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This is not a troll thread. Im seriously curious why the big

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This is not a troll thread. Im seriously curious why the big two have been making their comics so progressive these days. Why do they keep doing this when it has shown that the audience they are pandering to does not read comics at all??? Is this doing anything for their sales???
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>>77549664
I feel like the only person who literally does not give a shit about this.
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>>77549664
They do it for attention.
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Are you saying comics shouldn't be progressive?


How is this NOT a troll thread?
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Controversy makes sales.

Last decade was killing off characters.
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>>77549664
Comics have always been progressive. You are just an autistic neckbeard
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>>77549736
>comics have always been progressive
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>>77549664
1. Yes it's annoying
2. Comics have always had an element of propaganda to them, whether it was anti-nazi, anti-drug or anti-male.
3. There's serious money in appearing progressive. It's the same reason "Go Green!" and "Eat Local!" and all sorts of other trends have caught on. People are much more likely to buy your product if they think they're doing something "good" by "participating." See: church.
4. There aren't really that many people making the decisions between Marvel and DC, and groups tend to homogenize over time. It's not a big surprise their retreats turn in to an echo chamber.
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>>77549718
advertisement I guess. even if nobody buys the comics, it's still going to make a scene
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>>77549722
kek
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>>77549684

There is another.
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> Why do they keep doing this when it has shown that the audience they are pandering to does not read comics at all??

I thought Gwen and Kamala sold like hotcakes and Whor was more popular than Thor had been in ages?
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>>77549810
This.

Squirrel Girl is also award winning, even with the horrible writting and art.
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>>77549810
Anon, it's just one rich butthurt fan buying the issues so no one else can have them
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>>77549810
was whor's entire run more popular or just the book she was introduced?
because i feel like when a progressive change like that is done its only the first issue gets more popular.
if thats true then they should just make them elseworlds jsut so people dont get all pissy.
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>>77549750
>Thrills of the 21st century.
If they only knew.
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>>77549664
Because the people they are pandering to are the loudest. Only a few rather smart creative people have already realized that these people will never actually be happy, but sadly most people are rushing to appease the beasts.
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>>77549664
How do you dofine progressive and why has it become an insult around here
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>>77549784
>>77549750
>>77549722
I bet these comics go for millions of dollars on the Internet.
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>>77549722
Well that one guy appears to be a respectable negro businessman.
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>>77549664
Yeah, I'd like to see proof that diversity actually sells comics.

It doesn't seem to work for DC and Marvel keeps relaunching everything so it's hard to tell what's actually working and what they just keep spamming over and over again with new number ones to in a bid to get them to catch on (like they do with The Inhumans, for example).
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>>77549664
The audience they have is not growing either. If anything it's shrinking; it's dependent on people who buy multiple titles per week and a larger cohort who buy multiple titles per month, and it's very much at the mercy of these groups in terms of the titles it does put out, because they often just buy whatever's in front of them and feels familiar.

The main problem with this group is their age: they're about 45 or older, they have a lot of free capital, and they're probably going to die or suffer health problems that take away money from their free capital. 8% of them will be diagnosed with heart disease this year; 8% of those who aren't will be diagnosed next year, and so on, and so on. That includes the ones who die of heart attacks, which is a fairly high proportion.

If they were all bringing their kids into comics and their kids were all buying at the same rate their parents do, it would work. The audience would still be increasing faster than it dies off at the top end. But they're not, and they never have. Feasibly they might suffer a market collapse within a few years on health grounds alone.

>>77549718
Yes, that's why people advertise and sell products and services. For attention, and that attention gets them more sales.

If it doesn't work, they're in the same boat as the majority of business ventures and rebrands, but that's no reason not to try.

>>77549684
Nu-uh.

>>77549750
>>77549736
They've certainly been progressive since the 60s at Marvel; anti-Stan anons tend to forget he's the reason comic creators get their names printed on their work, the reason the CCA fell apart, and championed different types of storytelling that otherwise wouldn't have got past the editors at the pitch stage.

>>77549810
Ms Marvel is certainly selling to a solid 30k audience. I sure as shit wouldn't cancel that for another Moon Knight attempt right now.
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>>77549901
It's a favorite insult of the right-wing gutter press, who tend to forget that its antonym is regressive.

Basically, it's used by the kind of people who think paleo is a diet and sewing is something women do, but also that women shouldn't be soldiers because they might see winkies in the shower block and all the gangbangs would mean nothing ever got done.
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Remember back in the 90s when FabNic introduced a biracial disabled superhero on the New Warriors? Or when Night Thrasher had his own solo book? And Generation X had a black AND a latino character?

And, oh god, let's not forget the awfulness of that horrible All New, All Different X-Men and Claremont's horrible reign where he introduced mutants of all sorts of ethnicities and nationalities and filled it with gay subtext or outright text! The horror! The horror of diversity!

Shut the fuck up, nerd, you're late. You're just complaining about the shit that's happening now because you're aware of it, even though the same kind of stuff came around just before and you were likely fine with it because you didn't have anyone to tell you that it was, somehow, a crime against nature for a story to have someone who's not like you in it, or god forbid, headlining it.
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>>77549664
Actually curious about this, gonna play devil's advocate for a moment.

What is the difference between progress and being progrssive?
If they weren't trying to make more broad or radical changes, what would be the alternative? More of the same until it becomes stale and stops selling?

The way I see it, this is mostly an easy out on finding something new to write about. It's something not done as much and not really done well at all so far.
So, many writers want tot try their hand at it while it's fresh. Soon enough, it'll be saturated and just become another character type, right? Then will it stop being "pandering progressiveness"?

Meanwhile, from a business standpoint
>the audience they are pandering to does not read comics at all
I'm almost certain that for every 10 SJW retards that just talk about how great and progressive it is, there's bound to be 1 person among them that actually gets drawn in and becomes a fan.
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>>77550150
>>77550078
To be fair, the "progressives" crying out for the changes are using a lot of the playbook that the Authoritarian Right just love to use.
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>>77550165

The difference is that one's a buzzword conservatives like to use and the other is not.
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>>77549872
She only had 8 issues before it was cancelled for Secret Wars, but all 8 of those issues sold incredibly high. The lowest selling issue still sold higher than the previous runs' highest selling.
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>>77549722
This was actually a very progressive comic. All the creators were black, and the characters were the popular hero archetypes of the time, but black.
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>>77549664
> these days.

Superman started out as somebody who beat the shit outta wifebeaters

Batman went after industrials who shat all over their employers

Captain America is an Irish leftists liberal artist from New York who always stood by his gay and black friends whenever they were in deep shit

Wonder Woman is a moutpiece for a sexual/social reformist movement

Seems like these comics are being returned to their roots, no?
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>>77549903
>He hasn't seen Chasing Amy
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>>77549872
>if thats true then they should just make them elseworlds jsut so people dont get all pissy.
You don't seem to understand, anon. People getting pissy is the GOAL. When people are pissy, they become living shill machines for the product.

Do something that the fans like? No one talks about it. They like it, enjoy it, then proceed to not talk about it with anyone. Do something the "fans" hate? They'll devote every moment of their free time to telling everyone how angry they are about it. Then a bunch of people that otherwise would never give a comic a try will go "i need to see what the fuss is all about" then they read it, leading to sales of at least one issue, and in many cases, getting those people to keep reading because they want to be part of the conversation.

Marvel has gone on record multiple times saying that their sales are ALWAYS higher when the fans are angry, because angry fans mean a controversial story and controversial stories always sell extremely well.
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>>77550347
This.
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>>77549664
>Why do they keep doing this when it has shown that the audience they are pandering to does not read comics at all?
Because the goal isn't to get people that already read comics, it's to get the people that don't to start. And yes, it works. They're businesses. If it didn't work they wouldn't be doing it.

I realise this may come as a surprise to you, but the types of people that you likely consider "tumblr" and "fake fans" or whatever actually are buying these comics, while the people that bitch up and down are mostly the people that pirate almost exclusively and always have regardless of if they liked it or not.
>>
There's always a small bump in sales whenever something changes like Captain America being black now.

It always settles back down to normal sales numbers afterward though.
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>>77550347
>>77550347
>Wonder Woman is a moutpiece for a sexual/social reformist movement
Gonna stop you right there. Wonder Woman was created by a guy with a bdsm and femdom fetish. She was nothing more than his fap fodder.
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>>77550469
The funniest thing is all the arguments against the new Thor.

I thought it was some of the most boring writing I'd seen in a dog's age, but it was outselling Odinson's last run by a mile.
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>>77550150
I think there's a difference between introducing new and interesting characters and straight up making Thor a lady who talks about how she's cool with letting her cancer kill her because she gets to be a superhero for a while.

I mean I don't think there was an Empath or a Skin before they showed up in GenX. I don't think Storm was a white guy who could control the weather before the god of lightning decided someone else was more worthy.

I mean I dunno maybe it was just spending three years of my life watching the tumor in my father's brain slowly kill him while all I could do was change his bedpan and pretend I understood the things that were coming out of his mouth. Maybe that's made me a little oversensitive, so maybe I'm a little more upset with what is ultimately just an extremely banal comic you guys (you know I used to BE one of you guys before you threw me out for not being radical enough) are lapping up for the same reason frigging Lumberjanes made it to 20 issues.

But fuck you anyway because that's different and you goddamn know it.
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>>77550026

>all that sanity

even now there is hope for /co/
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>>77549664
Well, considering the audience they already has just pirates comics instead of buying them anyway, they probably figure they have nothing to lose.

Also, why do you care? At all.
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>>77549664
I remember reading an interview with one of the heads of Archie comics who stated that it's kids who want to see inclusion and progressivness. They aren't pandering to 20 - 30 year old tumblrites, they're pandering to children.
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>>77550678
just because the characters are diverse does not prevent them from being shit. Carol Danvers as captain marvel is and always will be shit, and so is jane thor.

On the flipside, Khamala and Sam Cap both worked out fine. They have good comics and are well liked.
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>>77549664
>why the big two have been making their comics so progressive
There is nothing wrong with that. DC and Marvel have always had their own gross way of dealing with social issue.

I wonder, if internet was around when DC tackled on Maccarthysme, would there be ass pain people on /co/ complaining about how Comic should stray away from that and this isn't mu comic book anymore.

Basically, there is no wrong subject, there is only worng way of telling them.
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>>77550567
Exactly. And it's certainly not selling so well because of quality or even creative team, considering the previous run had the same writer, better quality storytelling, and an equally if not better artist.
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>>77550542

>In an October 25, 1940 interview with the Family Circle magazine, William Moulton Marston discussed the unfulfilled potential of the comic book medium.[10] This article caught the attention of comics publisher Max Gaines, who hired Marston as an educational consultant for National Periodicals and All-American Publications, two of the companies that would merge to form DC Comics.[11] At that time, it was suggested to Marston that he create his own new superhero; Marston's wife Elizabeth suggested to him that it should be a female:[12]

>William Moulton Marston, a psychologist already famous for inventing the polygraph (forerunner to the magic lasso), struck upon an idea for a new kind of superhero, one who would triumph not with fists or firepower, but with love. "Fine," said Elizabeth. "But make her a woman."

>Given the go-ahead, Marston developed Wonder Woman with Elizabeth, whom Marston believed to be a model of that era's unconventional, liberated woman.[12] Marston was also inspired by Olive Byrne, who lived with the couple in a polyamorous relationship.[13] Both women greatly influenced the character's creation.[12]

You're being incredibly reductive.
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>>77550723
What's the difference?
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>>77550678

I disagree with you, but sorry for what happened to your dad. That sucks.
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>>77549664
Controversy is free publicity, so they change characters just to create controversy over it. Then they change it back once the controversy dies down and the sales start to bomb a few months later because the comic isn't good.
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>>77550730
The only thing wrong with Khamala is that she has yet to get a villain that really draws me in.

I miss when Carol was a boozy right winger but god knows that wouldn't sell in this environment.

My only real issue is with Jane Thor; I could've been sold on the concept with a better writer, but we got who we got.
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>>77549891
I still can't believe that THE Ben Garrison actually did this one without any /pol/ edits. It's really a perfect representation of the current college protests
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>>77550833
>because the comic isn't good
>implying quality has much of any bearing on sales
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>>77549664
>the big two make their comics more progressive
venture bros. isn't progressive?
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>>77549664
You don't catch a fish without worms, Anon. If they want to expand their comic market, they have to make comics that will actually appeal to a wider demographic. Of course if you start making comics to appeal to a group which is not traditionally a part of your audience, you're going to have low sales on that book compared to your other established books, until it gains enough of the demographic you're targeting.

The alternative is to keep target that one dwindling demographic which is a losing game in the long run.
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>>77549664
>This is gold
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>>77550972

Bad argument, m8. The new comic book business model is to tap into and amalgamate 70 years worth of comic book stories to turn into television and film plots. Comics today are still being read by the same insular group; the Big Two's revenues are increasing because they're turning their A-grade material into entertainment for non-comic readers to consume, not because their demographic of comic readers are expanding all that much. Suffice it to say that most comic books today are not A-grade runs (as was true for all of comic book history,) and as such will necessarily be discarded by pop culture. In a way this means the people complaining about muh progressiveness win, because most of the worst progressive tripe is printed in D-grade runs to begin with.

To be sure, exposure from other media will draw people into comics, but people severely overestimate how strong that draw is. Comics are a niche hobby; high prices and uneven availability of product make it difficult for people to get into it.
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ITT: Retards fighting like retards

Comics (At least from the 60s) has always been left leaning in the sense of tolerence and not starting stupid race wars and blah blah. It's only been this decade where they're actually trying to advertise on "HEY LOOK! AREN'T STRAIGHT MEN SO SILLY AHAHAHAHA SMALL COCKS" and all that shit.

I might be a little bias since I'm more sexist than racist, but I will agree, women being badass in comics is cringeworthy as fuck.
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>>77550542
I'm actually going to stop you right there because you're a retard talking utter bullshit.
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>>77550251
There is a thin line between radical and reactionary.
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>>77549664
How do you prove that they are targeting an audience that doesn't exist? Your statement is just as unsubstantiated as saying that the pandering is good for sales.
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>>77549684
yeah i don't get why it matters. really the problem is comic story lines from the big two are bad.

i mean Secret Wars isn't bad because of tumblr, it's just bad. Same with all this Inhuman garbage.

Image is probably going to be the company that survives longer than the Big 2.
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>>77551339

as was pointed out earlier, the audience clearly does exist, at least for some of the biggest progressive "offenders"

also Archie cleans up every month and it's been shoving more and more liberalism in with every issue
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>>77549664
>Not pandering to white male rejects
>Therefore not pandering to the profitable majority

That's how retarded you sound right now.
>>
>why the big two have been making their comics so progressive these days
>these days
How much of a fucking newfag are you? Holy shit. Maybe this is just not your medium pal. Comics have always been more left leaning and progressive for their days.
>>
>>77550542
Her comics used to be full of
>SCIENCE says women are superior to men, also everybody would be happier if men just let their women play BDSM-Vore games with them, like they do on Paradise Island
back then, Anon.

It's a step removed from something like Tarot that's born from the same general attitude and it's two steps removed from something like Cavewoman that's just plain NOTwank fooder.
>>
>>77549664
Some people are actually of the opinion that having a more diverse cast makes things more interesting. You can only read so many "White guy struggles with getting laid" stories
>>
>>77550985
Superman's like
>nope, my superpowers include immunity to jungle fever
in that story.
>>
>>77549945

Marvel has no idea what to do to increase sales, other than events. They tried changing things to be more like the movies when X-Men and Spider-man came out, and that didn't work - yet they still try that a bit, because they have no idea what to do to increase sales, other than events.
>>
>>77552566

This.

I also wanna say don't discount the writers; there's a new generation of comic writers who may not be interested in doing the same old same old. Also, they live in a diverse environment and it reflects in their writing. Like why WOULD every other character be white, straight and male. There are tons of those characters already.

And I realize that writers can only do what editorial lets them, but people like idk Brenden Fletcher, Steve Orlando, G. Willow Wilson and so on are pitching these non-generic ideas and obviously it takes because it's something new.

I think comic readership is small or shrinking regardless. All the people I know who have boners for more diversity do buy these comics, but it's not a giant market anyway.

And haven't sales actually improved compared to a couple years ago? Thought I'd heard that.
>>
>>77552566
There's a difference between having a diverse cast and taking the mantles and names from white male characters and giving them to non-white male characters and saying that's diversity. Not to mention the god-awful ham-fisted political commentary regarding bullshit like feminism.
>>
>>77552566
>>77554577
But making a character a different color is the easiest way to change something.
>>
>>77554668

Yeah, but that's not all that people are doing. There are also more diverse casts springing up in general. (Gotham Academy, for example.) It's also much easier to do, for example, non-straight characters than it used to be, so people do it, and perhaps they always wanted to do characters like that.

(I also don't really know why people are bothered by racebends, to be honest. As long as the writing's good, it's fine.)
>>
>>77550469
>>77550711
This is the correct answer right here. If you fags weren't just stealing all your comics you'd be a relevant demographic, which you've now ironically pulled yourselves out of, meaning that you can now only steal shit the paying customers -- douchey "geek" girls -- like.

If you liked it the way it was, you should've paid for it.
>>
>>77549664
what has DC done that's progressive?

most of their books are pretty much the same
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>>77551228
Women being harass in comics is cringeworthy because it genuinely is. They focus so much on "IM TUFF" that it really ruins it.
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>>77555809
*Badass not harass
Fucking auto correct
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>>77549891
jesus I can feel the fedora tipping from here.

Holy fucking butthurt cartoonist.
>>
>>77549664
I can't believe /co/ will still deny the pandering when we have not one, not two, but THREE Proud WoC Captain Americas, two of them lesbians.
The problem with most of these progressive gender/race bends (and don't start with this "legacy character" bullshit, their are bends) is that they are boring one note characters that the wroters only created to tackle one issue and nothing else.
Miles is a boring character that could have been cool if Bendis hadn't chicken out, now he is just PoC SpiderMan in a world 99 already exists.
Kamala is equally boring but "muh kawaii brown wifu ^-^~ " gets a free pass
And Bobby being gay is just the most retarded way I've ever seen someone go about a coming out subplot.
And that's not even getting into the absolutely insane flood of lesbian characters that are happening in both DC and Marvel, were apparently putting two hot girls making out on a book is a civil rights achievement worthy of front page articles (on Pop Culture/Geek blogs who's writers don't actually read comics, but still)

If you honestly want to pander to woman just make more shoujo manga rip offs like BatGirl.
>>
>>77555877
>he doesn't recognize known White Power proponent and KKK leader Ben "Going Rambo on Sambo" Garrison.
>>
Man reading through this thread has made me realize how bad this place has gotten. Fucking /co/mblr man.

None of this shit should matter. Only good storytelling should.
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>>77550078
>but also that women shouldn't be soldiers
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>>77549664
You got any proof progressive titles don't sell?

Because I see a lot more normies and people who wouldn't normally pick up comics buying the books.

To answer your question though, its because appealing to the same audience year in, year out is a shit business model that leaves no room for comics to grow.
>>
>>77549684
I give a shit about it but I also don't care about it if you catch my drift. I want more 'progression', or rather I call it representation. But I also don't care if there isn't any. Just a nice bonus.
>>
>>77549664
these changes have been extremely successful for marvel! if it wasn't, why would they keep doing it year after year? #BTFO amirite???
>>
>>77549664
Progressive types and those generally supportive of progressive things read their comics. I know it feels like they fostered a singular culture by keeping their comics in certain stores, but it's varied.
>>
>>77556646
Unbeatable Squirrel Girl sells like shit, Midnighter sells mediocre (Fuck DC for merging wildstorm into DCU where he could have had a solo selling like dogshit and not have to worry). ANGR got canned.
Ms. Marvel is literally the only one that sells well on its own without having the help of "Avengers" or Spider/Bat in its title.
>>
>>77558615
Midnighter is hardly pandering. Just because they have a book with a gay character doesn't mean it's pandering.
Even if it was pandering, DC doesn't know how to sell diversity. They only get negative press.
>>
>>77549664

You stupid fuck

Progressive comics isn't supposed to be just for the black guy, or just for the gay, or the woman, or whatever

It's for everybody
>>
>>77559168
What if I don't identify as any of those :^)
>>
>>77549784
What's a nubian?
>>
>>77559298
Shut the fuck up.
>>
>>77554900
In general the writing on racebends tends to be incredibly lazy as the only people interested in doing it so far have been morons like Bendis who have a literal fetish for minorities (see Miles Morales, black spiderman, also a mutant. Can you think of any details for him aside from that? I can't, because he doesn't have any. Oh remember that time he made Iceman gay, and not present day bobby but past bobby raising some serious fucking questions about continuity)

Racebends can work, as can Gender, and Sexualitybends. But people who pull that shit by and large are lazy untalented morons so it comes off as complete garbage. (see female thor which was blatant pandering and at times became insulting. No one's gonna remember "Jane Foster, Dying cancer patient and usurper of Thor's very name" favorably)

Kamala Works, Jamie Reyes works, dozens of Race Bended legacy characters work but by and large comic writers are low quality hacks so the handful of good racebended characters are outnumbered by cringey wastes of time.
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