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> That kind of goes into, sort of, the fundamental thing

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>

That kind of goes into, sort of, the fundamental thing that we’re getting out of the genre, which is our heroic image of ourselves. You know, it’s very much a power fantasy, it’s very much a male power fantasy, it’s very much a white power fantasy.
>

So if I write, as I have many times, a story where Daredevil, who doesn’t have powers, gets the drop on Thor, who has unbelievable powers, people go Oh, that was so cool! Daredevil was so clever! If I have Black Panther do the same thing That’s impossible! It’s like, yeah, it’s impossible with Daredevil too, man. It’s like, I write Batman all the time, in Justice League, where he’s hanging out with seven guys who, by any logic, should be able to you know, eat his lunch without even working up a sweat. And he’s constantly outmaneuvering them, and outfighting them and out-thinking them, and we think Batman is so cool! But when black characters do much less, relative to where their positions are it makes the readership uncomfortable, because they’re not used to seeing it.
-t Dwayne McDuffie

Is he right /co/?
>>
He's sort of right, people get mad about it because they think they're only making the character win because they're black. Which is retarded because Panther has been consistently portrayed as just Marvel Batman for years.

You really just can't win with black characters. If you make a totally original character nobody gives a shit (as is with basically all new characters) like Hardware and Icon, no matter how good they are. If you make a legacy character people will bitch and say they should go get their own identity instead of "stealing" one of "theirs". And obviously we all know the reaction to racelifting, even when it's not the main version of the character and his race has nothing to do with him.

That's why THE best black characters were made in a time between PC crazes, as legacy characters to heroes no one fucking cares about. Jakeem Thunder, Shilo Norman, Manhattan Guardian, and so on. You have both characters that address their blackness as a central theme and ones where their blackness is irrelevant to their story.

Dwayne was the only one who understood how to do good black characters that can work as role models withoutbeing fucking annoying. He's the hero we needed and we killed him.
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>>77501168
/CO/ BTFO
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>>77501168
The thing with Silver Surfer and Black Panther was that there was a distinct artist error where the armlock appears to be hurting Norrin, which is just bs. The original script had Surfer be annoyed, as in "is this mugga serious, is he really trying to make me go down with an armlock when
I am one with the power cosmic ?"
>>
Character jobbing threads are always filled with single pages taken out of context just as many times as there are real examples.
Sometimes it even works in reverse, like that page where Spider-Man just lets the punisher hit him to no effect, ignoring the next page is the punisher beating him.
Skin color has just about nothing to do with "muh power levels."
>>
>yfw the only person who knew how to write minority characters is dead
>In a time when everyone wants to push minority characters
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>>77501168
>thinks they're criticizing the character because black
>thinks writer made the character win because black
So both sides are angry at what they assume the other side is doing? This is why my brain turns off to this kind of shit. People complain ALL THE TIME about Batgod and UNBEATABLE Squirrel Girl. People complain about how boring Superman is because he's "too strong."

We have to deal with "Does hulk have a higher power level than Vegeta?" threads all the time. Literally every time Thanos or Darkseid is in a story we've gotta discuss jobbing. No one complains about Dr. Doom? Come on.
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>>77501464
damn heart attacks
>>
>>77501168
>If I have Black Panther do the same thing That’s impossible
Black Panthor would be pretty cool, but isn't T'Challa kind of an asshole?
>>
>>77501763
Oh so every brother is an asshole now??
Fuck you white boy.
>>
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>>77501168
Yeah, that's bullshit. Surfer was clearly struggling, McDuffie is just covering his ass from the nerd rage.

I greatly doubt people wouldn't think it was retarded if Daredevil started outmuscling Thor. Batman is another deal entirely given that his powers are a meme, but even then plenty of people bitch about it. Look at how many Superfags whine about TDKR being overrated just because they hate that fight that Batman didn't even win.
>>
>>77501456
The next page is the Punisher beating Spider-Man with a grenade, the point that Punisher can't hurt Spider-Man with his fists doesn't change.

>>77501613
>>77501464
Blame whitey and his high fructose corn syrup
>>
>>77501873
But muh racism #blacklivesmatter
And sure is /co/mblr in here
Also I find it funny that just because he died everyone had to say how great it was his awful All Star Superman.
And don't even get me started on how fucking bad was JL: Doom
>>
>>77501873
>Surfer was clearly struggling
You can blame that one on the artist, genius.
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>>77501464
And it's indirectly our fault. We did this to ourselves. We should have stopped Rich Johnston when we had the chance.
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>>77501940
What about the "ahhh!" and ellipses in "un...hand me..."
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>>77501873
Readin comprehenssion, do you have it? He was pretending. You don't even post the socnd page.

It's like you enjoy being an idiot.
>>
>>77501362

I agree with him as far as Batman goes but not as far as anything else.people tend to bitch.

The real crime is that Milestone is that this man is no longer around to keep the Milestone character safe from hacks like Hudlin...
>>
Only kinda.
>>
>>77502004
Ghost of McDuffie, please leave
>>
>>77501940
>>77501984
How about, Silver Surfer was trying to get info from Black Panther and was trying to make him believe he had the upper hand?

I mean, what, is there a canon I don't know that say Silver Surfer is bad at acting?
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>>77502024
Not before you post the second page.
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>>77501940
That's the point. McDuffie is full of shit and should blame the artist as well not "muh racism."
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>>77502044
Don't make me bring out the job application
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>>77502050
>McDuffie is full of shit
How so?
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>>77502030
No kidding. "being surprised someone got you in a hold" is not the same thing as "GOT BTFO!"

Surfer's surprise could be anything from "ouch that kinda hurts" to "didn't expect THAT shit."
>>
>>77501362
Fucking Panther avengers debut is about him getting a drop over the entire team.
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>>77502074
he ate a large meal
>>
>>77502074
>>77502074
I just said. He should BLAME THE ARTIST for improperly conveying the scene he wrote and not QQ omgwhiteerdsareracist.
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>>77502107
>Fucking Panther avengers debut
You mean his FF debut
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>>77502107
So is his Fantastic Four debut, as I recall
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>>77501406
How so? /co/ is pretty indiscriminate in their job bitching. Like the people who called bullshit on Iron Man developing tech to work Spidey or Punisher shooting Ultimate Pete.....really most seem to be bitching that they doing Spider-man wrong.
>>
>>77502094
>Surfer's surprise could be anything from "ouch that kinda hurts" to "didn't expect THAT shit."
>ouch that kinda hurts
yeah no
>>
>>77501168
anyone have the next page where SS explains his actions?
>>
>>77502094
>>77502124
How difficult is it to understand that Siver Sufer is pretending to be caught so that BP spill the bean?

The artist did nothing wrong, he made Silver Surfer act convincing.

How can you not get it?
>>
>>77502094
>"being surprised someone got you in a hold"
Except he was not surprised, he was pretending to have the lower hand.
>>
>>77501543
>>thinks writer made the character win because black
Well this is racist and normal to be called out, especially when all you needed to do to get the fact straight was to read the next page.
>>
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>>77502273
1. It's bad storytelling when the audience has to decided whether the writer is being bad and having characters job or the characters are just acting sneaky.

2. So he writes Black Panther as an idiot who think they can hold Silver Surfer.

3. It's also stupid if DD can get the drop on Thor. As he said he just thinks it's kewl to have guys who are weaker get the drop on powerhouses so he contrives stupid scenarios where this occurs. Then when people call it out as being stupid because the lack the clairvoyant ability to know the writers intention, said writer calls "muh racism."

Sorry, stupidity goes beyond skin color.
>>
>>77502400
>1. It's bad storytelling when the audience has to decided whether the writer is being bad and having characters job or the characters are just acting sneaky.
Except they don't have to. The whole truth is revealed on the very next page.
>2. So he writes Black Panther as an idiot who think they can hold Silver Surfer.
So, no super heroes have ever presumed of their own strength? One minute BP is critiqued for being too OP, the next one, he is being critiqued for making a mistake?
>he contrives stupid scenarios where this occurs. Then when people call it out as being stupid because the lack the clairvoyant ability to know the writers intention, said writer calls "muh racism."
He made a comic where the events that happened actually make sense and RIGHTFULLY call out people for being unable to read the next page.

The amount of people who explicitly complained that he made BP too OP "because he is black" deserve to be called racists. They have no excuse, when they jump so quick on their highhorses fo basically no valid reason.
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>>77502563
BP thinking he can judo the silver surfer is him being uncharacteristically dumb.
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>>77502968
He worked on an assumption.
>>
>>77501984
Imagine those lines being said with Surfer having a deadpan expression, or a mildly annoyed one, and Duffie's explanation makes sense.

Also nobody ever posts the second page, which would confirm or deny what Duffie is saying is true, but if they did we wouldn't have 580 replies 87 images omitted and that's no fun.
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>>77503395
>Imagine those lines being said with Surfer having a deadpan expression, or a mildly annoyed one
Why, though? I mean, if he wante to convince BP he has the upper hand, he might as well be convincing
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>>77503427
You don't need to put on an "oh no I'm getting fuckin rekt" grimace when BP can't even see your face because he's got you from behind. Unless he likes hamming it up, but I don't know anything about Silver Surfer or Black Panther just like everyone else that bitches about this page
>>
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>>77503459
>You don't need to put on an "oh no I'm getting fuckin rekt" grimace when BP can't even see your face because
But what about the Process, anon? What about the process? for to play a role, you need to become that role.

Seriously, though. If you try acting, it's hard to only partially act on purpose? Ever seen Voice acotrs work? Their face will never be seen, and yet, they always go full facial expression when they do their role. Not because they are some fancy actors, but because it's the most natural thing to do.
>>
>>77503459
>>77503505
Also, in a meta, that scene needed to fool the readers to. That worked way beyond expectation.
>>
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What precious piece of information is Superman trying to get out of Sasuke?
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>>77501168
>people go

Assumption he does not bother to back up with logic or reason or simple facts

It is not that he is wrong or right, it is his argumentation being piss poor that makes him look like a fool.
>>
>>77503544
Why kids love cinnamon toast crunch
>>
Someone would actually debate the cosmic god being that can go toe to toe with gods, Hulk, and entire teams of heroes.

Versus black Batman without the prep time plot armor?
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>>77503582
Uh? I have seen plenty react like that most of the time. It's not an assumption, it's something that has actually happened. Same with the butthurt that followed that BP-SS page.
>>
>>77503594
No one is. Silver Surfer was rusing the whole time.
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>>77503611
>I have seen

Goody for you!

It means absolutely nothing to me or anyone who is not you.
>>
>>77503681
Anecdotal evidence is fine so long as they're on the Right side of issues
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>>77503681
Yeah, and this is why the term "batgod" was never coined.
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>>77503720
We are talking about mass tendencies, here.
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>>77503740
Batgod was coined specifically to refer to Morrison's JLA's Batman, where Morrison turns prep time into a genuine superpower.

Then a lot of people "have seen" others use it and started to parrot it to seem hip with comics.
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>>77503624
>>
>>77503788
It existed way before Morrison.

Not to mention all the people saying Batman can beat Superman. You have to have lived under a rock since internet exist to not have seen it.

He is right you, know. people tend to cheer when the underdog win.
>>
>>77503829
>It existed way before Morrison.

No, it did not.
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>>77503826
Isn't it more "look how in pain I am".
"I'll come save you, Silver Sufer"
"Moron, I was only pretending, now you have scared the cat away"?
>>
>This happens and these people think this but these people also think that but those other people think those when they should think more like this and that and those and them

I don't know if he's right. I just see him referring to different people and what they think about things when I've never heard of any of these people in the first place.
>>
>>77503829
>all the people saying

Again, who gives a fuck what people say?
Again, you cannot discuss the thing and have rely on assumptions you cannot fucking back up with logic and reason that are most importantly NOT about comics, but about people reading them.
>>
>>77503849
Yes it did.
>>
>>77503876
No it didn't.
>>
>>77503681
>>77503720

>On /co/ pretending not to have ever seen a bunch of /pol/-tier posts denouncing whenever a darkie does something as TUMBLR PROPAGANDA

Anon pls. That's like claiming to be on tumblr and never seeing blind praise of anything deemed "inclusive".
>>
>>77503868
>Again, who gives a fuck what people say?
Well, I dunno, when someone react to the critique made to your work, maybe?

Or are you saying creators should not care about critiques and ignore them completely?

And Duwey is making zero assumption, there, just basic, objective observations of generale tendencies. The only people who have made assumption is those who didn't bother to read the next page.
>>
>>77503896
Yes it did.
>>
>>77503868
The fuck are you talking about? You want people to build a portfolio full of forum/newsgroup posts with cited authors and a bibliography before talking to you about Bat preptime abuse?
>>
>>77501873
>>77501940
>>77501984
>>77502004
>>77502030
Silver Surfer is just a really good actor.
>>
>>77503956
It's not even about bat prep-time abuse, what he want is Proof, that there are people who enjoy bat-prep time in the first place.
>>
>>77501763
T'Challa's a sweetheart, it's his subjects and subordinates that are the assholes.
>>
>>77503505
>Their face will never be seen, and yet, they always go full facial expression when they do their role.
Sometimes, they're even given props and shit. So you've got this one idiot sort of waving around a fake sword all heroic looking while making a hammy speech, it's beautiful.
>>
So is someone going to post the 2nd page or what
>>
WILL SOMEONE MOTHER FUCKING POST THAT FUCKING DAMNED NEXT PAGE OR WHAT?
>>
>>77503990
I like it within the context of his own series. Batman meets a new bad guy, gets wrecked, used his deductive prowess to think up a way to counter act the new bad guys gimmick, wrecks him.
It's a very satisfying formula.

I also like what it says about Bruce's character. That at the heart of things, he's a bit of a worrywart, who hates going into a situation unprepared because you get wrecked when you're not prepared, in his mind.

Best example I can think of is the second JLA/JSA Thanksgiving Special, the one where almost nothing goes wrong and it drives Bruce up a damn wall.
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>>77504191
Fuck, that was a nice post. Seriously. I am so used to get conflictual on this board that when I see an actual nice reply to my post I agree with, It kind of take me by surprise and I am not sure how to react. Anyway, thanks for you post
>, the one where almost nothing goes wrong and it drives Bruce up a damn wall.
I am aware of the irony.
>>
>>77504301
huh?
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