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Is Family Guy's version of this alternate reality accurate?

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Is Family Guy's version of this alternate reality accurate?
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It's a strawman, so of course it's shit. all strawmen are shit
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>>77872777
I'm an atheist and in my opinion this is a bullshit.During the dark ages the monasteries were the only places where informations,discoveries and the philosophies from the past were conserved.
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>>77872777
Considering it was Christian monks who saved as much of the old roman literature they could get their hands on and thus ensured the collapse of the empire didn't result in all of its knowledge disappearing, no.
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>>77872777
probably
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Given that the scientific method and industrial capitalism didn't even exist until the 17th century, no, no it was not.
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edgelord bullshit

edgy teenage atheists who would rather die than admit that religion ever had any positive effect on humanity need to go
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>>77872777
> implying there isnt scientific represion nowadays
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>>77872777
Keep in mind that there is also a good chance that the Greek/Roman empire would still be in control.
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>>77872777
No I mean without Christianity we wouldn't have done the crusades and taken all the math from the Middle East.
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>>77872904
It's a myth, really.

There were a handful of monasteries that had a few decent libraries. But it did little to reestablish the renaissance, and in those few monastic libraries weren't even rediscovered until well into the Enlightenment.

Christians did indeed destroy much of classical knowledge, education, science, etc. during the dark ages and well after. Of course there were also plagues, famines, invasions, etc. that also deserve blame.

But the idea that the Dark Ages didn't happen and that the Christians were good guys is just modern propaganda and bullshit.
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>>77872777
The biggest science Christianity held back was medicine due to the desecration of dead bodies. That's why Leonardo Da Vinci nearly got executed for cutting up dead bodies right in the heart of the Vatican to understand how circulation worked. The only reason he didn't was because people would have to admit they actually let him get away with cutting up corpses right inside the Vatican. People back then were hugely superstitious regardless of faith though, they wouldn't take kindly to cutting up dead bodies for whatever reason. So no, not really. A few hundred years more advanced maybe? Or just fifty? Hard to say. But not a thousand. No way.
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>>77872904

If we're getting technical the "dark ages" were never a thing.
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>>77872777
During the so-called "Dark Ages", a term most historians don't really use anymore because a lot of stuff actually happened during that time, the ones who made the most scientific progress and discovery were Christian monks
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>Implying that the Chinese wouldn't have done the same thing if it threatened their dynasties
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>>77873041
Or even bothered with America.
If it wasn't for the religious persecution, there wouldn't have been that much of a reason for Europe to colonize it as quickly as it did.
Also, there is a chance that they still wouldn't have found the new world.
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Honestly, I believe that if the destruction of the Library of Alexandria ended up causing the Theocratical Dark Ages, we'd probably be more scientifically advanced than we are right now.

Not to mention how Aztec, Mayan, and Inca texts, which the surviving texts show impressive technological advancement for such as culture in such a period of time, were destroyed by the Spanish Invaders because of their stupid fucking Inquisition. So there's goes another opportunity as well.

I'm not saying this as a fedora-tipping euphoric, I'm saying this as someone who's disappointing and angry over the fact that me might have had such technological advancements such as space flight much earlier if Christanity didn't have such a chokehold on the world.
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>>77873132
>tfw you will never live in a time where a whole new continent is discovered
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>>77872777
No of course not.

The "Dark Ages" (not considered correct terminology now) was caused by the collapse of the Roman Empire, not the rise of Christianity.

You may agree with Gibbon and say that Christianity helped push the Empire to its collapse, but that's neither here nor there.

The "Dark Ages" were "dark" because organized society collapsed, not because people were Christian
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>>77873063
No-one is denying that the dark ages happened, but it happened because the Roman Empire fell, not because of Christianity. And no-one is saying that the middle ages weren't a relatively static period for the discovery of new knowledge, but that was because of the dominance of Aristotelian scholasticism among academics of the period, not Christianity. Not to mention that the constant creation of new scientific knowledge that builds on existing knowledge is not guaranteed without the scientific method which, as I mentioned earlier, was only invented in the 17th century.
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>>77873182

>Honestly, I believe that if the destruction of the Library of Alexandria, which ended up causing the Theocratical Dark Ages never happened, we'd probably be more scientifically advanced than we are right now.

Shit, worded that first line wrong.
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>threads like this, thinly disguised as /co/ related, are on this board

The mods and janitors are massive fucking faggots.
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>>77873193
>tfw you will never live in a world where the native americans discover and invade europe
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>>77872777
No. And I am passionately atheist.
Family guy can be fun but let's be honest, it appeals to the lowest common denominator.
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>>77873182
>Spanish Invaders because of their stupid fucking Inquisition

It would happened anyway. The colonization happened because they need more money not because they need more christians

Not, I'm not defending the church. "Bad" people would have existed anyway and would had used other organizations besides religion to become powerful
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>well Islam is currently turning into the common enemy of mankind and another Christian nut just shot up an abortion clinic but THOSE EDGY ATHEISTS WERE MEAN TO ME ON THE INTERNET
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>>77873318
Atheist regimes in China and Russia killed people in the millions.
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>implying the fall of one of the greatest empires in the western world didnt cause the dark ages.

The dark ages are called the dark ages because for the longest time we had no idea what happened since the fall of Rome, but every year we discover something new about them.

also christianity was one of the helped keep Europe unity despite the constant wars between the wars between the successors of rome.
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>>77873229
>No one is denying the Dark Ages happened

>there were no Dark Ages, guys!

>the Dark Ages had nothing to do with Christianity

Christianity banned schools and education. They banned math. They banned the number zero, for fuck's sake, because it was an "arabic" numeral.

Christians destroyed and suppressed much of the knowledge of the classical world, and it wouldn't be rediscovered until the Renaissance, mostly due to a rise in secularism.

It goes beyond preventing cadavers from being studied, and arresting Galileo for saying the Earth goes around the Sun.

Sure the scientific method was a great advancement, but you can have plenty of knowledge without it. People weren't living like troglodytes in caves and then bam, the 17th century happened.
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> high performance & endurance lightbulbs have already been developed but its not commercialized because Philps will lost money for that

nice scientific freedome you got there m8
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>>77873364

Tell me about how Stalin who trained to be a priest was an atheist again.
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>>77873182
>Honestly, I believe that if the destruction of the Library of Alexandria ended up causing the Theocratical Dark Ages, we'd probably be more scientifically advanced than we are right now.
Fuck off with your memes.

The Library of Alexandria was destroyed, yes, but we don't even know when.
Was it burned when in the first century BC or the 7th century AD? Or any time in between?

You can't blame something so vague.
The destruction of the Library of Alexandria is a legend.
That's the major impact of it, not the actual loss of the copies of extant books.

Besides, if you want to see a real impact, look at the sacking of Baghdad by the Mongols. The Tigris ran black with discarded books.

Baghdad never truly recovered and some place the sacking of Baghdad as the end of the Islamic Golden Age.

That's a real event that happened at a real time and had real consequences.

None of that meme history
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>>77873247
They are too busy deleting half closed eyes as porn.
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I knew there was a reason for all the non-Christian regions around the globe having flying cars nowadays.
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>>77873364
And a Catholic regime in German executed six million jews for "killing Jesus."
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>>77873229
Actually historians call the dark ages the "early middle ages" since it was more of a time of rebuilding not ignorance
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>>77873400
idk, maybe because he was thr fucking leader of the biggest communist country in history?
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>>77873218
Christianity didn't destroy the Roman Empire. Hell they made it stronger by adopting it as their new religion. I always thought it was the Dark Ages because of the lack of information about that time period due to plagues wiping out entire towns.
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>>77873428
>Germans
>Catholic
>Hitler
>A Christian of any kind
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>mfw people start shoving their political beleifs in their shows
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>>77872777
People in this thread need to step up their bait.

Anyone with a basic knowledge of history can see right through it.
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>>77873400
Because he stopped being one and tried to exterminate all religion in Russia?
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>>77873132
Religious persecution is only a small fraction of why people traveled west.

- Looking for Gold
- Looking for a route to India
- Looking for lumber cause Europe was running through its trees
- Tobacco
- Cheap land to buy
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Im sure we'd have make some slightly faster progress for sure. Remember all those scientific theories that were shot down because they went against established church literature?

Hell there are places where we're STILL fighting the evolution battle. Or trying to "teach the controversy"

We wouldnt suddenly magically be 1000 years more advanced, but we'd certainly be better off.
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>>77872777
>thinking just because science progressed faster the world is perfect
No, it just made it so we go smart phones sooner.
By extension, it also made it so that global warming started sooner and the world as a whole had less time to adapt to changing technology.
When new technology is given more time to settle in to a culture there are less problems than if it is all done at once.
If there was a huge scientific progress before the world as a whole could be mapped out, then things would be so much worse.
Even now, some nations have technology embargo on them because they are not ready to handle the latest advancements.
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>>77873475
actually Hitler didn't see christianity as a good force but would have replaced it with germanic neo paganism as his whole nationalistic gernmany
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>>77873390
You're having trouble with your time lines, mate.

The so called "Dark Ages" are long before there were schools.
It was a very poor time for everyone struggling after the collapse of the Empire.

There was no "Ban the books!" shit. You're thinking of like 1000 years later.

It was only in monasteries. Christian monasteries where literacy was preserved.

If you want to blame someone, blame Henry the VIIIth.

He dissolved the monasteries in England that had existed for a thousand years. Many of the books there were tossed out.

Dear old Henry didn't do that because he was Christian. He did it because he was a cunt who wanted his cake and to eat it too.
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>>77873400
He wasn't a Christian or an Atheist so much as he was a total psychopath with a God complex. And when you're an intelligent dirt poor Georgian peasant, odds are you end up training for a life in the clergy.
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>>77873400
He wrote about leaving the priest hood and went full commie.
One of the primary tenants of communism is the destruction of religion, and devotion to the state.
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>>77872777
so they're saying that global civilization was so behind christian europe that in a 1000 year dark ages no other civilization caught up?
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>>77873475
Hitler belonged to a sect of Christianity called "Positive Christianity" which put a lot of emphasis on the fact that Jews killed Jesus. Then he eventually got fed up with Catholicism and made up his own religion with blackjack and hookers...
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>>77873400
Communism says that all power should go to the state but be for the people. So it can be real easy for someone to seize power in a communist soceity like what stalin did.
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>>77873510
Welcome to any satire written by liberals. That's why a like King of the Hill. It showed both sides of the political aisle have both good and bad parts to them. Hank will sometimes change his viewpoints if avour of better ones or he can bring in some level headedness to a bunch of morons.
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>>77872777
It's not.
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>>77873538
>Remember all those scientific theories that were shot down because they went against established church literature?
Remember how that happened hundreds of years after the "Dark Ages"?
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So the most dangerous things are atheists who were raised Christian?
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>>77873428
The point is, Atheist and Christians are no different in how they do things.
Both are just as easy to corrupt and it is laughable to think other wise.
There are just as many Atheist who are as extreme about there views as Christians (in terms of percentage) and the hypocrisy on both sides is just sad.
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remember how monks saved books
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>>77873182
You're dumb.

Scientific progress is a function of economy. The Dark Ages were caused by the socio-economic collapse of the West. Turns out you need an advanced economy to support high culture and learning! Who would've guessed?

Obviously the loss of accumulated knowledge will halt scientific progress. But the reason that accumulated knowledge is lost is because of socio-economic shifts. Scientific progress didn't halt because books were burnt by meanie bully Church. Do you know what the Byzantine Empire was? It was the other half of Rome that retained all that classical scholarship and progress and lasted through the Dark Ages. But they didn't invent jetpacks because they didnt have the socio-economic structure for that. Turns out, again, you need a very complicated and advanced economy to support our modern technological advancements, and thanks to that some jerk-off can talk about how Spanish Inquisition stopped the Industrial Revolution in the Renaissance.

Moron.
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>>77873182
>Aztec, Mayan, and Incans
>texts
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>>77873318
>>77873423
In middle ages Islam was a multicultural society with religion freedom and was advancing scientifically and technologically while preserving the knowledge from the Greeks and Romans that latter will be rediscovered by the Christian when they get access to those archives. Muslim knowledge from mathematical equations to embryology were fundamental for modern science.

Them after being attacked and beaten for centuries they turned to radical fundamentalism and we got the shit you are seeing today.
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>>77873475
Hitler was a practicing Catholic his entire life, anon. So were the vast majority of Germans at the time. When he first came to power, one of the first things he did was seize and shut down the Church where Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door.

The idea being that, as he was Catholic, he hated Protestants, and that's where the whole Protestant Reformation got started.

He found he got traction by riling up both Catholics and Protestants against Jews. Who most Germans were still agree at for having "killed Jesus." Viz a viz all the Passion Plays that Hitler promoted and attended.

But you're probably not going to hear about that on whatever source you're hearing that the Dark Ages never happened.
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>>77873400
>“The Party cannot be neutral towards religion, and it conducts anti-religious propaganda against all religious prejudices because it stands for science, whereas religious prejudices run counter to science, because all religion is the antithesis of science. Cases such as occur in America, where Darwinists were prosecuted recently, cannot occur here because the Party pursues a policy of defending science in every way.”
>- Josef Stalin, J.V. Stalin Complete Works Volume 10, p. 138
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>>77873457
It was called the dark ages because it was the period after "civilization fell" or when the "light of Europe went dark". Historians don't like the term anymore today because A: in the middle of the "dark ages" was the Carolingian restoration, that period of time when Charlemange and his descendants ruled most of western Europe and actually repaired alot of the old roman infrastructure that was still being used as well as building new structures like churches and a establishing a bureaucratic system to run Europe. And B: at the same time Europe was in the shitter the middle east, India, east Asia (China was fragmented like Europe but this was when you see the birth of the other east Asian nations like Japan and Korea), and North to central Africa were actually doing pretty well for themselves. European civ may have been needing to be put back together but other places were thriving.
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>>77873656
Not dangerous, but who have the most warped sense of perspective.

Like for fucks sake, if Christianity really was the bane of knowledge and progress then why the fuck were the Europeans the ones who ended up conquering most of world, when there were plenty of countries that should be more advanced because of a total lack of in depth contact
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>>77873770
What the fuck is it with people from the Asian steppes?
First the Huns cause all kinds of shit for Rome.
Then the Mongols fuck up everything again.
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>>77873650
The original image says christianity is gone entirely pre, during and post dark ages. So the point still stands doofus.
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>>77873182
If aztecs, mayans, and inca were so smart how come it was so easy for them to get invaded? Home cone they never dreamt of a sail to cross the sea?
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>>77873538
Give me one scientific theory that was suppressed explicitly because it went against church doctrine. Heliocentrism doesn't count, Tycho Brahe's Geocentric theory was a better explanation of the data they had at the time of Galileo's trial than Copernican Heliocentrism and he wasn't even arrested for advocating that, but for suggesting that the bible be edited to reflect the current state of the art in the natural sciences. And evolution doesn't count either, because it wasn't suppressed by large entities like the Vatican of the Church of England but by small denominations with a lot of power in a few pocket areas leaning on local authorities, which doesn't exactly scream wholesale oppression by Christianity as a whole to me.
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>>77873792

Except when the Communist party created their own version of evoluton because natural selection was against communist principles.
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>>77873218
and they were only called the "Dark" Ages in retrospect by nouveau-riche Renaissance upper class who thought they were literally the best and smartest people that ever lived.
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>>77872904
Only information and philosophy that supported the Church though. And it's not just that past information was lost, but that during that period of time research and development was discouraged, sometimes violently, by the Church.
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>>77873840
No it doesn't.

Christianity was the only part of the Roman bureaucracy that survived the fall of the WRE.

I'm saying that without Christianity, Western Europe would have been a far worse place after the collapse of the WRE, and we'd be even "further behind"
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>>77873794
Historians don't like it because there was a lot of interesting stuff going on, and it's worth studying, and people tend to dismiss it because they're more interested in other areas, perhaps in part due to the name. Historians want people to be interested in history, not dismiss it.

But yes, any historian will agree that it was a simple historical fact that knowledge and learning suffered immensely during the period.
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>>77872777
>Replace Christianity with Islam
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>>77873835
It's a frustrating place to live man. If you had to walk uphill everywhere you go I bet you'd be itching to tear across the country on horseback too.
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>>77873845
It was easy for them to get invaded because Europeans lived in squalor back then and brought over terrible plagues. Don't know why they never tried to sail though.
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>>77872777
Didn't you make this thread over at /tv/?
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>>77873835
Because its fun, they never wanted ti rule anything, never settled anywhere but just decided to just tame what they want. Funny how Buddhism made them peaceful
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>>77873537
>Looking for Gold
Yeah, but for the most part they just took the gold and went back to Europe.
>Looking for a route to India
Ok, that is how it was found, but they had little to no reason to go live there.
>Looking for lumber cause Europe was running through its trees
That is a new one, but I can believe it. I'll be sure to look it up some time.
>Tobacco
Yet again, not a big enough reason to live there or to colonize it. At the most I could see a hand full of farms.
>Cheap land to buy
Why do you think it was cheep? Very few people wanted to go live there since nothing was set up yet.


Oh and it was the Pope who stopped all of Europe from having an all out war since they all wanted America. If it wasn't for the Pope sitting down and drawing the borders himself, there would have been a war that could last for decades.
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It's inaccurate because it's actually documented that Christianity and Christian officials pursued the sciences. That's how they discovered the Stars and the greater Universe and shat themselves because it was heretical to think something could exist beyond Earth. They eventually settled down on the subject, though. Even Muslims were into the Sciences.

It's not surprising that Family Guy gets it's uneducated opinions off of random Internet message boards, though. The people who spout the myth that Religion/Christianity, however stupid it may be on a conceptual level, outright abhorred knowledge and science, are uneducated and jumping on an easy slander target. They are people who know nothing.
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>>77873975
Only North American Indians were that subject to plague. South and Central were kek'd by Spaniards
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>>77873816
Good question.

Back in those Dark Ages, Europe decided to go on Crusades in the Middle East. Those who went there were a bit surprised to find the people a lot more civilized than they were. They had silks, spices, money, knowledge, all sorts of things that they wanted.

When they went back to their mud pits they missed all the good stuff the Arabs had. So they started, for example, building ships to go get spice and silk for themselves. This led to a new merchant "middle" class that suddenly had more money than anybody else in the mud pits. And it had fuck all to do with the church. They started building big ass mansions and statues to themselves, and filled the mansions with the best paintings money could buy. This led to the Renaissance, which again had little to do with the Church, except for sometimes themes in the paintings and statues. This led to the Enlightment (note name, opposite of dark). Where there was a lot of independent thought. People could explain, for example, why the planets go around the sun without having to say "God did it." This led to a lot of advancements. They built better ships, travel further, faster, and trade for/steal better shit and make more money.

Guns, germs, and steel took care of most of the rest. Note how much progress was made by getting further and further away from the church.
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>>77873905
No it wasn't, medieval Europe wasn't some police state where the Church controlled every aspect of society,there were universities and academics and places of learning independent of the church, as well as monks, priests, and clerics who were themselves heavily involved in natural philosophy.
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>>77873422
I hate that stupid sexualized dog so much.
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>>77874015
>they never wanted ti rule anything
Yeah they did.
The Mongol Empire was very organized.
It just splintered fast into feuding khanates
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Without Christianity's influence on Europe, almost nothing from before the Roman Empire's fall would have survived the sacks of the Goths and Huns. The philosophies and knowledge of ancient Greece would have been all but destroyed. There would have been no unified force to prevent the Islamic hordes from conquering Europe piece by piece.

But somehow we'd be a space age society free from hate
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>>77873770
>Islam
They would be gone too.
Islam is just a splinter of Christianity.
The Prophet Mohamed was a Christan (even if he retconned a few things) just like Jesus was a Jew.
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>>77873871
Geometry is a math, not a science, but does that count?

The Church shut down Neoplatonic academies that taught geometry and other maths. On the grounds that "Pythagoras" and those other ancient Greeks were dirty, unchristian pagans.
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>>77873928
We would be even worse. Where do you think they got those greek and roman stuff in the renascence?


>Arab logicians had inherited Greek ideas after their invasion of southern portions of the Byzantine Empire. Their translations and commentaries on these ideas worked their way through the Arab West into Spain and Sicily, which became important centers for this transmission of ideas. This work of translation from Islamic culture, though largely unplanned and disorganized, constituted one of the greatest transmissions of ideas in history.

>Western Arab translations of Greek works (found in Iberia and Sicily) originates in the Greek sources preserved by the Byzantines. These transmissions to the Arab West took place in two main stages.
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>>77874103
>Guns, germs, and steel
An incorrect meme book

Diamond is a hack
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>>77874133
Fuck Henry the 8th
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>>77873835
They knew what's best in life.
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>>77874112
Dude, that is a screenshot from a child cartoon in a scene where there was no sexual content at all. You have to get in terms with your fetishes instead of blaming the world for making you feel funny.
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>>77872777
only good thing about this episode was Hot Meg and the Pie song
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>>77874205
Welcome to /co/.
>>
This is probably one of the most interesting discussions on /co/ for a while.
If I had the time and cared about it, I would cap all this, edit it together, fact check stuff to point out what is factually right/wrong and post in in the next best of /co/ thread.
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>>77873182
>Not to mention how Aztec, Mayan, and Inca texts, which the surviving texts show impressive technological advancement for such as culture in such a period of time, were destroyed by the Spanish Invaders because of their stupid fucking Inquisition.

Please. They couldn't even invent the wheel, they were a technological dead-end.
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>>77874137
On that point you are right. So without Christianism wouldn't they still be adoring roman gods but in a fragmented state? Polytheistic middle ages sounds like half of the RPGs out there.
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>>77874147
>On the grounds that "Pythagoras" and those other ancient Greeks were dirty, unchristian pagans.

Well that's news to me, seeing as how the overwhelmingly dominant philosophy of knowledge in medieval Europe, one that was explicitly endorsed by the Church of Rome, was that of Aristotle, one of those dirty pagan Greeks. But what do I know, I only majored in the history and philosophy of science.
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>>77874254
We often have stealth history threads on /co/.

Next to /tg/, /co/ is the best place for this type of thing
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>>77874238
4chan and /co/ was not a moralist place. It was the opposite. The moralist wave is relatively recent.
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>>77873088
This is a myth propagated by dodgy 19th century historiography. Anatomical dissection wasn't especially common, but it was practiced and it wasn't forbidden.
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>>77873088
>Despite various publications of results where hand washing reduced mortality to below 1%, Semmelweis's observations conflicted with the established scientific and medical opinions of the time and his ideas were rejected by the medical community. Some doctors were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands and Semmelweis could offer no acceptable scientific explanation for his findings. Semmelweis's practice earned widespread acceptance only years after his death, when Louis Pasteur confirmed the germ theory and Joseph Lister, acting on the French microbiologist's research, practiced and operated, using hygienic methods, with great success. In 1865, Semmelweis was committed to an asylum, where he died at age 47 of pyaemia, after being beaten by the guards, only 14 days after he was committed.

>Despite various publications of results where hand washing reduced mortality to below 1%, Semmelweis's observations conflicted with the established scientific and medical opinions of the time and his ideas were rejected by the medical community.

I think people are just assholes regardless of what they believe in.
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>>77873845
The Mayans had long been reduced to bunch of rundown villages by the 1500s. The Aztecs were murderous assholes to everyone around them, so the Spaniards had plenty of allies from the start. And the Incans were just recovering from a civil war. Also, smallpox.

And even then, they were just conquered, as opposed to Native North Americans who were exterminated.
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>>77873093
They absolutely were though. In fact there have been multiple 'dark ages'

You have the Greek Dark Ages/Bronze Age collapse.
The northern European Dark Ages triggered by the collapse of the western Roman Empire.

The fall of civilizations tend to be a messy business.

Ive got a feeling another one is right around the corner!
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>>77874255
Oh, they had the wheel and even mechanisms but the wheel is not very good when you live in hills.
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>>77874364
To be fair, he couldn't provide a causal explanation for why hand washing reduced mortality, and proving a correlation is only half of proving a theory.
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>>77874433
The burger dark ages?
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>>77874270
Greco-Roman polytheism was very different from Christianity and not just in the number of gods.

Christianity was very organized and hierarchical.
This was the result of being a persecuted religion for hundreds of years. It was like a resistance movement more than a religion.

The polytheists are different. Each church to each god was independent.
Within the church itself, it was a lot looser.

Yeah, there were flamines and pontifeces and other roles of priesthood, but nothing as rigidly organized as the Christians.

It was that organization why the Roman church survived the fall of the Empire itself.
It was like a second government within the Roman government.

So if Christianity never took off or became part of the Roman government, the Middle Ages would be in a worse place.

Also, as a side note, it's hilarious how many moments where Christianity could have been stopped but was not due to "divine intervention"
>>
>>77872904
/thread
>>
>>77874476
The Meme Ages
>>
>>77873774
>vast majority
Try about 40%.
During the Kaiserreich it was consistently around 50% but an uptake in atheism and the loss of West Prussia and Posen took a heavier toll on the number of Catholic "Germans". Even with the gaining of Sudetenland and Austria, it only went back up to about 50%.
>>
>>77874455
Still one might think it worth exploring if every clinic he worked in (he worked in several) where he got people to wash their hands, there was a drastic decrease in deaths and infections.

It isnt that uncommon for people in various sciences to push back on newer ideas, especially if their job depends on them being right.
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>>77872777
only if your 14
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>>77872777
>Is Family Guy's version of this alternate reality accurate?

>alternate reality

>accurate


That's not a fucking valid question, moron.
>>
>>77874433
The real scary thing is that if everything falls down, we're not getting back up again.

We got here from exploiting easy to access resources.
There was once coal just below the surface in places like England.
But we used that all up a long time ago.
We need to dig deep for the same resources that were easily accessible on the surface.

So if we forget how to make drills and make oil pumps, we won't ever be able to develop this far again because there won't be a ramp up.
>>
>>77874573
Continental Europeans were never the cleanest ones. The Sumerians invented soap, and the Chinese learned to boil water and make tea. Even the Vikings, with all their plundering and sailing and ravaging, had better hygiene, for crying out loud.
>>
>>77874147
Wow, nice try to talk history while completely not understanding it. The chruch's two most celebretated theologians are St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, both of who heavily blended Platonism and Aristotelianism into church doctrine. Meanwhile, let's shit talk Medieval medicine for being "backwards and stagnant" because they based it off the work of the Ancient Greeks
>>
>>77874501
I don't think you can affirm that without christianity it would be worse. This just means that it would give rise to multiple religions. But Roman empire already were assimilating multiple religions as it grew so all it would take is one of the fragments to restart assimilating the neighbors.

Also "divine intervention" can range from coincidence to myth. Or you could say that God (or gods) protects Shintoism because storms wrecked China's navy every time they tried to invade Japan.
>>
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Atheists that don't know shit about history and blame religion for everything.

What should we called those people?
>>
>>77874686
>. This just means that it would give rise to multiple religion
The point I'm making is that its the surviving Christian bureaucracy that's important.

The other religions didn't have that. That was a Christian thing.

Without the bureaucracy, there would be so much less communication between the splintered kingdoms after the fall of the WRE.
>>
>>77874749
euphorians
>>
>>77874749
Reddit
>>
>>77872777

Speaking as a fairly assertive atheist: no.
>>
>>77874629
Good. Industrial revolution and not dying of polio at childhood was a mistake.
>>
>>77873014

If you get rid of all people who have one or more bullshit opinions...
>>
>>77874629
I think you're conflating resource consumption with societal sophistication. Make no mistake, the way civilization today is globally integrated, especially the economy , when we fall, it's gonna be hard. Probably harder than ever before.

I'm not to worried about the putting things back together though. If humans have proven anything in our short period of dominance over the planet it's that we're inventive and clever.

Also, spectacularly stupid.
>>
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Quick question, Did someone make a story about "What if hitler didn't existed".
>>
>>77872777
Christianity didn't create the dark ages though, those sprung up after the fall of the Roman Empire. Nor were they entirely a period of technological stagnation. I say this as an Atheist who usually avoids this expression: Seth is just kind of tipping his fedora here.
>>
>>77874686
>I don't think you can affirm that without christianity it would be worse

You really can though. The Catholic church was the only surviving bureaucratic institution of the Roman Empire in Western Europe. Thus it was the only source of continuity and legitimacy in the West (outside of Venice and its connection to Constantinople), which was an extremely important thing when it came to the growth of kingdoms and respect between them. If only polytheism survived, the west would have lost a major source of cultural unity and common communication.
>>
>>77874674
Now that's just not fair, there were actually public bath-houses in every large village and town throughout Europe during the early and high middle ages and people of all social classes tended to bathe regularly (just some more frequently than others. It was the Black Death and the resulting reluctance to bathe around other people that led to the decline of the public bath-houses, which in turn led to the decline of bathing generally since most people didn't have indoor plumbing or the ability to waste a large amount of water on baths.
>>
>>77874782
I like it!
>>
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>>77874869
I'm saying that since resource consumption is a prerequisite for sophistication.

In order to have things like space travel and electronics, you need access to certain resources.
You can't make a spaceship out of wood.

Right now, we can get the resources we want because we have over 200 years of complex industry.

But if we lost everything, it's going to be very hard to get to the point where we can have the resources of things like computers and satellites.

This is because as we were learning to industry, we used up all the easy stuff learning how to get to the hard stuff.

Now only the hard stuff is left and if we have to start all over, it'll be without the easy stuff, and it may just be impossible to get to the hard stuff without the leg up of the easy stuff
>>
>>77874749
>>77874801
I've seen some people call them raytheists or ratheists because of r/atheism.
>>
>>77875009
I wonder if we could have a happier life if we could keep modern technologies and knowledges scaled down to what we can sustain on our own without relying on large establishments.
>>
>>77875009
And I'm saying its not.

Again, you're conflating technology with societal sophistication. They're not unrelated, but they are separate, and distinct pillars of civilization.

It's really more about social organization than it is technology.
>>
>>77873268
‘They’re snobbish about their history down there. Leiv Eiriksson …’ she began to outline Earth’s history … ‘discovered Vinland, more than three hundred years after the Battle of Haelcor had ended the third and last Remem Empire.’

The big migration followed automatically. The Turks were again pushing west and north. Leiv’s father, Eirik, was a shrewd salesman. His Greenland had turned out nowhere like as green as it had been in his imagination, but from Vinland Leiv had thoughtfully brought rich berries and wild grains. The Northmen went west again.

They leap-frogged colony after colony down the eastern seaboard, up into the base rugged lands around Tyker’s Sea and down the Long Fjord into the Middle Seas. It was the landscape of their dreams. They called it Valhalla.

There were natives. But the newcomers were only half-hearted farmers – underneath the agricultural veneer they thought bloody. Those tribes they couldn’t out-fight they out-thought. When they met the Objibwa Confederacy they made treaties. And they spread, and merged.

By all the theories it should have ended there. Neither the natives nor the invaders had the textbook kind of social dynamic that builds Remes. The Northmen should have become just another tribe, with blue eyes and fair hair.

The theories were wrong. Something latent in both races was sparked into fire. It was a big continent, and it was rich.

In short, three hundred years after Leiv, a fleet arrived at the mouth of the Mediterranean. Most of the vessels were under sail although there were one or two, small, fast and inclined to blow up, that could move into the wind. The sails of the big ships bore the Great Eagle of Valhalla on a striped background alternating the colours of the sky, the snow and blood.
The Battle of Gibraltar was short. Europe had been through two hundred years of stagnation.
There was no answer to cannon.
>>
>>77874372
>And even then, they were just conquered, as opposed to Native North Americans who were exterminated.

Not really. It was the same shit. French and Indian War was the eastern conglomerations of tribes fighting against encroachment and losing. That left the big southern tribes like the Cherokee and Chocktaw who got shipped out when the US was consolidating its territory in the wake of the War of 1812. That continued in the background until the Annexation of Texas a couple of decades later. By that time you just had the plains and desert indians as powerful native forces left. But the southern plains and chihuahuan desert indians were some of the worst and the biggest holdouts.

The Commanche were like the Aztecs crossed with the Huns. They were so large and hated, they had to gather a group of more than a dozen tribes and militia Cortes style to just temporarily beat them out of hill country. And then, after the Civil War, the US shipped their Buffalo soldiers out there to finish the job in the Red River Wars. It's still a reason why many Texans north of the capital hate the Confederacy. The state sent all the men to go fight off in bumfuck Virginia and similar places while the locals were literally getting scalped.

Then there's the Apache wars and the end of native resistance.

If you want to argue one thing, it's that the US policy didn't really recognize any indian tribe as a 'nation' until the 1920's. Sure there were some of the earliest treaties and things, but by the time you hit the Jacksonian era, all that was thrown out the window.

But you know the old saying about indians in america. If you were a large peaceful tribe, you probably came out okay. If you were a large warlike tribe, you came out good if you could hold out long enough without being wiped out. If you were a small peaceful tribe, you were at the winds of fate. And if you were a small warlike tribe, you were dead.
>>
>>77875194
I don't know how you're missing my point.

Yes, you can have sophisticated society in ways other than technological advancement.

But you can't argue that other facets of sophistication that aren't technological can stand up to the importance of technology.

A society with computers and spaceships is more advanced than one that doesn't.
You agree with that?

Then you must see that we cannot get to this level of advancement without the foundations carved in the easy accessible resources of the past.

Erase that foundation and another cannot be built.

Poetry, religion, and music is all nice, but compared to technology, it's lesser.

Especially if you consider interplanetary colonization
>>
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So are you people atheists, or is it too uncool and "reddit" to admit that you are.
>>
>>77875507
I'm an atheist, but there's no point to pretend Christianity was not useful once.
>>
>>77872777
I'm not religious, but this is some bullshit. If religion didn't exist, we'd war over some other ideal or concept. South Park was more accurate.
>>
>>77875507
To use a /co/ related comparison, it's like when you like a piece of media but the fanbase makes you embarrassed, so you don't want to call yourself a fan so you don't get lumped in with them.
>>
>>77875578
Shakers at least believed in gender equality. That's all I can think of.
>>
>>77874629
false. the USA alone sits upon coal reserves that could last it for centuries
>>
>>77875752
But those are deep in mines.
If the mines collapse, how do we dig them out?
>>
>>77875791
no they arent. most are literally on the surface. even then, digging deep mines isnt hard, they were doing it long before the invention of powered pumps, knowledge of geology, etc.
>>
>>77875831
American once again is the savour of the world
>>
>>77875507
I'm an Atheist. I even own a fedora that was given to me as a gift, I think it's in my house somewhere. Doesn't mean I have to ignore facts in order to paint The church as a bunch of scientist-burners.

Seth McFarlane, I've noticed, often goes very very shallow with his satire, simply playing on things the audience already believes, or ideas or points of mockery that are already floating around in the public consciousness. Take the Walt Disney cut-away gag for instance. It plays on two common assumptions: That he was an Anti-Semite, and that he or his head was cryogenically frozen. The first claim has some accounts to back it up, although he had Jewish colleagues and employees, some of them quite high ranking. The second is flat out a myth, his ashes are interred at Forest Lawn Cemetery. But that's kind of the way Seth's attempts social satire are: a mix of half-truths, myths, and popular memes.
>>
If Christianity never existed, Europe would still be superstitious, except now there wouldn't be a single uniting religion. Also, during those 1000 years, Chinese and Islamic civilizations were rocking it in terms of advancement in most fields.
>>
>>77875831
This man is right. America is to coal what the Middle East is to oil. Last calculation was something like 500+years of reserves.
>>
>>77875266
no anon, native americans were all noble savages who lived in complete harmony until the whites came and infected them with smallpox that made them crazy and warlike.

this is /co/, the polar opposite of /pol/, to all its faults. pull out those stops.
>>
>>77875955
>Rome falls
>western civilization recovers in relative short order
>Baghdad falls to Mongols
>Islam never EVER recovers and remains backward and anti-scientific to this day

Most of that Islamic knowledge that jew revisionists rave over is just shit they stole off of the Byzantines.
>>
>>77876090
>>western civilization recovers in relative short order
It took about a 1000 years for this.

We still have 200 years until the Muslims are behind schedule.

They'll conquer Europe, establish a new caliphate and a second golden age will begin. Christians had their time, now the cycle continues
>>
>>77873928
>No Coffee, algebra, or neat architecture

Nah man can't do it
>>
>>77876334
>neat architecture
STOLEN FROM GLORIOUS BYZANTINES
REMOVE KEBAB
RETURN CONSTANTINOPOLI
>>
>>77874016
They went to look for gold and settled on the Caribbean despite not finding it there. In Central and South America they did find it and conquered, intermarried and settled.

Searching for a route to India they kept exploring and exploring needs supply bases. Those take settlements to support.

Harvesting lumber, tobacco, and other crops take a large amount of people.

And yes, land was cheap. When you have people settling anyways because they run out of beer or water they got their land and settlements. Land is available and in Europe land ownership was at a premium.
>>
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>>77872777
maby baby, we dont know what brilliant minde who died in a sword fight.
>>
>>77876090
It wasn't just Bagdhad that was destroyed, it was the entirety of their infrastructure. For example, the Mongols saw to the destruction of almost all the acqueducts that had built up since pre-antiquity
>>
>>77876440
What about all the Zoroastrian shit
>>
>>77874281

>best place for history discussion
>not /pol/

/co/umblr everybody.
>>
>>77872904
>During the dark ages the monasteries were the only places where informations,discoveries and the philosophies from the past were conserved.

Nope; it was the Arabs, Anon; Arabs saved the knowledge and made discoveries. Christian monasteries just made some pretty illuminated manuscripts.
>>
>>77875864
>he savour of the world

Is America really all that tasty?
>>
>>77877033
Well it was the monasteries which preserved literacy in England.
Without that, English wouldn't have developed as it has, and England would not have become the most important country in the world.

Christianity helped England
England created the West as a powerhouse.
QED
Arabs a sheepfucker
>>
>>77877675
anon
catholic is not christian
catholics were against literacy, christians were for it. not that hard.
>>
Without Christianity there would be no Islam and those Arab libraries with all their math and other knowledge wouldn't exit.

And I guess we'd all be Hindu or Buddhist, Pagan, or Jewish.
>>
>>77877080
It's a place where you can find restaurants, dishes and spices from literally every single culture that exists on planet earth, including the tribal ones, if you look hard and long enough.
Of course they are fucking delicious.
>>
>>77878182
Hey Henry VIII, don't you have some wives to execute?
>>
>>77878249
>there would be no Islam and those Arab libraries with all their math and other knowledge wouldn't exit.

We certainly don't know that.
>>
>>77878249
I can see Buddhism spreading if ti's brought by nomadic invasions, trade routes or what have you. Judaism seems far-fetched, given how unfriendly it is to conversions and its dependence on being passed by bloodlines. Or maybe a faith that fell into obscurity, like Zoroastrianism, might have gained a second wind.
>>
>>77878375
Islamic faith in the middle ages prided itself on education. Madrasas, libraries, colleges, even some early medical schools.
>>
>>77876489
All valid points, but to deny that the main force that drove people to actually colonize and from a network of community was fleeing religious persecution is just ignorant.
The truth is that the new world would have been colonized ether way, but it would have taken an extra hundred or so years.
>>
>>77878483
The Pilgrims fleeing persecution made up a fraction of the people immigrating to North America to colonize it. They mostly settled in Northern colonies and didn't actually DO much besides subsistence farming or have much influence over the region as a whole.

Also they were an ultraorthodox sect of Christianity that persecuted dissenters of their own settlements so it's no surprise that when you do things like ban dancing and music that you're not going to attract many followers.
>>
>>77878375
That's like saying we would still have peanut butter if we never set the slaves free.
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