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White Lantern and the Life Equation

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Morrison's Multiverse Map has kicked my autism about harmonizing the concepts of the DC Universe into overdrive. I'm more curious than ever how the Green Lantern mythos and Johns' emotional spectrum work with Kirby's Source and Anti-Life Equation from the Fourth World cycle.

I stopped reading the GL stuff during the Relic storyline, but I hear that Rayner pierced the Source Wall and found the Life Equation, which he used to recharge the emotional reservoir that is the origin of all the emotional spectrum energies, which were revealed to originate beyond the wall.

I know that Kirby didn't create the "Life Equation," and that that's a relatively recent addition to his mythos. What connections were drawn in the Green Lantern series, if any, between the White Light of Life, and the Life Equation?

How about the Anti-Life Equation? The original Kirby stuff shows it as breaking free will, which would make me thing that it stands in opposition to the Green energy, However, it being Anti-LIFE makes me wonder if it is instead in direct contrast to the White Energy. An issue of the Forever People seems to equate the two, as "if you don't have free will, you're not truly alive."

Let's not even get into how the Endless fits into all this...
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>>65079883
1) Don't worry about the Endless. They haven't even been shown in the New 52 yet.

2) Kyle learning the Life Equation probably had little to do with the White Entiy from what I can understand. In fact with this Forever People/Green Lantern crossover happening pretty soon, things have been hintng that Kyle's something beyond human. Before entering the Source Wall, he was chosen to take the Emotional Entities to there by the entities themselves, knowing he could handle their combined presences, and they were proven right. With the exception of Nekron and Parallax, he was able to contain all of them within himself with relatively little harm to his psyche. the entities recharged the well, using Kyle as a vessel.

3) After exiting the Source Wall, Kyle showed massive increases in his abilities, going so far as one-shotting creatures designed to kill gods, killing Mogo's brother Raga, and recreating the Oblivion entity before later destroying it. The new Guardians of the Universe said that Kyle is much more than anything they imagined.

4) considering all this, and the visions expressed in Forever People, it's highly likely that Kyle may actually be a New God himself.
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>>65079883
We'll get more in Godhead
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>>65079883
Who's that fucker in Orange?
Thats not Larfleeze
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>>65079883
>recent edition to the mythos
I thought Starlin came up with it in Cosmic Odyssey.
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>>65080118
>Endless
Are on the Multiversity Map, so they have to fit in somewhere.

>it's highly likely that Kyle may actually be a New God himself.
UGH.
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>>65080169
They're all Kyle. When he was in his training arc to get the white light he changed spectrum colors and slightly altered his costume every time.
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>>65080169
Each of the faces are what Kyle looks like when he harnessed that specific emotion. Rage and Compassion look the coolest.
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>>65080172
He did. It's far from new, but Kirby didn't write it.

>>65080174
>Endless
Not saying they're not important, just that they've had nothing to do with anything yet.

>UGH
If it does happen, I'd actually be kind of glad to see it. It answers the question as to why he's an on again/off again Phoenix-level threat. Also having him have New god adventures seems like it'd be fun.
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>>65080289
I'll be surprised of the Endless don't show up in Multiversity.
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>>65080333
I'm not expecting anything except in the guidebook and maybe the final issue where Morrison said EVERY CHARACTER is appearing.
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>>65080172

I don't think the Life Equation was in cosmic odyssey.

The Anti-Life Entity definitely was, but not the Life Equation.
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>>65080542
The only Life Equation I can find on a short google search is from Seven Soldiers.
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>>65080542
According to the wikis, Life Equation first is mentioned in Martian Manhunter vol 2 33
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>>65080602
That would mean Ostrander came up with it.
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>>65080118
I'm surprised Volthoom could actually taken down Kyle himself.
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>>65080118
>1) Don't worry about the Endless. They haven't even been shown in the New 52 yet.

Yeah, I know they haven't been shown in the DCnU, but I like them being part of the DC Universe. Seems kind of hard to blend them with the entities, though. I mean, the description of both the entities and the Endless seems to be "necessary beings that are synonymous with and existed as soon as their very concepts entered the universe."

>Kyle learning the Life Equation probably had little to do with the White Entiy from what I can understand.

So, did the White Energy push him toward godhood, or was he selected to master the White light because he already had the capacity within him?

>>65080333
Yeah, Gaiman and Morrison seem to be friends, so Gaiman would probably allow Morrison to use his concepts if he asked.

As for harmonizing this stuff, I once posted this pet theory I have that Nekron was a minor minion of Death who became corrupt and began to feel that death is the natural order of the universe and that life is an abomination. Having some of Death's power is why he rules the dimension of the Dead Zone and had enough control over death that he could do Blackest Night. But he isn't the ultimate entity of death in the DCU.

My other theory is that the Anti-Life Equation is sort of a negative to the emotional spectrum. But, unlike the black energy, which promotes death, Anti-Life isn't death, but the cheapening of life. It doesn't kill you, but renders you will-less and a shell of your former self. Perhaps it is worse than death.
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>I know that Kirby didn't create the "Life Equation,"

Didn't Kirby say that freedom of choice was the life equation back in New Gods #1?
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>>65080602
>>65080650

I'm guessing several writers have said to themselves "if there is an Anti-Life Equation, maybe there's a Life Equation, too!" independently of each other. I remember that Ostrander MM issue where J'onn meets Darkseid, but can't remember much about the Life Equation being mentioned. I've heard about the Equation being in Seven Soldiers. I think I've heard about it being in JLA: Rock of Ages, as well.
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>>65080721

No, Highfather said that
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>>65080721
That's the first mention of the Life Equation; writers in the New Gods franchise have a habit of taking previous concepts and literalizing them. Kirby's anti-life equation becomes a literal giant cosmic satan under Starlin; Darkseid's horror of freedom, the death-that-is-life (Ostrander did that nicely) gets literalized by Morrison as the Omega Sanction.
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>>65080690
The Entities and the Endless don't really conflict very badly, though. And didn't all the Entities but the White Entity die or something?
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Why even have a greedy lantern if he's not going to be green? Just find a different feeling.
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>>65080690
>So, did the White Energy push him toward godhood, or was he selected to master the White light because he already had the capacity within him?

It is highly likely, and possibly even a direct case. Gods themselves have fused with the Source Wall without some form of shielding.
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>>65080818
Green was kind of taken already
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>>65080813
All of the Entities, minus Parallax and Nekron, went back to the emotional reservers behind the source wall.

Which was a fucking stupid story, which in my mind made no sense with how Johns had set up the emotional spectrum.
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>>65080813
They are all dead except Parallax
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>>65080886
And Nekron.
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>>65080813
>>65080791
>>65080738
I do know that Highfather and Miracle have said that it's the combined will of the universe, whereas anti-life is the will of one over the universe.
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>>65080909
Oh yeah forgot about him

Hal should have stayed a black lantern for a while and made Nekron his bitch or something
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>>65080973
I would have liked that, actually.
John: Green Lantern
Kyle: New Guardians
Guy: Red Lanterns
Hal: Black Lantern (Or to go full COMICS LOOK AT ME mode, Hal Jordan: Master of Death)
Simon: Green Lantern Corps where it has him training with other Green Lantern newbies and hanging out with Soranik and Sodam.
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>>65080886
>>65080909
Still don't get how leaving these two out won't still cause the end of the universe.
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>>65081060
Nekron needs a host and Black Hand is dead. Parallax is Sinestro's bitch.
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>>65081060
The other entities refilled the reservoir enough to last billions more years, missing two isn't a big deal
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>>65081099
>>65081129
But the yellow light isn't going to be refilled.
Or are all of the colors the same?
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>>65080118
>Kyle as a New God

I am really okay with this concept.
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>>65081045
That would have been pretty sweet
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>>65080813
Yeah, I guess the only ones that really conflict are Nekron and Death. But my little "Nekron isn't truly Death" thing sort of gets around that (and is supported by Death's cameo in that Cornell Luthor Action Comics run).

>>65080914
>I do know that Highfather and Miracle have said that it's the combined will of the universe, whereas anti-life is the will of one over the universe.

Hmm. So, Anti-Life is willpower concentrated and oppressive, while Life is willpower spread out. They could do something with that.

In fact, during the Third Army storyline, when the Guardians were trying to wipe out free will in the universe and make every being an extension of their minds, the whole time I could only think "that sounds awfully Anti-Life." Kind of wondered if this would piss off Darkseid because he wanted to assimilate all will in the universe himself.
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>>65081147
I THINK they all come from the same source

I dunno I guess I need to reread it, I sorta skimmed it the first time
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>>65081177
They can always come together as one.
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>>65081177
>But my little "Nekron isn't truly Death" thing sort of gets around that (and is supported by Death's cameo in that Cornell Luthor Action Comics run).
Yeah, I would say that's confirmed, in part by Cornell and in part by Gaiman disagreeing with that Captain Atom story.
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>>65079883
Alright negger listen here:

The life equation is simply the action to take choices, a practical way to say freedom, that's why it's so hard to find someone who can control minds, people like the Psychi Pirate an the Martian Manhunter influence minds, but the choices are still taken; The Anti-Life enables you, the user, to control completely the minds of people:

As for the Lanterns, it all comes down to a Promethean analogy, Metron, a New God, gave fire to Anthro, and the fire has been a motif througout the entire DC Multiverse to represent change, technology and even magic, Alan Scott's constructs burn with a green flame, the miracle machine needed Element X to be used, which is a fire that is essentially, the fire of the gods, which is a white flame, similar to the Entity's white flame:

So we have a direct relation between fire of the gods and the color white, and considering light is the combination of all colors, and colors are linked to emotions. Gods may be the embodiment of emotional balance itself, if you manage to control all your emotions and embrace them, you elevate yourself to a higher being, possibly on a New Gods scale.

As for the Endless, they have their realm in the Dream, I'd say that they choose to remain observers to things happening, so they exist in their own contained world.
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>>65081323
>Using shit ignored and replaced to explain things in the New 52.
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>>65081177
>Kind of wondered if this would piss off Darkseid because he wanted to assimilate all will in the universe himself.

It may well have. Otherwise why else would he be threatening the colored corps?
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>>65081376
The Final Crisis still happened everywhere, Captain Carrot remembers it, it's just that the people on some universes don't know that Flashpoint ocurred.
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>>65081419
>Otherwise why else would he be threatening the colored corps?
But he's not.
Highfather is.
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>>65081427
>Captain Carrot remembers it,
Unless he's just remembering the New Teen Titans preview of his book where he meets Earth-1 Superman.

But Final Crisis happened somehow, Darkseid still Omega'd Batman and Nix became the last monitor.
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>>65081427
I'm talking about Alan Scott and the green glame.
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>>65081436

Yeah Darkseid's gameplan is his evil Superman, where Highfather's gameplan is to assemble all 7 of the power rings in order to create some kind of Infinity Cube.
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>>65081495
So basically he wants to turn Kyle into his cumslave?
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>>65081483
His constructs still look flamey, he's just powered by a different source now
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>>65081483
Alan Scott's constructs still glow with a green flame, when he got possessed by the green, he burned green.
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>>65081511

That's our Highfather!
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>>65081495
>assemble Infinity Cube to defeat Darkseid
That's just great.
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>>65081545
>>65081511
>Baramode Highfather using Kyle as a cocksleeve.

All Highfather would have to do is say that he loves Kyle for this to happen. That kid's easier than Dick Grayson.

W-what have you done to me, /co/?
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>>65081323
>As for the Lanterns, it all comes down to a Promethean analogy, Metron, a New God, gave fire to Anthro, and the fire has been a motif througout the entire DC Multiverse to represent change, technology and even magic, Alan Scott's constructs burn with a green flame, the miracle machine needed Element X to be used, which is a fire that is essentially, the fire of the gods, which is a white flame, similar to the Entity's white flame:

I like this idea of harmonizing the New Gods with the White Light. In fact, Morrison's Source Wall is rainbow in his map. And the new Lantern teams have said that the reservoirs of emotional energy are from beyond the source wall. Perhaps the emotional spectrum are refracted elements of the source, and the White Entity is integral to the Source.

>As for the Endless, they have their realm in the Dream, I'd say that they choose to remain observers to things happening, so they exist in their own contained world.

I'd say that it's true they don't get involved with mortals too much and have their own thing going on (you don't see them, like, fighting Superman or getting involved in these Crisis Events, they're beyond even these petty concerns), but to say that they are in their own "contained world" kind of overlooks how integral they are to life in the universe. They are the very personification of things elemental to sentient life. I would compare it to panentheism: there is that part of them that is distinct from this universe that resides in a a separate realm, but they also have another foot fully submerged in the universe, pervading everything.
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>>65081617

There's something else I realized about this timeline's Highfather.

>Never got to kill Steppenwolf (not that it matters in this timeline)
>Has never thrown down with Darkseid since the day they both became gods
>Is still relatively young, therefore hasn't had time for his warrior heart to cool

No wonder he's so militant. He's still Izaya-the-Warrior instead of Izaya-the-Peacemaker.
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>>65081617
>Kyle's cursed penis leads to Highfather's death
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>>65081643
>>65081643
>I'd say that it's true they don't get involved with mortals too much and have their own thing going on (you don't see them, like, fighting Superman or getting involved in these Crisis Events, they're beyond even these petty concerns), but to say that they are in their own "contained world" kind of overlooks how integral they are to life in the universe.
That's what I meant, they're really integral to all life, but they're above conflict, usually, so they really don't meddle with stuff.
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>>65081643
>or getting involved in these Crisis Events
Reminder that the death of Morpheus might have caused Zero Hour.
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This page still bothers me, and may support the idea of Kyle being a New God. What exactly does this page mean to you?
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>>65081728

The only thing it tells me is that Himon still looks ridiculous
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>>65081728
That Dreamer has diapers.
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I think that one of the reasons I'm so preoccupied with DCU shenanigans is that, after reading about entropy and shit, I sort of got this idea for a DC storyline about the Lords of Chaos and Order that would touch on determinism and free will.

The Lords of Order are typically portrayed as the "good guys," but I was thinking of doing something where an imbalance of power between them and the Lords of Chaos means that the universe is so ordered that it is deterministic, negating free will. I was thinking that Order is the universe's penchant to follow natural laws and have structure instead of being random, which allows for intelligibility, rational thought, and life. But too much of it means that everything is predetermined, because every event is based upon the effects of past events, and there is no room for uncaused causes or randomness. Kind of spun out of my own wrestling with the ideas of naturalism and free will, because I feel that they are incompatible, yet I also am a naturalist who is hesitant to let go of the idea of free will being true.

Of course, these stray thoughts about Order and Chaos led me to think about the implications on other forces in the DCU, such as the spectrum, the Anti-Life Equation, and Destiny of the Endless.
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>>65081728
Who are her friends now? Himon/Highfather/Darkseid/Kyle? Or the priests and Lord Aagog?
Who's on the table?
Why is Infinity Man allowed on the mass floor and not up with the rest in the seating?
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>>65081905

Darkseid is technically a Lord of Order though.
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>>65081721
>Reminder that the death of Morpheus might have caused Zero Hour.

I've never read Zero Hour, but I thought that this was Parallax's shenanigans with trying to remake the world and shit.
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>>65081943
Which is why I dislike new 52 highfather so much.

Hopefully Infinity Man will end up beating some sense into his brother.
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May as well storytime the most recent issue.
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>>65081905
Well, truth is that Order and Chaos is separated within the multiverse, with Dream representing order and Nightmare representing chaos, so technically the lords of Order and Chaos are inside the dreaming, they generally stay in balance and in the current age of magic, there's no great disbalance of forces in universe, when you start to add prescence of Darkseid, you need to add prescence of New Genesis and so on, so I'd assume that they can influence a bit the choices of higher multiversal beings into action.
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>>65082008
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>>65082022
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>>65081968
I can't remember the specifics of the theory, but it's a whole as above so below sort of thing.

>>65082008
Remember, if you like it, buy it, and pre order the next issue to boost the numbers up so the book won't be cancelled. (Who am I kidding, it's not going to help).
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>>65082038
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>>65082062
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>>65082070
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>>65082084
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>>65082108
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>>65082119
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>>65081943
Really? That actually sort of helps. Because is an argument in the free-will debate that a naturalistic universe is deterministic, and a deterministic universe precludes free will. Anti-Life negates will, so Anti-Life would be Order.

I don't really understand entropy, but in older physics texts, entropy in thermodynamic systems is often called chaos, and order is the opposite of this. Entropy increasing is something like ice melting and then boiling: crystalline structure breaking down into this sort of freedom of particles. The number of possible states a system can be in is it's entropy. Total entropy in the universe would be Heat Death, when there is no more available energy for anything to happen.

But this use of "chaos" and "order" has always seemed counter-intuitive to me. To me, a universe of Heat Death, which would be totally diffused and homogenous, sounds like the most "ordlerly" thing possible. And a universe with vast voids of nothing sprinkled with stars and galaxies here and there, and even things such as life, sounds like disorder and chaos. The idea of matter falling in place in such a way that it creates self-sustaining organisms in some places seems wild and chaotic to me. Maybe this is why modern physics doesn't use these terms often anymore.
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>>65082158
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>>65082175
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>>65082183
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>>65082198
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>>65082229
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>>65082246
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>>65082020
The Dreaming/Nightmare is a good place for them, as Morpheus not only shapes dreams, storytelling, and creativity, but its opposite, reality. I hear that the Lords appear in book four of Sandman. Anything special happen here?

Also, do all of the Endless live in Dream? Because I imagine that the Garden of Destiny is a good place for the Lords of Order. Destiny represents the ordered course of the universe, but like all Endless, also shapes the opposite of his domain: freedom. The Lords of Order and Chaos could be facets of Destiny.

Now somebody has to explain why Destiny is with the Overvoid in the map.
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>>65082258
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All this talk of the Life Equation and Anti-Life Equation, yet no one's brought up the Anti-Death Equation mentioned in Multiversity.
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>>65082264
Destiny and his book permeates all existence, so he exists in all reality, confined only by the Source Wall.
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>>65082271
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>>65082287

Because it's dumb.
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>>65082287
Let Morrison explain Morrishit.
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>>65082313
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>>65082327
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>>65082287
Because it's been in like three pages. Wait for more.

>>65082337
Look! The Forever People are the Pantheon from The Wicked + The Divine!
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>>65082175
Is it just me, or does Big Bear seem gay?
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>>65082287
Fuck, the Anti-Death Equation fucked up my mind.

I mean, you think it'd be good, because it's Anti-Death, the opposite of Anti-Life. But no, the villains (who, again, are from beyond the source) use it to promote eternal torture.

And you'd think that Anti-Death would be Life. But the Anti-Death Equation appears for now to be different from the Life Equation.

DCU Cosmology is probably harder than real physics. We'll solve particle-wave duality and understand gravity and the Higgs Field before we get this shit worked out.

Also, does the Godwave permeate the Sphere of the Gods on the map? Shouldn't the Endless be above the gods, rather than within the same sphere? Why are the Monitors above the gods instead?

Don't get me started on Captain Atom's Quantum Field. I thought quantum theory prefers to conceptualize things as particle densities rather than relativity's fields?
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>>65082370
What makes you think that? His name? His Cape? His hugs?
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>>65082399
>Why are the Monitors above the gods instead?
Because the monitors are a probe sent by the Overvoid from behind the Source wall.
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>>65082399
>I mean, you think it'd be good, because it's Anti-Death, the opposite of Anti-Life. But no, the villains (who, again, are from beyond the source) use it to promote eternal torture
Anti-Death is immortality for all, I bet. An eldritch horror would love that because its torture would be unending with no hope of reprieve from an afterlife.

>Why are the Monitors above the gods instead?
Because the monitors exist outside of the multiverse, and apart from the Bleed. They're the equivalent of the Living Tribunal and the One above All, watching to ensure the will of the Source Wall is enacted, while also allowing for other forces to influence what could otherwise be horrible.

>Don't get me started on Captain Atom's Quantum Field. I thought quantum theory prefers to conceptualize things as particle densities rather than relativity's fields?
How about you realize that most writers can't into physics and just enjoy the story for what it is?
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>>65082399
Yeah, things are more conceptual.

Life is having the capacity to choose what and when to do for as long as you can, so Anti-Life would be being bound to someone else's will, and this being will completely comtrol you.

Death is being released from biological funcions, and Anti-Death would be being trapped within biological functions, forever.

The Godwave originates in the Sphere but permeates the multiverse, and while the sphere of the gods exist, what happens is that it contains being unique and vital to the multiverse, they're all the same hierachy.
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>>65082493
>Anti-Death is immortality for all, I bet. An eldritch horror would love that because its torture would be unending with no hope of reprieve from an afterlife.
And Morrison did create the Many-Angled ones who did just that with the Cancerverse.
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>>65082443
So, the Monitors could probe Dream's realm if they wanted to? I always thought of Gaiman's characters as sort of the things beyond everything, beyond gods, the ultimate lynchpins.

Also, what is the Overvoid, exactly? I mean, it's the white page that the comic is printed on, right? So, are we, as readers, beings from beyond the Source Wall, or are we within its confines, in the Orrery of Worlds, on Earth-33?
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>>65082528
Alright negger, get ready.

Monitors were sent by the Overmonitor, which is essentially the Overvoid, to monitor stories within the multiverse, they're not outright gods, they feed on the Bleed, and the Bleed is contained by the Speedforce wall.
Beings in the Sphere of the Gods have no upper hierachy, they are not bound to Monitor's will, not even the Overmonitor's will, everyone even gods have free will.
The Overvoid, is the Overmonitor, the Multiverse is a germ in a gigantic being that permeates all reality, even us.

We are not beyond the Source Wall, we're confined to the Speedforce wall on Earth-33.
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>>65082528
The Source Wall is the page. Source Wall = fourth Wall. The Overvoid is the Reader/Writer/Artist/Editor. DC's version of the One Above All.
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>>65082588
And just forget JLA/Avengers existed.
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>>65082627
something something Kronos egg something something Trinity something something Earth-One.
JLA/Retaliators.
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>>65082627
Well, the DC Multiverse being a germ in the Overmonitor, there's the belief that the Marvel Multiverse is another germ in the Overmonitor.

But fucking everyone has forgotten that fucking story even Morrison and he's a continuity maniac.
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>>65079883
>I know that Kirby didn't create the "Life Equation," and that that's a relatively recent addition to his mythos.

IT'S IN THE GODDAMN FIRST ISSUE OF 'NEW GODS'.

"The freedom to choose" is the Life Equation.

>>65080753

He would know.

>>65080885

Me neither. Emotions are in a reservoir and can run out?

Didn't they establish a really long time ago that the green energy is GENERATED by all living things that have will power... and the same for the other colors? It makes a goddamn sight more sense.

>>65081177

I still say Nekron is an aspect of death. Gaiman is a great guy, but he doesn't get to make the rules for everybody.

I even have some headcanon: the original Death is the one we see in the Dream (or is it Desire?) segment of Endless Nights - angry, heartless, dreaded even by the stars. After she underwent her self-imposed trial of mortality, she became the threefold being she is now... and which is like the Living (sorry, Dead) Tribunal - equity (Death), revenge (Nekron) and necessity (the Black Racer).
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>>65081728
Who is the guy on the far left?
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Can we get away from Morrison and Multiversity? This was a nice discussion, once.
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>>65082659
>Gaiman is a great guy, but he doesn't get to make the rules for everybody.
Except he does. That was the whole point of the Books of Magic.
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>>65082672
The first three words of OP are "Morrison's" "Multiverse" "Map"
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>>65082425
My hopes and dreams
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>>65081711

Full circle.

>>65081978

If he is Drax in this version.

...Hold on. In this version, Darkseid's brother is Izaya, not Drax.

>>65082297

Until, at the end, when he has lost his book because there is no more future, no more destiny, he becomes the Time Trapper.

>>65082443

I thought the original Monitor was a probe, and the Monitor people were an allergic reaction of the Overmonitor to the multiverse.
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>>65082690

Gaiman gets to lay down the meta-rules of a shared fictional universe? For ever?

I don't believe that.
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>>65082775
>If he is Drax in this version.
>
>...Hold on. In this version, Darkseid's brother is Izaya, not Drax.
No reason why He can't be Darkseid's brother. Izaya is Darkseid's sister's husband.

Also they can easily retcon the Darkseid villian month issue as being something Kaiyo made up. Because it's stupid. And contradicts other stuff.
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So are the Endless pretty much DCs Celestials? The Source/Overmonitor whatever is the One Above of All and the New Gods are the Titans?
Idk what comes under Celestials in Marvel. I know Galactus is up there but there's Anti-Mon for that.
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Isn't there something called the Presence in DC?
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>>65082985
The Presence = Judo-Christian God (Mainly God the Father)

He's a dog who travels around with Judas right now.
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>>65082971
Marvel:
>TOAA
>TLT
>Cosmic abstracts:
Phoenix
Eternity
Beyonder
In-Betweener
et al
>Friendless
>The Vishanti
>Celestials
>Eternals = Galactus
>Skyfathers
>>
>>65083029
Someone made an up to date chart but I don't have it saved and I don't know where the thread is for it.
>>
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>>65083020
God Dog is so adorable
>>
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>>65083058
>Judo-Christian God
>>
>>65083124
Meant to quote >>65083020
>>
Also according to Marvel/DC crossovers the equivalent of the Living Tribunal is the Spectre for some reason?
>>
>>65083202
I would rather say the Beyonder.
>>
>>65082971
My understanding of DC hierarchy, as much as there is one:
>Source
>Overmonitor
>(Technically, Superman Thought Robot)
>Monitors
>Endless
>Judeo-Christian God
>Angels, Demons, non-abrahamic Gods
>(maybe) New Gods
>The Collector's around here somewhere
>5D entities
Those are all multiversal
In Earth-0:
>Emotional Entities
>Red/Green/Black?
>Guardians of the Universe?

Not sure from there on.
>>
>>65083202
They're both representatives of God. LT way outclasses Spectre on most fronts, but they share a similar purpose in each of their universes.
>>
>>65082264
The Endless exist in a descending order as the multiverse expands internally and grows in complexity. Destiny permeates the entire universe and exists on the border of the Source Wall, straddling the Overvoid. Death exists in Nil and the eight Limbos. Dream resides in the Godsphere, where he has an entire realm: this is because the New Gods are not affected by him, and the four over/underworlds exist independently, only their specifics being determined by the beliefs of the germ-people (the New God worlds are furthest from the Dream realm, and the four over/underworlds exist next to it).
Destruction is the Speed Force barrier: matter cannot exist beyond here. Also, as Destruction divides his older siblings from the youngers, so does the Speed Force barrier separate the mortals from the immortals.
>>
>>65083688
Desire is the Bleed: the first issue including the Bleed in the DCU opens with Superman massaging Lois Lane's heart, he helps the monitor out of desire to help Lois, and the Bleed is described as the secret substance of life itself, desire being the main reason why mortals with a mind do anything (Ecclesiastes: All is vanity). Animals are capable of destruction, and dreaming, and dying, and are on the web of fate, but to truly desire something and bend all will towards it requires a conscious mind: this is the way the Bleed feeds the universes. The Bleed isn't a panacea, it's a magic lamp.
Despair is the material of the worlds: base matter which transcends its vulgar trappings, because Despair never wins in the DCU. The material world is separate from God and exists in a constant state of debasement, and when Joker looked in the puddle, and when you turned your back and the Pig crept in, they were infected by the sickness of the universe but in turn infected it with what they lost: their humanity.
Delight/Delirium are the two sides of the coin of theophany. She was created when the first hairy shaman took mushrooms and spoke and accessed the higher world, and the higher world bled through and created the House of Heroes, and the House of Heroes manifested in the first world through the Superman, and the Superman was seen by the higher world, which modeled the House of Heroes after him. What Delight saw outside Destiny's which turned her to Delirium was the universe reflecting on itself infinitely like a four-dimensional liquid diamond turning inside-out over and over and growing more complex, and in each iteration Destiny is defied.
>>
>>65082653
>But fucking everyone has forgotten that fucking story
Now that marvel is owned by Disney I think both DC and Marvel may be pressured by higher-ups not to use anything established in a crossover.
>>
>>65083750
Nah, it's Harras and Quesadilla's hated for each other.
>>
>>65082814
Niven got to lay down the meta-rules of GL for decades.
>>
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>>65083730
>the first issue including the Bleed in the DCU opens with Superman massaging Lois Lane's heart,
Wrong. The Bleed appears earlier than that, in Ion and is described as the pathway between universes.
>>
>>65083765
I thought Quesadilla retired. That's why we have more mutants.
>>
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This belongs here?
>>
>>65083823
God damn it.
Well, at least there's the obvious parallel between Desire's realm and the universe described as a network of arteries.
>>
>>65083823
And hell, it was all over Countdown.

I know we all have agreed to forget about Countdown, but it did happen.

>>65083854
He moved up a rung.

>>65083855
I feel like desire is more love/greed and we shouldn't try to force things.
>>
>>65083857
>>65083823
It also originated in the Authority. It's how they moved between dimensions.
>>
>>65083900
Authority doesn't count.
>>
>>65083888
Desire has nothing to do with love. This is implied a few times in Sandman and outright stated in Book of Dreams.
>>
>>65083730
>>65083750
>>65083688
>ITT: Morrison posts on /co/ and realizes shit goes deeper than he thought
>>
>>65080843
The Ophidian looks like a giant mutant clitoris.
>>
>>65079883
>Only avarice and rage are emotive
>Other spectrums just look passive

So orange and red confirmed for best corps?
>>
>>65084399
Orange and red are canonically the hardest to control. Followed by violet. But what would you have Kyle do there, make duck lips or bite his lower lip?
>>
>>65084399
We've known that for a while.
>>
>>65084422
>bite his lower lip
yes.
>>
>>65084437
>Kyle defeats Highfather by channeling the violet light and making suggestive poses at him

It's like I'm playing Corruption of Champions!
>>
>>65080118
>it's highly likely that Kyle may actually be a New God himself.
Talk about shitting on the New Gods...
>>
>>65084675
Talk about shit taste.
>>
>>65084675
Yeah, but at least it's not Hal "I'm a genocidal maniac and incompetent superhero" Jordan.
>>
>>65084686
Fuck off retard

>>65084688
No, it's shonen protagonist Kyle, greatest human, greatest lantern, greatest hero of all time. Soon to be greatest New God now too. But that's beside the point, him being a New Gods makes absolutely no fucking sense to begin with.
>>
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>>65084719
>Shonen protagonist Kyle

I don't understand that at all.
>>
>>65084719
Unless he is mantling Tachyon the way Shiloh mantled Mr. Miracle.

Goddamnit do I have Tachyon. He's Byrne's, right?
>>
>>65080174
>Kyle is actually a New God scion
>Diana is an Olympian scion

Kyle x Diana endgame detected!
>>
>>65080668
Volthoom is an OG thug motherfucker. He'll wreck your face, son.
>>
>>65081045
>hanging out with Soranik and Sodam.

You mean being gangbanged by Soranik and Sodam (and other side characters, of course)?
>>
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>>65081147
They're all facets of the same shit, emotional light force stuff.

>>65081280
2lewd
>>
>>65082370
You seem gay, m8
>>
>>65082921
I want to fuck Kaiyo
>>
>>65083688
>>65083730
I like it
>>
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>>65083908
But muh World's Gayest
>>
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>>65079883
How did the thread get this big with no one posting this yet?
>>
There's no need to mix in DC cape concepts and Vertigo concepts. They're separate, but equal. Like how Lucifer once walked past the Source Wall and just ignored it, or how the Endless are written to be literally capable of living through reboots.
>>
>>65085437
>there's no need to mix in shared universe concepts
>>
>>65085437
>He still think Vertigo is separate
Sandman had the goddamn origin of Superman. That's as embedded in dc as you get
>>
>>65085490
Yes, yes, and Hippolyta Hall is Daniel's mom. But you really shouldn't try to set up closer crossovers. If you do you end up with Constantine in the Justice League... which... has... already... happened.

...

Nu52 is shit! SHIT.
>>
>>65085525
>being this mad for no reason

It's been three years, dork. Step your game up and read a book, nigga.
>>
>>65085536
I fucking hate DC editorial.

There was a reason they're not brought closer together.
>>
>>65085456
Fuck, he should've tapped that ass instead of moping around about how his daddy didn't love him and shit. What a dweeb.
>>
>>65085548
>new stories that don't conform to my expectations or desires negate the existence of the stories I allegedly love

Yeah, nah, folks like you are full of shit, m8. Editors didn't go to your house and piss on your comics. Chill out.
>>
>>65085562
>terrible storyline choices are immediately valid for being new
>>
This thread is so autistic, holy shit
>>
>>65085574
No one owes you good storylines, Anon. Like, I feel ya, you're sad about not getting any more cookies, but the Grand Book of Destiny doesn't say "This Nigga Always Gets What He Wants," now does it?

Everything will turn out okay (until they come to your house and piss on your comics; then you're fucked.)
>>
>>65085436
/thread
>>
>>65085548
Nigga John is a perfect fucking straight man to the DC shit.

Vertigo always liked playing with the DC toys and vice versa.

Fucking Dream was in JLA
>>
>>65081905

But Anon, there is no free will. Every choice is predetermined by factors you have no control over. Free will would necessitate a choice maker that is located of existence, making his choice unafflicted by choices and circumstances within existence. If that was the case, he would have no means to make a choice that somehow references or is in contact with said existence. So you see, there is no free will, because it is logically impossible.
>>
So all this New Gods shit intrigues me.

Does someone have a reading list of minimal Nu52 material I should read to get the issue with Kyle entering the Source Wall?
>>
>>65085900
You can start at GL New Guardians #21 and then read the Lights Out crossover for the bare minimum I think
>>
>>65085930
And I think Lights Out is GL/GLC/RL/NG #24 plus GL annual 2
>>
Is Kyle the best lantern ever?
>>
>>65086153
I think every lantern with enough page time has been declared the best ever at some point or another so yeah sure
>>
>>65082162
>I don't really understand entropy
Okay, so everything in the universe naturally wants to move from an ordered state to a disordered state. You ever hear the term "nature abhors a vacuum"? Well nature also hates it when stuff, energy, matter, what have you, is concentrated in one area and not in another.

Everything in the universe naturally moves down gradients, from areas of higher concentration to lower concentration. To move AGAINST this gradient you need to expend work, and burn energy. However, to GET energy we need to take molecules from a higher energy state to a lower energy state to release that energy to use (burning fossils fuels, breaking phosphorous bonds in ATP, etc), and in the process some of it will inevitably be lost.

So as time moves on, the universe as a whole progresses to disorder, with matter and energy being spread more evenly and that matter itself being less energetic. That tendency of progression is what we call "entropy".

If you want some really scary shit, look up the Heat Death of the universe.
>>
>>65082493
>Anti-Death is immortality for all, I bet.

Cancer-verse?
>>
>>65082775
>Until, at the end, when he has lost his book because there is no more future, no more destiny, he becomes the Time Trapper.

I've never heard this but, holy shit, they both have purple hooded robes. And Destiny seems to be about order, while Time Trapper, living at a moment of total entropy, would have to be chaos incarnate. Oh my god.

>>65082659
>I still say Nekron is an aspect of death.
Hmm. Nekron could be Death, but Death when she's pissed off. But then I would question why she would want to wipe out all life in the universe when she's so chill.

>>65083124
My sides.

>>65083688
>this is because the New Gods are not affected by him

But Mr. Miracle even recognizes him as some sort of god in an early issue of Sandman, the same way Martian Manhunter sees him as a Martian deity.

Overall, though, good stuff.

>>65085343
Oh yeah, what's up with Volthoom? He's from a dead universe, right? Like Relic? Or is he from Earth-3?

>>65083249
>>Red/Green/Black?

Shit, this raises FURTHER questions.

Imma gonna say Earth's Red/Green/Rot all all facets of the White Light of Life.

The Rot isn't death, it's decay. Microorganisms, decomposers, all that shit, breaking dead shit down into nutrients so that new life can use the nutrients and live. It's a necessary part of life, as well. So, it's part of White, not Black.
>>
>>65087694
Volthoom is from Earth 3 yeah
>>
the first time the Ion entity has spoken
>>
>>65084719
>him being a New Gods makes absolutely no fucking sense

Only if you're new to the whole godhood thing.
>>
>>65085343
Volthoom is the most powerful Lantern to have ever set foot in the DC multiverse.
>>
>>65080738
it was also in a run of Firestorm that i remember
>>
>>65084908
>Mantling

Sheogorath go back to your universe
>>
>>65082264
>I hear that the Lords appear in book four of Sandman. Anything special happen here?
Lucifer quits Hell and gives it to Dream. A bunch of deities ask Dream to give Hell to them, including the Lords of Order and Chaos.
They offer stuff and threaten him, Dream doesn't give a shit.
>>
>>65082971
The Endless are... different. They aren't gods of things, they ARE the things. That's why there can be several gods of death, but only Death is death.

Similarly, all gods (except maybe the One Above All) are born in The Dreaming and then, if they become strong enough, they leave and claim/create their own reamls.

We even know that Dream can retroactively change the universe, if enough beings coordinate their dreams to make that change happen. It's entirely possible that the One Above All is another Dreaming-born entity that rose to his supreme position via Dream-Retcon.

So yeah, they can't really be put in any sort of tier list or hierarchy, because remember that all of existence, gods, Gods, mortals and everything else, is inside Destiny's book.
>>
For those of you who read sandman, I think you could classify nekron as a deaths helper in a single universe(and not the multiverse) in a similar power level to the guy who has Morpheus' ruby in the first story arc. Empowered, but at best only possessing a fraction of an Endless' power.
>>
This stuff can make your head spin, can't it?
>>
>>65093797
I've always thought it's best not to see Nekron as Death. He's the Lord of the Unliving, he can govern what is allowed in his realm, which is most of the dead (hence why he couldn't resurrect Don Hall. He too is an embodiment of something, and it's Dark Energy. He's slowly pulling the universe apart, he is darkness.
>>
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>>65079883

Does anyone else think the white lantern symbol km this image kind of looks like a Monitor looking down? If their cornrows were rainbows? And they also had airbending tattoos?
>>
>>65082971
Listen, there's no hierachy in the Multiverse.

The Overmonitor exists beyond the Source Wall, so he is the Source, and the Multiverse is within him, HOWEVER, HE DOESN'T DICTATE WHAT HAPPENS INSIDE, and hoesn't even meddle with it.
Monitors are on the outer shell, and they have no dominion over beings below, they do not interact with beings in the Sphere of the Gods, and only observe the 52 universes:
The Sphere of the Gods is a place where deities stay, none is higher hierachy to the other, and none have a REAL dominion over the 52 universes.

There're no hierachies, only levels. Just don't compare multiverses, they work differently on a basical level.
>>
>>65083765
Aparently, Quesada really takes seriously the console wars, so he has an absolute rule of no interactions with DC.
>>
>>65097041
I thought is was Harras didn't like how anti-DC Quesada was/is in interviews and such.
>>
>>65097098
No, no, Qesadilla started comparing DC's outline to Marvel's and then he started to poke them, and he did this so often that it became his mentality that everything regarding DC is bad, and this makes Marvel better, so he started ignoring any attempt by DiDio for contact and stuff.
>>
>>65096840
The lines represent different things; The lines converging mean unity, in the way that you have to unite your feelings to be truly alive, and take action in base to your feelings.
>>
>>65096990
No the Overvoid isn't the Source, but the two work in tandem to create story. The Overvoid is the paper, the Source is the idea.

Story cannot exist without both, it needs both the medium to be told and the storyteller to tell it.
>>
>>65097518
See, that's the difference, the Overvoid doesn't really exist, he's only an idea, a being that doesn't exist tangibly, that's why the Overmonitor is also the Overvoid.
And within the Overmonitor, the Multiverse started to exist, something came from nothing, so in that sense, the Overvoid is also the Source.

Sure, if you're being completely metatextual, the Source is the idea of the comic, in essence, the mind of the writer.
>>
>>65079883
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opoc-AjMlww&channel=DCEntertainmentTV
>>
>>65081177
i see necron and thanos having the same endgame i.e death of the universe
>>
>>65091900
This. He'll come to your house and sodomize your hopes and dreams
>>
>>65099533
and he'll probably tentacle rape you while he's at it
>>
>>65088048
It never says he's from Earth 3. The only things that support that speculation are the flag on his spacesuit in GL 17 and his ring returning to it's own universe at the end of GL 20, which is vague at best.
Things that seem contrary to that are his arrival on Maltus after Krona witnessing the creation event. His possession of a lantern prior to the creation of any rings and lanterns, and his mastery of the emotional spectrum prior to the creation of any rings or lanterns.
>>
>>65100124
in GL 20 it says Volthoom was banished back to his own universe and then a few months later Power Ring comes from Earth 3 wearing Volthoom's ring, though
>>
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>>65083249
Michael and Lucifer are at least equal with the Endless, if not above them. By extension, God is somewhere beyond that.
>>
>>65100267
Naw, he was drained of the emotional spectrum, returned to being human and then offed by Nekron. After which one of the Guardians said his corrupted ring was banished back to his universe. In JL 26 it shows Power Ring acquiring the ring of Volthoom 5 years ago, obvi prior to the Wrath of the First Lantern event even with Nu52's inconsistent continuity.

Power Ring's were always said to be the ring of Volthoom even prior to the First Lantern being retroactively introduced into continuity.
>>
>>65100267
First Lantern Volthoom's death in pic related.
>>
And the five years ago origin of Nu 52 Earth 3 Power Ring in pic related.
>>
>>65100624
so Volthoom isn't from Earth 3 but his ring is?
>>
>>65100783
Volthoom is also from Earth-3. He's a human who travelled to our universe. As for Volthoom's ring, think of it as like Sauron's, it's not his actual body, but contains his essence.
>>
>>65101330
So, when the Guardians started the Corps, they borowed the first Corpsman and ring from an evil universe?
>>
>>65100702
>We've been given a second chance

And then they were murdered fairly soon after.
>>
>>65102247
except Ganthet, because Sinestro ships GanthetxSayd apparently

I wonder how long they're going to leave those two off the table
>>
>>65101864
No, no. Volthoom was given the first real ring (his ring is also designed to patrol a whole universe, not a sector, hence why there is only one Power Ring).

His Lantern was made a part of him, and his ring became a part of him. So in essence, a part of his soul persists in the ring.
>>
>>65082399
Life=Choice
Death=No Choice
Anti-Life=Somebody else's Choice
Anti-Death=Gold Experience Requiem. Choice is irrelevant.
>>
>>65102414
All this bullshit existential stuff with Kyle would be easily solved with Ganthet helping him.
>>
>>65082627
Marvel-616 is not simply in another Multiverse, but in another Megaverse(Multiverse cluster) altogether.
The original New Universe was in a different Multiverse than 616: the Multiverse of the 616 is the one overseen by the Living Tribunal, and he had no power over the New Universe.

Reality Number=Planet
Multiverse=Solar System
Megaverse=Galaxy
>>
>>65101330
>Volthoom is also from Earth-3

Where does it say he's from Earth 3?

As I've already shown Nu 52 Power Ring from Forever Evil already had his ring (via flashback in JL 26) before Wrath of the First Lantern Volthoom was killed and WotFL Volthoom's ring returned to it's own universe of unspecified origin.
>>
>>65102744
>before Wrath of the First Lantern Volthoom was killed and WotFL Volthoom's ring returned to it's own universe of unspecified origin.
considering how much time fuckery Volthoom inflicted on everyone the timeline isn't really an issue
>>
>>65101864
Volthoom showed the Guardians how to use the emotional spectrum. They presumably combined his lantern tech with the Krona's will power gauntlet technology and created the GL corps some time later, after leaving Maltus for OA, and having bungled with the manhunters, and imprisoning Volthoom in his power battery.
>>
>>65102607

Well. That's. Just. Prime.
>>Guitar Riff.
>>
>>65100702
what a finale that was
>>
>>65102760
So you're saying that Volthoom invented emotional spectrum lantern technology on Earth 3, traveled to Earth-0 and back in time to before the Guardians were Guardians, was imprisoned for eons, escaped and was killed by Nekron, then his ring traveled back to Earth 3 and back in time 5 plus years to end up on an Earth 3 Abin Sur to be transferred upon death to Earth-3 Hal Jordan?

Because admitting WotFL Volthoom isn't the same as Earth 3 Power ring's Volthoom is much more difficult to swallow than that?
>>
>>65103039
>Because admitting WotFL Volthoom isn't the same as Earth 3 Power ring's Volthoom is much more difficult to swallow than that?
nah I accept that, I'm just saying fucking with time lines was his whole deal
>>
is new guardians any good after 20?
>>
>>65103116
It's pretty average. Nothing bad about it but nothing really interesting other than Kyle having an existential crisis and soon to be banging Carol.
>>
>>65103116
it's taken a turn for space horror recently and that aspect is pretty well done

they've hooked Carol and Kyle up and it's incredibly awful though
>>
>>65103039

I still think that /co/'s theory that the Sins that Pandora unleashed were Earth 3's version of the emotion spectrum entities was kind of neat.
>>
>>65103116
It waivers, the parts with Relic were okay, then it drops off a little imo and picks back up a little with Annual 2 and the build-up to the upcoming confrontation with the New Gods. But honestly you could probably skip it and read a recap somewhere for the major beats.
>>
>>
>>65079883
So, how does the source wall being around the multiverse rather than around any one universe change shit?

Doesn't it alter all those stories where we see characters go to it?

Also, how about having one set of whatever pantheon of gods for the multiverse?

Doesn't that mean that the Greek gods gave gifts not only to Diana, but to any alternate-universe version of Wonder Woman who has a similar origin? Like Wonder Man? Because you never get the sense that Earth-0 is just one of the Earths they do business in, and that Diana is just one of their many champions.
>>
>>65104797
>Doesn't it alter all those stories where we see characters go to it?
The universes are all in the same space, but vibrate at different frequencies. The Source Wall goes around all of them but... at all frequencies? You can touch it from any universe. You just shouldn't, because you get stuck to it or something.

And Wonder Woman isn't a champion of the gods now, she is a god. Ares died and she took his mantle.
>>
>>65104855
>The universes are all in the same space, but vibrate at different frequencies

Oh yeah, I forgot. That makes sense.

So, if they share the same spatial dimensions, but matter from each of them doesn't interact because of different vibrational frequencies, how about time dimensions?

I previously thought of time something contained in each universe, with no wider reference of time to compare universes. Like, it wouldn't make sense to ask "what time is it on Earth-4 when it's 6:32 on Earth-7?"

But if they share space, it actually DOES make sense to ask what the corresponding space-coordinates of two universes are. So, is it the same for time?

>And Wonder Woman isn't a champion of the gods now, she is a god. Ares died and she took his mantle.

Oh yeah...

Well, how about before that? Or, to use another example, did the gods for whom Shazam is named lend their powers to a Captain Marvel for each world he exists on?
>>
>>65105068
>what time is it on Earth-4 when it's 6:32 on Earth-7?"
well we know Earth 0 and Earth 2 are synced up, except the Earth 2 trinity was older than the Earth 0 trinity (E2 Batman was at least like a decade older, and E2 Diana might be decades and decades older than E0 Diana)
>>
>>65105134
Earth-23 is also older than Earth-0, since Superman is at least 35.
>>
>>65080973
>>65081045
Hal is the Spectre 2.0?
>>
>>65107180
I can dig it
>>
So Grant Morrison said Final Crisis was supposed to be an ushering in of the Fifth World. The Fourth World is cannon things in comics that control those comics characters, at least that's how I see it. With Grant saying that in Multiversity, the reader will become a superhero and part of the story, I think the Fifth World is us. It's literally us, the people coming up with and reading the stories. Grant believes imagination is the fifth dimension, if we think the fourth world is the fourth dimension, than the fifth world would be imagination. So us, the creator, imagining these superheroes.
>>
>>65108959
what's the point?
what does morrison accomplish making up this stuff?
>>
>>65080690
I hope the Endless are never in NuDC.
>>
>>65109067
What does anyone accomplish making up any story ever? It's just adding to the mythos
>>
>>65105068
Time progresses linearly and at the same rate in every universe, because they are linked to the same beggining, and the same end, so many universes share the same moment in time.

In essence, if a single universe is 20 thousand years old, all universes are 20 thousand years old. Think of it as spacetime, since they occupy the same space, they must also occupy the same time, they just can't interact directly with each other.
>>
>>65084719
Anon are you sure you aren't talking about Hal here? Because that's what DC is doing with him. Why do you think they made him the primary Green Lantern instead of Kyle or Reddy Freddy Guy?
Hal's been considered the greatest human, the greatest lantern in the DC universe, especially the new one. Even more so then John Stewart who's gotten brushed aside like a one cent paper.
Hal's even leader of the entire Green Lantern Corp for crying out-loud and he's telling people to use their rings even though it's supposedly killing the universe.
>>
>>65105134
This only relates to the moment when such characters appear and begin their carreer, in Earth-0, Superman began his carrer in 2005, in Earrth-2 he must have begun it much earlier, maybe in 1985, because you see him more experienced, but they are all at the same year in the overall universe timeline, considering that different universes may measure time in different units.
>>
>>65109182
I think he means that Kyle gets ultimate power more than anyone.
>Host of Ion
>Host of Parallax for like two issues
>Able to master the whole emotional spectrum
>Able to host all the entities at once
>Only person to ever go past the source wall and come back
>>
>>65109182
>Even more so then John Stewart who's gotten brushed aside like a one cent paper
aside from starring in GLC and basically being second in command you mean
>>
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>>65109209
yes that's what I'm getting at

They're both in the year 2014 but the Earth 2 trinity was all born earlier than their Earth 0 counterparts
>>
>>65109148
So, the Gotham By Gaslight universe where Batman was around during the Victorian Age... if I go there now, is it 2014 and Batman's already dead, or is it still the Victorian Age there?
>>
>>65110202
The Gaslit universe is a universe where electricity was never discovered, in essence, a universe where Michael Faraday never existed, and just now on 2014 Lex Luthor is discovering it.
>>
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>>65108959
>So Grant Morrison said Final Crisis was supposed to be an ushering in of the Fifth World. The Fourth World is cannon things in comics that control those comics characters, at least that's how I see it. With Grant saying that in Multiversity, the reader will become a superhero and part of the story, I think the Fifth World is us. It's literally us, the people coming up with and reading the stories. Grant believes imagination is the fifth dimension, if we think the fourth world is the fourth dimension, than the fifth world would be imagination. So us, the creator, imagining these superheroes.
>The Endless exist in a descending order as the multiverse expands internally and grows in complexity. Destiny permeates the entire universe and exists on the border of the Source Wall, straddling the Overvoid. Death exists in Nil and the eight Limbos. Dream resides in the Godsphere, where he has an entire realm: this is because the New Gods are not affected by him, and the four over/underworlds exist independently, only their specifics being determined by the beliefs of the germ-people (the New God worlds are furthest from the Dream realm, and the four over/underworlds exist next to it).
Destruction is the Speed Force barrier: matter cannot exist beyond here. Also, as Destruction divides his older siblings from the youngers, so does the Speed Force barrier separate the mortals from the immortals.
>As for harmonizing this stuff, I once posted this pet theory I have that Nekron was a minor minion of Death who became corrupt and began to feel that death is the natural order of the universe and that life is an abomination. Having some of Death's power is why he rules the dimension of the Dead Zone and had enough control over death that he could do Blackest Night. But he isn't the ultimate entity of death in the DCU.
>>
>>65083730
>>65083688
Please someone archive this thread. You might doubt its worth, but this is some real heady shit I'm sure Morrison and/or Gaiman would love to come across.
>>
>>65111230
http://archive.moe/co/thread/65079883/
>>
>>65110280
Ah. So, do they call it "2014" there, or did they also start their calendar later, even though the universe has been around for the same amount of time?

One thing that has always bothered me about DC Cosmology is the depiction of space as having boundaries, and having a "center" (Oa). Real-life cosmology says that, according to the Copernican Principle, every point of space is identical, so there is no "edge" or end to it, nor is there a center. Like the surface of a sphere has no edge or center. Space is expanding, but it's not expanding "into" anything else "outside" of space. It expands into itself. Distances between things are getting larger.

So, the Source Wall and Oa kind of conflict with that.

Then I started to think about how this model of space makes sense for a FICTIONAL universe. It has a boundary because it exists within our universe, and its boundary is "real life." While our universe doesn't have an outside, a fictional one does. And while ours doesn't expand into anything, a fictional one expands into ours.

Then I thought about how we're supposed to be Earth-33 and how that universe has a center and a Source Wall and it went back to making no sense.

I think making the "real world" a world in the fictional multiverse was a mistake. The model is much cleaner when we're simply beyond the Source Wall. In fact, in the current model, any universe is beyond the Source Wall, just as Calvin Ellis is beyond the wall when he reads Dino Cop (he's outside that page). How does this make sense?
>>
>>65111834
First, I'm pretty sure Oa isn't the center of the universe, the Guardians are just that self centered.

Second, the source wall is 4D or 5D, it's not a 3D boundary, it's more complex then that
>>
>>65111953
nah Oa was the literal center of the universe

it blew up so now I guess it's not though
>>
>>65112005
I feel like it's been retconned back and forth.
>>
>>65112005
>the literal center of the universe
Where was that written? I know the Guardians chose it as the center of their sector schema, but we do that with Earth too, just because it's where all of our telescopes are at.
>>
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>>65112042
in GL #1 it's the 'central galaxy' of the universe so the idea has been around a while, but I'm almost positive it's been referred to as the actual center more recently

too tired to dig through scans
>>
>>65112098
Yeah, well Central Asia isn't in the center of Asia, and even if the central galaxy was literally in the center of the universe, that's a lot of available space for Oa to be in.
>>
>>65111953
>First, I'm pretty sure Oa isn't the center of the universe, the Guardians are just that self centered.

They've shown how the GL sectors are organized a few times, and it always shows the universe as a sphere with a center.

In fact, the reboot issue of GLC #1 kind of did the sectors differently than before. It used to be more of a grid, but now it's, like, a 3D pie, with each slice going to the center, so that Oa is in "every sector." I liked the old way better, because it sort of had the implications that some Lanterns are more remote than others, being in deeper space, further away from the base, and all that.

>Second, the source wall is 4D or 5D, it's not a 3D boundary, it's more complex then that

This is one thing I was hoping, that the wall isn't at the limit of our 3 spatial dimensions, but some higher dimension, so that we could still have a (spatially) boundless universe that real-life physics proposes (don't ask me why it's important for funnybooks to conform to real-life physics, I'm autistic).

Another thing about space and lanterns... the New Gods didn't seem to used to be outside of the universe or "metaphysical." I mean, if they were, there'd be no point to the Guardians forbidding the Lanterns from going to Apokalips, as it would pretty much be impossible, anyway. Also, how about that Zamaron/Apokalips War? I dunno, I liked the Fourth World being part of the universe, but whatevs, this works, too.

Hey, if the Source Wall surrounds the "metaphysical" sphere, does that mean that all those times superheroes visit it, they are passing places like Dream and Hell on the way?
>>
>>65112156
The pre-new 52 status of the Fourth World was very ambiguous. There were definitely times when it seemed like New Genesis/Apokalips were in universe and you could fly there with a ring or ship, and then there were times when you had to use a boom tube to get to either of them. It was really up to the writer.

Now, in the New 52, it's been clear since Earth-2 started that the New Gods are unique.

I'm really not sure about the source wall yet. It's obviously surrounding the entire multiverse (since Godhead relies on New Genesis to care about Earth-0 Green Lanterns breaching it, it has to be multiversal). But it's also unclear as to exactly how they got there. They didn't take a bleed ship...

It's a 4D or 5D map on a 2D surface, it's going to be confusing.
>>
>>65112331
With the Boom Tubes, I always thought that the Fourth World was part of the universe, but due to some weird geography of the universe, the Fourth World was inaccessible through normal space travel, almost as if it were in a "bubble" of our universe. Like, there was a gap in space itself which prevented continuous spatial travel there without teleporting.

I guess it's a pretty convoluted idea, and having it be a different realm is a lot cleaner, anyway.

I just always felt that it felt as though their affairs were primarily conducted toward the mainstream universe, and I never got the impression that mainstream Superman was just, like, one of 30 Supermans Darkseid probably regularly fights. It felt like Earth-0 was their universe, the one that they interacted in.
>>
Imma gonna see if I can disentangle the dimensions in the DCM.

Dimensions 1-3 (x,y,z): space
Dimension 4 (t): time
Dimension 5: shit, on one hand, I'd think this would be the dimension that the Fifth World imps can traverse in addition to our own. But you'd think they'd be a dimension higher than the multiverse. Is Dimension 5 the line that multiple universes are laid along, or the one that imps move through?

>>65108959
>So Grant Morrison said Final Crisis was supposed to be an ushering in of the Fifth World.

This is another thing that bothers me. In Final Crisis, they end the Fourth World, and you go, "shit, they're really doing this. It's over. It's the Fifth World now." You never hear about that Fifth World shit again, a few years later the universe reboots anyway, and we have the Fourth World again like nothing happened.

Then again, if that Japanese Dance team were to be the Fifth World Forever People, maybe it's good nothing became of it.

BTW, am I the only one who thought Batman would be revealed to be the Fifth World Mr. Miracle? I mean, he escaped the Omega Sanction and showed the cunning of Miracle, world's best escape artist.
>>
>>65112643
Dimensions 1-3 (x,y,z): space

Dimension 4 (t): time

Dimension 5 (m): the axis along which universes are aligned. If we're using music as an analogy, then they are aligned like the major scale across 6.5 octaves. Or would they be the chromatic scale across 13/3 octaves?
5-D beings like Mxy are 5-D because their bodies possess the m-dimension, meaning that they exist across universes a once, which is why we just see cross-sections of them.

Though Morrison has placed The Phantom Zone in the metaphysical realm in the Underworld, prior to this, I'd think of it as a place trapped "between Dimensions". If alternate universes have discrete coordinates based on discrete vibrational frequencies, the Phantom Zone would be like a note out of tune-- between universes.

Dimension 6- the dimension along which the realms of the gods and Endless exist. The fact that, again, we can only perceive their cross-sections, is what makes their powers so vast compared to ours, and why we cannot conceive of their true natures. Also, the Godwave, which is a field like the gravitational or electromagnetic field, propagates and fluctuates along this dimension, and places where gods exist are excitations in the field. Captain Atom's powers come from the manipulation of fields (the combination of which forms the catch-all "Quantum Field," control over elementary forces), and he has minor access to the Godwave, which is why he is capable of awesome things and can Quantum Jump.

The emotional spectrum colors are also fields, generated by sentient consciousnesses. Just like gravitational or electromagnetic fields, they have an effect on every other particle in the universe, decreasing at a distance by squares. But the capability of sentients to provide this is given from the reservoir behind the Source Wall.
>>
>>65112971

The emotional fields are a gradient that are traditionally in chaos, which means dispersed throughout the universe amongst sentients. A Green Lantern promotes order and decreases entropy by concentrating the will field into herself when she draws on the power to power the ring from the CPB, but it tends to return to equillibrium. Anti-Life is complete order of the field, where all will is concentrated in one. This is the cheapening of the universality of life, and chiefly against will, the center of the life spectrum. It is the death-that-is-life. This is why the Lords of Chaos are a necessary counterbalance against the Lords of Order.
>>
>>65113042
Shit, I gotta go to bed now. Hopefully the thread's still up tomorrow.
>>
>>65113042
This actually works pretty well.

What about how the seven sins are the entities from Earth-3?
>>
>>65100528
Lucifer is above the Endless. I remember reading somewhere in Sandman that Lucifer could tear Dream a new asshole anytime he wanted and there wouldn't be anything Dream could do about it.
>>
>>65114913
>Lucifer tearing Dream's asshole

L-lewd!
>>
>>65101330
So if the ring contains Volthoom's essence, and Jessica Cruz goes down on Lex Luthor while wearing said ring, does that make it gay?
>>
>>65103039
Did you ever actually read War of the Green Lanterns and Wrath of the First Lantern?

The Guardians already had Lantern technology with Krona's gauntlet.

Volthoom in Green Lantern #20 says "I traveled back in time and across universes to witness the creation of this lantern... The great heart." They were already creating the first "modern" Lantern, Volthoom was just watching (and then stole the ring as it was formed).

Then once Volthoom's corrupted ring had been banished to where Volthoom originally came from, the ring is also seen transforming itself, getting rid of the GLC embellishment.

It's pretty obvious both Volthoom's are one and the same.
>>
>>65102744
see >>65115878
>>
>>65114913

That's probably true. BUT the end of Lucifer (or at least the stuff right before the end) is a conversation between God and Lucifer about their nature. They pretty much say that they're figments of human imagination that retroactively were given so much belief-power that they retroactively became the creators they are.

Dream has been established as a meta-concept that can rewrite ALL OF reality with ALL it's gods and concepts (see that one cat issue) as a manifestation of the combined will of the inhabitants of reality. So he would be way above them, or at least in a whole other category.

But Lucifer was made to be above that, to be able to make his own universe B and to be above all rules. So he could probably beat up Dream pretty bad and end all of creation. He could probably kill everybody and everything.
>>
>>65114056
>What about how the seven sins are the entities from Earth-3?

Hmm. I dunno, I've never read that Forever Evil stuff.

I guess the use of the Deadly Sins means that the Judeo-Christian aspects of the DCU are at play, as well as the wizard Shazam, correct?

>>65116843
I guess it's a case of "god making a rock so heavy, he cannot lift it." Or "Jesus microwaving a burrito so hot, he himself cannot eat it."

Sandman created God and Lucifer, and made them so powerful, and retroactively preeminent (due to people believing in them), that they are now more powerful than he is. Fiction being converted into reality.

Speaking of "retcons," how something can be retroactively changed in such a way that we can say "at one point, it was like this, but history changed" never made sense to me. If history change, then the act of changing it never happened, and we could not say "at one point, it was like this instead."

Like, when Pandora tells The Flash that "long ago, some being split the timelines." "Long ago" implies "at a previous point in time," but at no previous point in time could this have occurred, because the act itself changed the entire timeline from beginning to end. It's not like I could travel back in time X years and reach a point before a retcon occurred.

Perhaps these statements make sense is there are not one, but two temporal dimensions? These things didn't happen "long ago" on T1, which has been absolutely altered, but "long ago" on T2, which still records these events.

This may be how it's possible to "remember the Crisis" like Power Girl could, or have a letter from Batdad of the Flashpoint Universe, even though they never occurred on T1.
>>
>>65118419
>>I guess the use of the Deadly Sins means that the Judeo-Christian aspects of the DCU are at play
Oh yes

Phantom Stranger is literally Judas and the Presence has been appearing as a Scottie dog

>as well as the wizard Shazam
Sorta, he was part of the Council of Eternity but the rest of them were dead by the time the Wizard empowered Billy, and this time the Wizard didn't immediately come back as a ghost after he died
>>
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>>65112331
>>65112464
They work the same as Asgard in Marvel.
>>
>>65118419
about time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2nNzNo_Xps
>>
Can some get some screencaps of this thread?
>>
Information bump
>>
>>65118419
It's 5D shit, man.
>>
>>65118419
>Speaking of "retcons," how something can be retroactively changed in such a way that we can say "at one point, it was like this, but history changed" never made sense to me. If history change, then the act of changing it never happened, and we could not say "at one point, it was like this instead."

I always imagine it is some kind of meta-time that is not time at all. The higher beings call it time because we 3D-lifeforms cannot even begin to comprehend something that is outside a causal chain.
>>
>>65118419
>the Judeo-Christian aspects of the DCU are at play
No kidding, the origin of the Lantern Entities are all Biblical stories. I don't have the panel saved but Love was born in the Garden of Eden with Adam&Eve, Ophidian is the snake, the Butcher was born when Cain killed Abel, etc. It's not stated outright but it's very obvious.
>>
>>65081177
I read recently, but I can't remember where, that while Death is the literal manifestation of the concept of death, Nekron is more like a collection of death in the universe, so Nekron needs Death to exist, but Death doesn't need Nekron.

Also something about Nekron being a keeper/king of dead souls? I'm not sure how Lucifer and Hades would fit into it if Nekron was a keeper, but maybe he selects which afterlife they go to?

My own theory would be that while Death is literally death as in people getting killed and dying, Nekron is Comic Book Death and is in charge of the "place" fictional characters occupy when they're "dead", which is why it's such a revolving door.
>>
>>65121929
Isn't Nekron only in charge of their bodies? I seem to remember that Black Lanterns aren't really who they seem to be, probably because the souls have long departed, so they use the bodies' memories to emotionally torture people who were originally close to the person the BL impersonates.
>>
>>65121929
Nekron is that annoying dork that follows the cute chick around and tries to act super interested in her hobbies or her job to seem attractive to her, but fails miserably because she doesn't like him that way.

Typical entourage dork.
>>
>>65079883
Anti-life stands in opposition to all emotion, anon
As green is the most important, pure motivation without drawbacks, it stands in direct opposition to anti-life under the White Light of Life which is all colors
>>
>>65122427
How do the Green will power, Red rage, and Black death interact with The Red, Green and Black?
>>
>>65123355
The Emotional spectrum and the Elementals are completely different and at different levels (Emontional spectrum is universal, elementals are planetary, I believe)
>>
>>65123355
>Black

You mean the Rot?
>>
>>65082399
As anti-life strips all meaning from life, so does anti-death strip all meaning from Death
>>
>>65123355
over on Earth 2 Alan Scott's powered by the Green as well as his own willpower

I don't think we've really seen the green energy tangle with the Green on the main earth
>>
>>65082528
Yes, you faggot. Yes.
>>65086450
Yeah, the cheapening or absence of death
>>65092637
Kirkbride is never not relevant
>>
>>65123948
E2 Green is different from E0 Green.
E2 is Life, E0 is Plants
>>
I just want to remind everybody that the source wall is at the center of the multiverse. The map is inside out so as to actually make sense on a 2d poster.
Source: Metron during Alan Moore's Saga of the Swamp Thing
>>
>>65118419
There is narrative time and storyline time, man.
>>
>>65123698
Read Saga of the Swamp Thing you fucking casual
>>
>>65125232
In the new 52 it is clearly an earth thing, not a universe thing.
>>
>>65125362
Just because things get retconed doesn't mean they're not canon
>>
>>65123948
I cannot fucking wait for Alan and Hal to meet.
>>
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>>65126079
I'm chomping at the bit for some JL/JS crossover action, but I'm the most excited for those two
>>
>>65126424
Barry meeting Jay will be great.
I wonder how they'll handle Katar and Kendra.
Arthur and Marella should be interesting.

But nothing holds a candle to the hype for Hal and Alan.
Also, for the record, considering we're in the fifth world now, Kyle shouldn't be a New God. He should be a NEW New God, DCU man as god as the Fifth World should be. The second I heard about Godhead, I knew it would be the only thing equalling my hype for Multiversity, and the climax to HickVengers.
>>
>>65126545
I want a re do of the Flash of Two World's cover with Barry/Jay. That's my biggest hope.
>>
>>65126582
well we got this Scribblenauts version, but yeah I would love an actual retake on it
>>
>>65126582
Drawn by who? I love Manapul, but I'd rather see something less stylized for something so iconic. fuck Brett Booth
>>
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>>65126545
Yeah, I'm looking forward to all the meet ups but Hal & Alan more than anything else

Godhead sounds pretty rad, really curious what they plan on doing with Kyle
>>
>>65126642
I think I'd like to see Ivan Reis take a shot at it
>>
>>65125410
This sentence sums up the New 52
>>
>>65126707
Batman was killed by Darkseid even though Final Crisis didn't happen, and Darkseid's only been to earth once.

Maybe it happened during the boom tube mistakingly sending them to Apokolips, but the who thing is ridiculous.
>>
>>65126689
Thinking of his stuff, especially Red Racer, in Multiversity, I can get behind that.
>>
>>65126810
Red Racer was adorable, I bet his Jay would be off the chart kawaii

I think he did draw him on a cover or two now that I think about it
>>
>>65081177

I thought that Nekron itself said that it existed before life. How could it be Death or even an aspect of death if this was the case? He is come kind of manifestation of nothing that wants to return everything back to the peace of nothing.
>>
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>>65116843
>They pretty much say that they're figments of human imagination that retroactively were given so much belief-power that they retroactively became the creators they are.

It wasn't so clear as that. God only says that he was "infinite and eternal, but shaped by forces external to me". I always felt it was probably an oblique reference to the writers, because things tend to get meta at that level, but I don't think there's a conclusive answer.

If he was created/shaped by belief, it does raise the question of why the belief of all the aliens in the multiverse is worth less than a few billion people on Earth.

All this being said, I'm not sure how much of Vertigo is canon.
>>
>>65127600
>If he was created/shaped by belief, it does raise the question of why the belief of all the aliens in the multiverse is worth less than a few billion people on Earth.
Because Earth is the keystone of the universe and the multiverse, and the place where Life first began.
>>
bump for interest
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