how do you hold your utensils? Its not an autistic question,

I bet OP eats spaghetti with a spoon.
The raging faggot that he is.

I hold my fork like the picture on the right even though I grew up in a ghetto broken home and became homeless as a teenager,

I don't think I've ever seen someone hold the fork like the pic on the left.

>holding it like a pencil

Middle class.

Left is pig disgusting and I despise it, however the only instances I've ever seen it are the children of a couple of middle class households.

Mind you right is only occasional appropriate, fork as a spear is the most "correct" usage.

>>7124628
Both of those are wrong though, a fork is for piercing, not scooping.

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Yeah, they're both wrong. The one on the right only looks mildly less disabled.

>>7124641
God, I wish that fork was my cock.

Neither looks particularly comfy, but I'd go with the right. Left looks ham-fisted as fuck and right looks like a very loose precision grip without enough stability.

I tend to hold my fork with the index and middle finger on one side, thumb on the other. Prongs could be facing either way (thumb or little finger) depending on what I'm eating and how.

Knife is always held between my thumb and middle finger, sometimes including the ring finger, with my index finger extended down the blunt end of the blade.

>>7124649
I've seen grown adults and kids, all men, all from a small town in the Midwest, hold their fork like the left. They are mt dew drinking people too. That habit is usually reflected in whites rather than Latinos and minorities demographics >>7124635

particularly Ive noticed the right to be prevalent around areas of commerce, military and education.


again, it reflects a few things about the person. flock of the feather.

>>7124668
fucking hell..
also like the right side of OPs pic.

Spies were caught because they used to ask people to sing the entire Star Spangled Banner.

No American knows the other 3 verses, hell, almost all Americans don't even know there are more than one verse.

>>7124665
This is the right way to do it. It's not even a case of etiquette. Things like this should come naturally to humans as it's simply the most comfortable and useful way to hold them.

>>7124672
ironically, surgeons use pencil like grip to make precision cuts.

>>7124686
How is that ironic?

>>7124628
My best friend I holds his utensils like that, even though both his parents are outstanding doctors and we'll educated. That just shows that his parents weren't home that much to properly educate him and his siblings. Having basic etiquette does show something about a person, just don't make nasty assumptions like people being from the ghetto for not eating properly

>>7124676
It can be, big boy...

>>7124679
I'm from a lower class family in a shitey town and I've never done either of those. I hold my fork the correct way and I've never been taught or watched anybody else in order to learn. You probably have a genetic condition characterised by dysfunctional motor control if you don't naturally hold your cutlery in the most sensible way.

I can't watch Americans eat because of this. Both look uncomfortable and impractical as fuck

>>7124686
I would hope so. It requires more precision and less force than piercing food with a blunt fork.

>>7124628
>Small behaviors like utensil holding reflect the persons origin. This is how spies were caught during wartime. It also reflects the persons class and possibly intelligence in understanding Etiquette or discipline.
This is true, although it was much truer in the past. The Baby Boomers rebelled against many of the traditional class "tells", so their children grew up without them. It's no longer so easy to spot someone's class by their table manners, their grammar or their shoes.

And as far as utensils are concerned, Americans eat many meals with their hands these days (sandwiches, pizza, fries and other finger food), so less attention is paid to utensil use. Few Americans can even manage the fork in the left and and knife in the right, which used to be the standard etiquette.

>>7124716
>Few Americans can even manage the fork in the left and and knife in the right, which used to be the standard etiquette.

I can't do that, but everything else is fine. I have kind of mixed-handedness though

>>7124691
is your friend doing well in life? Sometimes it doesn't reflect total intelligence but if hes in his 20s and hasn't corrected or took in some cue about it, it reflects his motivation to learn new certain things as an adult that would prove to be vital overtime, particularity in areas of research or medicine. Some doctors don't bother to continue updating knowledge in the field and you can probably pin point or predict the behavior in looking for clues like holding a fork. That's the correlation, but its not absolute.

also
>just don't make nasty assumptions like people being from the ghetto for not eating properly
you see the ham fisted fork holding more prevalent in white people of working class in rural areas than minorities largely coming from urban areas. The reason is because cities are known for commerce, education, and military. So dinning rules are rubbed off into surrounding areas.

>>7124716
>fork in the left
Probably due to a lot of food not requiring a knife, so naturally your only utensil sits in your dominant hand. Might even have something to do with immigration and soft foreign food - pasta, curry etc.

Holding down food also requires more strength than cutting, so is the job people naturally want to do with their dominant hand.

Why does such arbitrary etiquette matter though? I understand rules to do with politeness or hygiene, but not this.

I hold the fork with my right hand

>>7124706
> I hold my fork the correct way and I've never been taught or watched anybody else in order to learn.

thats really hard to believe. Because my experience in seeing all males, an entire 2 generations from a relatives family hold their fork in the ham fisted style. The town is known for its production of Seagram liquor, railroad/gas transport, and farm.

really think back on how you learned it.

>>7124730
>Why does such arbitrary etiquette matter though? I understand rules to do with politeness or hygiene, but not this.
It was a class tell. A way to tell the rich from the poor so the poor could easily be excluded from rich social situations. That's why at a formal dinner back in the day there were so many utensils, and you were expected to know which goes with what course. If you didn't it was a dead giveaway you didn't grow up going to formal dinners, and thus did not belong at one.

>>7124730
>Why does such arbitrary etiquette matter though? I understand rules to do with politeness or hygiene, but not this.

its clues to the individuals thought pattern and predictive behavior, primarily in learning new things as menial as fork placement. read the op.

This also stretches in all cultures that have hierarchy based on currency and social sets in a first world or development setting: india, japan, england, arab states ect.

>>7124752
The same way I learned to hold a pen, by evolving that ability over the past several million years. It's likely that your family is legitimately retarded. It's also possible that they learned the wrong behaviour from a retarded ancestor because stupid people are more impressionable.

>>7124728
Well, he worked in a couple of movies as an animator, but it's been a year since he worked in a movie/project. He doesn't seem to care at all about etiquette, and it's sometimes embarrassing to eat out with him, but most times I don't mind.
> if hes in his 20s and hasn't corrected or took in some cue about it, it reflects his motivation to learn new certain things as an adult
I agree with you, he isn't the type of person that embraces change or looks to learn new things. He is mostly interested in his work and vidya, so everything else is mundane to him. That's what I like about him, or should I say I admire. It's a way of showing determination and focus on what he loves.
>The reason is because cities are known for commerce, education, and military.
I never thought about it that way. You are quite alright, anon

ITT: full autism ahead

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>>7124730
>Why does such arbitrary etiquette matter though? I understand rules to do with politeness or hygiene, but not this.

its gives away predictive behavior in relation to certain intelligence in adaptation or foundation. Something that menial is telling of the person. If the person holding his fork in the left hamfist way and going into a STEM field is very telling of his behavior of willing to not lean new things and incorporate them to be second nature.

same menial clue could be applied to pic related as well. Would you hire someone that would be making important decisions and analyzing things if they hold a writing utensil like that?


>>7124777
>by evolving that ability over the past several million years.

pic related thats you.

>>7124788
im half Mexican (or native american), so i notice alot of shit from experience.

We call the left side "cowboy spoon" because there's a some old painting of a cowboy eating beans like that and it is taken to mean that if you hold a spoon like that you are an illiterate brute only suited for manual labor and have no class and are stupid

>can also substitute 'retard spoon'

>>7124768
>This also stretches in all cultures that have hierarchy based on currency and social sets in a first world or development setting: india, japan, england, arab states ect.
It's in America, too, but it's less codified. And people get really angry if you bring it up. What you drink is a tell, for example.

Lower and working class drink soda, macrobrew beer, milk, juice drinks, coffee with cream and sugar and wines with a fair bit of residual sugar. If they're drinking "champagne" it's something on the order of Cold Duck.

Middle class drinks diet soda, bottled water, smoothies, craft beer, cocktails, dry New World wine and fair trade coffee with 2% milk or almond/soy milk. If they're drinking "champagne" it's usually a cremant, cava, prosecco or California "champagne". And mimosas at brunch.

Upper middle drinks sparkling water, espresso based coffee drinks, Scotch, young Old World wines and imported beer. If they're drinking champagne it's probably Cliquot yellow label or Moet White Star, unless it's a very special occasion.

The upper class will drink tap water, because they have nothing to prove. They're currently obsessed with good burgundies, because the sommeliers at the restaurants they go to have been steering them in that direction for the last decade, but they'll still go for a good Bordeaux or super Tuscan every now and then. Whatever wine they're drinking has the appropriate bottle age on it. They tend to avoid sweet drinks (and sweets) in general, but will drink a Bellini if it's summertime and they end up meeting friends at a Cipriani restaurant. If they're into wine they have their own cellars, and have already accepted the fact they'll never drink it all, so it'll end up being part of their estate. They own an espresso machine, but never use it because it's more trouble than they want to deal with.

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>>7124869
Might you be referring to the picture I have attached to my post?
>retard spoon
Truly a revolting sight, although I do suggest you even then do not resort to such language. It is below our class.

>>7124801
The difference is practicality vs etiquette. Holding a pen like that is imprecise and impractical and indicates that there is something wrong with the person. Not seeing the importance of arbitrary etiquette is not indicative of anything wrong with the person or an unwillingness to learn.

What makes you think intelligence goes hand-in-hand with the desire to practice useless, arbitrary customs? Learning how to cook is important since it allows you to be healthy and self-sufficient while enjoying your food. Learning to hold your knife and fork in the wrong hands is not.

>>7124920

All rules of etiquette are based in practicality. no exceptions.

>>7124914
close but no cigar. It's a campfire scene IIRC

>>7124928
It is not practical to hold your less used and easier utensil in your dominant hand.

>>7124914
OP here.

its forgivable for children. but seeing grown adults and then children taking after is no excuse. it reflects working class and rural areas where commerce, education and military is not dominant.

>>7124912
you described my life as an upper class.

Since my parents generally see the marketing tactics of clothes and food, we usually just by a half of a cow and clothes from wall mart considering name brand and generic both come from the same place. We barley eat out because its just cheaper and fun to cook. Saved a shit ton of money that can go to gambling and or education or investment research to make more money.

>>7124962
There's a sharp division between those who grew up with money and those who didn't, then made lots of it themselves. Those who grew up with lots of money will spend it on quality shit, but they're turned off by too much flash. Because they have nothing to prove they're just as happy not spending their money as they are spending it. They have no problem driving old cars, wearing old clothes and living in an old house. They don't go out to eat so often because they can afford to buy pretty much the same ingredients good restaurants get.

Self made money has their house custom built, leases high end European cars and dines out a lot. Restaurant owners love them.

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>>7124912
I don't where you derive your sources but surely that is not the case across board. It sounds good though. I've seen lower to upper middle interchange on all the shit you just listed.

>>7124962
Nice lies bro.
>Wall Mart
>Barley
Wal-mart.....barely, upper class education huh? My fucking middle class parents buy half a cow. Wal-mart clothes may come from the same materials/countries but its mostly cheaper construction and less stylish. That is not always the case but for the majority, yes.

>>7124986
I know self-made people with money that behave as you describe people who grew up with money. Again as I said to the others. That surely isn't it across the board.

>>7124941
Germany here. Children learn how to use forks, spoons and knives like shown in OP in kindergarten (age 4-6) and are encouraged to continue doing so at home.

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So /biz/ is taking jabs & /fa/ is about to elbow drop the Walmart richie; who else is gonna weigh in? /b/ is still fapping....

/pol/ your downfall is that you can't go 3 posts without resorting to using niggular armaments. Never change.

Will /mu/ pls vocaroo the complete Star Spangled Banner?

Thank you /kraut/ for the infoblurb concerning young children.

Stay tuned you lovely cum so/ck/s!

left is how they do it in movies to show being working class or otherwise outside the realm of polite society. i do it sometimes just for fun i guess.

i hate being judgemental above all other things so i don't care what you do.

>>7125003
Just observation. I've had one of those weird lives where I've hung out with some of the richest and poorest people in the country, while coming from a squarely middle class family. I've seen some shit.

>>7124628
I don't recall ever being taught to hold a fork correctly, I've always just done it like that because you have much more control over it when held with your fingers. I've only seen people hold a fork like the pic on the left in movies.

>>7125126

Southerner here, I remember back in high school there was a girl in my friends group that held their fork in a fist like the left pick, everyone would make airplane sounds when she did it and make fun of her.

Nothing particularly southern about it, its not the normal way here.

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>holding your fork like a pleb
>not knowing how to wield a knife properly

I've seen it a lot at the college I studied at in Kentucky. People kept burping during their meals, too. Like, fuck, it was like entering a cave of pigs.

>"Oh my god, you're like so cultured, the way you sit at the table and eat."

>>7124665
>fork in left hand

>>7124801
>something that menial is telling of a person
To put so much stock in something considered menial is telling of a person.

>if someone is holding like on the left and going into a STEM field then they are probably not willing to learn new things
Is the way you hold a fork or the pursuit of a career in the hard sciences more telling of someone's willingness to learn new things?

>would you hire someone to make important decisions if they hold their fork in an uncouth way?
I would not send them to many dinner parties, but that has no real considerable reflection on their abilities elsewhere. It just looks uncouth.

>>7124912
Where does tea fit in to that?

>>7125151
>To put so much stock in something considered menial is telling of a person.
Perhaps, but image counts in everything. It even works on a subconscious level, so even those who claim not to be effected by it are to at least some degree.

Things like grooming, how one dresses and table manners are things people judge each other by. And an employee is a representative of your organization. If he comes off boorish and uncouth guess how that makes your company look? Like a bunch of uncouth boors.

That can have a direct effect on business, especially in situations where business lunches and dinners are common.

>>7125151
look at the pic of the child holding a crayola and imagine thats an adult holding an ink pen ask yourself if you would see them doing research in computer science.

>>7125157
Tea is more regional than class based. In iced form the further south you go the sweeter it gets, and the more common it becomes. (I'd say the sweeter you drink it the lower your class is likely to be). Drinking green tea for its health benefits would be very middle class. Drinking hot tea is kind of Anglophilic, and that shit is rampant in the middle and upper middle classes.

>>7125174
It's stupid because it's impractical and imprecise, not because of etiquette. It is not comparable to holding your knife in your right hand, which is harder, in order to practice arbitrary discipline. You can be a disciplined person while focusing it on things which matter.

OP is a stupid liberal that overthinks everything.

>>7125174
>ink pen
redneck detected

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>>7124914
Mobile editors are garbage. I'll make a better one later.

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Do Americans use these at all? Do they know how to use them?

>>7125207
step dad had alot of them. going 600 and up. theyre for show though.

>>7125173
Yeah, I wouldn't send him to fancy dinner parties where people put too much stock in how a person holds a fork, but if he does his job better than anyone else then that counts for more than eating with your fork in the wrong position. If someone comes in badly dressed, smelly and sits down to eat fucking spaghetti-O's with their hands then yes, that becomes an issue because it becomes disruptive. But if you are going to tell me that how someone holds a fork is of a greater impact than how they perform their job then you are putting the cart before the horse.

>>7125174
You misunderstand, if a person proves to me that they can do good research in computer science then I don't give a shit if they hold their pen in a strange way. There are geniuses with cerebral palsy that couldn't hold their pen with their hand in they tried. It's one thing to say that such things are indicators of low intelligence, but another altogether to ignore actual evidence to the contrary because you don't like how they hold things.

>>7125207
we didn't invent the ballpoint pen so we could waste our time with cutesy fountain pens.

buy a package of 50 plastic pens for next to nothing, have an uncomfortable experience with them, and throw them away when they dry up.

that's the american way.

>>7125207
My dad uses one, but not many people do these days. They're mostly seen as a novelty

>>7125217
>But if you are going to tell me that how someone holds a fork is of a greater impact than how they perform their job then you are putting the cart before the horse.
I would not tell you that, but in a competitive market any strike against you can bring you down. In a field of qualified candidates the guy who looks boorish will sink to the bottom of the heap.

>>7125225
I suppose you hold your like the left side in OPs picture?

>>7125226
It's a basic writing utensil. Literally the most basic you can get. How can it be seen as a novelty?

>>7125233
If everyone was equally qualified and one ate in that manner then it would put him behind the pack yes. Would you disregard a more highly qualified candidate because he held his utensils in a boorish way? I don't disagree that someone wanting to make the best first impression should refrain from eating like that, but in the end it's pretty inconsequential.

How do you cut things if you hold the knife like a pencil? It seems like it would be really awkward to get the flat of the blade horizontal against the plate.

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>>7125252
Simple: Highly qualified people have table manners. Lowly qualified people do not. Easy as that.

>>7124682
>other 3 verses
>it's true

Well I'll be damned

>>7125142
>fork in left hand
There are these things called Left Handed people.

>>7125257
Without knowing the job, you can't really say that. I know you'd like to, but you can't. The field of research in computer science, to use the previous example, has fuck all to do with table manners. It is easier to suck up to people with good table manners, but not required. Such a statement like the one in your post is again putting the cart before the horse, even if you don't want to admit it.

>>7125252
>in the end it's pretty inconsequential.
I would argue that it isn't. If this guy is on a career path that will hopefully land him in management those under him will not respect him the same way they would someone who comes off as more polished. So he will be a less effective manager. I've seen this. They rough looking guys who were killer at their jobs only rise so high. The slick looking guys who are very good at their jobs are the ones who end up in the executive suite.

>>7125273
It's easy to assume that people who visited a good school were brought up by well mannered parents. And yes, that even counts for computer science. Actually, it especially counts for computer science. Think about it.

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>>7125192
>drinking hot tea
>Anglophilic

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>>7125142
Yes?

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Like this.

Thumb goes over, not under as in the OP.

Gives more control compared that sissy-tier grip that's considered "proper".

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I don't have any cutlery in my house right now but pic related, I held the air like I hold each piece of cutlery

>>7124665
So how do you hold it when not stabbing into something? Like spaghetti for instance? Do you also deliver the food into your mouth with the fork upside down?

>>7124628
My father is pretty intelligent, he has a bachelors in engineering and a masters in computer science. He works in a lab for a sub contractor for the United states navy working on subs with nuclear reactors. In short, a very smart and capable man. He holds his cutlery more like the left than right, he grew up very poor, ham fists it when he's cutting meat then switches to his dominant hand when eating. I think that it's mostly a product of environment and habit more than intelligence.

>>7125457
"Proper etiquette" is a social construct created by the aristocracy to make themselves look like nancies in order to differentiate themselves from the "lower classes".

>>7125472
More like to weed out members of the lower classes who aspire to become one of them.

>>7125357
>literally holding it as if you don't have opposable thumbs

Ape / 8

>>7125444
Yeah, it's fine to temporarily turn it upwards to transport something if you literally can't keep it balanced on the back. Only the most uptight of the uptight will insist on slowly stabbing petit pois on one at a time.

The main point is that the primary function of a fork is stabbing, so the tines are kept in stabbing orientation. If you're having a dish that's mostly going to be scooped, you'd probably present it with a spoon.

>>7125305
What are those spoon and fork for int he middle top? Middle-handed people?

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>>7125405
>I don't have any cutlery in my house right now
>air cutlery photos

This amuses me more than it should.

>>7125582
Well desu, petit pois would be easier to eat with a spoon.

>>7125496
>>7125472
Like most things, it was more just random fashions and copying what famous people happened to do than anything thought out.

This is kinda interesting:
http://leitesculinaria.com/1157/writings-the-uncommon-origins-of-the-common-fork.html

>>7125594
Dessert.

>>7125612
For which hand?

>>7125655
Are you one of those filthy bi-arms?

>>7125267
Actually holding the fork in the left hand is favored by right handed people.
In other words the majority.
I know because I hold it with the right hand and always have to switch the cutlery around when I'm eating out.

>>7125204
ayyyyyyyy lmao

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>>7125405
>whisk
what the fuck am I even looking at here

>>7125237
Because no one uses a fountain pen anymore dipshit. Everyone uses a pencil, mechanical or otherwise (maybe even a lead holder) or a ballpoint pen.

What, do you use a quill?

That being said I'd like to get my hands on a Lamy, but I never use a writing utensil because its the CURRENT YEAR and I use a keyboard primarily. No I dont take notes and yes I forget shit all the time and recall it later at the most inconvenient of times.

Inconvenient only because its during pleasure hours rather than working ones.

obligitory hipster trash comment goes here

>>7126341
Fountain pens are great though, the varying thickness and slight sideways resistance makes good writing look great.

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My cousin is dating a dude who holds his utensils like the first example in OP's picture. He chews with his mouth open and smacks his lips like how horses do when they have a mouthful of watermelon or something equally as slobbery sounding.

I look forward to the zombie apocalypse so that I can trip his fat ass and watch him get ate. (Provided he's got enough grey matter in his skull to entice them to attack in the first place.

>>7124644
verified old money

>>7124644
>>7126471

When did the Western World get so anal about table manners? I mean, its understandable for the Japs to do it because they are like that about everything.

>>7126480
It's really not that important except to a select few who want to judge others about silly things.

As long as you're not making a mess or an ass of yourself while you are eating, almost no one cares how you hold the utensils you eat with.

>>7126480
on knifecrime island, where murrica got most of its hangups, it happened around the time of the industrial revolution, when large segments of the population were suddenly capable of accumulating wealth through non-hereditary means and existing class indicators such as "has a lot of property" or "wears expensive clothes" became suddenly much less reliable

although it was a thing in parts of italy well before that

>>7124628
I hold it like the right and my table manners are still terrible.

>>7124628
the always way, mainly because my dad called me out on holding it the never way when i was 15 or something. and the fucking asshole chews with his mouth open like a fucking dog. and thats only one of the few things he does that pisses me off

>>7124912
>2015
>still drinking super tuscans

>>7126508

Same, it doesn't matter how I'm holding the fork because I'm usually heaping disgusting amounts of food into my mouth at a lightning pace. If anyone looked the last thing they would notice is the fork.

my sister's father is jewish (lol)
his mother damn near BEAT ME with her table etiquette training.

"Place the fork and knife diagonally across your plate to signify that you are done eating. "

>>7125142

All the fork has to do is hold the thing down while you cut and then transport it to your mouth.

If you cut with your off hand, you're gonna be clumsy as shit. Your dominant hand needs to do the cutting.

>>7126512
For folks who stocked up their cellars over the last couple decades many of those wines are just becoming ready to drink now.

Don't forget shit rich people like doesn't change nearly as fast as pop culture because they think long term. They didn't buy those cases of wine because they were trendy. They bought them because they were good, and could easily cellar them for the 15-20 years it would take for them to become great. So they're drinking them now.

Hold up, are people for real so cack handed they can't just swap utensils and saw or stab at food without major malfunction?

Use your hands guys, damn. It's one of the main things that separates us from lesser animals.

>>7126666
>swapping hands
>americans think this is ok
jesus fucking christ

>>7126671
No no, I'm not talking about that strange holdover. I just mean being able to use a knife and fork either way equally effectively.

On the scale of punching things to penning calligraphy, cutlery usage seems like a reasonable middle ground in which to expect competence.

Goddamn, the pretentiousness of this thread...Just don't spill your food all over yourselves, and you're good.

>>7126480
Japs have shit table manners. They're like animals that happen to be holding some sticks.

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>tfw weird hybrid style

>>7126715
Oh ffs, why is the picture wrong side up

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>>7124628
Tfw as a child you saw other children eat as depicted in the left and when you tried to eat like them you physically could not. Some people don't have a choice. Anyone else here /gianthands?

As far as I'm concerned, about the worse table ettiquette that I've encountered was someone who double dipped their corn chips into the hot sauce at Mexican restaurants.

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/ck/ I swear to God
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRL8xVjXK_w

Anyone that holds silverware in an improper manner should be fucking gassed.

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Forks are used exclusively in the left hand.
Knives are used exclusively in the right hand.

If your eating style ever has to involve juggling utensils or crossing your arms over the plate, it's objectively wrong.

>>7124628

>this is how spies were caught during wartime

That's because Americans held their fork in their right hand and their knife in the left without realizing that Germans do the opposite.

>>7127399
Correct.

>>7124628
I dont think I've ever met anyone that holds their fork like on the left

are there RL barbarians?

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>all the plebs in this thread

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ITT: people who don't realize that

> You hold your fork in your left hand, no exceptions.
> Etiquette is about practicality and blending in with everyone else.
> Not knowing etiquette shows that you are of low class, no exceptions.
> Only poultry, shellfish or fingerfood (granted, there is nothing else on your plate that requires utensils) may be eaten with your hands.
> You are judged by your manners, even if people act like the setting is informal.

>>7126622
Cutting is relatively easy bro. The serrations of the blade do the work for you, no force needed. They also serve to hold the knife in place once the initial incision is made so minimal accuracy is needed. The fork hand tends to do considerably more work, e.g. piercing the same food with blunt prongs, holding it down etc which take somewhat more force than the knife hand. Also consider dishes like pasta, risotto etc which require little to no cutting, for which you would use your dominant hand to hold the tool which does literally all the work. Even some tender meets can be cut/separated with the fork's edge, while the knife acts as a holder at most. With literally any dish though, you will be using your fork for every single bite and your knife only for some.

I suspect this may be a cultural thing to do with the types of food we eat. Maybe you live somewhere where people eat a lot of tough cuts of meat all the time, meaning your knife does lots of work. Either way, it seems to me that the function of etiquette is to judge people's class on their discipline, i.e. their willingness and ability to do things the hard way. Thus, it stands to reason that the "proper" way to hold your knife and fork (fork in left, knife in right) would be the least practical.

>>7127506
>Etiquette is about practicality
I strongly disagree. Since lower class people can now earn wealth, etiquette is about separating people who's intelligence bought them wealth from those who's wealth bought them intelligence. If etiquette was about practicality, most people who aren't stupid would pick it up pretty easily, if not naturally. It would serve no purpose for judging people's class or discipline since it would be the easiest way to do things.

>>7124719
Do people not do this? I'm American and I've never seen anything different.

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>>7127506

>left hand

>>7127520

I can hardly begin to explain how retarded this sounds, but goddamnit will I try.

Your notion that anyone, who is reasonably intelligent, can just pick something up and be incredibly proficient at it is beyond stupid. A skill has to be taught to someone and that person might expand on it. This is why you don't see regular Joes becoming chemists or master swordsmen just because it supposedly comes "naturally".

Also, you'll find that plenty of people who became incredibly succesful in their lifetime still know etiquette. World leaders and high ranking officers, for example. Why? Because they realize it's a necessity to fit in a certain class.

Meanwhile, you've got the half-assed notion that you would somehow be better than someone of a higher standing by not being proficient at something.

>>7127708
>Master swordsmen and chemists
There's a world of difference there mate. Great apes and even birds use tools, almost without thinking, to access food. A human should definitely intuit holding the utensil which does the most work in their dominant hand. We aren't talking computer science or neurosurgery.

>Also, you'll find that plenty of people who became incredibly succesful in their lifetime still know etiquette. World leaders and high ranking officers, for example. Why? Because they realize it's a necessity to fit in a certain class.

This is true. There is nothing which excludes an upper class person with good etiquette from being proficient in a given field or a good person in general, but this is besides my point.

>Meanwhile, you've got the half-assed notion that you would somehow be better than someone of a higher standing by not being proficient at something.

Great strawman mate. Never said anything of the sort, rather, was defending against attacks to the contrary i.e. not holding your utensils in the wrong hands makes you an imbecile. Good for anyone who can be bothered. Would be great if you could prove me wrong by quoting where I attacked anyone, regardless of class or etiquette.

>>7127708
To expand on my point, if practicality had no bearing on which hand you hold your fork in, then 50% would still hold it in the left. It would be no suitable measure of class.

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Knife on left hand

fork on right hand

If you need to switch hands in the middle of eating you're a fucking mongrel

I'm American by the way

>>7127708
"class" is a social construct created out of the need for exclusivity. things like natural born skills that make you better at certain professions is not. etiquette is a completely learned trait that requires no actual skill other than memorizing what "proper" etiquette is.
youre a fucking fool if you think using which hand to hold your fork relates to natural born traits like intelligence or athleticism

>>7127755
This statement right here to be quite frank with you my good man.

>>7126480
>When did the Western World get so anal about table manners?
Somewhere in the 19th century.

My friend and his autistic mongoloid manchild little brother hold their utensils like the pic on the left.

It's weird too. They're picky about what they eat but they both are waaaay obese.

baka senpai

>>7124665
>tomato on pineapple

REEEEEEE

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>>7127506
>Etiquette is about practicality
Endless platitudes is pragmatic for no man.

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>>7124706
>I've never been taught or watched anybody else in order to learn.
are you a wilderness baby who grew up with no other humans around? are you literally blind?

no. no, of course not. you're just a retard

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>>7125305
>mfw my family is firmly middle-class and I still know all of these
Going clockwise from the first glass on the left:
>White wine glass
>Red wine glass
>Champagne glass
>Cordial/Sherry glass
>Appetizer fork
>Soup spoon
>[Salad knife is absent]
>Place knife
>Charger plate
>Relevé plate
>Entree plate
>Soup bowl
>Dinner fork
>Salad fork
>Bread plate
>Butter spreader
>Salt cellar
>Salt spoon
>Dessert spoon
>Dessert fork

So dd none of you get a proper education as a child or what? As far as formal dining goes this is a pretty basic meal.
>Appetizer
>Soup
>Salad
>Relevé
>Dessert

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>fork in left hand

>>7125142
>fork in left hand
What kind of degenerate holds a fork with their left hand?

Do all Americans have crippled, t-rex off hands that make fine motor control impossible or something? You're just jabbing and sawing, you should be able to do it equally well either way unless you're functionally retarded.

>>7128519
I'm not saying I knew instinctively how to use a knife and fork, but given that I knew how, I would instinctively use my dominant hand to use the utensil which does the most work. You're a twat if you didn't get that from my post, but we know that already since you like anime.

>>7128655
>Americunt detected

>>7127493
>implying nips aren't uncultured savages

>>7126449
How pathetic can you be to wish death on someone because of how they eat? Go get a grip, holy shit.

>>7129427
You underestimate just how annoying a mouth breather's loud ass, animal-like eating can be.

>>7124628
agreed,

i hate motherfuckers who can't hold their cutlery properly, and positively want to KILL those degenerates that chew with their FUCKING MOUTH OPEN.

>>7125257
no.

ive seen rich/educated with no table manners, and poor/uneducated with immaculate manners.

>>7129427
>>7129433

this.

dont eat with your mouth open or make loud eating noises.

it quite possibly might end up in someone fucking killing you. im not even joking.

>>7128408
Christ I thought they were some weird eggs

>>7129519
>>7128408

oh shit.
cannot unsee.

REEEEEEEEEEEEE

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>>7129433
>>7129504
>>7129515
Entitlement over other peoples behavior like this just makes the feast all the sweeter.

>>7129433
There are alot of things that are annoying but they shouldn't be killed for doing something you don't like my man. Try to relax.

>>7126519
Except that's wrong, you place them parallel to each other with the handles towards you

>>7129551
There's a difference between wishing for something and thinking it should happen though. I wish Jennifer Garner would give me a sloppy blowjob, but I don't think she should be forced to.

Anyone else suffer from tremors? Eating with company is literal hell, trying to get the food in your mouth without making a fool of yourself.

>>7124912
work in wine for retail and will absolutely confirm the "champagne" but the middle class is drifting fast toward semi sweet and sweet new world reds. And I think the upper middle does as much dry new world as they do the old, or more so than old worlds. Or at least thats what I notice where I sell

and with beeer I know plenty of middle and upper middle that stick with their favorite macrobeer for life, though they are almost always in their early 50s or older so that could have alot to do with it

The real reason for "fork always in the left hand" "etiquette" is so that we can more readily identify who is a stuck up snob and ignore the bastard.

>>7129936
ironically snobbish

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>>7125357

>>7126519
>"Place the fork and knife diagonally across your plate to signify that you are done eating. "

This is correct. It's actually the way that you signal to the waiter that you're finished with your meal and want the plate taken away. Granted, it seems to only apply in Europe but it's a habit so I do it all the time.

If you are putting your utensils down but you're not finished eating, you put the fork on the left side of the plate, with the handle resting on the table, and the knife on the other side.

It was very efficient, and we never had to be bothered with waiters asking "are you finished?? Do you need a box? How are we doing over here?? still workin' on it?" Like bitch go away my knife and fork aren't on the same side of my plate yet.

>>7130039

On a number of occasions, waiters have tried to take my plate while I was still eating out of it!

I don't know how they can see you sitting there eating with your fork or spoon in your hand and food on the plate and jump to the conclusion that you are somehow finished eating.

>>7130086
That's shitty restaurant service.

It doesn't happen at nice restaurants. By definition. As in, if waiters are consistently misreading the cues, that makes it a bad restaurant.

This is what michelin guides are for, people. In case you were wondering. Yes, the food has to be good. But there are other things.

>>7130093

It mainly seems to happen in popular chain non-fast food restaurants.

On some occasions it was because they brought out the main course only a couple of minutes after the salad and I was still eating the salad.

Most of the timeIt's usual, though, it is while eating with a group. I'm pretty slow about eating and often the last one finished. Some waiters seem to think that if everyone else is finished, then I should not finish my meal.

In other words, it is that the waiters have not been properly trained to do their job.

>>7127493
Ever used a Korean pair of chopsticks?

Shit's fucked.