/co/'s stance on moral ambiguity: >villains are really

>>77635318
i hope you arent refering to nox, a man who knowingly tried to destroy the universe for purely selfish reasons, as a "good guy"

>>77635920
I'm not, but most of /co/ still sees him as a good guy deep down

>>77635318
That's cause their assholes and instead of living up to the examples of fantasy heroes want to bring them down to their level or at the very very least be thought of as a great hero/heroine or "good guy/gal" even though their just regular assholes.

>>77636642
The fuck are you on?

>>77635920
He was trying to reverse time. Any damage he did would have been undone and when he realised it wasn't he couldn't live with himself and died.

Well the good guys being assholes is a little too much like real life, so...

>>77637530
He knew that not only was there no evidence that what he was doing could work, he also knew that the consequence of failure would be the end of everything. He said something himself along the lines of "If I succeed, I will be forgiven. If not, it will not matter." It's that last part that makes him pretty clearly selfish.

>>77636583
Good guy is stretching it. He has understandable motivations. He's a neutral guy. Or would be, if he weren't insane.

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Morality does not instantly destroy or make a story, the writing always has to carry the themes. The themes don't carry the writing.

Now that's out of the way, what are some good examples of good guys who are really assholes deep down inside?

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>>77635318
>2015
>not being a hero to some and a villain to others

>>77635318
There are two different way to present the story. You can have bunch of various flavours of asshole fight for our amusement Game of Thrones style. No clear good guy destinied to win, just endless ambiguous struggle.

Or you can have designated hero-villain dichotomy. Then make sure people you demand us to root for deserve it.

I think discomfort with "hero asshole" setup is not inside fiction but that it paints author as someone who thinks assholes are great people and we are watching show made by assholes. Conversely, being able to listen to the enemy and comprehend their point, even if not sharing it, paints author as noble and compassionate person.

>>77635318

People like good guys and relatable characters, who would have guessed?

A villain who is really a good guy gives us an opportunity to relate to him and to like him more.

A good guys who is really an asshole make us loate him.

>>77635920
>expecting sensible opinions from anyone who watches a shitty fanservice anime that pretty much only keeps going because waifufags throw money at their kisckstarters

I like the look on the good guy's face when they realize that they are the bad guys in this.

>>77637618
Not OP, but I like hero redemption stories and/or antiheroes - where they are "good guys" at heart; but they've become too selfish or have "fallen off the wagon".

Take a character like Han Solo - a smuggler/rogue-like character who initially embarks on a journey for selfish reasons (money) but ends up helping others because it's the greater good.

He goes from blasting Greedo, taking his money, and running to helping save the Galaxy.

Speaking of, GotG does the same song and dance.

Constantine is another example of a "good guy asshole".

>>77635318
What moive is this??

>>77638188
The End of Envangelion

>>77637591
>If not, it will not matter
It won't matter because everybody would be DEEED

>>77637591
>he also knew that the consequence of failure would be the end of everything
not really.

What are some good examples of well-written unambiguously evil guys with no motivations who aren't cosmic forces of nature/evil or comedic routines?

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>>77640327

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>>77637950

I like the first one. we need more of it.

>>77640366
>DIO
>not a force of nature
Yeah okay he's pretty great.
Do you, by any chance, understand what the fuck is up with ｢Heavy Weather｣

>>77640366
I don't see why people keep saying he's one of the greatest anime villains of all time. He was just retardedly lucky

>>77640448
>retarded luck
>not a superpower
You obviously haven't been reading the same Jojo I have

>>77635920
Better than Ogrest.

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>>77637999

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>>77640422
>｢Heavy Weather｣

Araki was on drugs when he wrote those chapters.

Basically it use rainbows to create subliminal messages that turn you into snails. Those subliminal messages also propagate throught physical contact with either the snails or the rainbows.

Seriously, I never understood why it's King Crimson and not Heavy Weather that has the "it just works" meme attached.

>>77640525
Who do you think is his favorite elf to jerk off to
I bet it's Pinpin

>>77640561

Eva or Female Eliatropes/Eliotropes

>>77640560
It doesn't help that the scan quality for Vento Aureo is total shit
If we had some actual fucking scans maybe I'd be able to figure it out. Fucking Heavy Weather. Fucking tiny green plant baby that is also Dio for some reason? What the fuck why am I still reading this after they stopped using the Ripple.

>>77637618
Jean Gray, Tony Stark, Joyce Brown

>>77640327
Lobo, arguably Joker

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I'm going to be using LoK as my primary example once again

>villains are really good guys deep down

Each villain had a reason to do what they did that backfired because they lost focus on what their goal was in the first place

>Amon wanted equality but his obsession of wanting to be the Avatar caused him to think Genocide was the only surefire plan

>Unalaq wanted Unity but out of ALL the spirits he went to he went to fucking Vaatu because he was jealous that Raava chose Korra over him.

>Zaheer and The Red Lotus wanted Equality through Revolution because some of the worst aspects of the 100 year war were still around

>Kuriva wanted Power. Simple as that because she deemed the people currently in power as "unfit to rule"

Korra is an idiot and would believe even the simplest of lies. She is literally a puppy. She loves you unconditionally till you push her over the edge a bit and then she starts becoming a nuisance of herself

>>77640685
>the Main Man
>evil
Selfish, arrogant, greedy, hedonistic, wanton, violent, savage, barbaric
these are all words you can use to describe the Main Man
Evil is not a word you can describe him with

>>77635920
He was more of a tragic guy. The chances of him being redeemed was close to none but he lost control of the situation long ago.

It's difficult to hate him because it doesn't feel like he's causing suffering, more than he's caught in the centre of a whirlpool of suffering that drags everyone else in.

>>77635318
There was nothing ambiguous about Nox though. He was pretty clearly insane and his plan was deeply flawed right from the start. He just deluded himself into thinking otherwise. His intentions were purely selfish.

>>77637591
The guy was completely nuts, he didn't have a clue what he was doing and lacked the rational to know.

My only problem with "asshole heroes" is when writers fall in to the trap of the antagonist being so absurdly evil that any real moral ambiguity is basically done away with. It's ultimately as simplistic as good vs. evil except now it's just cunt vs. bigger cunt.

>>77640366

> with no motivations

He was jealous and wanted to destroy the joestars. As a kid he was a brat but not world threatening.

Also

> posting dio
> on /co/

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I still find it hard to see how we are supposed to side with Hellboy rather than Nuada other than "because Nuada wants to kill humans."

The movie clearly shows that Nuada's father did everyone a favor with the truce, and then humans went and fucked everything by not keeping their side of the deal.

Nuada had every right to be angry and seek revenge.

>>77640936
Jojo may as well be /co/ at this point. I see much better Jojo discussion on /co/ than /a/

>>77641009

Because /a/ actually keeps up with it and they have discussed it to death, so all that's left is how much they want to fuck the pillar men.

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>>77641023
Who doesn't want to fuck the Pillar Men

>>77641074

> you will never have a husbando too pure to be a warrior

>>77641204
>your husbando will never absorb you through his skin and incorporate your energy into his near-perfect body

>>77641268
> near-perfect body
> not preferring Ultimate Kars

>>77640845

While his intentions to get his family back where good, the actual methods to getting his family back was pretty screwed up and flawed (Genocide, anyone?)

>>77641315
Sadida aren't really people. They are more like humanoid asparagus.

>>77641315
He might've been desperate to get his family back but he didn't exactly think through how they'd react to him now being a 200-year-old insane time mummy with countless atrocities on his hands. It never would've worked out to begin with.

>>77640989
/co/hates classical themed heroes, aka heroes of old epics.

>>77640989
Nuada was evil because he wanted to kill all humans because of what some evil humans did.He was right to be angry but he wanted to punish everyone for the sins of a few.

>>77640366

Neither /co/ or without motivation. Kira was the motivationless Jojo villain.

>>77640422
But can you see his stripes and know he's clean? Oh don't you see what I mean?

>>77641603
Thanks for reminding me I need to go listen to Rainbow in the Dark on loop for a bit
That whole album is great tho

>>77641518

But how is that different from the bprd killing dangerous supernatural beings? To Nuada, humans were a danger for magical beings.

The other option would be Nuada negotiating territory with humans and I don't see that working either.

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>>77641628
Indeed. Can't go wrong with all of his albums.

>>77641705
I'm reporting you for crimes against metal
images with stupid, unfunny captions need to die

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>>77635920
>>77640494

I like Ogrest and Nox, but my favorite Wakfu villain is Harebourg

>>77641628

This is a pretty good Dio song too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iif3xZWQDeY

>>77637591
To be fair, Nox was batshit insane. Not the type of character you expect to team up with the heroes in the sense, just a somewhat okay guy with pwoer and insanity.

>>77635318
>>77635920
Nox was difficult to hate in my opinion because he was originally a pretty good family man who was driven insane by the Eliacube. Sort of difficult for me to blame a mentally ill person for their actions even if what they're doing is fucking terrible.

>>77640561
definitely pinpin

>>77640366
I'm still mad that he killed Johnathan Joestar and took his body. What a fucking asshole

>>77641337
but they're humanoid asparugus with nice asses and hips

>>77641776
Before he went full-retard in the wakfu OVAs, Harehourg was great. Kind of sad they ruined him as a throwaway character.

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>>77640989

You are a fag anon.

>Fae retract until humans dont even know that they existed, intead of keeping contact and reinforcing the truce with future humans. Hummanitty literally forgot the truce because they couldnt maintain the tradition and even know that it existed, after thousand of years.

>Fae and magical beings choose rather to never contact with humans again, making them remember of the truce.

>Fae dont help or even contact, when its well know that a lot of mystical beings regulary attacks humans, hence the creation of BPRD.

>Butthurt prince wants to kill every single human being, that did nothing wrong, and even remeber the fae.

>Huuuur Hellboy, how you dare killing the last plant elemental that I sent to kill you! What an asshole you are! Now leave me to kill every single human on this planet!

If you are on his team, you are a manchild or angsty teenager. At the very least, he is not better than the worst humans presented on Hellboy, and that he wanted to fight. He wanted to kill all humans even before the broke the truce.

>>77637950
>You can have bunch of various flavours of asshole fight for our amusement Game of Thrones style. No clear good guy destinied to win, just endless ambiguous struggle.
Like Tom and Jerry?

>>77641629
The difference, is that BPRD dont kill every mystical being, and just fight when there isnt other alternative.

Hell, do you even saw the movie oor read the comics?

>>77640989
Kin killing is a step above genocide for the elves, fum.

>>77640723
Just because someone has good intentions does not make them a good person. Zaheer and Unalaq especially.

Sounds to me like you just hate Korra so much you have to bend over backwards to justify everyone that want to push her shit in.

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>>77641839

It's really disappointing when you see him as this pretty cool Xelor villain with a decently-sized background history and then seeing him in the OVA as a generic white haired bishe who has a creepy lust for one of the main characters (even being smitten over her as he is watching a recording of a 14 year old Amalia)