Before there was a concept of "ita", before the rules

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OP is Emily Temple Cute.

>>9474289
>Does a fashion inherently have to form strict rules to become successful, like lolita did?
It doesn't. I think the brands made rules surrounding lolita and a lot of girls took it and ran with them. I see a lot of people touting what is and isn't lolita as a sign of superiority. The ones loudest about this are often relatively new to lolita as well, scolding older lolitas or ones that haven't grasped the concept of the fashion yet. (Think tumblrettes that that threw on some Bodyline with no petti)
>Do you like old old-school? Or is it definitely a product of its time?
Both. I think I can both love old-school and see it for what it is. I don't think it'll ever go back to old school unless a certain gen of lolitas gets exhausted on prints and OTT. I feel like CoF/Chinese lolitas are taking the fashion very far away from old school at the moment. It seems to be an almost uniquely Western group that likes old school. I'm sure some of the Japanese are like that, too.
>If you're an oldfag, what year did you first see/hear about lolita?
Not as oldfag as most, but back when egl was lively on LJ. I'd love to go back in time and see parts of that, but I don't miss a lot of things that oldfags conveniently omit. No overseas brand like AP USA, difficulty obtaining it from Japan, doing bizarre things like buying sissy shoes for lolita, etc.

What's the earliest dress anyone can think of? I was in an old school thread awhile back where someone claimed to own a piece from the 90s.

>>9474307
I can see that. Met a girl today at a meet wearing something that old. I don't think we can know much about what was sold that long ago beyond glb so someone may own old stuff without knowing.

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>>9474289
>Does a fashion inherently have to form strict rules to become successful, like lolita did?
I think so. Look at how the western community butchered fairy kei, cult party kei and dolly kei, because they didn't have those guidelines and were misinterpreted. That being said, I think rules are there for newbies and once you can put together a nice outfit it doesnt matter if you follow the rules.

>Do you like old old-school? Or is it definitely a product of its time?
I love old-school, it's the main part of my wardrobe. Although I really want to try a very early style coord from when the fashion was hardly recognisable by today's standards, but I'm too afraid nobody else will get it and just think I'm ita, particularly here on cgl.

>If you're an oldfag, what year did you first see/hear about lolita?
I'm not an oldfag because I didn't start wearing it until 2012, but I first discovered lolita sometime around 2005 in FRUiTS, so I never knew the western old-school comm which may have something to do with the rose tinted glasses I see old-school through

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>>9474547

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>>9474549

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>>9474551

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>>9474552

>>9474289
I used to dislike central parts about oldschool, when it still was basic lolita and not its own style. For instance, I disliked the poofy cotton blouses and under the knee socks, because they looked terrible on me and too much like children's clothes. Now, almost 10 years later, I appreciate them. Probably because I am now old enough that nobody is going to mistake me for a child anymore.

>If you're an oldfag, what year did you first see/hear about lolita?
I've been wearing lolita since 2008, and first heard about it in 2004, through our lord and savior, Mana. Back then, I loved the style, but I never realized that I too could wear it.

>>9474289
>I don't know what. But it was something.
Back in the wiki thread, dj sisen calls them fushigi-chan (mysterious girls).

>>9474289
I think a fashion does need to have clear and strict rules for it to be as organized as lolita is, and to keep people from trying to change the definition like they have with fairy kei or cult party kei

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Even though they're not considered lolita today anymore, Jane Marple definitely influenced lolita back then.

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>>9474657

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>>9474667

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>>9474668

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>>9474672
gtg now, I will post more later

>>9474642
How has the definition of fairy kei and cult party kei changed? I think cult party is pretty dead in Jpn, I can't find anything about the shops anymore.

>>9474657
My host family in Japan says Jane Marple is lolita, but maybe it's one of those things normies and lolita's don't agree on.
Thanks for the mini dump.

>>9474679
Novala Takemoto also said they were lolita, I'll find the reference when I get back from work.

>>9474677
What I mean is that girls in the west have tried to change the definition. Look at the glaring differences between Japanese CPK or fairy kei and what the west thinks is cpk or fairy kei and it'll be obvious

>>9474657
>>9474667
I love modern JM, but I wish they had some more "lolita" looking pieces like these.

>>9474685
Fairy kei has essentially been bastardized into pastel decora in the West, with nearly all the 80s influence gone.

>>9474685
I see, I don't follow those fashion closely so I didn't know. But I think making rules/guides can have that effect too because of misunderstandings, if you look at what happened with kodona, aristocrat and otome. I'm still confused about otome because novala takemoto also uses it but I don't know what information to trust.

>>9474551
Idk if I love or hate those shoes.
Also that bag is terrifying, reminds me of that Silent Hill rabbit

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>>9474674
continuing the dump

this outfit almost looks like the stuff they release today

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>>9474747

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>>9474749
this one's from 2001

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>>9474750
same outfit as pictured here >>9474667

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>>9474752
Old ETC

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>>9474756
old Meta

>>9474667
>>9474657
Holy shit, I've never seen photos of straight up lolita from the 80's, just the abominations it started as.

>tfw will probably never have gorgeous lolita outfit from the 80's

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Not sure if this skirt is burando or not. Blouse seems to be indie I think. I like the developing shape.

>>9474797
I think it says that skirt is handmade and blouse is Miho Matsuda.

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OP is indie brand

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Something early with more sweet elements. Most of it is MILK.

>>9474684
Novala:
"If a detective's Burberry trenchcoat is armor for an easily hurt soul, then inside their decorative Jane Marple fashion, Lolita are wrapping away cells made from glass."

Ref: http://lerman.biz/asagao/gothic_lolita/translations/soreinu22.html

>>9474551
I miss seeing Japanese lolitas like this. Now they all have the crazy uncanny valley anime girl lenses and make up, but all the old school girls look human.

>>9474679
People in my comm wear jane marple to meets too. The only place I've seen people act weird about it is cgl.

>>9474951
Idk what you're talking about, the Japanese lolita's I see look normal. Maybe you're confused with the Chinese cosplayer type?

>>9474941
Can't take this seriously, it just makes me roll my eyes, takemoto is self important.

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Lolita guide from 1999

>>9475000
Do you mean you can't take his writing seriously or the fact that a lot of people think you can wear jane marple for lolita?

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>>9474833
Is this the same girl?

>>9475000
He's pretentious and annoying as fuck but I trust his estimates of what is and isn't a brand.

>>9475011
Whoops nevermind. I'm tired so forgive my absolute stupidity.

>>9475002
Basically chunky shoes, long socks, apron, puffy sleeves and a teddy bear? If anyone can read moonspeak I'd appreciate a more complete translation.

>>9474962
Even Japanese Lolitas think JM is Lolita, often along with ETC. They often tag coords that we'd call otome with "lolita". It's funny to see the difference in opinion.

>>9474831
This is so cute ugh

I'd kill for this to be accepted as lolita nowadays

>>9475389
I mean you can still wear stuff like that, it's adorable, but doesn't fit within the definition of lolita

>>9475377
I think cgl is especially anal about it because they made otome kei threads

>>9474693
Do you even know what defines decora as decora as western fairy kei hardly uses headwear at all, those overused star hairclips excluded.

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>>9475377
People in Japan love to tag similar styles tho, doesn't mean the outfit in question is. I mean, look what they tag as gothic lolita, their tagging is just as shit as the western one.

>>9475710
That's the event tagging it because gothic lolita's are in their target group.

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>>9475003
>Cyber

Oh, late 90s/early 00s. I know all fashions had to start somewhere, but that cast looking leg brace with those short shorts...

Polite sage for ot.

>>9475704
Maybe we're seeing different fairy kei, as I admit I don't follow it closely, but what floats past my feed on tumblr is nearly all bois with 20 Claire's hair clips on

>>9475002
This is not a Lolita guide, it's just this Mina person (maybe a model or an idol?) explaining the style she likes to wear.

>>9476339
I kind of miss Cyber, is it even a thing any more? I'm also consistently astonished by how much darker and redder in the face all the models were back then and I'm not sure if it's camera saturation, less stringent standards for models, or magazines nowadays using huge amounts of shoop and pale make-up on models who otherwise have the same natural skintone as the old ones.

I really liked some of the late 90s make-up and fashion trends in Japan, you can really see it in >>9474674, >>9474747 and >>9474749. Current trends are cute, both in and out of jfash, but they're really unnatural and I kind of miss the days when appearance standards were less stringent. I guess it's partly because people have cameraphones all the time now? It's happened in my country too, the standards of "acceptable" make-up are much, much higher and heavier than they were in the 90s and it's kind of overwhelming.

Those huge sandals that were in fashion were just hideous though - >>9474551, >>9474797, >>9475002, and especially the shoes in >>9475003 upset me. I like chunky shoes but these are just so ugly.

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No matter how much time passes this will remain one of my favorite coords ever.

>>9475389
Western lolitas consider this otome now. Japanese lolitas don't care one way or another, as long as you don't look like shit. cgl is just anal in general because no fun is allowed. Jane Marple shaped lolita a lot, but if you call an entirely JM coord "lolita" now, there's going to be some snowflake that has to say "Except that's not right desu!!"

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These girls are iconic.

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While early lolita is fun to look back upon, I do like how our standards have increased. Sorry but some of these outfits, while admirable in their simplicity, are sort of ugly.

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>>9478388
Did the wearers of lolita decide the "rules", or did the brands notice certain trends and immortalize them in their releases?

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>>9478390

>>9478388
I love them desu
>>9478390
I think that most brands saw a culture of girls leaning towards these things and they stylized themselves to match the aesthetic. When one takes a chance and is successful, then rest will follow.
Japan still isn't really that anal about coords the way American lolitas are. As long as your basics are covered, you're normally fine there, because to them, it's still a street fashion. To Gaijin, it's becoming a pissing contest. See who can stick the most shit on their head. Who can wear the most false lashes. Who owns the most burando. Who does everyone hate. Why do we hate her. Always look perfect, you can't ever look bad. She's too skinny, she's too fat, she's too black, she's too ugly...

Gaijin lolita has become a cliqué instead of a street fashion, made up of elitists and itas with few people in the middle who want to have this fashion be what it should be.
Sorry for blog post, shit gets me heated.

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>>9478407
We're still believing the "all nipponese lolitas are lovelies uwu" myth? we know that lolitas would mock chubbier and uglier girls, and coordinates that they don't like based on translated 2ch and girlschannel threads.

We ALSO know that the false eyelashes-ott-sweet friends originated in Japan by lolitas like Sae, Unu, and Takulu. It isn't like Japanese lolita still looks like this, no, they can look just as OTT and ridiculous as western lolitas.
And Japanese lolitas are almost all brandwhores, stfu.

>>9478435
Elitism doesn't mean that you have to be decked out in full AP or baby.
I also never said Japan doesn't have the same problems Gaijin do, the rules and nitpicking just aren't the same there. OTT vomit may have been created in Japan, but it's really not popular there like it was. It makes gaijin look ten years behind the times though.

>>9478448
Plenty of Japanese lolitas are still wearing wigs and false lashes, idk where you have been. And the OTT trend is not ten years old, what plane of existence are you on?

>>9478407
Only of you're in a cgl/fb bubble

>>9478460
Apparently Kuniko Kato thinks dressing up only for events is common even in Japan, she said so in her latest status:
> Physical Drop's clothes, these are not special design, it is just comfortable and easy to coordinate. I always thiking how can my clothing will be a friend with your clothes in your closet. My clothing won't no big change for you, I want to give my designs for people who want to enjoy Lolita Fashion on a day-to-day.
>Somebody may wonder why Physical Drop do not sell item as set-up. It is just one answer, the sets item's coordinate is perfect. You don't need to think or worried any. But, the otherwise, it cannot be a friend with your clothes. The meaning of 'friend with your clothes' is a join in your life.
>Lolita fashion became just for 'Special', but not mine which I have been designing for almost 25 years.
>There is only minority people understanding and agreement my concept even in Japan. They enjoy Physical Drop clothing on daily. Lolita fashion fan in overseas, minority people who do not know me, read this article and knowing Physical Drop's concept, that's made me happy.

>>9479188
This was a joy to read. I'm glad she gets it and is going against the pre-made AP set thing that's so common those days. It really makes me want to support her more. A lot of it is good for daily wear.

I am so in love with all these 80s and 90s pics, thanks so much for posting them anons

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>>9479592
It's sad that there are so few sources of them online, it feels like it's always a re-hash of the same few KERA scans and pics from that one fyeahlolita post.

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>>9485333

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>>9485334

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>>9485335

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>>9485341

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>>9485344

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>>9485347

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>>9485348

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>>9485351

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>>9485353

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>>9485355

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>>9485357

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>>9485359

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>>9485361

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>>9485365
Because posting ugly shit like >>9485355 has made me feel dispirited, I'm going to end the dump on a high with a vintage 1999 Mana without the luxury of shoop.

>>9474553
Can someone tell me if by "pretty" mentionned in pic they mean like the old name for AP?

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>>9485333
>>9485335
>>9485344
>>9485347
>>9485359
>>9485365

I'd wear all of these without changing a single thing. I'm so incredibly salty I missed this era. I wonder how pre-2006 lolita is doing in japan. Probably not that much better than here considering the prices they go for.

>>9485467
I enjoy seeing the more fully-formed 90s looks like these but there were some hot messes back then, my favourite oldschool period is the early 00s. Someone mentioned in a CoF post that Japanese lolitas had an oldschool meetup in Tokyo recently (~30 attendees), but it's not popular there overall.

>>9485381
Yes.

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>>9474657
how did anons gloss passed this?

>>9477475
It is still a thing, but barely has any followers. There is also a stark difference between western and jfash cyber so take your pick. check out uuchu kei on insta, you will sometimes see some really interesting blends of wester vs eastern cyber.

>>9479188
I really like physical drop and their designer, and the brand concept really resonates with me as I like daily lolita, and am really tired of all these overly complex sets and things with prints etc. but I just wish physical drop would be more... Bright? I don't know, I like a lot of the designs but I would prefer a brighter more youthful fabric colour sometimes. I hope others support the brand though, if it fitted in my wardrobe I 100% would.

>>9485467
The fact you missed the era when these looks were popular doesn't mean you can't dress like this if this is what you like. If you're worried about judgment from your comm or people online then don't post pics, otherwise do whatever makes you happy.

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>>9485664
I'm a lone lolita and don't post coords online. I just get worried about replacing certain dresses and how hard they are to track down. They're much hardier than all the chiffon, but they're still anywhere from older than me to just a bit younger than my little sister. It feels like wearing a collector's item so I'm much more cautious with light items than I am with newer things. I can look through old GLBs and want to buy every single thing on the page. The older the items the better they fit as well. Meanwhile almost all I buy new is the occasional IW and Boz. I rarely get excited looking at coordinates online anymore even. It's not even nostalgia at all, I had seen it before but I hadn't actually got into lolita until a few years ago. It's like discovering a live performance you really love but will never be able to see. Sure there's recordings, but it'll never be the same.

I was just feeling childish last night from irl stuff, apparently I still am.

>>9477774
This is the resting bitch face I wish I had. Beautiful.

>>9478392
This was one of the images that got me into lolita! I still think she looks lovely, and I would totally wear that skirt. Though not to a meetup, desu.

I'm sorry that I have nothing to contribute but I just wanted to say thank you for this thread. I love old-school and pre-lolita so much and I haven't seen some of these pictures before.

>>9485710
With you on worrying about my older pieces, people act like they're disposable daily wear since they're often really cheap but they can be really rare and difficult to find again so I'm always anxious about damaging them.

makes me wonder if there's a space for a new brand or a current brand, running old school style in one offs?

I found lolita in the late 90's/ early 00's and what I loved most, were the block colors/plaids and bold silhouettes. That's probably nostalgia for the early Mana styles, but blues, black, reds and pinks, offset with white and browns are still my fucking jam.

I've always drifted closer to EGL, but that being said, I love OTT sweet, but seriously miss the early plainer sweet style. eh I guess it would just be nice if Old school/classic was just as appreciated or at least acceptable at meets - it feels like experimentation in Lolita has kind of been stamped out and that's just kinda sad.

>>9487024
Have you been to a meet lately? I get nothing but compliments on my oldschool coords, although I admit I don't wear anything super frumpy or controversial. BtSSB constantly re-release their oldschool sweet stuff and a lot of classic brands release really similar stuff now to then and just style it differently so I don't think those styles are needed on the market. I wish BtSSB would re-release more than just the same 6 dresses over and over though, and it'd be nice for AP to re-release anything old at all.

>>9487024
I'd honestly love a brand like this, and from the couple of oldschool threads I've seen on here it seems like many anons would too

>>9487163
It won't work because oldschoolfags are cheap as fuck despite being obsessed with quality, a western indie brand making oldschool pieces to good standards would have to charge $200 apiece and people wouldn't pay it.

>>9487024
There are jbrands that do really basic styles, I don't think they're even trying to be oldschool but they definitely haven't followed the trends for like 10 years. like physical drop, moon afternoon, and romeo, funny fairy, fairy wish, maxicimam and so on

>>9487105

I haven't! Honestly, I've been more of a lurker in lolita - I love the style, but through a combination of lack of money/time/etc I've not gone further than a few blouses and skirts etc and no real brand to speak of.
That and my spare cash generally gets funnelled into cosplay instead.

Also - britfag and the uk community is ???? It's a lot bigger now, but I'm only just back into the loop in the past year or so?

It's good to hear that old school style is still rolling around though!

>>9487208
I'm oldschool anon and I'm from the UK too. The UK community is pretty large and active, and we have huge events every year. Every city's different though, but London and the North have a lot of lolitas. There's a doc of regional comms on the Tea Party Club page.

>>9474307
my oldest piece is from 1998 but id kill for some even older stuff

>>9487710
It's pretty much impossible to solidly date stuff as older, sadly. I don't think it's a huge loss as I get the impression from photos that some of the really old stuff was crap quality compared to a few years later.

>>9487714
the quality doesnt matter as much to me. if i find something that i can at least confirm from an old snap like these itd be a dream

>>9487734
Do you lurk the oldschool thread? Stuff with a Pretty tag etc gets posted sometimes.

>>9487169
It's more about why pay twice to three times the amount on unknown quality and service when you can just buy secondhand. Old school is a niche within a niche, unless it was MTO or somehow generic but interesting enough to appeal to a lot of people they'd probably get discouraged and shut down. Part of why indie brands did so well was because of girls who didn't want to buy secondhand and wanted something cheaper than brand would go for it. You almost can't really be into old school without buying secondhand. It also won't have much resale value and I know some lolitas take that into consideration. Old school isn't as huge as recent lolita even if meta hasn't changed, so you'll get people who are too big for old school "needing" it. All together it's really not that likely.

People would still most likely buy it if it wasn't 200-300 usd for a simple plain fabric jsk, but that's most main pieces from western indie now.

>>9474657
Where did you find these anon? I need to know

>>9474679
Japanese Lolitas call JM lolita too. Otome is a western invention because people can't comprehend that there's another way to wear lolita.

>>9474552
Beautiful.

>>9495310
I remember shitposting in otome threads a couple of years ago about otome RPG, Misako calling her JM coords lolita and Emily Temple Cute in GLB. They would get so butthurt.

>>9474549
>>9474551

>those platform sandals.
What a time to have been alive.

>>9474552
I would have killed to look like this in highschool. My goodness. Love it.

>>9478388
I would totally wear the dress on the right. Sauce?

>>9495572
When did ETC advertise in the G&LB? I admit I've not read much past G&LB 20 but they never advertised in there back in the day.

>>9478390
I love this so much!

not lolita per se, but sill something that might be of intrest https://archive.org/details/fruitsmagazine

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>>9495693
Both are Moitie, even says so in the picture. It's rare and I'll fight you for it.

>>9496669
Why have I never seem this on lolibrary?

>>9485366
>DEM LEGS

>>9496668
Oh, how wonderful! You should post this to the lolita general/lolita updates.

>>9485347
This is cute as shit. Early boystyle inspiration is what I live for.

>>9496669
Fuck thats beautifull. I will fully fight you both for it

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>>9496668
Basically nothing lolita in Issue 1 unless you reallllly reach, but I can bring you more HQ versions of the coords from Issue 2 (1997!) It's so nice to finally be able to read the text.

>>9478388
>lace tights under OTKS
>>9478381
>fishnets under OTKS

I remember how people always hated on wearing tights and socks but look at how fucking good it looks! I feel like this should come back, I havent seen anyone layer legwear for a while

>>9497639
One of the things that really strikes me about these early issues of FRUiTS is that most of the outfits are actually very normie-looking, especially by the standards of UK/US 90s fashion. I'm not sure if it was out-there for Japan or if it's just that Aoki was originally looking less for eye-catching weird fashion and more to document any street style, like he'd been looking at in London. That or there just weren't enough cool kids to fill a magazine (snerk).

(pic unrelated, I just loved the English on this advert)

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>>9497643
Issue 2.

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>>9497648

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>>9497651
Not lolita but I'd be very interested in translations of this "anatomy of" thing.

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>>9497655
This doesn't even look like early lolita to me but I'm wondering if the JSK is JM or similar. I could translate it myself but I can't read Japanese and it'd take ages to look up and input the characters into a translator line by line. I'd love it if anyone who can do it faster than me could tell me.

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>>9497660
Left is distinct from other FRUiTS looks and reminds me of a lot of the punk brand spreads from early G&LBs so I'm including it even though it's more ouji + punk at a push than lolita.

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>>9497665
This little doodle says "Lolita!" Translations of the text would be really interesting but none of the OCR readers I've found pick up vertical Japanese well.

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>>9497668
It's really fucking difficult to read the stylised handwriting on pic above but I think the text right underneath the bubble writing might say "Die please?" and the rest is the author's name? I'm flying blind with Google handwriting input so I have no real clue. Second word is definitely please but first is getting translated as... "a tomb" or something?

The collar on the rightmost image of pic related looks otome so I included it but I can't tell what's relevant without being able to read the text.

>>9497660
This yellow one? It says it's used clothing (probably a no-name vintage dress)

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>>9497681
Thanks anon!

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>>9497687
Forgot to mention issue 3 starts at >>9497681and issue 4 here >>9497668. On to issue 5 now.

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>>9497697

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>>9497701

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>>9497705
Skirts here are both anciet Angelic Pretty! They're listed as "pretty" in the outfit rundown.

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>>9497709

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>>9497713
Expect a lot of Vivienne Westwood girls in this dump because, even though they are a different thing, I can't be bothered trying to discern the difference when I'm obviously not a lolita from back then (plus, Aoki didn't like photographing people wearing only one brand, so it's likely that those pictured are not pure Westwood fangirls and it might have something to do with lolita's development? IDK).

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>>9497721

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>>9497723

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>>9497724

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>>9497728
Pretty sure bottom left doodle is a lolita.

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>>9497730
Onto issue 6. Whatever this shit is, it's got a petticoat, so I'm reluctantly including it.

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>>9497733

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>>9497741
1997 Pretty makes an appearance again, bloomers this time.

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>>9497747
Lolitaesque MILK.

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>>9497750
Her blouse is listed as "for children".

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>>9497763
Top right doodle is holding a teddy bear but it's probably not relevant.

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>>9497768
Assorted goths, might be gothic lolitas but I cba translating all the brands.

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>>9497771
Alice Auaa.

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>>9497777
Finally something that looks more like lolita, but no outfit rundowns given! If I had to guess I'd say the black poofy skirt on the right might be BtSSB.

I've finished Issue 7 now and with it all of 1997 and I have to go to work. If anyone wants to continue with 1998 the scans are here:
https://archive.org/details/fruitsmagazine?and%5B%5D=year%3A%221998%22&sort=date

>>9497709
ODOB is Obscure Desire of Bourgeois, made by MILK.

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>>9495309
I found these on JM's website a couple of years ago. They used to share images of past collections from time to time, but sadly not anymore.

>>9497781
Thank you for the link

Does anyone have pictures of nagomu gals or fushigi-chan? (1980s?)

>>9486930
If you're good at sewing, you could buy the original pieces and then replicate them. Sure they'd be "fake" so to speak but it'd save the originals from being damaged.

>>9497781
Is anyone going to pick up the torch on this or am I going to have to do it?

>>9506655
Seconding this request, I'd love to see these pictures (if they exist)

>>9485615
Agreed on PD, their idea is nice but the aesthetic is just not cute. I don't want long ass prairie dresses, just cute plain frilly dresses with huge poof

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>>9513816
Some of it looks nicer worn than in stock pics, maybe then need to show it styled.

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>>9515463
That's pic related, which would be cute and poofy if the underskirt was detachable.

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Does anyone know about IDing JM? This looks like it might be a much older piece but I can't tell:
https://www.wunderwelt.jp/products/w-26121

I don't have Facebook so I can't ask in the dress ID group

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>>9497781
Issue 8, 1998

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>>9521118
Wanted to revive this thread before it saged but definitely don't have time to translate brand names.

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>>9521120
I feel sad and miss the 90s.

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>>9521127

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>>9521130

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>>9521153
Issue 9

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>>9521157

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>>9521169
Tiny lolita doodle again.

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>>9521175
The original image.

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>>9521179

>>9497641
I think part of the reason it fell out of favour was that lace tights with the wrong pattern can easily look like hairy man legs peeking out of your tights from a distance, and fishnets are a bit ero. I do like the look though.

>>9497641
its always been common with people who like moitie

>>9521127
Me too. I've been missing the 90's so badly lately.

>>9497730
The quality is too low, so I can't make out most of the kanji, probably won't be able to translate very well.

>>9521127
>>9529636
Internet and western interpretations of Lolita "subculture" really messed things up.

I think the ultimate question I've never seen brought up much, is when did the term "ita" even originate? Do we have any idea when and can pinpoint it? A LJ entry on it?

I don't think it was a term used by the GLB or brands obviously. It seems like brands always want to put out an image and what is "proper lolita" to them. I think the GLB would make up various rules and outline them, but probably not say ita directly.

However, I think ita might be a 2ch word that the young western community took and ran with. The only time I ever heard "ita" as a thing was translation from online Japanese communities. What I'm saying is, I think our whole idea of ita just originated on some /cgl/-like board and Western lolitas have taken the concept as sacred. It was probably just Japanese lolitas shitposting.

>>9535668
that lerman.biz/asagao site was one of the very early sources writing on lolita in English, and they made reference to the term ita being used in Japan. Don't know if there's an earlier one.

>>9535637
well what is your interpretation?

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some mini-crini stuff from the VW site's history section that I hadn't seen before, plus stuff from other 80s/90s collections. A lot of JM-esque stuff in the Anglomania years.

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>>9539562
This strongly reminds me of the JM shoots from '89 like in >>9474657, you can see how the VW girls and JM were linked.

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>>9539564

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>>9539566
obligatory

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>>9539574
"Mini-Crini, SS 1985
- Cardinal change. Fitted clothes. English tailoring. Princess line coats inspired by the Queen as a child.
- Wish to kill masculine big shoulders of the 1980s.
- Models sexy, curvaceous, attention drawn to hips.
- Mini-Crini inspiration: Petrushka.
- Rocking horse shoes"

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>>9539582
"1988 – 1992
During this period Vivienne’s heros changed from punks and ragamuffins to ‘Tatler’ girls wearing clothes that parodied the upper class. A chance encounter inspired one of her most important and influential collections, the Harris Tweed collection of Autumn/Winter 1987.
“My whole idea for this collection was stolen from a little girl I saw on the tube one day. She couldn’t have been more than 14. She had a little plaited bun, a Harris Tweed jacket and a bag with a pair of ballet shoes in it. She looked so cool and composed standing there.”

Collections:

Harris Tweed, AW 1987 – 88
- Tailored and childish look inspired by Royal Family continued.
- Inspiration: British fabrics, especially wool which had provided all the uniforms of the British Empire. Black velvet.
- 18th century corset.
- Fine twin sets now fashion."

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>>9539585
Back to FRUiTS.

Issue 10, 1998. Somehow I'm more attracted to the girl on the right.

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>>9539592
Coat girl is wearing bloomers but IDK the brand.

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>>9539598
Lots of VW.

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>>9539601

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>>9539611
Bloomers worn as shorts was apparently a trend?

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>>9539613

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>>9539616
Another famous early scan now reliably dated to 1998.

>>9539613
Is that Jacket adidas or MILK? THe breast logo looks like it's not Adidas.

Also does she have a dummy around her neck like a PLUR thing or like a baby thing?

I'm just baffled by this sports jacket + extremely frilly bloomers look. They just didn't give a fuck back then.

>>9497713
Couple on the left reminded me of Miwako and Arashi

>>9539616
The girl in blue is cracking me up. 90s were trully a better time to be alive.

>>9539628
The credit for the jacket just states that it's thrifted. It almost looks like a Miller Brewery Logo? There is a pacifier around her neck.

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>>9539660
Not the exact one, but it's from the 80's.

>>9539664
Ah, gotcha! Mi for Miller.

>>9496669
One of these came up on Mercari a couple months ago. It was an instant sell and was really quite expensive.

Does anyone know when MILK heart bag first came out? I want to make a timeline for things that have been important to lolita. Btw, without lolibrary I'm having a hard time deciding which other releases have been influential.

I also want to make it go way back to rococo and victorian times to show what inspired lolita.

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>>9540360
>>9540362
I made this of some of the notable releases year or so ago when you could still search lolibrary by year. It's not that great but you can take it if it helps, I used to use it to show normie friends when they didn't get how modern lolita was different from anime oldschool.

>>9540530
This is great, thank you! I hope lolibrary fully comes back soon so I can also check when milky-chan and usakumya started appearing

I'm also looking at other timelines and I wonder about a few things, for example this one

The 1980s

1983: Indie label "Nagomu Records" is founded by Kera, vocalist of "Uchoten"
Spawned such bands as Kinniku Shoujo-Tai, Jinsei (later Denki Groove), Tama, Tomorowo Taguchi's Bachikaburi, and Shine-Shine-Dan. Expressing something different from the rock that had been dominant up until that time, it causes a subculture movement. Nagomu-kei fans known as "Nagomu Gals" appear. They are connected to the later lolita fashion.
1984: Indie label "Trance Records" is founded.
Represented by such bands as YBO2. The polar opposite of Nagomu-kei bands, they play dark, heavy music. Connected to the later goth fashion.
(NOTE: The bands' fans were known as "Trance Gals.")
HYSTERIC GLAMOUR is founded.
Kitschy, American-casual-style brand HYSTERIC GLAMOUR is founded by designer Nobuhiko Kitamura.
Vivienne Westwood first comes to Japan
She first shows her collection in Tokyo with Hanae Mori and others.
(Note: Calvin Klein, Claude Montana, and Gianfranco Ferre were the others.)
1985: The "Hoko-ten Boom" begins.
Replacing the Takenoko-zoku, live street performances on Harajuku's Omote-Sando Boulevard become popular. This led to the "band boom" that continued until 1995. Bands coming out of this scene include JUN SKY WALKER(S), THE BOOM, and BAKU.
1986: BUCK-TICK make their indie-label debut.
Still popular with gothloli girls today, they make their indie-label debut with "TO SEARCH/PLASTIC SYNDROME2." They set a legendary record for indies-chart sales at the time.

1987: Mandarake Inc. founded.
They not only sell old manga and retro toys, but also spread the culture of cosplay and doujinshi into the world.
1988: X (Japan) make their indie-label debut.
The now-legendary band X's debut "Vanishing Vision" goes on sale. The costumes subsequently worn by X fans can be called a culture. Its history begins at the same time as the arrival of the Visual-kei band boom.
BABY, THE STARS SHINE BRIGHT is founded.
The brand now synonymous with "lolita" is founded.
1989: Audition program "Ika-Ten" begins airing.
Brings about the debut of such bands as FLYING KIDS, BLANKEY JET CITY, Tama, JITTERIN' JINN, and BEGIN.
Jane Marple's first shop opens.
Having operated up until now without having its own shop, clothing brand Jane Marple opens its first shop in Laforet Harajuku
>>9540612

I wonder why they mention Hysteric Glamour, since it wasn't something new to make western-styled clothes in the 80s (MILK opened in the 70s). Also, was Mandarake Inc. important? I've never heard of it outside this timeline and don't really get how it relates to lolita or fashion and music fans.
>>9540614

>>9540530
The move toward shapeless ugly sack dresses saddens me. The simplicity of early 00's lolita is refreshingly nice, I took it for granted then but I miss it.

>>9540620
nayrt but I think it's worth noting that the collage is focussed on sweet, and many gothic and classic brands have low waist or natural waist, simple dresses, and sweet brands that are less popular than AP.

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>>9540565
If I re-made it I would include Twinkle Mermaid (2006) and another early screen-print, I regret not representing that screenprinting and applique started trending before digital printing did. Twinkle Mermaid was extremely popular at the time and the way it was styled in brand ads really began the full transition away from oldschool and into the OTT sweet wig look. It was also a sort of halfway house between screenprinting and full detailed digital printing, because it's a screenprint (as far as I know) but used multiple colours instead of just one.

I'd also try to make the whole of the second half less cool-toned, represent at least one or two popular/influential non-AP sweet releases, and expand beyond 2016. I ended on Milky Swan at the time because it really seemed to sum up the direction lolita was going in, but AP have changed their aesthetic again now and Milky Swan wasn't even that popular, so I'd probably delete it. Misty Sky belongs on there somewhere too I think.

>>9540617
Mandarake operate a thrift store/consignment sort of thing and sell some lolita items. I have a friend who bought some old brand stuff from them while in Japan but I'm not sure how long ago they started doing that.

>>9540617
Manadarake was more important for kawaii/otaku/neet culture in general, and defined a place where people could gather and buy and sell goods. Lolita was part of that

Fruits-anon, thank you for dumping these scans. I have been enjoying this portal into late 90s fashion, both the lolita and non-lolita snapshots. I like how the lolita depicted is focused on walkable street wear instead of latter day esoteric meetup-only getups. It is killing me on how everyone in these pics are now in their late 30s and pyshing into their 40s.

>>9541060
I think the inclusion of Milky Swan is a good thing actually. It shows the larme influence AP was using and the fact that it wasn't that popular speaks to the weird identity crisis they were (are still?) going through.

>>9540617
Mandarake was also one of the first places that attempted to have US presence since they opened a couple of stores here around the early/mid 2000s, and opened up their webstore to international buyers far ahead of the curve.

No matter how much we want to separate the two, lolita and weeb culture were very hand in hand at the beginning of its spread overseas.

>>9497641
I just recently wore fishnets under UTKs with a Moitie coord. Didn't look too bad I don't think. We wear the style for ourselves after all, you should experiment with it if you like the look.

>>9539613
>>9539628

It's a little blurry, but the fashion point has
赤ちゃん In it. Akachan = baby

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>>9541060
Wrapping Cherry, imo, is a better example for their weird Larme phase. It even was modeled without a blouse and with a Larme model, as if it was sending a message to that audience that "this is okay if you wear our lolita print Larme styled". It was a good, subtle fusion of lolita and Larme, hence it's success. Milky Swan was altogether forgotten and not something I ever hear anyone talk about. I think it was too blatantly Larme down to swans relating to Swankiss.

I feel like we shouldn't forget AP's micro-phase of crosses and crucifixes. What would you say would be the defining print of that? I feel like Cecilia Cross was the pinnacle of failure for AP's religious influenced prints, like how you think of Milky Swan as the peak of failure Larme-influenced prints.

What was really the most iconic cross print of that religious phase? Or rather, what AP print set off the whole "Holy" phase?

>>9539628
Rave fashion was huge then so my guess is the pacifier is from that look

>>9542156
Celestial is the pinnacle of success for AP's cross period in my mind. Also Milky Cross was pretty popular.

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>>9540530
Good work anon! I just feel like this would be better if you stuck to a constant in the images, rather than switch between Japanese street snaps, western lolitas, and actual advertisements.

Also Honey Cake really shouldn't be there, it wasn't a very popular release in Japan and maybe only one chocolate print. And you definitely need misty sky on here, and the jump from the BTSSB Alice JSK to Fruits Parlor is too big, there are some transitional prints there that led up to fruits parlor (like Macaron, Pastel A La Mode, Twinkle Mermaid, etc)

>>9542438
Honey Cake is iconic in the West so worth including regardless of its popularity in Japan. I actually didn't include Cats Tea Party because I didn't think it was as influential, even though it was popular. It seemed like a nice dress but didn't spawn a surge in the popularity of similar styles, whereas Honey Cake and the otome/ETC boom seem tied together to me.

>>9541671
AP have released much more obvious larme bait in 2017 though. If you wanted something to show AP's 2016 crisis when they started printing everything on chiffon and slapping random crosses on it, switched up their colour palette and started using Risa as their main model, something more popular would be a better idea, like Celestial that >>9542419 mentioned, or the edgy pentagram back cut of Milky Cross.

>>9541625
Thanks anon, this thread nearly saged a bunch of times so I'm glad people are interested now.

>>9542438
I deliberately tried to use a range of images because I think they're all important to representing the style - how brands viewed an "ideal" look, how that was reflected on the Japanese streets, and what trends took off in the west. I do kind of hate the uguu kawaii Milky Planet western snap on row 2 and think the post looks out of place compared to the rest, so I think that's worth switching out.

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>>9542438
>>9542874
Also note that for oldschool in particular, there's often a huge gap between what brand ads looked like and what street snaps looked like. There was a lot of conceptual styling for photoshoots and AP went through a long phase where their ads included dresses that never went into production, or had been fancied up by sewing on extra flowers/pearls/etc which weren't on the versions available for general sale (kind of like they do for some fashion shows today).

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Let's be honest here: How much of this would be considered ita today?

>>9542972
Oh, a metric fuck tonne of it. But that's what's so fun about these old pictures.

>>9539592
I turned it upside down and realised it's a guy and not a short-haired girl and now I feel disappointed.

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>>9542897
I agree with you that advertisements are not always equal to how the style was actually worn. You see candly colored wigs in some early brand advertisements but they don't show up often in street snaps until around 2008 at the earliest. I think you were better off using snaps to demonstrate your point. Maybe do one for Japanese lolitas and one for Western lolitas, considering how different the styles can be even just cross continents.

>>9542897
I've been considering adding my own embellishments to my own dresses for a while now, so I'm absolutely tickled that they used to do this for ads back then. It's just so damn charming.

>>9542972
All the more reason to go lone and not deal with other people's opinions. Everything in this thread has just been wonderful.

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>>9545713
Yeah, it was really cute! People have found a few examples of it in oldschool threads, like an Alice OP with card suit appliqué added. There's no proof if this one was embellished or sold as is but I feel like the roses might have been added on got similar reasons.

It'd be nice to know if they were intended as suggestions for how to customise your own piece or just as conceptual things (like when the fashion show version of an undersea print OP last year had bubble-looking pearls on it but the retail didn't, stuff like that comes up on Lolita Updates sometimes)

>>9485355
the original hobolita

>>9543931
I'm really digging the bag.

>>9542897
I think that's still the case now. I heard in Jpn and China there are a lot of lolitas who wear lolita clothes without petticoat and coorded really basic with no headwear unless they go to an event.

This thread gives me life.

I'm literally having trouble breathing because of how beautiful this is. >>9477774

>>9543931
Does anyone know how often these bags come up for sale? I've seen Western lolitas with them before so they're not ultra rare.

>>9553181
The bunny one I don't see as much, but the similar winged bear I've seen 2-3 times in the last few months on Mercari and y!j.

I'm so happy this thread is still going.

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>>9541060
Twinkle Mermaid uses 3 colors in the print, but was available in either pastel or monochromatic prints making two separate colorways for each color of the jsk/op/skirt. (Correct me if I am wrong, but I haven't seen a brand do something like that since?)

AP did release prints which had more colors in the silk screening process (like their Cinderella print) prior to Twinkle Mermaid, but the print itself was less detailed and the actual ink on the dress feels heavier/thicker.

>>9474552
This girl was so ahead of her time.

>>9497665
Holy shit, those two on the left are inspirational as fuck.

>>9553186
I might keep an eye out, I just love the fact that the bunny has its own little dress. I don't really find it cute though, more creepy (I know that's the point but I'm not sure if I'd like it in my room), so it'd hard to know whether it's worth it.

>>9553181
>>9553186
Pardon my ignorance, but what brand are they even from? I used to think they were BPN but they're not coming up when I search.

>>9553181
>>9553414
>>9560569
That's a Putumayo bag and the white colorway is still in stock here: http://putumayo.co.jp/SHOP/68000041.html

>>9560601
Ty anon.

>>9474289
Normally an /a/ shitter, but really liking these threads.

>Does a fashion inherently have to form strict rules to become successful, like lolita did?
I think that the rules for defining lolita/ita as it is presented on /cgl/ are obsessively focused on authenticity to a prescribed letter to the detriment of valid coords that work despite not being 1000% kosher to lolita bible standards.

>Do you like old old-school? Or is it definitely a product of its time?
I like what I have seen in this thread because it looks much more DIY friendly than later versions that are much more baroque. Some of the elements, particularly the plaid patterns are definitly time specific, but the question I have running in my mind with each and every one of these is "Does it work, is it practical?"

>If you're an oldfag, what year did you first see/hear about lolita?
Around 2004-2005, I had friends who were into Mana and Malice Mizer.

A lot of these outfits are adorable, but most of them just don't seem to match Asian faces/body types well. Is that just because there's no shoop involved or because they picked up girls on the street?

>>9567338
Oh wait, I see why- everyone has terrifying eyebrows.

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>>9560601
Oh whoops thanks, thought it was Meta bc they made a similar one in 2005, unless this entry is wrong. https://lolibrary.org/items/meta-bunny-pochette

>>9567345
I still can't decide if Insta-brows or eyeliner brows are a worse lolita look.

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Miho Matsuda's site has a history of the brand that includes pictures dated by year. Unfortunately they're all pictures for ants.

http://mihomatsuda.jp/history.html

>1997
>Current designer Miho Matsuda who ceased to be an apparel company in Tokyo and started returning to Osaka started a part - time job at a shoe shop in the village of Osaka. A unique hit such as tree bottom and so on here! Originally, the brand name as "MIHO MATSUDA" to sell together the clothing which is the main business opening, the first shop opened in Osaka Ame village!
>(At this time, it is said that one of five people walking in an American village in Osaka is wearing shoes, creates a thick bottom boom before a gal type fashion thick base boom such as Amuro Namie)
>* SHOE, BAG Detective Bureau thick bottom shoe From the transition of

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>>9572716

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>>9572717
>1998
>Shibuya opened in Nagoya PARCO, about 10 directly operated stores

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>>9572719
>2001
>Re-deploy "MIOHO MATSUDA" as a sponsor of Kobayashi Co., Ltd.! Maruiwan Shinjuku, Vibe Okayama, Osaka shop etc. directly operated 3 stores

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>>9572720
>2003
>Established the Gold Seals Co., Ltd. Independent entrepreneurship!

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>>9572724
All the other pics are 2007 or later so not relevant. There's this header image as well but it's not dated so it's hard to tell whether it's old or not.

>>9521181
That girl's three-tier hime cut thing is super cute and her whole outfit looks wearable today.

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Not sure when, but here's a fun tartan piece.

>>9474553
Tfw you own that dress.

>>9496669
Tfw you own that dress but have never worn it

>>9576629
How much would you want for it anon?

>>9496840
There's so much MmM not on there. I have a moitie op without a ll listing.

>>9496840
Because nobody added it

>>9576791
Why don't you add it?

>>9576879
ntayrt but the adding function has been down for a year, I've got a lot of pictures that have been sitting in a saved folder waiting for it to go back up for months. Stuff like non-pictured colourways of stuff that has listings and stuff with no listing at all.

>>9474289
>Does a fashion inherently have to form strict rules to become successful, like lolita did?
No, and in most of Asia, lolita doesn't either. It's pretty much a Western invention. Was the best way to tell people the difference between lolita and cheap Ebay lacemonsters.

>Do you like old old-school? Or is it definitely a product of its time?
Both. I like it (altrough only to look, not to watch), but it's defiantly a product of it's time. I don't think it ever comes back like that. I wonder if the Japanese just see it as just being "out of fashion/old-fashioned" or almost like a substyle like we do tho.

>>9576924
Lolibrary states they now work trough slack, and if you aren't invited as a contributor you can request to be by sending a mail. If you want to contribute, check their contact page.

>>9474833
I want those shoes.

>>9515464
>>9515463
These dresses are absolutely perfect.

I read somewhere that pink house, or at least it's style, influenced lolita. Is this true?

>>9577258
Holy shit, when did that happen? I had no idea since nothing seems to have been added in months and a lot of releases are missing.

>>9577258
Wtf, why?

>>9576924
Baby has their "classical line" to cater to old school so they're definitely aware people wear it. Too bad most old school fans are cheap and would never buy from that line.

>>9577513
Did you reply to the wrong post? Regardless, I don't think there's a need to generalise about oldschoolfags in that way. There are anons on here that pay $250+ for rare oldschool pieces so I don't think we're all that cheap.

I personally own multiple things from the Classical series but there are certain re-releases I'd never buy because they've changed the sizing/cut in a way that makes it feel inauthentic to me or wouldn't fit as well (I don't mind changes to details or colour as much as the fact they increase the skirt volume in a lot of the re-releases and it loses some of the oldschool charm). I'll admit though that for most of them I only bought new because I really liked the updated design or wanted a new colour that hadn't been released before. It's a two-sided coin I guess because people don't want the designs to change and not be "real oldschool" but also won't pay $200 for a dress that's identical to something they could get second-hand for $50. I think one of the reasons people avoid buying it is that it's perceived as not real oldschool moreso than the price.

>>9515463
Do you have any more worn photos of PD dresses? Their stuff seems right up my alley but whoever is taking their stock photos isn't doing them any favors.

>>9539624
I love the girl on the right so much, her boots are awesome. I'm not super into old school overall but I wish clunky shoes had stayed in fashion. I'm so not into modern lolita shoes. They're so delicate.

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>>9577959
I think Kato tagged the girl who took these on PD's Facebook page, if you look you should be able to find her. There's also the Insta tag and you can search it on CoF.

https://www.instagram.com/explore/tags/physicaldrop/

>>9475003
>crocs confirmed as lolita

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>>9540530
My favorite era is right in that gap between early 2000's and Fruits Parlor. Pic related.

>>9582081
Do you like that weird saturated pastel era of lolita too?

>>9578011
If your style is kuro/gothic you should totally wear them. There are popular western lolitas that rock them nowadays although i'm biased because i love boots too.

>>9578011
I would love to see different types of shoes and boots with ''modern'' lolita, in every substyle

>>9474551
I want those shoes.

>>9540530
>tfw i eventually got this very cut and colorway of dreamy planetarium after a year of hunting
>tfw i got it at the lower price i've ever seen it sold
>tfw i'm going to make it my best coord ever soon

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>>9598635

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>>9598637

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>>9598639

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>>9598640

>>9576629
I have it too, but I bought it knowingly with a hole that needs sewing where the zipline is, and I haven't got around to doing it yet.

>>9474941
OMG what is this site, I love it
http://lerman.biz/asagao/gothic_lolita/guide.html

>>9477774
I'm sorry if this is ignorant but WHY the black shoes & purse? I just don't get it. Please do explain.

>>9601832
Black accessories were acceptable as "goes with everything" back in the day, mostly because lolitas did not yet have access to the rainbow of shoes/bags that exist now.

>>9497724
i've always really loved the look on the left
>>9521127
those girls are iconic
>>9521181
omg hair goals

>>9601864
Ah, I see,, ty anon.

>>9601864
They had white tho. They are just not as anal about matchyness as cgl. Never were and aren't now.

Why was everything so plaid in the 90s?

>>9608217
Punk and grunge had a huge influence on everyone.

>>9548819
Same

>>9541060
Pardon my dumb question, but what is the difference between a screenprint and regular print? Are screenprints just the old simple ones?

>>9609784
I've seen several WTB posts for that bag even though it's been available in their store and it''s still available in white. People are so dumb.

>>9608217
Because they had taste

>>9609845
Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically:

Screen printing is where you deposit ink through a screen with some spots blocked out, kind of like a stencil. Doing multiple colors requires multiple steps where you deposit the ink, let it dry, and then deposit the next color with a different stencil and so on. The more colors, the more complicated and time consuming it gets.

Digital printing works kind of like a big fancy desktop printer. You can do whatever design you want in however many colors you want.

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I dug up something from Japanese twitter.

https://twitter.com/oldpicture1900/status/811596903045468160

This is from the early 1970s, the color photographs are from seventeen magazine, and the black and white photographs are street snaps in Harajuku.

>>9613275
Thanks anon.

>>9475377
Japanese people in the fashion don't seem to have a concept of "otome". When Yuko Ando from Leur Getter/ETC was asked about it at SFE this year she seemed confused with the term and said she makes casual lolita clothes ("soft lolita?") so people can wear it in a more regular basis.

>>9478392
I used to stare at this girl forever! Her hair is so perfect and she looks just like a porcelain doll... my dokis....

>>9616950
In case you didn't know, that's Sachi from Kokusyoku Sumire, it's easy to find more photos and videos of her.

>>9616948
Are there any videos or anywhere I can read that interview?