If I was running Marvel, I would kill the Punisher. I don't

What's wrong with having a character who you don't morally side with? He's an interesting figure who makes for compelling stories. You're not necessarily supposed to believe in his cause.

>>77780066
Well your university is shit, at my university I am physics.

The Punisher has never done anything wrong. Of all heroes were like him, there wouldn't be any crime.

>>77779876
Why don't you kill yourself instead?

>>77779876
My position on Frank really fluctuates depending on the run. Some writers portray him as an unlikable asshole completely lacking any kind of human empathy, while others portray him as a surprisingly sympathetic character who genuinely wants to benefit society with what he does, and who also goes out of his way to protect innocent people. The latter is the kind of Punisher that I prefer.

>>77779876
Read that as "If I was ruining Marvel, I would kill the Punisher."

>>77779876
punisher doesn't shoot innocents because he uses super math

>unable to into antiheroes

confirmed for shit taste

>>77779876
>And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent
He hasn't. That's why there's only a halfhearted attempt to bring him to justice. The Punisher is a lot of things, but rarely is he sloppy

>>77779876
Hi Whedon

>>77780674
> the Punisher is a coward because he kills people

How does that logic work for Whedon when characters in his own shows kill people?

>>77780737
Whedon said that you dumbass.

>>77780737
>>77780758
Yeah I know, that's why I called Whedon out for having characters in his own shows that kill people, but according to him The Punisher is a coward for doing so.

dumbass

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>>77779876

>>77779876
Go to sleep Joss

>>77780581
Has anybody ever tried to explore exactly what he'd do if he thought he did? Off the top of my head, I'm figuring if someone like Mysterio tricks him into thinking he did?
And what does he count as an "innocent"? If a crime Lord's son tries to protect his dad without knowing about his activities, and just knows there's an armed madman chasing his dad with enough lead to pop a tank?

>>77781066
I think that comes up in the Aaron MAX run, I've forgotten everything that wasn't Bullseye

>>77779876
If I were in charge of Marvel, I would make emotional decisions instead of fiscally responsable ones.

>>77779876
I agree, Joss Whedon is stupid and overrated

>>77781066
One time mexicans faked him killing a little girl.

He was going to commit suicide, but then realized it couldn't have been him due to detective skills, and continued doing what he does best.

You'd be killing the only solid character than never gets twisted around by shitcunt writers for SJW purposes or to fit the movies.

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>>77781066
>If a crime Lord's son tries to protect his dad without knowing about his activities, and just knows there's an armed madman chasing his dad with enough lead to pop a tank?
You didn't watch the original Dolph Lundgren Punisher.

>>77780919
i kinda wanna see a modern take on this punisher

My problem with the Punisher is that he should just be named "the Murderator". He hasn't really punished anyone in.. pretty much ever. I mean, mobsters? Bullet to the head. Child molesters? Bullet to the head. Thieves? Bullet to the head.

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>>77781658
Death is the ultimate punishment

>>77780919
>What if the Punisher were Robocop?

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>>77781722

What other Punisher related project is worth reading? Have read only Punisher MAX so far.

>>77781883
Marvel Knights. Also 2099 for over the top edge.

>>77779876
And you are a shit director bud.
>almost ruined MCU flagship movies which was carried by the actors and cgi
>opinion relevant

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>>77781722

>>77780066
That's because you're not at a university, you're at a glorified daycare center that used to be a university.

>>77780210
That's because the quality of Frank varies wildly. Some runs are goddamn amazing, some of them are absolute garbage, some of them are like watching MST3K again.

>>77779876
That's why you're not running Marvel,buddy.

>>77781658
Considering hell exists they're going a really bad place.

>>77781500
Bill Mantlo was a terrible Punisher writer, his version of the character was just straight up insane, Steven Grant quickly retconned that story so that he had been drugged up by some villain

>>77779876
Go away Whedon.

>>77779876
They've tried m8, you can't Frank the Frank.

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>>77783521
They've Franked Frank at least twice, he came back way more horrifying than he was alive both times

You really don't want to deal with Frank after he's been Franked himself

>>77780919
That's not Punisher, that's Judge Dredd.

>>77782407

Like an unholy abomination formed between a Dreadnought and a Crisis Suit.

Would have thought it'd be packed with more guns considering Frank and all.

>>77779916
>>77780100
>>77780479
Being this much of a pleb

>>77781883
Remender Frank

>>77779876
Don't be retarded. EVERYBODY tries to kill the Punisher.

He kills them first.

That's not a guy you go, "Oh, yeah, let's go kill him, fellas! We'll succeed where many, many more credible threats have failed."

But he did in Miller's Daredevil run. It's a major plot point and he even shoots a black kid.

>>77779876
Really? If you were running Marvel you would shut down stuff you dont like? Sound business strategy moron...

>>77792781
It'd be sound business strategy if he killed off Punisher and replaced him with transracial otherkin.

The Punisher is a relic of the Death-Wish-era 70's and by all regards he should have been retired along with Mack Bolan and all those other 'Nam vet action caricatures. If he wasn't owned by Marvel he would have faded into obsolescence like all the rest.

However, the fact that they haven't has made him ripe for some interesting stories. And thanks to resurgence of stuff like Taken and John Wick people have a thirst for Older White Dude Murders Gangsters stories again.

This is the best time possible for Frank to Frank again in decades, it's just going to be Russians instead of Italians now.

>>77792816
You haven't read EnnisMAX have you?
Casuals today...

>>77792866

>However, the fact that they haven't has made him ripe for some interesting stories

Read my post m8.

>>77792878
The entire post is basically "man there should be some good modern Frank" when there's an abundance of good modern Frank and EnnisMax is taken/John Wick before Taken/John Wick even came out.

>>77779876
He hasn't.

One of the defining aspects of Frank's character is that the few times he actually does think he's harmed an innocent person, he's immediately ready to take his own because he thinks he's become what he hates. Frank does not hurt anyone who does not deserve punishment. If he did, he wouldn't be Frank.

>>77792917
No, he's saying that the Punisher is a relic of the 70s/80s in the mold of various other "family killed, now I kill crime" vigilante anti-heroes that were popular at the time. MAXFrank is simply a continuation of that, the story of one of those characters who continued to the present day.

Taken/John Wick are actually a different character archetype, as was Paul Kersey.

>>77793142

This 100%, I probably should have clarified it more.

>Paul Kersey

I mean yes technically he's not like the others, but Death Wish is what made all that stuff popular. And with the sequels Kersey morphed into one of those characters too, almost to the point of parody.

>>77779876
The only time I can think of a Frank killing spree that may have hurt an innocent is the one at the start of MAX. He usually is not on a spree as much as he is just taking out specific people

>>77793142
Yes I understand those characters are straight revenge characters but their methods, their military backgrounds and their brutality are more Frank than they are say, Josey Wales

>>77779876
Killing off a character because you dont agree with his point of view is fascist.

>>77781883
The other Punisher MAX

>>77793179
If you actually started killing thugs for yourself, you'd realize that that's exactly what happens to you over time. You become more and more hardcore and extreme because you actually DO have a deathwish and killing thugs only becomes a means to that end.

Which is something none of you understand because you're a bunch of BOYS posting in their underwear talking about comic books.

>>77793239
It's more the nature of their revenge. They have a singular goal with their revenge and a concrete stopping point plus they don't seek out crime, it comes to them. Paul Kersey is a pedestrian vigilante, no violence in his background, whose killing spree is aimless and who deliberately provokes criminals. Frank is the same as Mack Bolan, highly trained ex-military, waging a calculated and driven war against a specific target with no end in sight.

While I'm taking broad strokes, The Punisher has been pretty consistent in terms of entertainment, before checking the old solos, I had this notion that they were all shit.

>>77793352
It's more that by the 3rd film Kersey is a stone cold, one-liner spouting badass mowing down criminals by the dozen.

And if you started killing thugs for yourself you'd realize that what exactly happens is you get arrested or killed pretty quickly because this is real life.

>>77793352

>he thinks I meant the Death Wish movies got more hardcore and extreme

Tippity toppity kek. The sequels have about as much to do with gritty reality as fucking Commando, there's a reason Death Wish 3 is on every list of "Best Stupid 80's Action Movies" list ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9R389kyfYE

>>77780210
I think the best frank is a combination of these traits, he geniuinely thinks he's helping by doing what he does, and it's mostly true. However there's parts of him that loves the killing and the violence, and his gruff "fuck you " attitude is not because he doesn't like people, it's just the opposite, he wants to keep them safe. To do that he has to keep them away, or they wind up like everyone else in his life.

He's a tragic chaarcter, and he deserves not to be shit on, especially since he does the work no other hero is willing to do. Because of him, guys like Dare Devil don't have to get their hands dirty. It's a shame they won't let him kill people who matter every once in a while.

>>77793428
I think him not being allowed to touch relevant villains is a plus, it allows for creativity in the part of the writers and artists.

Real heroes KILL monsters. Punisher has saved a hundred times as many innocents as any "superhero".

>>77793446
I mean yes and no. But to be fair, Kingpin seems like the one guy he'd be able to murder out and out, and would do so. I think he's got more plot-armor than Frank and bats combined.

Best way I could think of is some sort of deal brokered, but I doubt Frank would go for that unless it made moral sense to him. Which is a long shot.

Him versus Neo-old HobGoblin would be awesome, Fank versus any street level villians would eb awesome.

>>77793467
I wouldn't say he could kill Kingpin that easily. Fisk is smart enough to surround himself with highly trained people, keep himself out of situations where he's vulnerable, use superpowered henchmen, and, at least until Born Again, a legit front. While I'm not saying Frank couldn't kill Fisk at all, Fisk would be far more difficult than someone like The Owl or Tombstone.

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>i dislike this character for petty personal reasons and i'd kill him off if i ever got the chance

man is it any wonder whedon's such a shit storyteller

he barely understands how basic narrative works

>>77793458
>has saved a hundred times as many innocents as any "superhero".

Save people by killing people? That sounds counter-intuitive.

>>77793467
>Best way I could think of is some sort of deal brokered, but I doubt Frank would go for that unless it made moral sense to him.
That actually happened, Frank's logic was that a dead Kingpin, would create a large vacuum in the ensuing gang wars, and too many innocents will get caught in the cross fire.

>>77793529
It's mostly just a very weird application of morality. Basically that people are responsible for the independent actions of others if they have any sort of connection, no matter how tenuous or theoretical. Basically it's the "why doesn't Batman kill the Joker" from the opposite angle.

>>77793529
How many people has joker or Osborn or any other recurring villain killed because superheroes refuse to do anything more than put them into prison or asylum? How many times do they have to escape before even the naivest superhero MUST realize that putting them behind the bars simply isn't working? You don't hear Punisher villains coming back and blowing up a few hundred people.

>>77793558
While it was a blow against inhumanity, Frank's actions are never potent in the long run, he's no better than Batman in that regard.

>>77793553
The question wasn't about responsibility, it was about saving people. Clearly Batman can't be responsible for what someone like Joker does, especially seeing how much effort he puts into stopping Joker... but at the same time, if he DID kill Joker, he WOULD be responsible - indirectly, at least - for saving all the people Joker otherwise would have killed.

>>77793558
It's not on the superheroes to kill the villains. In fact, as vigilantes they completely lack moral standing to do so. The onus is on legitimate law enforcement to capture and incarcerate criminals. You might as well try arguing that Aunt May is responsible for Norman Osborn because she hasn't killed him yet.

>>77793606
Morality and responsibility aren't a transitive property. Batman is no more responsible, even indirectly, for the people Joker kills than Joe Chill is responsible for the people the Joker kills. If anything, Batman's continued attempts to stop the Joker and bring him to justice put him far above the GCPD or Arkham, who fail to stop, incarcerate, or cure him.

>>77792816
>stuff like Taken and John Wick
You mean, unwatchable garbage?

>>77793632
>implying

>>77780919
>The prequel to Judge Dredd.jpg

>>77793639
They're bad though. First three Die Hard movies, that's quality action movies with the right balance of seriousness and humor. John Wick and Taken are boring pieces of shit taking themselves way too seriously despite being even more retarded.

>>77793628
I'm not saying that Batman is in the wrong for not killing Joker, I'm saying that he wouldn't be in the wrong even if he DID kill Joker.

>>77793653

>first three
>implying Die Hard 2 is any good outside of the last ten minutes

Also John Wick's humor is sedate, but it's there. And I like the grim seriousness of the first Taken just like how I enjoyed the serious tone of the Bourne films. Not every action movie needs a lot of humor in it, and this is coming from someone who worships Shane Black.

>>77793529
No, it's saving people killing people who kill people. It's not the same.

>>77793672
Bourne movies at least did their seriousness well.
I can't take a man saying a corny emotional monologue about a death of his dog seriously. I can't take the whole plot seriously. I can't take the most cliche Russian mafia possible seriously.

>>77780090
If there were more than one Punisher, they would've been the criminals.

>>77793717
>no, Frank, you are the criminals

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>>77780090

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>>77785534
Not even.

>littering guy gets a caution if it's his first offense and if Dredd is feeling lenient that day
>he probably isn't
>guy gets 30 in the cubes (assuming that magazine isn't prohibited reading material which could land him an extra couple of months)
>guy who runs the red light gets 3 months, his vehicle impounded, and his license suspended pending re-taking the driving exam and all appropriate driver's education
>and that's also assuming no one got into a wreck because of the driver's negligence

See? He's just a big teddy bear, when you get down to it.

I would probably get cube time for even discussing judicial business on outlawed mongolian hologram zones like this

>>77780919
Hey, that's Punisher trying to be Punisher 2099!

>I don't agree with it, therefore it must be deleted or shunned
You're fucking retarded.
>And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent, then I'm telling you, that's fascist crap.
The Punisher has resisted the Penance Stare.
The fucking PENANCE STARE. The fucking stare that works on anyone, no matter good or evil. Because it works off of pain caused, not if you feel pain.
And you have a problem with his aiming?

You're such a fucking faggot, OP. Seriously. Go fucking end yourself already.

>>77793607
>You might as well try arguing that Aunt May is responsible for Norman Osborn because she hasn't killed him yet.
>Implying Aunt May couldn't kill Osborn if she wanted to

Punisher merchandise sells well. He is one of Marvel's most marketed guys to adult males.

He's just behind the big six (spidey, iron head, thor, cap, hulk, and wolverine) but ahead of everyone else, aside from deadpool.

They have tried to kill him off multiple times, but he is so well loved that he always comes back.

Also is good for a crossover story if you want to show how your character will not budge on "no killing".

>>77779876
While I agree with you, I don't think he should be killed off solely because of those reasons, that's just silly.

>>77780581
Oh, so that time he almost killed Spidey never happened?

>>77793558
This is such a stupid fucking argument. The ONLY reason villains repeatedly escape is because they live in a comic book world. That's the only reason. You could put the Joker in a titanium casket molded to his dimensions at the bottom of a sea of concrete and he will escape the second a writer wants to use him. Likewise you could throw him into the goddamn sun and he'd still come back.

So you either have characters who are aware of this tendency towards chaos and don't kill because it's pointless, or you have characters who act realistically and assume he won't get out this time. It's like if someone in real life escapes from prison three times in a row, they're not gonna just execute him because of it, they're gonna use heavier security and assume it's gonna work this time.

Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker? Why doesn't the state kill the Joker? Why doesn't some random fuck kill the Joker? Why doesn't the Joker kill himself? Because it's a fucking story, dude, and in a story there are certain things you have to give a pass because otherwise there'd be no fucking story.

And to bring this point home, Spider-Man has "killed" Osborn you dumb fuck, guess what, he came back.

>>77779876
But he kills the poor and the coloured, Anon. And he's a veteran.

Why do you hate America?

>>77780090
If all heroes were like him they would expend all the time trying to kill each other.

>>77794809
Why /co/ can't understand this? What's so hard?

>>77780737
>>77780914
>Death as a last resort or side effect is the same death because I feel like it.

What if a child has committed a crime right in front of Frank?

>>77794840
>If all heroes were like him they would expend all the time trying to kill each other.

No.

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>>77779876

>>77795234
I don't understand that last part. I'm liberal as fuck and I love Frank.

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>>77779876

Somebody found a scan of the Wizard issue where the coward quote comes from.

There will never be a Punisher story comparable to the Fool Killer that came out in the early 90s

>>77779876
fag alert

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>>77779876
>Childhood is idolizing Batman, adulthood is when you realized Punisher makes more sense

>>77783592
>Frank-Enstein

Oh my god. That is 2meta4me

>>77793529
The dude blows up buildings and mows down people running in panic with automatic gunfire all day every day and never as much as discomforted anybody who didn't deserve it in the process.

His BS is more powerful than Superman-Batman-Wolverine's.

>>77795339
>Praises Hawkeye and wants him on his team
>Talks shit about Batman saying he's got no reason to be there because he has no powers

Okay Joss.

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>>77779876
what about this?
>punisher kills undercover cop
>have mental brakdown
>recovers, bows to never kill again
>but cirme still ravages the city
> turns into ninja punisher, whit knifes, swords and crossbow
>still brutal but not lethal

>>77796158
>punisher kills undercover cop
Ain't the theme of the character something like a Batman who kills? Doesn't he do extensive research before he starts the killing?

Is it a good thing that we treat characters almost as if they live and breathe to the point that we ignore the creative team, and elements of certain types of fiction? Because that's the vibe I get with these types of threads.

>>77795554
I notice complaints about that, but I believe that "power" is the biggest anti-vigilante statement, because for all the bullets that make their mark, nothing changes.

>>77781686

That makes no sense because even if you assume there's no afterlife you don't know you're dead. It's like being asleep forever or until your consciousness appears in a new form.

Has Punisher met Mephisto? Does he know that everyone he kills goes to hell? How does the afterlife work in Marvel?

>>77796158
A terrible Punisher plotline that makes it look like you wish you were writing an entirely different character.

If I was Marvel I would kill off all the villains.

They're thieves and murderers and I don't agree with them doing that.

>>77796347
I believe he kills because he enjoys it to an extend but from his point of when he kills a 'bad' guy he makes the world a better a place, not necessary sending his target to hell.

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>>77796196
impossible to check every henchmen online, Frank isnt event a top tier hacker so it's likely that he have killed at least 1 FBI agent

>>77796347
>How does the afterlife work in Marvel?

You go to one of the many Heavens, Hells, or Purgatories, unless your soul is somehow bound to something or someone.

99% of those who come back have no memory of the afterlife, they just remember everything up until they died.

>>77796196

He does, he goes through extreme lengths to make sure he's prepared for a job so no one unrelated to the hit is hurt, but he gets slightly sloppy when something in particular has set him off or he's preoccupied with an unexpected threat that can fuck his shit up hard.

>>77796376

Makes sense. People Frank kills don't usually come back.

>>77796379
Punisher's superpower is that everyone he kills deserved it

>>77796382

Is Kurt Wagner that 1%? Pretty sure he is.

And why wouldn't he be? Kurt is the best.

>>77796347
they go to hell

I only dislike it when the try to sell Frank as being righteous; as being the moral equal of Spider-Man or Captain America. They did that a lot back in the 80s, and that soured me on the character. I'm much more comfortable and interested when he's unambiguously a rampaging psycho (cf Garth Ennis).

I'm hard left leaning and see pacifism as the most morally sound decision.
And I still love Punisher stories.

Like everyone above me is saying.
A character doesn't need to be upright, moral or even particularly likable to be compelling.

The Punisher represents (like nearly all comic book characters) a fraction of the psyche of the general public at the time of his creation.

The argument people make comparing Comic books to Greek myths are not unfounded.
Like the gods they represent something in their people.
They're idealized/anthropomorphic versions of Zeitgeist. and philosophy.

Frank was whispering in the ear of every American at some point.

>>77796158
Sauce?

>>77796459

>They did that a lot back in the 80s,

Well it was the era of the action hero, but from the 80s stuff I read, he tended to get into debates on principles, the whole "this is my way," type of things, Frank's first solo series had him intentionally looking for trouble dressed as a hobo, he's the dark reflection of the action hero.

>>77796459

I really liked the presintation of him in Rucka's recent run. Which convinced me after more than a decade of thinking otherwise Frank can work in 616. It was great.

In it Frank is sort of resigned to who he is.
He is almost convinced his way is the wrong way. But it hasn't stopped him.

He has that classic toughguy with an apprentice moment where he says something to the effect of "you don't want to be like me"

His hatred for criminals and single minded war has taken its toll on him. But He continues the fight because its who he is and what he feels he must do.

That conversation Frank had with Thor was amazing. Anyone have the scans?

>>77779876

There are ancient dragon gods fighting side by side with space alien robots, and the punisher is where you draw the line?

>Heidegger, who took Kierkegaard's philosophy further, comes even closer to describing the Punisher: 'Since we can never hope to understand why we're here, if there's even anything to understand, the individual should choose a goal and pursue it wholeheartedly, despite the certainty of death and the meaninglessness of action.' That's sure the Punisher as I conceived him: a man who knows he's going to die and who knows in the big picture his actions will count for nothing, but who pursues his course because this is what he has chosen to do.- Steven Grant

>>77781883

Just started a thread on this
>>>77796741

>>77796347
Frank knows the afterlife, hell he worked for God as a demon killer for a while

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>>77796721

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>>77779876
Post your Franks

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>>77797661
Frank

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>>77793856
Just discussing things? Probably OK.

Discussing things here on /co/ (comic trafficking, receiving stolen goods, rabble rousing, breach of the peace, cheeking a Judge, pranking, possession of prohibited books, illegal trading, leaving the scene of a crime and, very likely, breach of health regulations) is another story entirely.

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>>77797723

>>77779876
Fuck off Whedon

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>>77797661
Fronk

>>77796379
woah, what wad?

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>>77797661
Frank