding things together untilthe code went away.

>>77904681
No, you fucking moron. I'm calling you an idiot for implying that no superheroes would improve the medium.

It would be the same damn bubblegum for brainless idiots, but more of a horror/soft "sci-fi" if you can call it that/romance/crimeshit.

>>77904715
And maybe the world would be a better place.
Also, when there is death, there is also a rebirth.

>>77904734
It would be still vastly superior to what we have currently.

>>77904770
>it would be the same garbage but with a different genre
>BUT THAT WOULD BE BETTER
Shut up already, you idiot.

>>77904794
You are the only idiot here. And a pleb.
Anyone who thinks that horror / crime is garbage is a complete retard

>>77904794
Go back to your Batman stories. Adults are talking.

>>77904821
Horror fucking died because of Wertham, you idiot. There was no fucking horror at all. The entire point of Wertham was that comics corrupt youth. Fucking Two-Face was cut out of the comics, because he was horror movie stereotype. Hell, Penguin went away for a couple of years.
Without superheroes and them trying to destroy Comic Code you will be on this board only for cartoons.

>>77904821
>>77904853

Maybe we could get back to the interesting stuff about editors and the drama in the bronze again instead of the same old capes/nocapes argument we have six times a day?

I'm interested in hearing more about Shooter's story, is there a place its all gathered together in?

>>77904821
>likes crimeshit/horror
>calls anyone else a pleb
I bet you think GoT is a literary masterpiece too.
After all, GoT is leagues above anything horror-related ever produced. Crimeshit is only ever good in live-action and even that is rarely (Sopranos, anyone?)
>>77904853
Go back to your mother, maybe she'll teach you how to argue

>>77904917
You're right. My mistake on feeding the retard.

Give me a time, and I'll search for some links for you.

>>77904917
His blog is super interesting. It helps to look at how any company functions.
Granted, it's kinda one-sided, but still very interesting.
The story about european trip is my favorite.

>>77904960
So you have no arguments and just shitting up the thread with stale memes. Good, now fuck off.

>>77904750
None of that has anything to do with Marvel or Shooter.

Here is a very interesting in-depth article about Shooter

http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2013/01/jim-shooter-a-second-opinion-part-one-the-best-job-he-can/

http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2013/10/jim-shooter-a-second-opinion-part-two-romper-room-on-crystal-meth-installment-1/

>>77904952
Here's the link:
http://www.jimshooter.com/
He wrote nothing after Valiant tried to suit him.

>>77904988
>>77905005
Thanks! I'll take a look at these.

>>77905042
Also an interesting read about Sal Buscema's experience with Shooter:
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/2011/08/shootervsbuscema.shtml

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>>77904909
You do realize that there were still published horror anthologies, even during marvel age? Like 20 years after Wertham's controversy?

>>77905269
Stop feeding the troll, retard.

>>77905371
Shhhh. Don't ruin it. Better take popcorn.

>>77905371
Why not?
It's not like this thread didn't turn to shit already.

Eh. The janitor killed the fun again.

>>77902590
New 52 maybe, but the Ultimate Spider-Man stuff was about how boring and bloated it was.

>>77902590
He hated Ultimate Spider-Man?
Man, I like him more with each day.
>inb4 butthurt nostalgiafags claiming it's the best Spider-Man comic ever

>>77904394
The Fleisher thing was 'cause of the Ellison interview, though...then ELLISON sued Fanta! I think 'cause of the interview being reprinted in the "We Told You So" book? I may be muddling my timelines here, Anon....My point was it's patently untrue that TCJ "stopped writing about Marvel" after the Kirby/Shooter thang.
>>77904510
I know, I can't remember where in New York it was but Marvel had a warehousefull of original art. Still, out of ALL the pages he produced Marvel were gave him back 15%?! Without a doubt more than that survived. Maybe not much, but more than 15%, surely?! I know the rats got to a lotta pages and wasn't there a flood, too?

>>77905875
yeah, the flood was why they had to relocate everything and that led to bunch of the art just being dumped at the Marvel offices where Shooter found it laying out in the open in the break room or whatever. By which time a lot of Kirby aficionados could have already run off with tons of material.

>>77906123
That's right, thank you, I read the Howe book more-or-less when it came out but all my old TCJ's are in the attic. It's mad seeing all these superheroes or "George Tuska interview!!!" on the older ones, then suddenly it's all Chris Ware, Fort Thunder, Jim Woodring cover features dominating! Having said that they STILL intrerview "the greats" of cape cartooning and celebrate obscure pioneers like Mort Meskin...in fact people who think Fanta books are all hipster shit would probably be surprised if they looked through their back catalogue, even some recent releases, like the Mort Meskin book....and lets not forget they publish Toth, Ditko et al....