Western Indie brands continued

Anyone getting anythingfrom Lady Sloth's casual line? I like the simplicity of the designs, I just don't like her prints.

I couldn't post this on my phone earlier, but here's the link to the indie brand list... some of it seems to have been updated. If you "request" an edit, the owner will get around to it

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OxEPf0lbGUmhPJhUq68qrPq-0ngp9t6lrEEcGKd0I8I/edit#gid=0

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>>9575788
No, but I need to order some of her underskirts; they're very affordable and I've bought from her before with lots of good vibes.

>>9575788
I'm thinking about getting one or two pieces because they are cute for everyday wear, and the price is fantastic, but im not sure if shipping cost will make it not worth it to the US?

>>9575834
Her shipping costs are pretty reasonable. Obviously it'll depend on weight, but check out her other items for an idea of the cost.

>>9575478
An updated list of Indie brands would be great, a lot of ones I see in old guides are out of business.

What's unreasonable pricing for an indie brand?

It was asked in the saged thread what people were interested in from indie brands.

To bring that back up, I'm looking for Lolita vests. Mostly in pastels to go with sweet skirts.

>>9578121
It depends on what the product in question is. For resin or other costume jewelry, I'm not willing to pay more than $30-40 for a piece. For a JSK, skirt or OP, I think that anywhere from $100-200 is pretty reasonable, depending on the material, print, design, and skill of the maker.

>>9578073
I'm working on one but it's mostly American brands since that's where I live and what I know

>>9578145

>$100 - $200
I hope you aren't talking about prints with those prices

>>9578166
or a custom fit or design :|

>>9578133
Only indie brand making vests that I can think of is Black Ribbon, and they're more corset like. They all seem to be gothic or classic though anon... maybe ask them if they'd do one special for you if you like their style?

>>9578166
nayrt but can you or someone else give a rundown of production costs for a generic print jsk?

>>9578309
I'm a production coordinator in the fashion industry and get a pretty good look at our cost sheets whenever I want. If you're talking american made anyways.

Fabric costs about 10/yd for custom printed fabric even at wholesale. Lolita dresses use about 2-3 yards of fabric depending on cut/size/style, just for the self (main fabric) not including trims, lining, etc.

So lets cost that out:

Self 2.5 yds at 10.00/yd - 25.00
Lining 2 yds at 2.00/yd - 4.00
Lace- 5 yds at .50/yd - 2.50
Elastic for shirring - 1 yd at .05 - .05
Zipper - 1 at 1.00 - 1.00

Material cost before labor = 32.55 (assuming no contrast fabrics like chiffon etc)

Hours to construct - 4.5 at 20.00/hr labor - 90.00
(and that could be an underestimation, and this is the price for a one-off or low qty production, if you were to mass produce you could get this number down to maybe about 35.00 for 100 units but how the hell are you going to sell 100 lolita dresses of the same cut?)

122.55 before any profit. Labor costs do not count as PROFIT, that is the money you pay to have a seamstress sew the thing... if that person is not the "designer" then that money is 100% a loss.

multiply that number by 2 to get a bare minimum price that could count as retail.

245.10 is your retail price. So you can recoup some of the costs of designing your print, patterning, over head etc. and hopefully end up with a little money at the end of the day. In the real world we mark things up by 4 times so you'd wholesale at 245.10 and retail at 490.20

But no one is going to do that in lolita fashion so here we are.

>>9578325
that's really interesting, anon. thank you.

>>9578373
Np :) my company generally makes pretty simple things (knit tops, leggings etc) but I've made my own dresses before so I have a pretty good idea of the yardages for something like a lolita dress.

Some of my calculations are kind of on the conservative side... I didn't account for shipping of materials for example, nor buttons, or hooks and eyes or care labels. But hopefully it gives folks a good idea of the bare minimum price.

Are there any western brands that do 'boystyle' clothes? I like ouji fashion, but can never find it in my size.

>>9578325
This is all accurate, but except that most indie seamstresses can't get wholesale cost for most of their materials, because they can't afford that quantity. So they often are not including their labor costs in the equation at all (if they're doing it themselves).

>>9578413
That's another thing I didn't take into account. Again it was a pretty conservative estimate thanks for pointing that one out anon.

>>9578399
Anon who asked the original (what is too much to charge) question here with more insight. Aside from the bare cost of making the dress and materials, one must also consider pattern making, location costs, shipping/handling fees, plus all the work that goes in behind a brand as well. Where I work we only have 2 designers, but 6 in charge of marketing/sales/production, 1 full time warehouse employee (plus multiple part time), and shop staff. And the clothes is produced overseas.

Reason I asked is because I'm considering making a limited run of some designs. I have begun work on them but it looks like even a blouse is going to be around 300-450 dollars retail. I'm not sure if members of the lolita community would be willing to pay that much.

>>9578463
unlikely unfortunately. They complain about pretty much anything costing over 200 for even a dress. The lolita community is incredibly spoiled given how much yardage and print design goes into their clothing.

>>9578470
It's the fact that you have factory manufactured goods selling along side home made goods; simply put Angelic Pretty can have their custom prints made up on higher quality cottons for less money then what an indie designer can. Same with the lace. So for the indie person, their dress might be priced the same but their profit margin is much skinnier per garment.

>>9578476
Lolita clothes is not terribly expensive. Lolitas are used to fast fashion chain prices, so it just seems like a lot. Even purchasing cheaper mid-high range clothes as I do amounts to ~200 for a simple dress without custom print and not using much fabric.
Even If I sold the garments for zero profit I would still be charging over 250 for a blouse. Likely won't market to lolitas.

>>9578402
I know Ikimen Mode on facebook does ouji

Has anyone ordered from Pepfox before? How long did you have to wait before they shipped out your order?

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Dumping some

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>>9580865

Has anyone washed mulberry chronicles dresses before?

>>9580757
Tons of times although they were all pin orders. It usually takes a couple weeks.

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>>9581131

some brands from latin america

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>>9581134

>>9578325
Custom printed fabric without wholesale is closer to 25/yard, which as indicated by another anon is the case. I've been watching etsy shops with pretty cute designs offering skits and jsk at what has to be at cost lingering with zero sales for months or even years. Buying in bulk for discounted rates isn't an option.

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>>9581137

>>9581140
That model looks like a really annoyed fresh corpse.

>>9581140
Hate the model, love the dress.

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LOTV Designs posted this to her IG over the weekend. Looks like her mushroom dress may be happening soon. I think she also mentioned doing another run of the mushroom tights to go with it.

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>>9581278
Excellent.

I have always wanted to start an indie Lolita brand, but I don't know if my concept will appeal to anyone, so looking for opinions/advice. I wanted to do a more affordable "everyday" simple Lolita line that won't directly complete with the overly sweet AP or Baby brands. But it seems like no one is all that interested in simple Lolita stuff, or do those people exist but don't actively participate in the comms?

By simple stuff, I mean more on the lines of MM, VM, and IW but no prints or heavy embellishments. Just simpler details that will make a piece look and feel nice without overloading it so it can be used for everyday wear. Price point <$100.

>>9583241
You are my dream brand. Give me cutsew OPs and plain JSKs with pretty details and I will throw money at you.

>>9583241
Please. I would buy so many "plain" pieces. I want stuff that's comfortable and innocuous enough for everyday wear. I don't really like wearing my brand every day because I'm afraid about spilling stuff on it. If you could make simple classic pieces I could throw in the washer, you'd get all my money.

>>9583241
I'd absolutely love stuff like that.

>>9583270
>>9583261
>>9583247
Are you guys willing to pay for what it would cost for a plain peice? No y'all wouldn't -_-

>>9583241
Unless you're willing to commit a large amount to make the quantities you need to be profitable, or if your making everything yourself and treating yourself like a sweat shop I really wouldn't bother trying to make money like this

>>9583241
I collect a lot of daily wear lolita, and things that I'm concerned about when buying it is if it is good quality and can stand up to some wear, and it has to have some visual interest even if it's simple. Like, if it's a plain cut JSK, using a nice jacquard rather than plainweave cotton, that kind of thing.

Also dresses that are kind low maintenance, like a nice quality poly rather than something that needs a lot of ironing, are a plus, since you can toss them on first thing in the morning without worrying about prep.

>>9583241
Also fyi if you do plan on going into production, Lolita Collective has contacts with people who have experience making things factory ready, so you can send a sample and have the pattern altered to cut costs, etc.

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>>9583279

>>9583241
>Price point <$100.
Absolutely? Hell, even if it were higher I'd be interested, there's a dearth of the particular mentioned styles (MM/VM especially) when it comes to what's provided by current indie brands.
But oh,
>-_-
I doubt you'd listen to reason.

>>9583279
lmao do you personally know me? I have a ton of disposable income and would love to support indie creators if they made something quality in a style I'd wear. Non-print dresses are a huge market in the indie industry atm - anon is being smart and filling that niche. Just because you're bitter and poor doesn't mean the rest of us are.

>>9583241
I'd definetly be interested in that, but more on the gothic side though.

>>9583241
Please read >>9578325

Not that anon, but I am a professional seamstress who works closely with one of the Indie brands mentioned in this thread and have a fasion design background.

If you think you can actually make even basic dresses for less than $100, no matter where you live, I'm sorry but you are delusional.

Going from what the other anon said about costings, here are my estimates (mind you not an amerifag) that you need to take into consideration. Especially given the fact that fabric for plainer pieces needs to be of higher quality because you have no print to hide behind.

>making the pattern
Unless you are amazing at taking a design and turning it into a well fitted pattern yourself and then grading it into other sizes, you will have to outsource your pattern making. I charge $45 per hour for a full pattern draft and grading.
Depending on the complexity of the dress depends on how long it will take to draft, obviously. Let's say 3 sizes and a moderately complex design, rough estimate of 7hours (not including a toile to check for fitting if including toile estimate 8hours)
Which equals $315, but this price would be split against how ever many pieces you make of the 3 sizes, so let's say 20pc÷315= 15.75 pp
>cutting the fabric
This is a very time consuming and tedious job. Not only are you having to cut out many different pieces of the main fabric making sure grainlines are correct, but you have to do the lining too.
I charge $10pp
>sewing the dress
Once again, if you have no background sewing, you will have to outsource. But even if you can sew this is still a cost, and not a profit. Your pay is not profit for the business. I charge $70-120pp this depends on complexity of construction.

1/2 sorry for wall of text.

>>9583390
2/2

fabric
Like the previous anon said, lolita dresses use quite a lot of fabric, and especially so for plainer pieces, because you tend to use more lace and ruffling as design features.
Being tight on meterage, and keeping in mind the fabric has to be of higher quality my estimate would be 2.5m x $20 = $50ppc
(You may be able to get this cheaper if able to buy wholesale)

>lace
Decent lace is expensive. Also most lace on lolita dresses are gathered, which means the lace needs to be cut 2-3times larger than the finishing length.
Plainer pieces will often use more for design features.
10m×$2= $20ppc
(Once again you maybe be able to buy cheaper if buying wholesale)

>notions
Things like elastic, zippers, buttons, hook and eyes, brand tag, care label, size pip.
Estimate - $5ppc

Then there are other costings like packaging, online shop fees, business cards, paypal fees, amongst other things which I wont bother to break down.

Total cost price before possible retail price - $170.75

Things are more expensive in my country, than America so that would effect the final cost price. Also these costs do not take into consideration for wholesale prices (which could possibly bring fabric prices down to $10m and lace to $1m which changes the cost price to $135.75 estimate)

TL;DR - plainer pieces can actually cost more to make because you have to buy better quality fabric because you don't have a print to hide behind and you use more fabric and lace for design features.
Estimates between $135-$170 COST price, x2 for retail.

Thank you so much for the breakdown Anon, I think it's so underestimated how much costs and labor go into making a lolita dress and building a brand as well.

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How much does Mossmarchen sell her embroidery necklaces for? There are no prices for past items on her etsy.

>>9583405
I buy lace wholesale and I rarely get 2$/yd after shipping


there's all these taobao brands selling basics for a dime a dozen, do you think any Western brands can compete with basics?

>>9583241
To be honest, I feel like that's all I see from indie brands. It's just very tame, non-print gothic or generic classic. I'd honestly not be interested.
Good price point for what you're offering, though. Do not compete with brands and do not get near brand prices. It won't work well. If it's casual and simple in materials, it shouldn't be brand prices, anyway.

imo, what would truly set you apart as an indie brand in general is a high skill level and decent materials. What would you say your skill level is at? Compare yourself to something like an indie brand, taobao, or a brand itself.

>>9583581
I don't ever see taobao basics that I like, plus I'm a taobao noob so I rather prefer to deal with Western brands releasing really simple non-print pieces

>>9583610
Also, even the 'good' taobao brands are roulette wrt quality and sizing.

>>9583390
>>9583405
Really not trying to discredit you or anything, but how can a brand like Lady Sloth sell their dresses for under $100? Obviously her print dresses are relatively new but the casual line is all under $100. Its obviously possible.

Wouldn't call myself a brand, but I get around 20 commissions per year. I work quite slowly, and thus can't take charge an hourly rate, instead I charge for seams and details ( for example pockets +10€, lining +20€). I generally use modified Otome no Sewing/GLB/Gosu Rori patterns, but I do have a couple of patterns that I have constructed myself.
Material costs in my country is generally like this:
Fabric: 10 - 40€/M
Lining: 6€/M
Lace: 3 - 15€/M
Buttons: 0,5 - 5€ each
Last time I made a JSK with lining, shirring and pockets I charged 150€, material cost alone was 80€. I estimate 20h went into that particular dress.

>>9581077
Yeah, put a couple of the darker prints in the machine on delicate cold wash, hang dry. No issues.

>>9583538
There's a tool to look up past prices on sold etsy listings.

flippertools.com/tools/etsySoldPrice/etsy-sold-price.htm

>>9583829
what kind of lining do you use?

also, where do you find lace that's 15 a meter? most of my laces are 2 a meter, so not sure if it's because of difference in country

>>9583829
You're really doing yourself and everyone else a disfavor by charging so low for your labor.
Being slower or putting extra time/care into working deliberately doesn't mean you shouldn't be paid a fair wage.

>>9583947
150 is still a fair price considering lolitas are cheaps, especially us Eurofags. I don't think anon is planning on living of that much, pretty much some spare cash.

I often ask the same amount for lolita, cosplay I charge higher because I often have to tweak my patterns a bit more than for lolita.

>>9583856
Nayrt but when I was a naive beginner I once paid €15/m for broderie anglaise because it was the nicest stuff in the vicinity. I buy all my lace online, now.

>>9583856
I usually use basic acetate fabric (I think it's called). 15/m isn't even weird for a 10 cm broad lace in my country, regardless whether online or in-store. I've recently started to bulk order on taobao though and the prices and wide range of laces are a blessing. A fabric store with more than 3 (nice) black laces is a well-stocked one in my city.

>>9583947
I'm considered expensive to commission sadly, half of the people who asked for my prices stopped answering after hearing the price. I'm 95% self taught and my work is far from flawless, thus I don't charge more. Sewing is my hobby aside from studying.

>>9584090
I prefer to use a thin cotton as lining, less static than you average lining.

I rarely come across 10cm wide laces (except taobao and the like), so that's why I don't ever see that price. I feel you on the black lace, it's so hard to find anything decent in a local shop, so I just shop online.

people rarely commission lolita I feel. I once had someone ask if I could make a JSK for 10 euros just because she saw a secondhand handmade piece of me online for that price.

>>9583761
Since Lady Sloth is Poland based, I suspect her costs are lower compared to US standards.

I am this anon. >>9583241

>>9583390
>making the pattern
>sewing the dress

Actually, my current profession is patternmaking. I occasionally sew samples when needed too, so my sewing skill level is on a professional level. I currently work for a US fashion label and have been in the industry for quite a while. My previous job was a grader and marker maker. So yes, I can make my own patterns, grade them myself, create markers for cutting, and even provide accurate yields for costing. I own my own CAD software and plotter too which makes patternmaking a breeze for me. I do not need to pay anyone else for what I can already do myself.

>cutting the fabric
>This is a very time consuming and tedious job.

This is my favorite part to talk about with people outside the industry. Cutting is actually where you go to save the most money for what you are doing. The more you can cut, the more money you will save. Basically because it takes the same amount of time/money to cut one garment as it does to cut 100. If you've never been to a cutting floor before... well, they spread fabric that can go as high as maybe 300 layers of fabric or more depending on what they use to cut with... circular blades < vertical blades < lasers!! I know a guy that has a computerize cutter, which means no paper markers. I can send him a digital file and fabric, and the machine will cut it out in a few hours, and I could pick up my cut bundles in the same day.

>>9583405
>Decent lace is expensive.

Another goodie! My current company makes dresses with a lot of embellishments, so they pretty much create their own laces and trims every season. Funnily enough, they are also very very big on prints and just purchased an in house custom fabric printer to test new fabrics and colorways for seasons. I swear, if I didn't already know this company, it would sound like I was describing a Lolita brand! Sadly, no.

Anyway, I have sources for stuff like trims and quality fabrics at reasonable prices. The most I ever need to worry about is shipping and import taxes.

>notions
Estimate - $5ppc

If you were costing those at retail level, maybe, but not wholesale. That seems way too high.

>Total cost price before possible retail price - $170.75

This feels artificially inflated. You don't add patternmaking or grading costs into clothing. That is just money companies invest in to get a good product much like R&D. Think about it, it's a one time investment to create a pattern and grade it. You can cut that style season after season, year after year. You don't tack on the price of the pattern/grade each time you decide to run the style.

I often see silk dresses my company makes come back from overseas for $22/piece or less, and then retail for $200. Now I understand that they are a much larger company and produce much more than I can, but it is absolutely possible to get a lower price if you know what you are doing.

I have several local sewing factories in my area. When I priced a pretty simple blouse (with pintucks/ruffles), I was met with an $8 per piece charge with a minimum order of at least 200 pieces, which is not unreasonable for US labor prices nor for a minimum quantity.

>>9584482
>>9584501
Be still my heart! Anon, you're getting me very excited. It sounds like you have the background to make your idea work. I look forward to benefiting from your success!

>>9583247
>>9583261
>>9583270
>>9583283
>>9583366

Thank you! Your feedback is appreciated and I will take it all into consideration.

>>9583586
>imo, what would truly set you apart as an indie brand in general is a high skill level and decent materials. What would you say your skill level is at? Compare yourself to something like an indie brand, taobao, or a brand itself.

This is a difficult question to answer. I work professionally as a patternmaker and sometimes sample maker. I sew pretty well and on a professional level, but there is always something new to learn. The garments that I end up sewing, go out to the factories as the sample they need to go by for construction and quality. I won't categorize myself under "brand quality" because I have some brand pieces with questionable sewing that I just chalked up to "They must do things differently in the land of the rising sun." With all that said, I don't have the same machinery that factories have. That is to say, a factory can churn out near perfect welt pockets because they have a Reece machine that will automatically set, sew, and cut the pocket all in one step. I have to set welt pockets the old fashioned way, so there will be room for human error (though I do set a mean welt pocket by hand!) It's true for button holes, blind hems, and bindings. So to answer your question - I don't know and will let you decide where my sewing stands if I ever get up and running, but fwiw, I'd like to say I have much more experience than most other Western indie brands I have seen out there so far.

>>9583288
>Lolita Collective

I had a really bad experience with them, and would not really trust to do business with them on a professional level. As far as I could tell, they just resell cheap Chinese bought stuff at a mark up. I did not know they manufactured anything.

>>9584531
>>9584501
May I ask what your background is/how you got into this? Sounds like you're living the dream.

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>>9584543
>May I ask what your background is/how you got into this? Sounds like you're living the dream.

Yes you may!

Mom was a seamstress, and I guess I got interested in this sort of thing from her early on.

Went to school for and graduated in Fashion Design, though I learned nothing new and just paid for a really expensive piece of paper! I do not recommend FD as a major unless you go to a more prestigious school and get to study abroad in Italy or France at some couture house!

Was fortunate enough to have been taken in by a talented patternmaker that did things the old way... everything by hand! So I learned all the old ways of drafting and grading by hand! I even own the silly contraption they used to use for grading before computers came about. (see pic)

Now I've been working in the industry for almost a decade. I wouldn't dare try to start my own line/brand without experience. Idk how all the other indies do it.

>>9584482
>>9584501

>>9583390 anon here.

With your background and resources, I'm actually really excited to see what you do. Please link here once you get started!

My price estimates were not at all for wholesale prices, as most Indie brands cannot afford to make or have the ability to sell +200pc.

>You don't add patternmaking or grading costs into clothing. That is just money companies invest in to get a good product

I feel like this statement just doesn't work for a small Indie brand? Unless you plan to use a basic base dress pattern and only change around the design features slightly each release, you would need to create a new pattern each time. Which is quite a large cost to just absorb for a small brand.
Which I feel especially true for a brand who's focus will be on plain pieces, if your designs are just a similar rehash with out any print draw, your customer base is going to get bored real quickly and you will find it difficult to maintain customer loyalty.
That patterning and grading cost will eventually dissappear with the reuse of the pattern, but you aren't about to start off with making 100pc of it just to negate the cost.
Am I just misunderstanding the direction you are coming from?

> grading machine
I have one of those too! My patternmaking teacher gifted it to me when I graduated. I love it. Patternmaking and construction is my passion, but boy almighty do I hate cutting. I usually work on small runs and bespoke pieces which is why I have to do it myself as it is just not cost effective to send it out. In saying that this also probably lends a hand to my higher estimates, as I generally work with higher quality materials and not mass production.

>>9583241
Cutsews please! I wear a lot of meta skirts casually and need cutsews that are cute and comfy.

>>9584531
>>Lolita Collective
They seemed alright in my book but I'd love to hear more about your experience.

>>9584554
>Now I've been working in the industry for almost a decade. I wouldn't dare try to start my own line/brand without experience. Idk how all the other indies do it.
The more you know the more you know you don't know.
The less others know, the more confident they can be in their work. It applies to all hobbies and things.

I haven't commented in this thread (and refrain from commenting on this board in general) but I run an indie brand and Lolita Collective has helped me to: get my items manufactured, adjust my pricing so that it's more competitive but still allows me to gain some profit, get my items picked up by retail shops, sell my items online and at conventions I don't physically attend. I probably would have fizzled out already if not for their help, honestly. They do pad out their convention booth stock with reselling some accessories and such that are from Taobao but I think most of the stock I've seen (including some main pieces from Taobao brands) has been stuff they were sent to sell on commission - the pricing doesn't make sense otherwise (for example the Pierrot and Kokokim they have would be much more expensive if they were just marking it up).

>>9585047
I'm an indie designer and lurk the board. Generally I keep quiet and just read, but I vend with the Lolita Collective, and they have always done right by me. They buy some of my items wholesale when they can afford to, and even go to OTHER physical stores with line sheets of the brands who have wholesale capacity to try to help us find new markets. Sorry one girl had a bad experience, but as far as I am concerned there really isn't another retail outlet working as hard for the indie brands they rep as they do.

>>9583241
I like simple but please don't skimp too much on the details. no one wants a starchy looking dress w/o any embellishments. simple to me as a lolita must still have at least some feature like nice pintucks, lace, pretty buttons.
you have a great idea! please make sure you go out of your way to make the pieces clean and special somehow. I can dig a plain main that like has a few buttons in a style you rarely see, for example, or has lace dyed to match the main fabric.

>>9583761
Not sure if this is still true but a couple of years ago someone that is close to her told me they think she underprices her work terribly and does herself a disservice. She might be working to very slim profit margins, even for Poland.

>>9583241
I think comfortable cutsew dresses (with pockets!) would be popular, and few indies do them (most indie brands seem to release the same boring plain JSK). the only indie brand that I've seen do cutsew-type fabric is Cherie Cherise and that brand that released a cutsew dress with a bat collar. A lot of lolitas are too big to fit Japanese otome brands like Emily Temple Cute that release cutsew dresses frequently, and I've noticed that even AP's cutsew dresses are often much smaller than their main pieces.

I think it's hard to succeed as an indie brand selling cotton/poly ordinary dresses aimed at every day because it's so easy for people to buy second-hand IW solids for the same price point.

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>>9585461
The bat collar cutsew was from The Black Ribbon, if you were curious.

>>9585473
Ah thanks, a girl in my comm has some but I couldn't remember the name for the life of me!

Forgot to say that one of the reasons I think few indie brands make cutsew dresses is because you really need an overlocker to sew long-wearing pieces out of jersey knit and I suspect most indie seamstresses don't own them. That and it can be difficult to buy jersey knit as a hobbyist in some places.

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>>9585473
Cherie Cerise did a bat collar cutsew too, this design is at least a couple of years old, because I've had it on my wishlist for a long time

>>9585495
I did not know that. I figured anon was talking about the Black Ribbon one because it was released last year.

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>>9585473
>>9585495
>>9585499
Anon said "cutsew dress" though, which made me think it must be this Elegy piece.

>>9585504
Wow, you're totally right, she did, my eyes skipped right over that. That dress is so cute!

>>9583761
um not sure what you mean, as the casual line is what's new. she's done prints from the start I believe. really mad I didn't get her limited Monet/Japanese Bridge a couple years ago but I have her Baroque Lady which is lovely. her most famous is probably the 1st release of the clock print, and maybe the raven cemetary one. both great for gothic

>>9584738
>My price estimates were not at all for wholesale prices, as most Indie brands cannot afford to make or have the ability to sell +200pc.

I wasn't suggesting wholesale prices for 200 garments. I meant that $5 for notions seemed way too high of a cost. If you're paying $3 retail for a zipper, then sure, I guess it could cost you $5/garment for notions. Generally, you should buy your notions in bulk though. A gross of buttons is cheaper than buying 3-4 buttons at a time for a one off piece.

>I feel like this statement just doesn't work for a small Indie brand?

How do you charge for designing a garment? Do you track the number of hours you spend thinking about a new style, drawing it out, finding inspiration, or testing a drape idea before any actual pattern work is done? Do you track the hours you spend sourcing for fabric and trims? Do you add these hours into you garment price too? Designing is just as much a part of creating a garment as is patternmaking and grading, but I haven't heard your thoughts on charging for designing, so how do you separate what you get to charge and what you don't?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you don't pay yourself at all. You absolutely do. I just think the way you're going about it makes it so you're pricing yourself out of the market from the get go. To divide that particular pattern/grade into the cost of that particular garment isn't the way big business does it. And if you're a small business, your objective is to grow your business. You have to think and act like a big business. Just don't spend like you're one!

>moderately complex design, rough estimate of 7hours (not including a toile to check for fitting if including toile estimate 8hours)

I can complete up to 4 patterns a day with no grading, depending on their complexity. I wouldn't be able to work as a patternmaker if I could only make 1 pattern in an 8hr work day, so my cost for patterning/grading is not going to be the same as yours.

>>9585047
>>9585094
>>9585441
>Sorry one girl had a bad experience, but as far as I am concerned there really isn't another retail outlet working as hard for the indie brands they rep as they do.

I had a bad experience with them as a customer, not as a business partner. As a customer, I have decided not to spend my money with them anymore. As business people, this should concern you. I may just be one person, but it makes me wonder how many others like me they have turned off and lost as a potential customer? That's all I was trying to say.

>>9584531
I've only ever had good experiences with LC, except for maybe long shipping times, but I think that's generally because they're on the road constantly. They don't resell Chinese stuff for a markup, it's almost always the same price you'd pay since they do wholesale buying, but their western indie stuff is what makes them worth it to me. The Chinese stuff just seems like filler for the weebs and newbs at cons.

>>9585583
You still never talked about your experience, though, just said it was bad and left it at that, which sounds kinda vendetta to me over something that's probably nothing.

>>9585583
Seconding this. >>9585613

>As business people, this should concern you.
The more dramatic you try to make it sound, the more disappointed people will probably be by your story...so you should probably just drop it and stop trying to talk shit for the sake of talking shit.

>>9585613
>You still never talked about your experience, though

I didn't talk about it cause there's nothing to talk about. I bought something as a customer and wasn't happy with the service. It's not serious enough to mention the details??? And I'm not here to shit-talk them???

>>9585616
>you should probably just drop it and stop trying to talk shit for the sake of talking shit.

I never said shit. I just said I personally had a bad experience and would not do business with them again. It's my personal choice and never asked anyone else to do the same. Idc if someone else wants to purchase from them, but that doesn't mean I have to.

So like if I had a bad experience, I'm just supposed to keep it to myself cause everyone else is happy with them? Um, ok. Sorry I had an opinion.

>>9585636
No, that's the thing, we want to hear what the bad experience was so we can decide if your reaction is justified to us and something we should be cautious of, or if you're just someone who is being unreasonable. Saying you had bad service can mean a lot of things, we want to know how so we can make our own decisions. Basically all you've done is slander because you're making no effort to back yourself up or share what actually happened.

>>9585638
It's like going to Applebee's and getting an overcooked/burnt steak. I would not go back there again to eat, but I'm sure others would. Do I need to talk about something like that? No. But if someone mentions Applebee's, I'm going to say "Yeah, not going to eat there again." And some will agree and others won't. Like it's not that serious.

Not really unreasonable as I just wasn't happy with the product/service, and don't feel the need to buy from them. It's all a personal choice. If it was something super serious that warranted bitching about, I would have. But trust me when I say, it wasn't anything serious. Just a personal choice.

I almost feel like you're trying to have me start shit about them when I don't have beef with them at all.

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>>9585641

>>9585641
Honestly you should probably stop replying then. The gulls are hungry for drama.

>>9585653

Obviously. It's a slow night.

>>9585653
>>9585659
I literally just wanted to hear of an actual example of why anon was upset/made that decision since I had heard other things from other people, but all she did was beat around the bush and then play the victim. Even in her dumb Applebee's analogy she said something about a burned steak, which is an example of poor service, but didn't do the same for LC. Quit fucking whining unless you want to actually expand on your claim.

>>9585638
>so we can decide if your reaction is justified
Who the fuck are you? I don't need your judgement.

>we want to know how so we can make our own decisions
Then why don't you buy from them yourself and form your own opinion with your own experience? Or are you the type to only form opinions based on what other people think?

>all you've done is slander
That word does not mean what you think it means. I had a bad experience is not slander. I wasn't happy with their service is not slander.

>since I had heard other things from other people
There were other stories? Then why do you need to hear mine?

>>9585660
>play the victim
>Quit fucking whining
Bait.

>expand on your claim.
What claim?

inb4: You claimed to have had a bad exp, but offer no evidence to support it so you're obviously lying!

Haha... your powers of deduction and reasoning are unparalleled.

>>9585699
Jesus Christ you're unbearable. You write like an overly defensive 15yo who's going online for the first time.

>>9583241
Simple pieces constructed from sturdy fabric would be so ideal. I'd love sturdier underskirts that are just an inch or two longer than brand lengths, with partial pettis and are not just things made of chiffon. Under dresses that actually work as both blouse and underskirts. Sturdy cutsews and easy to wear blouses. OPs that are also easy would be appreciated, or so I think. Vests! Please vests! Not just classic colors, either, but ones that are sweet colors as well. Simple stuff is easy to find in gothic, so that wouldn't interest me.

>>9585660
>I had heard other things from other people
You can't shit on the other anon for alluding to and then not sharing a story if you're gonna pull the same shit.

>>9585578
I feel like we are arguing from two competently diffent fields here.
I'm ngl, I have no experience with large companies who do big runs.
I can only share the knoweledge from my experience with small run designers (between 20-40pc) and bespoke pieces, in which case, patternmaking for (new) designs are included into the costing.
No, it is not the case when a particular designer works with only a handful of styles each with new prints, but for the ones who create new garments, yes.
Perhaps this also comes down to a difference between our geographical industry location? You seem to have quite a lot more experience than me, perhaps it's still something I'm to learn, I'm only a few years out of uni.

>How do you charge for designing a garment?
Depends on who I'm working with. If it is a bespoke garment, that is usually under the consult charge, as the customer an designer collaborate on the design.
When I work for small designers it's not my designs, and funnily enough when it's for my own stuff I don't charge for the time. Mostly because I will take about an hour to come up with 10+ designs and then that will bleed into my patternmaking as I drape the designs and tweak from there.

>I wouldn't be able to work as a patternmaker if I could only make 1 pattern in an 8hr work day.
Of course, that's a completely correct statement. Perhaps I'm jumping too much to the defence here, I almost feel I need to defend my ability.
I don't have the access to a CAD program, I used Gerber in uni and loved it, didn't love the cost, could you reccomend me a program?

My estimate of a 8hr patternmake is usually because I drape, hand pattern, 3 size grade, make a multiude of toiles then trace and cut card pieces complete with spec sheets.
I haven't had any complaints about cost or time taken and have the small brands as loyal return customers and have been working together for a couple years now.

Am I the only one who has found this banter fun?

>>9585712
But I didn't ask for details. Simply stating that if there were other stories already, surely anons do not need mine.

>>9585712
Sure I can, the difference is the stories aren't mine so I wouldn't share what if possibly get wrong/didn't personally experience. Anon said they had a bad experience, first hand is better than passing along a story from person to person.

>>9585699
Please, please stop replying to them. Nothing more can come from that line of discussion.

>>9585710
>Under dresses that actually work as both blouse and underskirts.
Didn't know how much I wanted this until you put the idea in my head. This would cut down on bulk significantly.

>>9585725
I've enjoyed reading your two different experiences and opinions. It's interesting to me since I don't know much about your field.

>>9585725
>Am I the only one who has found this banter fun?
Same! So much so that I didn't think we were arguing at all.

I think that is the main difference here. If I start a brand, I would want to run it as though it will become a larger company someday. I have worked for small brand start ups and freelancers, and I have also watched them close up shop. So I think if I do this, it's go big or go home.

You should absolutely charge what you want/need with your own business, but running such small numbers is always going to be tough. If you can scale/grow your business effectively, it will be key to your success.

>I almost feel I need to defend my ability.

Why is that? Hope I didn't say something offensive. You stated you charge about $45/hr (not sure if USD) for your pattern work. If you can get that kind of pay only a few years out of university, consider yourself lucky. The patternmaker I worked with has over 30 years of experience and last I heard she charges only $40/hr. Though I know another patternmaker who makes well over six figures, so to each their own.

>could you reccomend me a program?
If you didn't like the price of Gerber, I don't think you'll like the price of any of the others out there. And I'm not sure what may be in your country since you said you are not in the US, correct?

>>9585734
>>Under dresses that actually work as both blouse and underskirts.
>Didn't know how much I wanted this until you put the idea in my head. This would cut down on bulk significantly.
It would also cut down on the time it takes to get ready for more daily wear. JSKs are the most popular main piece for most Lolita. On average western Lolita are just a little taller than their eastern counterparts, and underskirts that aren't OTT really fill this niche by just adding a little bit of length. But, most are chiffon and a higher percentage of those don't have any built in petti. Underskirts need a minor built in petti to help smooth out the lines. Cotton blouses are not really being supplied, although from what is seen they are needed for casual wear as they are sturdier and more forgiving. Combine the two together and it is a happy medium.

I've been obsessed with this idea for months and I'm really struggling to find a source.

>>9585725
Different patterning anon but I've heard good things about Pad as an alternative to gerber

>>9585778
I'm not sure if that would work that well in practice. Blouses are in contact with sweaty pits and back and need to be washed/changed more often. Underskirts are often not in contact with the body at all (worn over blouse and petti) and rarely need washing. If you use an underdress as a substitute you're committing to frequently washing a much bigger, bulkier garment than a blouse alone.

>>9585699
I'm reading this as
>Lolita Collective wouldn't talk with me for an hour at their booth while they were busy so I don't like them

or possibly

>Hello eye-brows-chan

>>9585756
>>9585817
>>9585725

I've been wanting to learn how to use a patterning program, is there one in particular you suggest for someone learning? For my background, I haven't done any CAD yet, but I'm really good with Illustrator.

>>9586250
Not gonna lie I thought it might be eyebrows-chan shitting up the thread, too.

>>9585699
You can't say

>>9584531
>I had a really bad experience with them, and would not really trust to do business with them

and

>>9585583
>As business people, this should concern you.

but then turn around and say

>>9585636
>I didn't talk about it cause there's nothing to talk about.
>It's not serious enough to mention the details

and

>>9585641
>If it was something super serious that warranted bitching about, I would have. But trust me when I say, it wasn't anything serious.

and not expect us to wonder what the hell you're talking about and why you brought it up...

>>9585473
This is just a t-shirt with a collar though, wouldn't really call it a cutsew unless it had some more details like lace or buttons. >>9585495 is a much better example and something I could see people wanting to buy over a similar brand or taobao release.

>>9586264
The main industry standard is Gerber but like I said earlier many smaller companies use PAD b/c it is cheaper.

>>9586274
The only definition of a cut-sew is that it is made of knit fabric (b/c of using an over lock machine that 'cuts and sews' in one step). However I totally see your point. That brand does offer more lolita style tops, and some really not lolita stuff too. I think they are more of an retro/otome/lolita brand rather than anything strictly one thing or another *shrug* and like the person who posted it said they just thought of it b.c of the recent release date.

>>9586264
Pattern software and Illustrator are completely different. Software like Gerber isn't a drawing program. Unless you already have some experience/training/schooling for CAD, there might be a steep learning curve for you.

And Gerber is by far the least user friendly of all the systems I've used. I believe it was the first patterning software to come out so that is why it is widely used in the industry. That's changing however, because Gerber is really, really outdated.

>>9585885
Undershirts should be warn anyway to protect garments like blouses or dresses, so it hasn't been a problem for me and my pits.

>>9587799
I wear undershirts whenever I can but you can't wear more than a small vest/cami with some styles of blouses (ones with a low-neckline, short sleeves or sheer sleevs where you want to show the sheerness), which means there isn't actually any fabric between the dress and your body at the armpits. If it's very hot sweat can also soak through an undershirt to some degree. Everybody's different but with my experience, even blouses I've worn a long-sleeved T-shirt under with every wear have needed washing faster than underskirts have.

>>9578402
Ikemen Mode, Elegy

>>9587288
>>9586650
tldr I need to learn CAD for engineering anyways and I'd like to learn patterning as a way to start.

Would you say PAD is more user friendly than Gerber? I'll pretty much only be using it for personal projects, so I'm not worried about being industry-relevant.

>>9588588
CAD for engineering is also different than CAD for patterning. It's a 3D vs 2D kind of difference... Unless I am mistaken by what you mean by engineering since that is a big field.

I think PAD is more user friendly than Gerber. I know you're not concerned with being industry relevant, but pattern software is in the 10k+ range. If you're doing it for personal reasons and not work/industry reasons, its hella expensive. Not trying to dissuade you, but don't be sticker shocked if you start looking into buying. It may very well not be worth it for you if you're just doing it for fun.

Also, I stand by learning how to draft by hand on paper before moving into CAD. You have a much better understanding of patternmaking that way.

>>9588588
yeahhhhh I wouldn't really recommend learning patterning software for fun. It's not really worth it unless you plan on using it on a professional level. Most people I know professionally who haven't invested in it do paper patterns then hand it off to someone to grade and digitize b/c it's more cost effective at the entry level.

>>9581134
The construction and lace quality/placement looks very nice/legit

>>9588660
>CAD for engineering is also different than CAD for patterning.
Can you explain further? Nayrt, but in order to CAD in 3d you start with 2d. And by eliminating 3d, it sounds a whole lot easier imo.

>>9594542
I'd say from what I've seen PAD is highly specialized to one single task, where CAD software is multipurpose. I don't know enough about CAD software, but I can say that if you learn PAD you're better off assuming very little will carry over to CAD as it is highly specialized to one task. There are tools for notching, dart manipulation, grading, etc. only the more basic tools are going to carry over into CAD such as drawing lines, mirroring, scaling, etc. It would probably be easier to learn CAD then learn PAD i suspect. Anywho, best of luck.

>>9595258
T b h, it doesn't sound that much different. I also know how to use CAD already, but I guess I'll just try it out and see how different it is for myself. Thanks for the response anon.

How often does I Do Declare open commissions? I've been following them for a while and I'm interested in some of the dresses they've posted on their insta.

>>9599833
thats a question to ask the brand directly, not something i think most of us would know.

>>9601550
Hm, you're probably right anon. I was hoping to hear from anyone who had ordered from them before but it's best just to ask them.

Opinions on clockmonster vs. ssweet mildred? I want to buy a dress from one of them (a stripy dress) the only thing is that their designs are really similar in design and price and I was wondering which shop has the better construction quality.

>>9601610
The dresses i've seen from sweet mildred are very well made. I can't give any info on the other brand though. Good luck!

>>9584554
I don't think I've ever enjoyed a lolita thread so much, thanks anon