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I feel like writers have been trying to top themselves in making

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I feel like writers have been trying to top themselves in making The Joker meaner and badder to keep him "cool." Like, The Joker always HAS to be the sickest, most dangerous, most nightmarish man in the room, and he always has to do whatever will hurt others the most.

I think what they are forgetting is that what makes The Joker such a great character isn't that he's the worst guy around. It's that he CAN be the worst guy around. But he can also be a harmless prankster. And everything in between.

That's what makes him unpredictable. You don't know if he's going to key your car or run you over. If he's going to steal candy from a baby or steal a baby from its parents and pretend it's a football. To him, a death is the same as a knock-knock joke.

When he just takes the most depraved, evil action every single time, he becomes predictable, and he's no longer a wild card.
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The entire Batman franchise has run its course. All that's left is an endless series of "reinterpretations", each more edgy and terrible than the last.
I mean there's only so many decades until you stop caring because you know what the status quo is.
Pic related, brevity is the soul of wit. Best to leave the audience wanting more than running it into the ground because DC wants money.
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>>77658624
That's a problem with a lot of iconic supervillains. People see them as "the ultimate, iconic arch-villain", either for a particular hero or in general, but different writers have different ideas of what the ultimate bad guy is, leading to character inconsistencies. One person may write Doctor Doom, for example, as a well-intentioned man who thinks that the world would be better off with him ruling it, and holds himself to certain standards because some forms of evildoing are too "crude" and "vulgar" for a high-class villain like him. Others may write him as a man totally unbound by petty morality, who lets nothing stand in the way of his ambition and pride, because mercy is a weakness of lesser men.

The Joker has a similar problem. Because he's Batman's most iconic enemy, many writers try to make him into "the anti-Batman", which can mean very different things to different people.
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>>77658624

>I feel like writers have been trying to top themselves in making The Joker meaner and badder to keep him "cool."

Yep. Everyone wants to top Death in the Family and The Killing Joke.


The best Batman villains are Scarecrow and Andrea Beaumont
>>
don't worry, the eventual counter-culture will go and make Joker "relatable" and down-to-earth again soon
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>>77658624

>When he just takes the most depraved, evil action every single time, he becomes predictable, and he's no longer a wild card.

Exactly.

I remember an edgelord telling me Batman was boring because he was predictable compared to his villains.

But I guess breaking out of Arkham and hurting people with a gimmick every time isn't predictable one bit
>>
but see there's no one right interpretation of joker. People have written him as funny, scary, both, psychotic, a hyper-meta character, insanely intelligent, etc.


it's all a matter of personal preference. for me its btas>morrison>Englehart
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Then on the flip side of the coin, everybody rages when a character is changed because not muh.
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>No Joker Club to do battle with Batman Inc.
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>>77659168
All I'm hoping for is '66 Joker again.
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>>77658624
I've been saying this for years Joker has been dragged through the mud for decades in some sort of ongoing contest between writers to see who can come up with the most edgy thing. He's gonna rape a kid eventually. Also they turned his entire shtick into insanity. He used to be basically a bank robber/mobster with a jokes gimmick, not being crazy. Also, joker used to be able to lose, and sometimes he'd come out of things looking the fool when he was defeated. Now every writer has to make him so invincible that even when he loses he wins. Remember that episode of Animated Series Joker's Favor where this guy finally turns one of Joker's bombs around on him and Joker starts pleading like a little bitch not to kill him and crawling behind Batman for protection only for the bomb to be a joke bomb and both batman and the guy have a laugh at Joker's expense? You'd never see that shit anymore because Joker always has to have the last laugh now no matter what according to writers as if he's a force of nature. It's tiresome as fuck.

Killing Joke started it, Dark Knight popularized it to the point that that is the Joker as a character to the general audience and writers now.

I wish some fucker would come along and just write a giant Batman arc full of grimness and gore and debauchery with Bats trying to keep up with some one of Joker's schemes then it ends with a climax of Joker totally beating Batman having him tied up hanging by his feet in front of all of Gotham and then he just pies him in the face as he's hauled off to Arkham laughing his ass off.
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>>77659577

I liked how Damian ran him off the road with no fanfare in Batman RIP
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>>77658624

There needs to be a writer who will have Joker push the edge to it's absolute max. Thus not making it edgy anymore.

>Mutilate children and eat babies
>Kills women in sexually charged ways, like carving out their cunts or sticking a bomb in a bomb in their uterus
>Alternatively, he rapes them until their mind breaks
>Everytime he kills a supervillain or superhero, he skins them and wears it over himself like a full-body suit
>Owns a factory full of all the people he's killed, shoved onto a conveyor belt and thrown into a grinder as to squeeze their blood. Which later ferments into a fine wine.
>Has a human puppet suspended by meathooks whose bones have been broken and healed numerous times, contorting him into some parody of life, wishing for death to come
>Has an entire shirt made entirely of nothing but barbwire
>Shirt fits well with his JNCO jeans

The fans will absolutely love it.
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>>77659650
Hmmm that's interesting.

If you just ruin edginess forever by completely going beyond what anyone can tolerate maybe it'll finally end the fad.
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>>77659682
Was tried. Did not work.
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>>77659650
13 yr olds and people who emotionally never stop being 13 will always need a super-edgy character.

Plus, it gives them something to be on Halloween.
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>>77659710
Not nearly edgy enough to be effective. I've read edgier sitcom fanfictions.
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>>77659735
Anything edgier wouldn't be distributable on any sort of scale, nullifying the cultural effect.
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>>77659755
That's the point though, drive up the edge competition until it crashes in on itself by being unmarketable anymore.
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>>77659650
>sticking a bomb in a bomb
a bomb INSIDE A BOMB?!

too far man
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>>77659770
You'd have to abolish the ratings systems to do it for any effect.
And honestly, I don't think you can put anything on the medium of comic books that would serve to shock anyone overmuch. Compared to the shit swirling around on the internet, stuff like Crossed is laughably tame.
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>>77659577
That plot actually sounds fantastic.
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>>77658624
How does he actually speak at this point?

I imagine it sounds like salivating nonsense. Lots of sucking sounds.
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>>77659770

So someone needs to be the Chuck Yeager of edge?

Isn't that basically Garth Ennis?
>>
>kids are watching movies like Saw and the Walking Dead
>today's kids are edge lords and sickos
>DC is trying to appeal to today's youth
I don't know why they don't just make a Teen Titans Go! comic and fuck off with this edgy bullshit already.
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>>77659650
>Everytime he kills a supervillain or superhero, he skins them and wears it over himself like a full-body suit

That's... Actually kind of funny. Especially if he went around pretending to be them, while doing a bad impression of the victim.
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>>77659650
>sticking a bomb in a bomb in their uterus

Calm down Hideo. Don't just give away plot details for your next game. I swear if there's a boss who wears the skins of his previous kills....
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>>77659650
>shirt fits well with his JNCO jeans

Fucking kek. Is JNCO even still around?
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>>77658624
I hate the joker.
Hate hate HATE the joker.
Shitty Marysue villain who doesn't make any sense in any context except where you write a story to make the scariest, edgiest and deadliest villain even if it's absolutely retarded once you step back and look at it.
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>>77659868

Go back to bed Batman
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>>77658624
Hold up, he wouldn't be able to speak this good without lips, would he?
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>>77658624
I'm pretty sure Snyder was just trying to ape Morrison's run.
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>>77659151
>Andrea Beaumont
Fuck off DCAUkek
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>>77659650
>bomb in their uterus
Stop ripping off Mark "Genius of Edge" Millar.
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>>77659925
You're right, the writers spared us having to read fucked up writing (in effort to force the reader to imitate a lisp or accent).
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>>77659650
>or sticking a bomb in a bomb in their uterus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYrh5h9acg8
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>>77658624
What I hate is how they go WAY too far with the scale of his crimes.
He just causes too much damage and pisses too many powerful people off, that at this point the question is no longer why doesn't Batman kill the Joker, it's why NOBODY ELSE will kill the Joker.
I also hate how other villains cower at his mere presence and crap, even though realistically other villains should be able to easily kill th Joker.
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>>77659577
Gotham Academy and We are Robin only exist to create cannon fodder that people care about for the next Joker goes crazy crossover.

It's going to be glorious
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Any good story about Batman dealing with no longer having joker around? (preferably dead, but I suppose a canon story that focused on his feelings and mental state at a point he believed Joker wasn't coming back would work too)
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I dropped DC because of exactly this.

I was already pretty unhappy with the Flashpoint reboot, but when I picked up the rebooted Detective Comics and saw the face-cutting thing, I was done.

For fuck's sake, the Joker is already a psychotic killer clown, how much more edge does he need?

Did they ever explain WHY the Joker did that?
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>>77659980
Well, somehow this didn't make the comic any better really.
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>>77660016
muh insanity
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>>77660000
Joker can't die because he's immortal now.
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>>77659868
>Shitty Marysue villain who doesn't make any sense in any context except where you write a story to make the scariest, edgiest and deadliest villain even if it's absolutely retarded once you step back and look at it.

None of Batman's villains, or any supervillain, make sense if you try to apply real-life logic to them.
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>>77658624
Where does the Joker get all the resources for his evil plans. Does he have a secret bank account with infinite cash and a building-size warehouse full of everything he needs?
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I think Joker finally jumped the shark when he had his face ripped off. You cant really top that in crazy

Unless he severs his own dick
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>>77660028
Is that canon? I thought it was just our speculation?
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>>77660038
Joker doesn't make sense even if you apply Batman logic to him.

The Penguin is a socialite with a bird gimmick who commits bird-related crimes.

The Riddler is a genius with a riddle gimmick who commits riddle-related crimes.

Poison Ivy is a terrorist with a plant gimmick who commits plant-related crimes.

The Joker is a murderer with a clown gimmick who commits the most shocking, violent crimes he can think of, apparently because it's "funny" to him, even when it doesn't relate to his previous crimes in any particular way.
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>>77660076
Robbing people presumably.
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>>77660083
What if he severs his own dick and shoves it halfway up his asshole and calls the part sticking out his little tail while he crawls around on all fours pretending to be a puppy?
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>>77660076
There are a lot of abandoned circuses in Gotham.

Also this:
>>77660089
You'd be surprised what some people will pay for a child's report card.
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>>77660038
Yeah but the Joker is even more nonsensical.
>Billionair kung-fu expert technology genius prep master crime fighting icon who can out-prep gods and run a crime fighting enterprise
>Vs an evil clown whose only power is HE'S SO INSANE GUISE XD!!! that Batman can causally incapacitate break every one of his limbs and leave hospital ridden
If you have a villain that only possibly presents any real or logical threat because the plot demanded it be so or you needed to sell comics with that villain, you've got a pretty shitty villain on your hands.
And you can go MUH LOGIC like it's a comic yeah why should it make sense or apply real-life logic, right? Well if we were in the golden or even silver age you'd be right.

But you look at comics today and the writers take their shit so damn seriously, and expect you to read into them seriously with an air of austerity that's pretty nonsensical and mind-numbing when you take in how absurd of a character the Joker really is. He's like a cartoon character or gag attempting to be murderous and scary, only it's so stupid you cannot possibly be horrified anymore than when Road Runner and Coyote squash each other like pancakes.

OP was right about writers trying to top themselves. But if you actually take away the grizzly pictures and just look at the script or any of the Jokers deeds in writing it's indistinguishable from edgy fanfiction you could find on deviantart. It's awful.
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>>77660076
Why hasn't some random mugger shot him or beaten him up? Just how many superpowers or incredible healing powers does the Joker have?
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>>77659842
>>today's kids are edge lords and sickos
Unless anything hurts their feelings, that is.
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>>77660085
What the hell even are Jokers motives? He doesn't seem to have a reason for doing anything, besides being the batmans nemesis.
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>>77660164
>What the hell even are Jokers motives
lulz
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>>77660139
But you have to suspend your disbelief to a point.

"Billionair kung-fu expert technology genius prep master crime fighting icon" should have long ago easily stopped all of his villains and had them safely secured in proper holding facilities.
If Batman was that good, there wouldn't be any more serious crime in Gotham.

But then fun villains everyone loves would be gone and there would be no more comics.

So we just have to accept that somehow the villains keep on operating.
>>
Writers want to make him scary, I guess
I just wish comic book writers learned that gore =/= scary.
I think any comic book writer who wants to write their characters like horror villains needs to watch Texas Chainsaw Massacre both original and the remake to understand that if blood and guts were scary, the gorefest of a remake would be better than the tame but unsettling original.
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>>77659151
Best Batman villain is the Penguin, bro.
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>>77660249
They'd just prefer the remake and go back to work secure that they're doing just fine.
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>>77658624
This is why i hate Mr. Zsasz even more.
Joker will ocasionally do things other than murder everyone. With Zsasz, it's literally the only thing he ever does, kill people and cut himself to show how edgy he is
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>>77660180
>"Billionair kung-fu expert technology genius prep master crime fighting icon" should have long ago easily stopped all of his villains and had them safely secured in proper holding facilities.
>If Batman was that good, there wouldn't be any more serious crime in Gotham.

The counterpoint to that would be most of his rogues gallery are supervillains and have assets and skills far above normal criminals that makes them so terrifying.

Bane has enough strength to throw apartments overtop of people.
Poison Ivy can hypnotize you with plants.
Vandal Savage has tens of thousands of years of military, political and tactical experience along with millions of dollars.
It's a little silly but atleast within the internal logic of Batman they pose a credible threat. They can keep coming back and dishing out so we can have fun little comics and stories of him trying to stop them.

I've literally never understood why the Joker would have any presence. His entire character is wholly inconsistent. His strength, while weaker than Batman's isn't arguable. His intelligence ranges from highschool chemist to a killer you'd find on dateline. His skills are just made up bullshit for whatever the plot demands. There's absolutely no sense to his character or anything one could attribute to him.

Thus the only modus operandi he works by in a story is "Scary killer clown" who exists so Batman has someone to punch. And as a comedic villain, that works. In the 50s. But when writers want us to take them seriously how can we when the Joker doesn't make any plausible sense? Logistically, internally, ect.

Try just thinking about if Joker was a Superman villain for a second. Random insane clown vs the strongest man in the universe. Wrap your head around that.
>>
Joker is a crutch used by shitty Batman writers and has been for over a decade. He's become a character you're allowed to do anything you want with and so you can use him for whatever dumbshit story you want.
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>>77660278
Gotham is literally the only time I actually liked Zsasz.
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>>77660279
What if they make him like Jack Sparrow?

>Do you think he plans it all out, or just makes it up as he goes along?
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>>77659151
Odd way to spell Penguin and Bane
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>>77660279
>Try just thinking about if Joker was a Superman villain for a second.
The only thing that comes to mind is Injustice.
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>>77660000
Forever Evil established at the very least Bane considers it

I honestly wouldn't mind, Joker does have potential for a lot of good stories but what we need right now is a break lasting a few solid years. Let Bane, or, dunno, Talia, or Man-Bat take the nemesis role for a while, it'll be refreshing and Joker stories will feel fresh again after that time.
>>
>>77660279
Superman's nemesis is just an ordinary human with a fuckton of cash, a science degree, and a publicist. Half the time he only has one of those three things.
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>>77658624
The Man Who Laughs had literally the best Joker.
If only DC made a Batman movie about The Man Who Laughs, best Joker origin.
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>>77659843
i'd read that
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>>77659867
Yes, and they're going to be coming back soon. They're expanding their line.
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>>77661105
Isn't that the story where Joker gets his smile from a batarang in his mouth?
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>>77660393
Tone down the murder by a lot, and that sounds like a neat concept.
>>
>>77660278
>>77660342
Gotham and Arkham City are literally the only times I've seen Zsasz do anything, the rest of the time he's just referenced or in the background.
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>>77660139
Sounds more like a problem with Batman's power creep and too much cross-title synergy than a problem with The Joker, really.
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>>77661001
Excluding the late eighties and early nineties where he was basically if Trump took his public face off, Luthor has always been two log orders smarter than the average human. As in, he's one thousand times smarter than the average human.
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>>77660279
>>Random insane clown vs the strongest man in the universe.
YOU CAN'T ARREST ME FOR PUTTING PENNIES IN MY EARS, SUPERMAN
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>>77660084
Nope. He found Lazarus pit in some cave. Every time Batman beats fuck out of him, he takes bath.
And he's hundred years old or something.
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>>77661278
On the contrary, thanks to Tumblr's Trigger Prevention law introduced in 2016 I can now arrest you for disturbing the peace!
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>>77660139
batman is LE GOODGUY NO ONE DIES MEME

he's just as arbitrarily extreme in the moral spectrum as Joker is
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>>77660279
Superman has a villain whose gimmick is that he plays with toys.

Joker's power is his ability to keikaku

>>77660830
>talia
fuck you

Bane, Penguin, or Riddler for nemesis pls
>>
>>77661178

I think Gotham may encourage people to use Zsasz more
>>
Best 'modern' Joker scene was done by Neil Gaiman where the Joker was going to Batman's funeral.
Pays some poor kid to watch his car and the kid says something like, "But you are going to kill me!" And Joker just looks disgusted and says, "What would possibly be funny about killing you."
Because OP is right, and fuck all this edgelord crap.
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>>77661322
I would have no problem with this if he came back with a different personality each time.
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>>77659956
>implying that one can love the DCAU too much
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>>77659682
But Anon, Crossed has been going for years and not only do people continue to read it, it hasn't had any effect on the rest of the industry at all.
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>>77660095

Hell, we've ALL done that
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>>77661372
Did you read stories he told to bunch of characters? In one, he's malfunctioning supersoldier, in other he's part of robot conspiracy, in third he's demon.
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>>77660149

Because no writer wants to write that
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>>77661322
Wasn't the hundred years old just him trolling Batman with shopped photos? And that doctor who had something to do with Joker's blood but died soon later, he was probably in on the hoax too.
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>>77661399
But there's stories about Batman coming to the same end.
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>>77660783

He wasn't trying to spell Penguin and Bane
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>>77660149
>Why hasn't some random mugger shot him or beaten him up?
because criminals are a cowardly, superstitious lot
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>>77661414
Your guess is good as mine. I roll that Joker is ancient and taking baths every now and then. Until new origin is presented, this is my headcanon.
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>>77661416

While that is true, a writer still has to WANT it to happen to write it.
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>>77659780
Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb!

Personally, though, I loved the animated Joker (voiced by Mark Hamill) the most. He was dangerous unpredictable, but still very entertaining to watch.
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>>77660176

this
>>
The problem with "muh realism" is that it eventually crosses the line and if you don't give a "real life" solution to the Joker in the end, it becomes very silly.

Why do people allow him to prance around killing and maiming at will? I'm sorry, but will someone please put a bullet in his head?

If he's cruel and does fictionally acceptable violence, we can believe it when Batman puts him away. But when he crosses the line, it doesn't make any sense.

It's like saying that the guy that articulated the shootings in Paris should be put away in an asylum. It just doesn't work: go back to being a comic, please. Leave the edgy stuff to eventual else worlds spin-offs.
>>
>>77661327
HAHAHA! Oh wow.
>>
I'd genuinely like to know why there are so few stories where another villain would try to harm or just defeat Joker. While power level wank is stupid and ultimately it's true that all that maters to "who's stronger and thus wins" argument is whether you can make an interesting story out of one character or another winning/losing, it still boggles me that nobody ever considered making, say, Bane or Ivy try to take on Joker. Hell, any moralfag villain would do, not even a Batman one necessarily, you can always use the Rogues for that or something since they're resident villain moralfags
>>
how does this joker even make "M" and "P" sounds?
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>>77661856
speedforce, pym particles and punch dimension
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>>77660249
>implying you shouldn't make them watch the entirety of the evil dead series so they learn that gore = gratutious in every sense of the word.

Seriously, violence should be used to reward the watcher, not scare them.
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BTAS Joker had the perfect balance of campy and evil.
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>>77659462
>mfw I can't find that compilation video on YouTube of Cesar Romero turning from a merry prankster to a snarling, dangerous man in the blink of an eye
>>77659577
>>77660000
This. It shouldn't be a case of "When will Batman kill The Joker?", it should be "When will The Joker stop being so competent?"

Also, nice dubs, and well done to the second guy for getting dubs AND quads
>>77660002
I hate that this is accurate.
>>
Why don't we just let Magog kill the joker?
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>>77661174
No idea what story you're talking about there, but MWL is about Joker putting poison in the water and threatening to kill social figures. He gets the look from the chemical dip when he was red hood.
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>>77661363
You mean Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader? Yeah that story was great
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>>77659151
Whilst I do love meself some Spookycrow, you got to admit that 98% percent of his plans end with "gassing x with fear gas"

Only one story he went full spooky without the gas.

Best villain is Penguin, followed by Riddler
>>
>>77658624
The whole thing with the joker sticking his face back on with rubber bangs basically is the most stupid thing I have ever read.
>>
>>77662463
I always felt like the obvious conclusion to that scene was the joker then turning around and killing him. I'm not sure if the decision to not have him do that makes it a better of worse moment but I admire Gaiman's restraint.
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>>77660139
You severely underestimate the Joker's the resourcefulness. As biased as you might be towards him you have to admit the simple facts. He's intelligent and calculating. He might not possess Luthor-tier of intelligence but the fact that the two of them have worked together has to show for something.

And him being crazy is open to interpretation.
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>>77658624
>no skin on his forehead
>still has hair
>>
>>77661414

He was trolling Gordon with possibly shopped photos. The first few were online, but Gordon's personal photos might have just been his mind slipping from the infection.
>>
This reminds me of Deadpool vs Carnage, where Deadpool defeats Carnage who claims he is an agent of chaos by proven that his predictability makes him part of the system of order he hates
>>
I love the joker when hes has a reason for what he does. Killing Joke for example. He wants to prove that one bad day can make a man go crazy on both gordon and batmans side. He shows gordon pictures of his daughter lying there naked after she was shot surrounded by these weird midget creatures, and on batmans side he pushes batman to his limits and so batman kills joker

I don't know why but I fucking love this joker instead of the grotesque joker they are trying to push right now.
>>
>>77659842
>I don't know why they don't just make a Teen Titans Go! comic and fuck off with this edgy bullshit already.
There is a Teen Titans Go comic.
Teen Titans Go 11 9,771
Doing pretty good for a digital no one cares about.
>>
>>77660267
Can you recommend any good penguin stories? I'm not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just curious
>>
>>77661393
Salsa?
>>
>>77666089
The Teen Titans Go comic is better than the cartoon version and the current Teen Titans comic.
>>
>>77659650
Jesus @ the meathook one.
>>
>>77660278
Well to be fair, Zsasz doesn't appear all that much. Joker is overexposed in the extreme. So while Zsasz may be theoretically worse in that regard, he doesn't really matter so no one cares. Joker is both really bad in the edge department and shows up ALL THE TIME. That's at least half the problem.
>>
>>77663476
The idea behind Joker/Lex teamups always seemed dumb to me, there's no other dynamic than just "main enemies of our two biggest properties". Might as well constantly have Joker allying with Cheetah or Professor Zoom for no reason, it wouldn't make any more sense.

Lex teamups that make the most sense are either ones featuring other science-based villains like, say, Sivana or Morrow, or those that stay within the boundaries of Superman's own rogues gallery.
>>
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>>77658624
>>77664777
>no lips
>uses 4 phonetics that require lips
>>
>>77666729
Penguin: Pain and Prejudice
>>
>>77661178
He actually did something different in Streets of Gotham, which I found impressive.
>>
>>77658624
What is even going on here? Haven't followed anything Batman in years, but what bullshit even had to happen for Joker to be in that state and still be alive?
>>
>>77662985
Actually, he kills him at the end of the issue.
>>
>>77660000
Don't remember it super well, but I do remember really liking the episode of the Justice League cartoon with the villains all teaming up and Lex's reaction to Joker showing up is basically just telling him to fuck off.
>>
>>77668760
>what bullshit even had to happen for Joker to be in that state
Dollmaker cut off his face

>still be alive?
Comics
>>
>>77668136
It kinda made sense back in the Silver Age, where Lex was a criminal and Joker pootled around in The Jokermobile and stole mudpies. And it DID make a lot of sense in the Gibbons/Rude/Kesel World's Finest miniseries
>>
>>77662463
>>77662985
Yeah, I always felt like he screwed himself over. Like it wouldn't have been funny to kill him UNTIL he pressed him on the issue and made him explain that.
>>
>>77658624

agreed.

Batman needs a break for a bit.

personally i want things to get a little lighter for a bit.
>>
>>77658767
>All that's left is an endless series of "reinterpretations", each more edgy and terrible than the last.
Not necessarily.
>>
>>77661001
>a science degree,

And by science degree we mean "can build a time machine out of shit he found on the ground"
>>
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>>77669743
The catch is it has to be for the explicit purpose of fucking with Superman
>>
>>77658767
I disagree, but I think the Joker has become an unusable character.

Batman needs new urban criminals, drug lords, corrupt businessmen, not only deranged psychos.
>>
>>77661348
None of the writers today that are writing modern edgy Joker would ever touch toyman and try to take him seriously.

It's taken his character to absurd proportions that they want to make the Joker clown Aizen.
>>
>>77668136
Why not?
Lex is the pinnacle of reason and rationality used or evil. Joker is the pinnacle of unreason and insanity. They seem like they'd make a good pair, not saying whether writers have pulled it off that way, but in theory it could work.
>>
>>77672165
>Joker is the pinnacle of unreason and insanity

>what is Bizarro
>what is Shade
>what is Mr. Nobody

Joker's just a mobster who wants to be funny, he's not really the highest point of insanity even among Batman villains
>>
>>77661780
>>77661419
Cowardly does not mean weak. It makes way too much sense for a terrified villain or henchmen to say "Hey, this guys a maniac! He get's all his minions killed and would probably murder me for kicks if given the chance. I should shoot him in the back of the head or bust his neck."

Even if it wouldn't work (Because of...the Jokers super Insanity powers? I don't know) it'd be atleast more believable to see writers try it than never have any villain think it's in their interest to just kill him spontaneously and quickly. That's what I loved about Kingdom Come, there wasn't any fuss or hesitation about it, chumps just went up and did it.

>>77661723
This. They want so much realism and nitty gritty dark introspection but the Joker doesn't work well with this kind of bullshit.

You know those B-Movie monsters from horror movies that can never die? Those are like force of nature villains, sent from hell. Even though a team of cops or someone strong enough should conceivably be able to kill a masked murderer, or some spook with a chainsaw, an evil dummy or whoever, the air of mystery and danger around them protects them from dying. Atleast until the end where the protagonist has to pull some convoluted bullshit (Usually their weakness, and after everyone else has been offed) to finally put them down from good.

But no writer in these 'realistic' stories would ever be willing to admit that the Joker is just supernatural that way. Oh no, he has to be a superscary mortal man who just 'Is'. Imagine you're watching a crime thriller or kung fu movie and there's some asshole who just refuses to die when shot or busted up. Whereas we're all staring waiting for them to drop dead because after the first minute and 9 fatal blows it's just silly and stupid and we want the hero to win and story to end.

That's what's it like, placing a goofy horror supervillain in a crime that tries to be all sin city.
>>
>>77672240
He's the most notorious icon of Insanity in Batman, by most definitions. He doesn't even have any real motives or tangible goals, he's just insane like that. (Which I'm starting to realize is like an edgemasters equivalent to their oc being lol so quirky XD)
>>
Scarecrow, Penguin, Two-Face, Riddler, Hush, they all tried to fuck Joker up before. It's not unheard of.
I feel these feuds are left for the human characters because they rule the criminal underworld and will get conflict of interests more often, while more powerful things like Bane tend to have very specific goals.
>>
>>77659964
He prefers "edgegod"
>>
>>77672455
Big point of Bane's character, especially recently, is that he identifies with normal criminal underworld more than costumed supervillains
>>
>>77659755
The same writer wrote and had distributed a much more edgy comic so......
>>
>>77658624
I remember this shit, and I'm still surprised Leto's Joker was called edgy, sure we actually still know little about his performance, but come people.
>>
>>77672552
Leto was more called tryhard and to be honest he does look like he is trying so very hard.
>>
You're being reductionist by reducing all interpretations of Joker to just "whacky" or "edgy".

As Morrison wrote in Arkham Asylum, the Joker is good because he can constantly reinvent himself to keep up with Batman.

Prior to Snyder, he still did plenty of wacky stuff in between heinous acts. That was his schtick for the last like twenty years.

Snyder's interpreting Joker as a slasher monster who always seems to be two steps ahead and can't be stopped.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's a valid interpretation.

You know what I'm tired of? People coming to the conclusion that THEIR favorite version of a character is the only legitimate one and all others are shit. The Joker actually changes MORE than probably any other major villain, too. From crazy clown killer to master planner in Morrison's run, to the one we have now just in the past few years.

If you acknowledge the strength of the character is his flexibility, why are you being so inflexible?
>>
He'll be fixed when Snyder steps down. We're already seeing a non-edgy Joker in Batman Europa. But I wish to see him a lot less in the future, for a long time.
>>
>>77659650
>>77659682
>>77659710
>>77659730
>>77659735
>>77659755
>>77659770

The Unfunnies exists.

Its impossible.
>>
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>>77659151
You are doubleplusuncorrect
>>
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>>77672805
I just want a Joker that is like the DCAU Joker.

Is that so wrong?
>>
>>77672601
Except OP is saying that the Joker is better when he changes all the time. Valuing his unpredictability.
New 52 has had a much stricter version between books and it's pretty much all Snyder's version, which is terrible. DotF Joker was not a slasher villain that was two steps ahead, just a fucking keikaku god who just beats Batman because he's too good, he's not scary, there's no suspense.
>>
>>77661336
except he kills 2 police officers in Year One...
>>
>>77658624
>The Joker always HAS to be the sickest, most dangerous, most nightmarish man in the room
But that is plain wrong. He does what he considers funny, and more often than not is actually quite witty. But he also has every mental illness under the sun so what he considers funny changes like the wind.
>>
itt:

>my interpretation of the character is what's correct, and no matter what sound refutation you present, I will cast it aside because reasons

never change /co/
>>
>>77678792
>"SOUND REFUTATION"
>about the ideal personality of an evil comicbook clown

never change Reddit.
>>
>>77672388
He does though. He desperately wants to show up Bat-Man and desperately wants acclaim and adulation. Honestly I never got this whole "no motives" thing. Despite what he says and what writers write. If you look at his character history it's a story about a zany niche community deciding to appeal to a niche in his audience, while never knowing when to stop trying to top the jokes he's done.

That's always been his problem though, guy's a malignant narcissist who doesn't get that when the joke doesn't hit it's the comedian's problem, not the audience.
As it is he's that guy that shows up to open mic night with one good joke, other half-baked almost jokes, and who ends the night shrieking it's the audience's fault for his god awful timing and delivery. The guy doesn't fundamentally understand comedy or what makes a good joke.
Which could be funny, but he isn't doing it on purpose.
If he really had no motives he would have killed himself years ago. Or been a vegetable.

And all that together leads us from Romero to Snyder. That or maybe we're all watching Romero Joker slowly lose his grip on reality. Forgetting what funny is while relying more and more just on flat grotesquery and shock value to try desperately to please his niche's niche's tastes and "top" his previous acts.
>>
>>77659650
I really want this to happen.
>>
The problem with Snyder Joker is that he punks Batman and his family way too easily.

I'll never forget how ridiculous Death of the Family got with Joker controlling Arkham from the inside with nothing but threats and charisma checks. And Batman siting down in an electric chair because Joker threatened him.

He's turned Batman into his Batbitch.

The cool thing about Batman in the Animated series was that if it came down to it he could SCARE Joker.

I don't see Snyder doing anything to Joker besides making him hard.


What we need is for someone to show up and punk Joker. Superman maybe? Like what if that Max Landis Adventures of Superman story didn't suck.

I want Superman to show up and just ruin Joker's fun. All his traps disarmed, all his plots solved, all of his jokes answered with a wry and knowing smile.

And Superman won't fear him but pity him as he does any bad guy. Because he's Superman.

I'd give anything to see Clark start to make jokes about the Joker until Joker starts getting pissed like in Batman Beyond.
>>
>>77681394
>And Batman siting down in an electric chair because Joker threatened him.

Arguably the worst Batman moment in the past 10 years.
>>
>>77681467
>that pic

How much bullshit is in Zero Year and Endgame too?
>>
>>77681394
>Superman super-speeding in an out of the conversation with Joker because he has "more important things to listen to"

>Starts to zone out on Joker mid-rant. "Oh I'm sorry, you were saying something? I was paying attention to a ball game a few miles off at Metropolis Stadium

>Joker starts talking about "Muh Chaos and Muh Nihilism". Superman tells him that we don't have to let our circumstances define us and that its never too late to strive for a better tomorrow.

>Superman tells Joker that he's a stronger human being than he thinks he is and he doesn't have to let his pain define him like Batman does

>Superman Hugs Joker

>Joker doesn't cry. He just frowns and gives up. He lets the hostages go and just asks to go back to Arkham where things make sense to him.

Could this work as an improvement on the Landis comic or am I just writing shit?
>>
>>77681394
>I want Superman to show up and just ruin Joker's fun.

Wasn't there a short story about that? It was pretty meta (and cringy in some dialogues), where Joker tries to get on Sups mind and Clark goes "meh wathever, you're an edgy clown with a dumb fanbase lol"
>>
>>77681467
I've noticed that the Batman in Snyder and the Arkham games is...not that smart of a detective.

Like seriously. He's really not that smart.
>>
>>77681467
>Walked up and told him

Did he really do this? I just remember that stupid OH MY GOD HE GOT IN THE CAVE OR MAYBE HE DIDN'T IDK IS IT ALRIGHT IF I NEVER TOLD YOU THIS SENPAI?


And don't forget Harvey backing down on shooting the Joker in the face because Joker told him that he's such a master of keikaku that the gun would probably blow up in his hand or maybe not HA HA MASTER OF CHAOS!

He listened to the insane clown posse instead of you know,

USING HIS COIN TO DECIDE


Joker actually overrides Harvey's gimmick.
>>
>>77681548
Yeah, that was the Max Landis story in Adventure of Superman.

It was about as good as you'd expect a story by the guy that wrote American Ultra to be.

Meaning it sucked eggs.
>>
>>77672601
A trickster is a shapeshifter by nature.
>>
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>>77681607
>Did he really do this?

Like, okay.

I think Snyder seems like a very nice person, with a genuine love for the character.

And, hell, Greg Capullo is one of the best things to ever happen to the monthly Batman book.

But, holy shit, it actually happened like that.

Very little of >>77681467 is hyperbole.
>>
>>77681648
The trick about trickster figures is that they're always OP-but just to a point.

Even the Monkey King got his shit pushed in when he went to far.I feel this is where the Joker is currently failing as a modern trickster. All good tricksters from Coyote to Hermes eventually have someone punk them.

Someone needs to get a big solid win against Joker. Someone needs to really school him.
>>
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>>77681607
>Did he really do this?
Said Bruce does it after Dick comes to live with them too.
>>
>>77681664
>>77681688
...Why did he do this?
>>
>>77681536
all but the hug seems cool
>>
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>>77681467
>>77681664
>There is probably someone out there who thinks this is the best batman story because it's edgy
>>
>>77681536
>>77681704
So basically Kingdom Come if Superman didn't show up at the Daily Planet too late?

I'd like a story like this. The only sad part would be people will miss that its a reference to Kingdom Come and think its a reference to (shudders) Injustice.
>>
>>77681703

Bruce was particularly retarded in this arc.

>Bruce, Joker knows who you are!
>Of course he doesn't.
>But he swam into the batcave and left that card for you!
>Yes he did... but I swear he knows shit!
>>
>>77671978
What this guy said.

Batman is amazing because he stands up for the small guy, for the small and big causes alike. He is a hero not only because he saved the city but because he also helps kids who need a home or a school.

Every single new arc is about the city getting destroyed, and the main characters being beaten until one inch of their lives. Just for what's supposed to be a few weeks later to be perfectly healthy again.


Even worse, they've got people writing gottam who know nothing of violence and crime. They say the city is so terrible it seems to be cursed, and yet the only times we get a number it's actually a pretty low one.

Real life is dark, broken and many times hopeless for an absurd amount of places, there's no need to bring Rhas or Hush every arc . That's what gotham was supposed to be about a pretty good reflection of our worse cities.
>>
>>77681703
I can't even remember but the narration boxes make it sound like Bruce wanted to see if Joker cares who he is. Of course to Snyder's Bruce that means Joker will never hurt him as Bruce!
Though Joker killing Dick like right after this would make a funny Booster Gold story. Having Booster find out that Joker knows but fucked with Batman using Bruce's friends anyway, and having to go back to fix it all.
>>
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but what if... we had the trickster kill the joker?
>>
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>>77681467
>JOKER IS A SLENDERMAN, JOKER IS A DEMON JOKER IS, JOKER IS...
>well he just fell into a lazarus pit.
That fucking arc was disgraceful, I was just happy about how batman died so MAYBE we could finally move into a new direction, but NOPE.
>>
>>77681467
The only reason people cum over Snyder's Batman is the art.
>>
>>77660164
>What the hell even are Jokers motives?

Well, once upon a time, when Joker did not suck, say, in BTAS, his motives were stealing shit and taking horrible disproportionate revenge on anyone who ever pissed him off, mostly, but not limited to, Batman.

Unfortunately these times are in the past.
>>
>>77660164
Snyder's Joker is mostly gay for Batman.

DOTF and Endgame were mostly about Joker and Batman's relationship.
>>
>>77673251
The issue with that is that DCAU Joker is a cartoon.

No matter how dark the series gets, there's always going to be a limit of what Joker can and will get away with.
Look at the Mask of the Phantasm. We know that Joker kills Salvatore Valestra, but we don't see it on screen, we just know that Joker's given him some of his venom, and that he dies in the explosion.

But then when Joker is fighting at the end, instead of picking up the knife, he ends up using a slab of meat as weapon. It's funny.

What do you think it would have been like as a comic?
>>
>>77682130
I think censorship plays a big part into this also.

The shit Snyder pulls in the comics, there's no way they would have been able to do in the DCAU.
>>
>>77658624
I Think they were not able to change anything for me is the same, just because he has a gardener suit doesn´t mean he is badder. He is just getting his hands dirtier , but that´s nothjing new.
>>
>>77682296
Yeah, it may be the first time I'm actually thankful for the censorship.
>>
>>77681467
Christ I forgot how much bullshit was in DOTF. Truly terrible story.
>>
>>77669525
this show was too good for this world
>tfw could never discuss it with friends because their casual batfags who scream ''NOT MUH BATMAN'' NOT MUH KEVIN CONROY''
>>
>>77682296
>>77682321
I mean, this happens in all sorts of media. Like, sometimes YA sci-fi or fantasy ends up more uniquely threatening or scary than an adult counterpart because the author isn't allowed to lean on "RAPE MURDER KILL GRIT"
>>
>>77659151
Hugo Strange is way too underrated
>>
>>77659577
I'd totally buy that story arc. Fan-freaking-tastic!

You got a future in front of you!
>>
>>77683190

After reading Prey and Terror and playing Arkham City recently I love Strange to death.

I kinda wish he'd been the big villain of Batman RIP instead of Morrison using le obscure old character.
>>
>>77660279
Joker has taken on Supes several times, and won some of them.

So it just depends on the writers.
>>
>>77682059
Capullo is fucking wasted on this garbage.
>>
>>77683345
>Arkham City
Wasted Hugo Strange. It should have been a mutual stealth see-who-fucks-up-first thing, not a fucking arena fight.
>>
There can still be edgy batman villains but Joker should go back to being an egotist with a sense of humour. Him interacting and fucking with the more serious villains was always much more interesting than them just being afraid of him.
>>
>>77683927
Wasn't part of Hugo Strange's character that his bodybuilding was mostly for show? That is, Batman works out and trains because it helps him stop bad guys, but Dr. Strange just works out because he likes muscles and wants to feel strong. Is that a thing, or am I misinterpreting things?
>>
>>77684346
I don't remember that being in the game tbqh.
>>
>>77684346

>Wasn't part of Hugo Strange's character that his bodybuilding was mostly for show?

Hugo's gains were legit; the main issue he keeps emphasizing were his GENES. He was a very short guy, but brought to his physical peak, but in comparison to Bruce -- you get the idea.

Hell, it's even shown that anybody but Batman, he fucking wipes the floor with.
>>
>>77682130
To be honest, I feel like these kinds of limitations is what made the best versions of Joker so great. Because of the fact that he can't simply use death as a punchline, he has no choice but to improvise, and actually do something funny since his go to shtick is banned. Jomer is one character that actually benefits from restrictions.
>>
>>77659925
This pisses me off, also Two-Face in TDK
>>
>>77660278
...mmmmmMY MONEY!
Can you beLIEEEVE it!!!
>>
>>77672050
Didn't Toyman come back as a pedo and killed Cat Grant's kid?
>>
>>77658624
Maybe just fucking give up on Batman comics, because this shit is never gonna change.
>>
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>>77661723
this, also mazzucchelli has something about it
>>
You know what the shitty part i? For people who actually like the characters there's only a handful of modern stories where he's actually portrayed as a madcap foil to Batman's straight man.
>>
>>77677114

he didn't, you idiot

also, even if he did, that's an elseworlds
>>
>>77687208
What IS the general consensus on Europa so far?
>>
>>77687476
The premise is interesting and first issue grabs you. Don't expect anything too exciting happening in it just yet, though.

Btw that story was fun
>>
>>77681559
are you including the arkham games because they are popular and just haven't been playing them?
I mean a big gameplay feature is Batman investigating crime scenes
>>
>>77668962

I don't remember that.
>>
>>77687443
Year One was canon until the reboot. Hardly an elseworlds.
>>
>>77687608
The Arkham games are actually perfect in terms of character portrayal.

>http://vocaroo.com/i/s0lCC0jtKaRn
>>
>>77661375
DCAU>DCU
>>
>>77687476
>>77687588
This looks good. Issue names?

>>77687208
This too.
>>
>>77662824
Ah ha, ha ha ha. No.
>>77673210
AHAHAHAHAHAH FUCK NO!

The Riddler is a spoiled damn child and a whiny little bitch who's sole reason for going after Batman is that he can't stomach the idea of somebody being *Gasp* Smarter than HE is!

I hate the Riddler, simply because he's an arrogant twat in any format or universe.
>>
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>>77687874
Legends of the Dark Knight #162 - #163
>>
>>77687914
Calm down, Joker.

You'll always be Batman's number one.
>>
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>>77687914
Frank Gorshin Riddler is GOAT and you know it.
>>
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>>77658624
You're describing what's wrong with the big two generally.

I completely agree.
>>
>>77682130
I loved how he used a giant slab of baloney instead of the knife, great moment in a tense scene.
>>
Does anyone else share the notion that Joker isn't really Batman's opposite, he’s his broken mirror image?

I think that's what makes him stand out from the rest of the rogues.
>>
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Does the Joker like big guys?
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