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http://kirbywithoutwords.tumblr.com /tagged/kirbywithoutword

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http://kirbywithoutwords.tumblr.com/tagged/kirbywithoutwords/chrono

A blog analyzing Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's collaborations. It's odd to see how their conflicts over story made it to the finished page. For the most part Lee had the last word but some of the shit he changed made no sense. Like he was going out of his way to spite what Kirby had drawn.
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>>77553665
It was pretty interesting until the nigga went full feminist
>Ugh Stan Lee is a misogynist when Jack Kirby wanted grrll power
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>>77555021
C'mon this was when Lee was full on Mad Men chauvinist. You can't deny that. Some of the shit he wrote was embarrassing even for the 60's.
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>>77555290
What is so embarrassing aside from all women just being useless prizes and the anti commie propaganda
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>>77555290

>implying Lincoln's mother was useless
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>>77555290
>this is what tumblr believes
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>say a middle aged man in the sixties wrote sexist shit
>FUKEN TUMBLR

That's it folks. Sexism never existed. It was all a ruse cruise.
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I like Kirby, but it's a little tiring how all this young fucktards who have milk under their noses think that they know shit. Lee wasn't an artist, or maybe even a writer, but he did revolutionize the comics. Beside scripting like 10+ comic per month (and each one becoming a hit), and thinking of new ideas, he was also an editor, editor-in-chief, and also worked in other departments.

What kids don't get nowadays is that no matter how good your book is, you have to promote it, hype it, and sell it. Lee was a really good salesman
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>>77555706
pls stop. it's really exhausting.
you want to get triggered, there are better ways than posting on 4chan.
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>>77555601
Underrated fucking post. That issue was great.
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>>77555709
>Lee was a really good salesman

Lee was the Mark Millar of his day, which is the easiest way to explain why some people really didn't like ol' Stan..
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>>77555709
It's hilarious that you think it's "kids" who celebrate Kirby. Celebrating Kirby is exclusively the activity of old fucks.
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>>77555706
>say a middle aged man in the sixties wrote sexist shit
>act like it's some deft criticism instead of dud attempts at banter

Nah, you're right, it's totally illuminating. Sue sure was humiliated that time she namedropped Richards into a quip - it's not like Doom had developed a hatred for Richards that could strip paint off a wall or anything like that.
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>>77555834
The difference is that he still co-created certain characters. Not to mention that he stood up for artists, and ironically, was the one to popularize giving the credits. Before him, only EC really cared about spotlighting the artists. Also he defied comic code with the infamous Spider-Man mini-arc.

>>77555853
I wouldn't say that it's exclusive. And keep in mind that a lot of kids read these old fucks and take it as face value. I know, because I used to be like that as well. It took me years to learn that not everything is black and white.
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>>77555743
sounds like you want a safe space
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>>77555834
I'd say it's more accurate to call Millar Stan Lite.
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>>77555951
I want an interesting discussion. If you want to continue using buzzwords, fine, I'll go. I can watch a movie instead. Gran Torino with Eastwood
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>>77555982
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>>77555709
I like him too, but if he didn't have Stan arguing his corner he'd have been another Fletcher Hanks by 1970. A lot of the guys who made Marvel would have been. Truth is, and they'll all say it about each other and even admit it about themselves in some cases, all of them were weird, slightly creepy, assholes. Kirby was an argumentative prick who didn't know when to back down; it's not surprising that Lee used to have to change things Kirby hadn't turned in according to the script or the discussions they'd had and the direction they'd agreed on, it's surprising that Kirby still had a job after stiffing his writing partner and editor like that time and again.
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>>77558526
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>>77555709
>Beside scripting like 10+ comic per month (and each one becoming a hit),
The latter half of this comment is objectively false.
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>>77560848
Yeah Spider-Man, Avenges, Thor, Fantastic Four were all hits

Hulk and X-Men not so much

Not sure about Daredevil or Strange Tales
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>>77553665
>all Stan Lee did was write words on other people's comics, he never contributed plot direction or came up with the story concepts

This myth will never die. In 1000 years there will be kirbyfags thinking that shit actually fucking happened.
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>>77555706
The problem is people can't just take things for what they were. Is it sexist? Sure but things being sexist or racist or whatever, which was normal for their time period, doesn't change their quality. Birth of a Nation being a glorification of the KKK at a time where the KKK and segregation and the like was normal doesn't stop it from being one of the most important films every made.

The problem with a lot of these "cultural critic" and critical theory types is that they can't judge things for their time and instead have to make modern moral judgements which inevitably leads to the dismissal of it as being not good, problematic and thus something you should avoid, etc.
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>>77561865
Less or more embarrassing than people who think Lee made those comics all by himself?
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>>77561738
Hulk was a hit but his book just didn't sale good but the character like always and up to today fascinates the poplar imagination it just doesn't sell well so Lee saw how teenagers and the college crowd liked Hulk and them added him in an issue of the FF and later Tales to Astonish
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>>77563355
The problem is that the general public thinks Lee did everything and Kirby and Ditko are completely unknown to them whereas in the comics reading community Kirby is arguably more respect at this point. Many fans feel the need to overcompensate for this and hype Kirby up.
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>>77559057
>I like him too, but if he didn't have Stan arguing his corner he'd have been another Fletcher Hanks by 1970. A lot of the guys who made Marvel would have been.

Fucking bullshit. Do you even know anything about Kirby or Hanks? Hanks left comics before the 1940s were over and it was likely his own self-destructive tendencies that led to him being homeless and freezing to death.

Joe Simon and Will Eisner sure as hell didn't end up like Hanks. Kirby was willing to do work neccessary to keep his family fed, so he would've gotten another job elsewhere. Maybe even gotten into the animation industry sooner. He just wouldn't have had the massive fame he got from Marvel, but he sure wouldn't have ended up like Hanks.
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>>77563355
Lee did at least come up with the ideas you can see his pitch proposal and it clearly said what he wanted but he also left out a lot of stuff so Jack had room to be creative. Like for the Thing he just left it as some monster, Kirby did the whole orange rock look and added the elements from his Challengers of the Unknown.

The whole work was very elastic he give and take type of deal where sometimes men tested their boundaries which is normal in any working setting. The Silver Surfer is a prime example, Kirby wanted him to be more of a one off character to resemble and Angel of Death while Lee made him more of a tragic character like Milton's Satan in Paradise Lost. They both need the biblical implications just executed them differently. Lee got the last word not only literally but also he was the company man since his uncle owned it for a time and now he was running it. Give Lee credit for having the brains to push and market is product. Lee is like Disney and Steve Jobs, men who took risks while Kirby was like Wozniak and Ub Iwerks, men with talent and the know how to make imaginations become real but those type do it for the love of their craft not to make and profit so they can't see past their work and into the money signs to properly market the thing. DC could never market Kirby right and all his works got booted. Joe Simon was a lot like Lee in the sense that Kirby did most of the actual laborious art work while he was out with the big fat cats of the publishing world making connections and business. They like Joe cause he came from a good neighborhood with a background in education and he was tall while Kirby was a short rough Jew from the ghetto.

Lee is right when he said he created the property because he assigned the artist to draw out his "vision" of a character… no matter how loose of a description or plot it maybe. Like a movie studio handing out the "right" for a screenwriter to type up a film.
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>>77564143
Lee could have given the property to anyone else and it still would have seen the light of day. Now would it be just as successful?… we don't know but Ditko is right when he said that when Lee passes them an assignment then by the very nature of their work the thing changes and morphs into a different beast. Comics are visual and the product is now at the mercy of the artist. It's a dicey thing. A bad design could hurt the product. I don't agree with Lee scoffing at the idea that is his idea is so good that he could give it to any ol' artist and it still sells. I think it's a marriage of both parties coming together to create a harmonious union. Let's no take way anything from anyone. Lee worked hard to magae Marvel and make sure it was pumping out books and Kirby, Ditko and etc all worked hard to make sure they work would leave a lasting impression at least long enough to make a paycheck.
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>>77564143
You wouldn't consider someone the only creator of a song if he gave a guitarist a list of notes to play with only the very basic ideas of melody prepared.
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>>77564309
depends on that guitarist. is he in a position of authority or his he a studio artist because remember it also has to do with the position of power and what you can negotiate. you're fucked if you're a freelance you have no actual rights. DC didn't have to pay Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster on a legal level, Neal Adams stepped in and he used a moral reason to win

for example another famous who created what instances is Miami Vice. Brandon Tartikoff came up with the order of having "MTV Cops" Anthony Yerkovich creates the show. Tartikoff said he created because he told Yerkovich the basic outline for the show and without him he never would have gotten the idea to make the show it's as if he thought he was the fucking muse for Yerkovich.

Bob Kane got what he did because he dad was a lawyer and he went to Finger after the deal was finalized as a consultant not as an equal collaborator.

Shit this happened a lot in Hollywood. Some guy would come in and pitch an idea but would have his intellectual property protected and all these sharks would steal their idea and screw them out big time like Beverly Hills Cop.

Sometimes you got something and you don't know how to use it right like that dude Bill Gates royally screwed over.
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>>77564625
When people discuss who created what in the comics community we're almost never talking about the legality of the process.
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>>77563196
People don't get mad at "cultural critics" because they don't judge things for what they are. People get mad because they do. Is it sexist? The simple, accurate answer is "yes". Is it a product of its time? Probably, but that doesn't change the fact that it's sexist, and certain people are just acknowledging that aspect of the times for what it is. Things like racism and misogyny didn't suddenly become bad when they went out of style, people just overlooked that they were bad back when they were popular; the cultural trends of the past are a thing, but there's nothing wrong with looking at the past and saying "that's a bad thing to do, we shouldn't do it again".
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>>77555290
Yes I can.
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>>77564625
forgot to mentioned that Will Eisner had ghost artists to produce work for his name brand but will put him up on a pedestal while we demonize Kane I don't know it's weird because Disney and all these old school guys turned their name into huge company brands and that's why they see that they own everything others might have created using their company

>>77565837
and yeah I agree with you there's no rationalizing in the mind of comic industry. there was insane policies in place when he came to who got credit for what. just listen to David Michelinie talk about the creation of Venom at 18:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sBuFsRrLco
I think editors should get more credit in my mind. They influence the story so much for better or worse. Watchmen's ending would have been different without Len Wein's input.
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>>77566575
>but there's nothing wrong with looking at the past and saying "that's a bad thing to do, we shouldn't do it again".

If that was all they did then there wouldn't be a problem with culture critics.
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>>77566844
>forgot to mentioned that Will Eisner had ghost artists to produce work for his name brand but will put him up on a pedestal while we demonize Kane I don't know it's weird because Disney and all these old school guys turned their name into huge company brands and that's why they see that they own everything others might have created using their company

The difference is that Eisner did work on his own on various projects after The Spirit, so it was easy to figure out who did what.

On top of that, Kane doing stuff on his own wasn't as good as Eisner doing stuff on his own or other various cartoonists that eventually had assistants or ghosts.
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>>77555021
They kind of have a point Stan Lee always wrote women the same and always had them pinning and crying about men, worrying about their make up getting smudged and getting the vapors and shit, especially during the 60's.

Kirby made freaking Big Barda and even when he wrote women who were pacifist or non violent he made them vompetent.

Hell just compare the way Stan wrote Sharon to the way Kirby wrote her in his short live Cap run. Stan had her involved in so much romance BS while Kirby made her competent and had her take the Red Skull hostage snd threaten him so he would take her where Steve was.

And you know Kirby still had his women partake in traditional female roles, like Barda was a housewife and she loved being domestic with Scott or how he had Sharon put make up on while getting debriefed but she wasn't annoying about it like Wasp.
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>>77568256
Although yeah I see how Stan just did what was the norm in fiction with female characters back then.
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>>77553665
Well, Kirby's dead. So, Stan wins
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>>77568256
Wasp wasn't annoying, she was cute! She pressed Hank Pym all around because she liked him so much.
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>>77567046
Lol you poor baby
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>>77555918
Not a Millar shill or even much of a fan but almost everything you said about Lee also applies to Millar. He's co-created a ton of OCs and he really looks out for his artists.
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>>77555709
Lee only really gave people a "general idea of a plot" and they had to sort of script it by themselves. If they couldn't, they were pretty much fucked. Saying that he had a hand in the actual creation of the comics is being really really generous

Regardless though, I do think he had an important role to play
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>>77555709
>Beside scripting like 10+ comic per month
Not really something to brag about when your script is just a piece of paper saying "okay Jack, in this month's issue, the X-Men are fighting the Blob. And Magneto shows up for a bit too. Aaaand GO!"
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While Lee's writing on everything that's not Spider-Man is forgettable at best, he did make great strides for creators actually getting credit on their work, which would pave the road for the future rock stars of the comic world like Moore and Miller. Ironic considering how hard he's actually fucked over some of his characters' creators in terms of ownership.
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>>77570424
>Ironic considering how hard he's actually fucked over some of his characters' creators in terms of ownership.

It was the standard practice of the day. I don't think Lee was trying to screw anyone over on purpose. His hands were tied being the one running Marvel. If you hear the old school artists talk about Lee, he always tried to pay everyone on time and give them better deals. Lee basically saved Steranko and Steranko never talked bad about Stan. Lee was a company man through and through. His uncle owned it for awhile and He saw everything belonging to Marvel and not the artist since they were all freelancers. When Lee developed Comix Book with Denis Kitchen, he was brining in top talent from the underground movement into mainstream comics giving guys like Art Spiegelman their first big break. This was a project he was doing away from Marvel so this was his baby and could do whatever he wanted in terms of contracts. He gave all these artist rights to their works and good pay… well, the company guys over at Marvel got pissed and demanded the same deal and because Marvel couldn't handle it they had to cancel Lee's Comix Book.

https://www.darkhorse.com/Books/24-079/The-Best-of-Comix-Book-When-Marvel-Went-Underground-HC

We also have to thank Jim Shooter and Neal Adams for changing the culture for artists to get better deals

>While Lee's writing on everything that's not Spider-Man is forgettable at best
His Silver Surfer stuff is pretty great.
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>>77570381
That's called plotting. Scripting is writing the dialog that goes in the final published comic.
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>>77555290
Thread posts: 50
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