This show is like 50% Jessica Jones turning down good ideas.

But then how could we stretch the show out to 12 episodes?

Isn't that accurate to her character?

>>77647465
No. It actually isn't. This was a result of poor writing.

>>77647465
Not really. In comics she declined only to date Scott Lang and go to Savage Land.

Her problem is making bad decisions. Like listening to Carol and avoiding Luke instead of clearing out "cape chasing" rumors and getting drunk and trying to fuck a cop and ending up behind bars.

>>77647463
I just watched the episode where they try to dart and kidnap Kilgrave. For a second I thought this show was actually about to go in an interesting direction.
If she gets Kilgrave in custody and proves to the world that he exists, then he escapes and we get full on mind control versus the world shenanigans.
But nope, of course it doesn't work and we continue on with this ridiculous status quo of Jessica doing inconsequential shit while Kilgrave sits and laughs since he could easily stop her at any point because he's ridiculously OP.

>>77647445
Actually, it's 50% Jessica breaking locks and opening locked doors.

>>77647566
Well it makes some sense that he just sat back and watched her run around since he couldn't control her but wanted her to fall in love with him. It's not like he could kidnap her and hold her hostage forever, hoping she'd just love him

>>77647566
Also this show has a serious problem with grimdark bullshit. I know they're trying to be dark, but fuck the "kill me" guy and Hope trying to abort a mutant baby are just so fucked up it sucks any possibly fun right out of the show. If fun was air then those two plot points were like opening the door on the fucking space shuttle.
Not to mention that making Kilgrave THAT evil makes him impossible to enjoy as a character, which is a shame because he could be so fun to watch.

She slept with the dude playing luke cage. You can't tell me you wouldn't do that.

>>77647634
Is that what he's trying to do? Well that's ... dumb, but hey at least it's a reason. I wish the show had just told us earlier what his goal was because it just sucks all the tension out of the show knowing that he could stop any plans they have but that he just isn't for reasons unknown.

>>77647662
It's weird how I would fuck anyone from Jessica Jones' cast no questions asked.

Except for Jessica.

what I don't get is what makes her think capturing him alive and using him to prove he exists and his powers exist was going to work? wouldn't he just, ya know, mind control everyone? and if you keep him in a hermetically sealed soundproof room how do you prove he has the powers?

>>77647445
Uh, what? I could count five times JJ could have easily taken out Kilgrave without needing to resort to killing him, but because of dumbasses like Nuke, Jeri, and Robin, he is able to escape. I don't understand where this hate for JJ comes from, like, did you guys even watch the show?

>>77647445
She nearly got him exposed and captured but then Hogarth and Nuke fucked it all up.
She had him captured again and got tape over his mouth and Hope's release had been secured but then Robyn fucked it all up.

A lot of it is everyone else being stupid

>>77647718
you counted 5 times Jessica had a good plan that was going to work perfectly or you came up with 5 ways YOU would stop Kilgrave?

>>77647695
Im not gay but I would like Tennant cum in my asshole

>>77647754
No, as in, JJ literally had Kilgrave in her hands, as in, literally in the sound proof tank (but freed because of Jeri) and tied up (but freed because of Robin), and because of Robin, Holly died, and because of Nuke, lots of other people died needlessly, and don't even get me started on Jeri. The only supporting characters that didn't fuck up shit were Malcolm and Trish.

>>77647744
>>77647718
Well you guys are farther than me, but so far every idea Nuke had when planning their extraction, including that they should just put a bullet in the guys head, were great and she actively fought against all of them.
Then Malcolm suggests that they should profile Kilgrave's powers and figure out his limitations and she shuts him down. Like jesus woman, for someone devoted to tracking this guy down you sure are the worst person for the job.
Also how on Earth can she justify helping Luke Cage with his missing person bullshit or whatever is going on this episode. Woman you are busy tracking down literally the most dangerous man on Earth.

>>77647838
Malcolm was the one who said loudly in a crowded restaurant that he helped dispose of a body, which directly led to Robyn taking charge of the Kumbaya Circle Jerk and setting Kilgrave free again

>>77647445
This show is garbo compared to Daredevil.

Of course that's all sidestepping the biggest issue of this show. The whole idea is that she needs evidence to prove that Kilgrave exists but yet she ignores evidence left and right. Really as soon as the cop attacked Trish the show could have been over. You have the video tape of the attack, and you have both the attacker and the victim testifying that he was being mind controlled by a man whose description matches that of Hope's, Jessica's, and the dozens of other victims. I don't know if that would be enough of a case to get Hope out of jail, but I can guarantee that the trial would be enough for SHIELD and the Avengers to get involved. And for the world to know that this guy exists and not let him get away with everything.

wait, there are people who think locking him in a tank and torturing a confession out of him was in any way a good plan?

Kilgrave gets away like three times. Even four if we include the Hope/Cafe/Hanging scene.

>>77647715
Watch the fucking show. this exact situation is talked about.

>>77647973
>I don't know if that would be enough of a case to get Hope out of jail,

That was the point of the whole thing, get Hope out of jail.

>>77647445
>This show is like 50% Jessica Jones turning down good ideas.
>Seriously, does she ever make a good decision?

Confirmed for not reading the comic and being a shitty MCU bandwagon jumper.

>>77647857
>Well you guys are farther than me, but so far every idea Nuke had when planning their extraction, including that they should just put a bullet in the guys head, were great and she actively fought against all of them.
Yeah, but you're forgetting about Holly. What, should JJ have just left her locked up? Without Kilgrave alive, there would've been no way to prove Holly's innocence. And Nuke killed Detective Clemens. If he hasn't of, then JJ would've had proof of Kilgrave's powers, which she could've used to save Holly and perhaps exonerate many more people who've been controlled by Kilgrave. Like, are you forgetting the fact that Nuke killed Clemens and tried to kill JJ?

Then Malcolm suggests that they should profile Kilgrave's powers and figure out his limitations and she shuts him down. Like jesus woman, for someone devoted to tracking this guy down you sure are the worst person for the job.
...I actually don't remember this scene. If it did happen, then yeah I have no defense for JJ, but I /guess/ you could reason that JJ already knew what Kilgrave's powers were, and she did learn that surgery anesthesia was his weakness.

>Also how on Earth can she justify helping Luke Cage with his missing person bullshit or whatever is going on this episode. Woman you are busy tracking down literally the most dangerous man on Earth.
I think the biggest reason for why JJ helped Luke was because she wanted to stop him from viewing the files, because she didn't want him to know she was the one who killed Reva.

>>77647897
True.

>>77648102
>>77647857
>Well you guys are farther than me,
WHOOPS NVM don't read my post full of spoilers ayy

>>77648097
why didn't jessica just ask purpes to do exactly what he did on his own while he was open to taking orders from her
THEN capture and kill him

>>77648003
Torture no, but when she got his parents in there and he used his powers on them, along with a Police Detective who witnessed the whole thing and provide testimony, then she got empirical proof that his powers existed and that would have been enough to get Hope out of jail legally.

>>77648003
Personal theory is that if he spends some time alone in a tank then it makes filming his parts a lot easier.

He can film that in England with a small group while the rest of the cast stays in the states.

>>77648097
Well those are small fucking potatoes to jeopardize letting Kilgrave go free where he can do the same thing to other people every day.
Also, you make a case, you go to journalists or straight to SHIELD or what have you, THEN you can get Hope out of jail.

>>77648147
That would've told Kilgrave she was recording the whole thing. Like, it'd be painfully obvious, and her cover would've been blown.

>>77648015
I know. I saw it. they go on about how they need him alive to prove whats her face's innocence but how do you prove a man has mind controlling powers without having him mind control everyone? he either mind controls anyone you try to prove it to or he doesn't and you have no evidence.

>>77648188
no it wouldn't. when they were sitting on the couch and he brought up balancing the scales, right then and there she could have told him if he really wants to do that he needs to get hope acquitted.
he would have told the DA to let her go, chaperon him to the office to make sure he doesn't put in any of his suicide contingencies on anybody. Then jessica could have gone as ham as she wanted

>>77648173
>those are small fucking potatoes

Not for Jessica, at the beginning she wanted to get Hope free as a "redemption" of some form.

>>77648173
>Well those are small fucking potatoes to jeopardize letting Kilgrave go free where he can do the same thing to other people every day.
What? JJ wasn't the one who let Kilgrave go. It was Jeri and then later Robin. Him escaping was not JJ's fault, so I don't understand why you're shitting on JJ for his escape. Also, "small potatoes?" If you were the one in prison, you wouldn't be thinking that. What, are you really upset at JJ having empathy and not being an apathetic bitch?

>Also, you make a case, you go to journalists or straight to SHIELD or what have you, THEN you can get Hope out of jail.
She'd still need proof of Kilgrave's powers to get Hope exonerated.

>>77648198
Get enough evidence and witness testimony from reputable sources that it convinces even one juror of reasonable doubt.

That's all they needed.

>>77648250
True, but I'm thinking Jessica didn't want to use his powers for anything unethical. Like, tell me, does mind controlling a DA to free a criminal sound heroic?

>>77647956
Pretty much yeah.

>>77648266
Its an admirable goal the 1st time she captures Kilgrave, but after that everytime she let him live after drugging him was beyond retarded and selfish.
So many innocent people died because she was on her crusade to save Hope, and Hope dies anyways.
The fact that she was "free" to kill Kilgrave after Hope offed herself was stupid, what about all those people he kills/tortured? What about Ruben who she clearly didn't give 2 shits about, what about the poor guys jacket?

>>77648276
>reputable sources
that was 2 weeks job.

things went south because of Trinity.

>>77648276
They actually talked about this and I think this is the reason why that support group was first started, so that Jeri can use them as witnesses, but I don't think they ever brought it up again.

>>77648349
Jessica is a shittty person, I agree there.

She's selfish and doesn't care about anyone, nor wanted to be a hero anymore, even at the end.

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>Daredevil
>Interesting main plot about Matts growth as Daredevil, and Kingpin's rise / fall
>Side characters are interesting, with sidestories you care about
>Fight scenes move around from being good to god tier
>Endings only flaw was the squishy faced retarded gimp suit

>Jessica Jones
>Main character has no real growth, only change being her accepting black cock into her life
>Side characters are fucking terrible. Only slightly redeeming character being her sister
>Fight scenes are complete garbage, painfully bad close and quick editing of Jessica throwing people across rooms. Only good fight scene is the bar fight with Cage. And then only because of what is happening with Cage.
>Ending is retarded. Killing Killgrave removes his control over people, so she literally could have killed him a few episodes in and all the people tasked with offing themselves would have been fine

Fuck me, shit was horrible. Nothing happens, it goes nowhere. Killgrave doesn't have any interesting growth, neither does Jessica. Rewatching Daredevil to get the poor taste out of my mouth. Just have to hope Luke Cage doesn't end up being this shitty, which I have to imagine it won't, because Cage will be setting up the Heroes for Hire thing, maybe.

>>77647598
More like 90% breaking locks 10% following people.

>>77648326
if that's what was going on then no it doesn't. but in reality its just to save the leg work towards the same end of freeing an innocent person.
nobody gets hurt, hope goes free, purpes still pays.

and keep in mind the rest of the show could have still gone down the same path more or less, but freeing hope like that would have eliminated the plot hole and retarded notion that her torture evidence would ever be admissible.
let torture be torture, I think the justification for torturing him is way worse than just having him walk in and set her free.

>>77647662
It was weird watching them interact in interviews because it seems like Ritter either did fuck him or desperately wants to.

>>77648406
>DD's side characters are good besides Urich
Nope. Foggy was botched Karen Page was horrid.
I can't rewatch DD because of the mexican woman subplot.
I couldn't rewatch JJ either but still.

>>77648349
>Its an admirable goal the 1st time she captures Kilgrave, but after that everytime she let him live after drugging him was beyond retarded and selfish.
>So many innocent people died because she was on her crusade to save Hope, and Hope dies anyways.
>The fact that she was "free" to kill Kilgrave after Hope offed herself was stupid, what about all those people he kills/tortured? What about Ruben who she clearly didn't give 2 shits about, what about the poor guys jacket?
WHAT? I DON'T UNDERSTAND. Like, why the fuck is everyone shitting on JJ and blaming her for Kilgrave? Like, you guys DO realize it was Jeri who let Kilgrave go? You guys DO realize it was Robin who let him go? You guys DO realize that in the chances JJ DID have to kill Kilgrave, he had contingencies, like telling those cooks to kill themselves if JJ did anything.

>Its an admirable goal the 1st time she captures Kilgrave, but after that everytime she let him live after drugging him was beyond retarded and selfish.

And I don't fucking understand this either. You guys are getting angry at JJ for caring about Hope, but I bet you wouldn't be saying this if you were in Hope's position. Like are you guys mad that empathy is a thing?

>>77647695
Just the exact opposite from this.

I really like Tall bitch no panties.

>>77648471
4chan doesn't like the show because it's a woman.

>>77648173
>Go straight to SHIELD
How does one go straight to a super secret organisation that one may not even be aware exists?

>>77648462
The mexican woman subplot at least had some links to Kingpins story, the whole rebuilding of Hell's Kitchen etc etc.

Fucking side stories in Jessica Jones, episodes on episodes about the fucking dyke lawyers marriage all JUST for an excuse of one cut wire.

Then you've got the side story of the druggie and the twincest team. Holy shit, I thought once the druggie was free from Killgrave that would be it, why the fuck did we continue to get scenes with him. So fucking boring.

>>77648520
SHIELD doesn't publicly exist anymore anyways.

>>77648276
then what? he goes to jail? wouldn't he just eventually tell everyone in the courtroom that he is innocent. or not to move, then he just leaves and tells everyone to kill themselves after he leaves. when someone has mind control powers you really can't win with normal law and order methods. and if it was just about proving Hope was innocent how do you do that with someone who has mind control powers? a bunch of people all agree to having someone mind control them? you really think a jury would believe that? or that any of it would be admissible as evidence?

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>>77648504
>Show was shit
>People give reasons as to why they think it was shit
>N-no they don't like it because its a female lead
Jessica Jones was fucking garbage, gender swapping it wouldn't have fixed a thing. None of the problems of the show was caused by the fact it had a female lead. In fact it worked in the shows (Very few) strengths. The whole 'Killgrave literally kidnapped and raped the shit out of me' was interesting, a revenge story, like Kill Bill or something. At least it could have been an interesting if the show wasn't shit. Which it was.

When Luke Cage ends up being shit, I'm sure people will cry racism too.

>>77648576
All the side stories of JJ are about "control" and its different effects.

Trinity isn't in control of her hormones or her relationships, even if she's the boss of her partner she has all the control in the relationship and strong arm her to do something stupid like helping Purple Man.

Robin controls her brother and pretty much everyone around her with a vast arsenal of screams and craziness.

The hobo and the drugs are obvious.

Look, I¡m not saying they are fun or interesting, but they do tie to the rest of the show, thematically.

>>77647973
Video of a cop attacking someone and then both people saying, "Oh, it was the mind control guy," isn't proof that the mind control guy is real. There could be all kinds of motivations for murder with far more mundane explanations.

>>77648683
>thematically
Maybe the writers should have been less worried about getting it thematically linked and more worried about it not being boring shit.

>>77648588
1) Prove that Kilgrave has powers and what they can do. (Video of him getting powers as a kid, the Albert's own testimony, video of him ordering his mother to stab herself, a detective who swears that he saw it all himself)
2) Prove that Kilgrave and Hope had been seen together in public.

Some of the evidence would get thrown out but it could still be enough to get someone on the jury to think Hope wasn't responsible

>>77648588
They could keep him in another hermetically sealed room to await trial and have him appear in court from a video feed.

>>77647463
More sex scenes. With the twins.

>>77648762
>(Video of him getting powers as a kid, the Albert's own testimony, video of him ordering his mother to stab herself, a detective who swears that he saw it all himself)
proves nothing. this is said in the show. it can all be dismissed as being fake or staged.
>Prove that Kilgrave and Hope had been seen together in public.
which proves what? they knew each other?

its not about convincing 1 person on the jury but all of them. 1 person doesn't get Hope acquitted.

>>77647445
The the characters always made the right decisions we wouldn't have much of a show

>Show was great
>Being praised everywhere
>Come to /co/
>Jaded assholes claiming it's irredeemable shit

Every time

>>77647445

Jessica Jones makes incredibad decisions.
Its pretty much her other superpower

Why are you guys surprised?

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I don't really know anything about Jessica Jones or her powers. Am I getting this right?

>Can jump kinda high sometimes
>Can take unbreakable black cock
>Not bullet proof in any way but can dodge 12 rapid fire pistols for some reason
>Can break locks really well
>Can't get drunk

>>77648898
Yes it does, Hope is only guilty if all of the jury members vote guilty. If one or two jurors believe Hope and vote not guilty then the jury gets deadlocked.

>>77648795
what does that prove? that they kidnapped a man and are holding him indefinitely in a secret prison in horrible conditions?

they should have just killed Kilgrave, hired Nelson and Murdock to help hope and then meet up at Luke's bar have a couple of drinks and wait for this whole thing to blow over.

The most inconsistent display of super strength I've ever seen

>can effortlessly life a car with one hand
>can't KO people with one punch

God she fucking sucks.

>>77648975

>Can't get drunk

She absolutely can get drunk.
Shes a fucking alcoholic.

At most her powers give her higher tolerance.

Shes

I'm about halfway through.

I don't really like how it's the same "Bad guy needs to be brought out into the light by underdog main characters" story as in Daredevil.

>>77649020
To be fair, that's got to be hard to do properly without:
Causing brain trauma
Exploding someone's head off
Going too soft and gently brushing their cheek

>>77649020
...probably because those people are mind controlled and JJ doesn't want to give them a concussion/broken bones/any lasting injuries?

>>77649020
She can kill people with one punch.
She didn't like doing it.
She holds back.

>>77649033
Her powers give her a higher tolerance? Why? This is never explained. In fact, her powers are never explained. She can jump and is strong? And she has a high tolerance for drink?

>>77649012
>If one or two jurors believe Hope and vote not guilty then the jury gets deadlocked.
thats not proving her innocence though. Hope could die in prison before they convince them all. and again what makes you think the court would accept mind control powers into evidence?

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>>77647772
I never got his appeal until this show
I get it now

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Reminder

S2 villain will be the HIGH EVOLUTIONARY

Kilgrave, Luke and Jessica are results of experiments giving people evolved abilities.

The name of the company jessica was treated at when she was young IGH

IGH EVOLVes people into specials

IGH EVOLVes

H....IGH EVOLV

HIGH EVOLUTIONARY

First episode was really good, but damn did it go downhill from there. While watching it I was wondering why Jessica never used her jumping ability. Then she did near the end over the cops, and I realised why. It looked like a joke. All of the action scenes did.

Such a shame to waste a good villain/actor on this mediocre-at-best show.

>>77649141
>IGH
Inhuman Growth Hormone, dude.

>>77649149
Killgrave was fucking wasted. If the show spent less time on the terrible sidecharacters and instead gave him more screen time (And some things to do), it might have been salvaged.

Daredevil was so strong because both Daredevil and Kingpin had lots going on, character growth and plots.

Meanwhile in Jessica nothing fucking happens, ever. And holy shit the action scenes were bad. So fucking bad, quick cuts, close ups. I can only imagine its because the actress was garbage. There is a reason people shoot action like that, its to hide the actors lack of any real skill. I think that's why Daredevil worked, because the actor could do physical shit, and because he wore a mask it was easier to have stand ins for some scenes.

At least Luke Cage should be good. Given that his deal is just standing there while people fail to stab him, then knocking them out with a bored expression. Easy to do. The bar fight was great.

>>77649075
>>77649080
>>77649081
You can knock some one out with 6 pounds of force to the jaw. She could have just knocked them out no problem.

If it was to capture kilgrave she could have ended it all right fucking there. But no she's a peice of shit.

Jessica Jones

IS
FUCKING
HORRIBLE

I liked both Daredevil and Jessica Jones but in very different ways. I preferred Matt's character because I found him more sympathetic and interesting than Jessica who was abrasive and never underwent any growth. I was more invested in the supporting characters in Jessica Jones than Jessica herself or the supporting characters in Daredevil. Kilgrave was a great villain though Fisk was still good. Daredevil fight scenes were amazing. Also, I found it easier to binge watch JJ than DD for some reason.

>>77649020
>Over powered by a few people with cattleprods
>Struggling to get scissors out of an old mans hand then strain him
>Gets ass beaten by a cop on adrenaline yet somehow is on equal footing to Luke Cage
Her strength was so fucking all over the place. Friends who watched it had no idea about her powers, nearly all of them were confused as to how strong she was meant to be.

Given how shit the fighting scenes were, not surprised. Whole thing was sloppy as fuck.

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Jessica isn't bullet proof, right? So why didn't Killgrave just get someone to fucking shoot her.

Oh wait
>12 cops shooting rapid fire across a room
>All miss
Its one of THOSE shows.

>>77649328
Me too. Binged it in under 24 hours whereas DD was over a week. I think I like DD overall more just a tiny bit though.

>>77649097

They never say she does Im just guessing.
I mean it makes sense on some level. Higher durability and nominally enhanced healing could lead to higher alcohol tolerence.

Plus shes an alcoholic.
I'm a functioning alcoholic (Just 3 to 5 drinks a day) am a skinny mother fucker yet I drink most people under the table.

If you drank like she does in the show and had her powers it would take a lot to get you hammered.

Jesus Christ you're spergy.
They don't need to lay everything out.

>>77649141
>>77649159
So it will be Phaeder?

Killgrave is going to turn out to be alive right?

His power boost added healing factor .. right?

>>77649573
No he ded.

>Healing factor
Lol nerd, too comic book nerd shit for us new fans. Bro I loved when they made fun of the "Jewel" outfit. Ha fucking nerds are dumb.

>>77648588
Video feed, moron.

>>77649632
which proves nothing. you can't prove someone has powers on video. plus they are holding him illegally which makes any evidence they get from him inadmissible. and if you mean video feed from a regular prison how do they arrest him? he'll just mind power his way out of it.

>>77649159
inhumans and high evolutionary work better than a AOS crossover.

i dont think netflix wants to link themselves up with AOS in any manner so far and if you go the inhumans route what better way than High evolutionary.

>>77649536
i think more Herbert Edgar Wyndham modernized to keep in tune with scientific experimentation gone wrong vein the series touched on.
Phaeder would be cool but may be out of theme

>>77649149
Yeah that first episode was great wasn't it?
It's amazing how fast it went to shit. I mean Daredevil took half a season before it started to fall apart, JJ was unravelling by episode two.

Man where did the choreographer from Daredevil go? They sure fucked up by not hiring that guy again.

>>77647647
Go watch literally any other Marvel live action property if you want impotent light hearted fun

>>77648406

>>Killing Killgrave removes his control over people

No one knew if that was true, since he'd never died. Kilgrave wasn't controlling anyone right at the very end, and that was why he was vulnerable.

I think what Daredevil did that Jones fails at is that the deaths had meaning in DD. In Jones, they are largely forgotten after they happen.

Remember when one of the Russians died and the other brother started a gang war to eventually sacrificing himself for DD? Or even the old lady who Foggy and Karren got really broken up over?

Flashforward to Jones, and she forgets about [spoilers]Hope's death[/spoiler] a few minutes after it happens.

Look we can bitch all we want about the plot points and tone or whatever but that's not the problem. It's characters. A show can only ever have one truly damming problem and that's characters. A movie can have boring or flat characters and coast by on plot or action, but it's just not possible with a show. You have to spend too much time with these characters. And the truth is no one would care about these plot problems if we cared about the characters.

Look at Daredevil. It had problems, and the characters weren't Shakespeare but they weren't flat. Matt was conflicted and had an arc. Foggy was light and funny without being annoying. Page was interesting enough. The nurse was pretty boring, enough that I can't remember her name, but was still more interesting than anybody in Jessica Jones thanks solely to Rosario's charisma. Nobody in Jessica Jones had even that because they were only allowed one mood and that was dark and moody. Tell me one likable thing about any character in Jessica Jones. They're all flat, boring pieces of cardboard going from place to place and saying lines.

>>77651459
Matt had an arc?

>>77651459
Would you feel this way if the characters were played by men?

>>77652148
You say that like there weren't any male characters.

>>77651459
I liked Malcolm because he was trying to give a shit about other people.

>>77647956
True that.

>>77652228
Yeah I cared about Malcolm because, you know, he actually cared about other people. It was hard to be invested in/sympathetic for Jessica because she just didn't give a shit outside of people in her circle

>>77649420
Didn't she also get overpowered by the crazy twin girl and the Killgrave support group?

>>77649474
Hell they also used the old "I'm close to my retirement pension" trope too.

>>77649013
they literally go over this in the show your retard

>>77649327
>you can knock someone out with 6 pounds of force to the jaw
bullshit

>>77652619
Just saw that episode, they bum rushed her.

>>77649420
Seems most of the time when she's overpowered it's because she doesn't want to really hurt someone. The bodyguards when she was getting cattleprodded, didn't she think they were under control? The support group and the old man, she didn't want to just break them in half.