Old one reached the image limit.
Does anyone know which skirt this is? I only know it's Moitié.
On top of that, gothic has changed a lot, it used to be closer to classic than nowadays. Some prefer the more gothic/classic borderline look, as opposed to say the borderline sweet/gothic look that AatP has been putting out these days.
>it used to be closer to classic than nowadays
did it though
Um, Moitie is the epitome of gothic lolita.
>it used to be closer to classic than nowadays
>being so intent on using terms so lame that they got filtered that you reformat it
I've made plenty of gothic threads in the past and I don't want to keep redumping my favourite pictures.
So, as the major gothic brand, they are very indicative of the style and what it looked like a certain points in time. Gothic indeed used to be more full on, especially the hair and makeup. Even brands that aren't very gothic these days were more goth, look at an old bible.
>Contributing since you certainly aren't.
i posted most of the images in the last thread. those Mana pics you quoted here were because anon claimed gothic used to resemble classic, which didn't make sense to me, but they explained after.
be cool, anon.
I didn't say that gothic looked exactly like classic. I meant that it had more elegance to it in the past, but has gone too cutesie, and too close to sweet style in some elements, especially with some brands'obsessions with prints.
Moitie might be a major gothic brand and the first one that a lot newcomers to the fashion discover, however I don't think they're the best one. I've heard a lot of negative things about their quality in recent years. I personally prefer Atelier Boz. I like the clean, sharp lines if a lot of their pieces.
It's gothic all right, but it just looks.... off. The accessories are very OTT while the dress itself isn't, and it leaves the whoe outfit looking awkward and very costumey. The line of diamonds, which I can't tell if they're makeup or the trim on the lace across her face, make her look like she's copying the look from Black Butler's Undertaker. The skull headband and the skull case thing on a chain, combined with the sash, and the Elizabethan style collar thing behind her.... it's too much, and not coherent. Shame, as underneath all of that looks like an otherwise decent enough outfit otherwise. This is an example of what's happened to gothic lolita too much nowadays - it's gone too OTT and costumey, like sweet style did, and in doing so, has lost its sophistication.
I didn't say that it doesn't have a place here. Look at my first words. I said that yeah, it's a gothic outfit, no two ways about it. However, I was remarking that it's in the trend that gothic's gone down recently, as opposed to how it used to be - after the criticisms earlier about the borderline classic stuff from the last thread. I'm not the person who tried claiming it doesn't have a place here.
Can you tell me a bit more about how they've gone downhill? What era would you say was better for them? I'm wanting to get into Moitie since a lot of anons praised it in the quality thread.
I don't own enough myself (because of the reasons stated below) to say exactly when, but whenever I've seen pieces from the last few years, I've been very disappointed in terms of the quality. Things like the print designs feeling like the print is the same as that from t-shirt printing shops, or band t-shirts, and like it could just crack and flake off. The polyester itself hasn't felt very good quality. This is including highly sought-after pieces which have sold on the second hand market for well over original retail prices. I've been hearing bad things about the quality of their recent chiffon dresses as well. I've heard these things from lts of different sources, such as from various people I've spoken to, and from lurking on here.
Anon you originally replied to. Let me get this right... you're saying that because Moitie has their own iconic style that is the only way gothic can look? Does that mean that because Mary Magdalene is one of the original classic brands that only MM is real classic, and IW's softer, less mature style isn't actually classic? That's a really stupid opinion. That also has nothing to do with what was being said, which is that outfits that newbs now classify as classic used to be widely accepted as/considered gothic. That is also like saying that newer sugary/OTT sweet is not sweet, because it's not oldschool sweet.
>You are in fact in the wrong.
I don't think you know what facts are.
Are you citing AatP or something for this? Because they've never been exclusively gothic. Skirts in gothic used to be shorter and poofier, and what was known as Mana puffs too. That's much "cutsier" than lots of current trends that people try in gothic. How do prints equal sweet, exactly? Do you even own Moitie?
I found Divine Cross in velveteen of surprisingly bad quality, but I own a few releases from this year and they are all very solid. The only downside is that the keep using that cross arch lace which isn't as nice as their older chemical lace types.
I said it was indicative, please read. Stop putting words into my mouth and read. And like I said, pick up a G&LB. You will see that the anon who posted the pictures indicating that gothic had heavy makeup and more full on hair in the old school era was right, not just for Moitie but for all gothic brands circa 2001-2005 and also later. The outfits that are classic in this thread and the older one were never gothic. There have always been people who think that black Baby dresses with thick cotton lace and ruffling are gothic for some reason though so maybe you're one of the eternal noobs who never learnt the difference.
No, not exclusively AatP. Atelier Pierrot's style's also gone down a similar route, it feels, from looking at old GLBs and owning some old school AtPi. In addition to this, a lot of the TaoBao brands which put out a lot of gothic stuff seem to learn towards the newer take on gothic, it feels like, most of the time. As for owning some Moitie, I do own some, actually, but have examined more than I own. It's not that I dislike Moitie, I just don't think it's the best gothic brand out there, especially for the pricetag it often commands.
In comparing how gothic has changed, it's easier and more meaningful when you compare the same brands across a period. Taobao brands are a lot different in that gothic is the least popular style in China so they deviate a lot from the Japanese gothic brands and tend to often be very sweet inspired. While they still make a lot of their staple pieces, Atelier Pierrot seem to have taken onto the painting trend. However, lots of gothic brands have retained the same style over the years, such as Moitie, Antique Beast, Atelier Boz, BPN (until they were defunct), Miho Matsuda, Millenoirs, etc. It seems more like the brands that were never purely gothic to begin with have been the ones to edge towards the more classical or sweet side, depending on the brand.
>It seems more like the brands that were never purely gothic to begin with have been the ones to edge towards the more classical or sweet side, depending on the brand.
there is a reason the styles of gothic and lolita are often in distinct caregories. it's the Gothic AND Lolita Bible, and shops often put brands like Moitie, Boz, etc. in the Gothic/Punk category, not the Lolita category. (Closet Child, Tokyo Alice, and others.)
>There have always been people who think that black Baby dresses with thick cotton lace and ruffling are gothic for some reason though so maybe you're one of the eternal noobs who never learnt the difference.
And noobs like you always seem to pick out the kuro sweet argument as if it's ever what anyone is talking about. Like, I thought you were whining about classic? Pick a subject.
You really don't know how to read so it's not wonder you can't tell the difference between the styles.
>knows they're wrong
>doesn't address anything except to say "lol noob" as though it makes them right
Try reading next time, and doing some research.
Still haven't addressed how exactly the style has changed so that the looks- whichever ones you disliked, because you didn't even point anything out but a vague 'classic was posted' complaint- aren't gothic, though.
That was covered lightly earlier in the thread, again, please read. I don't dislike classic or sweet, it's just annoying when people think it's gothic when it's not. Your second sentence doesn't make much sense, I suggest you proofread.
>posts another classic in black outfit
Oh dear. Please for the love of god pick up an old G&LB if you want to post on here.
>disregards when they explained how you're wrong only to nitpick on something that isn't relevant as has already been discussed a dozen times
The archive exists for a reason so you have no excuse to be lazy. There is always at least one noob arguing about how they're not wrong when they insist that they know about gothic. Why is it so hard to understand the difference? Srsly. Current pic dump anon posted some lolzworthy pictures too.
hey remember that time Mana called a long thin poofless skirt "Elegant Gothic Lolita"?
what a noob lmao
You're asking me if English is my first language because of an odd phrase, but not questioning someone saying "she's a taxidermist, she makes her own" about a human skull replica bag?
I know this is the gothic thread, but that's a bit extreme there, m8.
I really dig that outfit but she should remove that huge band and maybe some of the jewelry around her neck. I think it totally fits this thread, it's just a shame she overdid it a bit.
I'm not even sure if that big round collar is a bad thing. maybe it's a bit over top but it's still aesthetic.
Her headpiece is kinda genius though.
this is the info from mossmarchen's post:
skirt, rose corsage: Victorian Maiden
necklace: Alice and the Pirates
parasol: Baby the Stars Shine Bright
rose bow: h.Naoto FRILL
blouse, corset: thrift shop finds
I remember when blackxwhite outfits used to be be referred to as 'gothic lolita' even within glorious nippon and the G&L bible itself. That would have really rattled your cage.
This 'not gothic' notion popping up every bloody thread is getting tiring - outside unequivocally full-on, 'bats shitting' dark makeup goth there will inevitability be areas of grey that not everyone can agree on.
I would suggest rather than continuing to comment that such and such 'isn't gothic', people should just post what they think fits the bill instead.
For me, pic related is very much in the 'gothic' category, even without any cross motifs etc the sumptuous ruffles and details are reminiscent to me of romantic Victorian mourning clothing. Even the classic leaning styles I feel often encompass the feel of Victorian mourning clothing, which could be interpreted as a sort of retro goth (Victorian and/ or romantic goth), not necessarily directly associated with 1980s post-punk era.
Gothic subculture has always been extremely diverse and people have been arguing about what is and what isn't since the beginning. For me 'gothic' is primarily about atmosphere, something that encompasses beauty in the macabre, a romantic sort of melancholy and elements of mystery, as well as taking influence from a more historical context pertaining to architecture, literature etc.
I've always loved siriusc's take on gothic, it's not full on but I really think it captures that melancholic, reflective Victorian type atmosphere. Whilst some of the looks could happily sit in the 'classic' category as well, I feel they are still very much gothic in mood.
Pic related contains an image of Queen Victoria's five daughters Alice, Helena, Beatrice, Victoria and Louise all wearing mourning attire beneath a bust of their late father Prince Albert. I see a lot of similarities in siriusc's outfits.
I mean, to me capturing the sort of atmosphere of prominent Victorian's in mourning is goth as fuck but hey.
>I remember when blackxwhite outfits used to be be referred to as 'gothic lolita' even within glorious nippon and the G&L bible itself
Nope, it was separate for "gothic" and "lolita". Please check. Do you really think shit like >>8765936 and >>8768301 and >>8774287 and >>8774358 (some particularly bad examples) is gothic? It's obvious you don't wear the style or are very new to it. Gothic lolita is very different from western gothic.
please provide detailed concrit of examples posted
>>8768301 is solidly Gothic Lolita in my view, so i am most curious to hear your specific objections to it
>Just do some research so you actually know what the style is before posting. Not that hard.
people who assume what they see is self-evident are acting pretty autistic tbf
Wow. Herein lies the anality of your flawed arguement. You're mixing things up. On one hand, you're trying to claim that they're not gothic, while also trying to say that they're not gothic lolita. Gothic and gothic lolita are not the same style. You're trying to be pedantic here, and are falling flat on your arse. What we call Aristocrat is also known as 'Elegant Gothic'. There are many, many substyles of gothic, which can overlap with other styles. These outfits you're trying to discredit here are perfectly good examples of gothic lolita. The Bibles are called such because they cover all the different subsets of lolita, including gothic lolita, and gothic, mainly elegant gothic/aristocrat, both male and female variants. >>8774550 has it right.
Old fag here, You're obviously very new here. For ages, nearly everything that's black is considered "Gothic lolita" manas brand of lolita or as he dubed it "Elegant Gothic lolita" has always been understood to be a different take on the usual gothic style. But everything quoted is very much Gothic lolita.
Try and do some reaserch instead of just lurking here and regurgutating what other newb anons say.
I don't have the time and can't be bothered right now. It should be really obvious, especially with Aqua Princess, seriously. So I'll just reply to the one you were most confused about.
>>8768301 is just old school sweet in a darker colour palette. The shoes and bag could work for gothic due to their simplicity, but the materials and cut of the headdress (round, ruffly with that thick cotton lace), the cuteness of the blouse and the huge peter pan collar, the thick cotton frou frou skirt = sweet.
>people who assume what they see is self-evident are acting pretty autistic tbf
That makes no sense. You would say many things are evident that I imagine you would say don't make you autistic. Such as being able to identify a Baby print from an AP one. It's as easy as that.
You're a moron. Obviously when someone says gothic in a thread on here, they are referring to gothic lolita. Aristocrat is not called "elegant gothic". How new are you? EGA and EGL refer specifically to Moitie clothing of those styles, although sometimes even Meta use EGL to describe their stuff (despite being one of the less elegant brands). The bible lists gothic lolita as straight up gothic, please open one.
The evolution of a style doesn't mean the cancelation of what used to be. Just because sweet has evolved doesn't mean that old school sweet is no longer sweet. The same applies to Gothic.
Lol, that is the classic new fag argument. I will have been wearing lolita for 10 years next year. So not new. And I have always worn primarily gothic. If you think MmM is a different take on gothic lolita, that says it all. Just wow. For some reason it is really hard for western lolitas to understand the difference between the three styles. Not sure why it's so difficult.
Seriously. These people don't like hearing that their Baby Karami JSK isn't gothic so they call people newfags when they certainly weren't around when it was released and don't know what they are talking about whatsoever.
Not the point I'm trying to make either. A dark palette but otherwise sweet lolita style dress is still sweet, but more like what some will try and call bittersweet. But that doesn't mean that there aren't still variants on actual gothic lolita. Sometimes, classic lolita dresses can work really well for gothic coords because of how the overall outit is put together and presented. Sometimes cuts and styles can be close enough to match what the traditionally gothic brands put out to work perfectly well as gothic lolita. This arguement is well past its expiry date.
Do some reaserch, there are interviews as well as just common fucking sense. this used to be such common knowledge I'm stunned that someone so poorly informed would even be this confident.
>itt: newfags who think that they can fit in be being edgy and saying gothic lolita is/was just sweet in black and that gothic a la Moitie is/was considered out of the norm
I have really lost all faith in /cgl/
Tbh I'm not sure why this is an argument. You can go through G&LB/kera scans that, as well as go through street snap. If your Japanese is OK, a lot of peoples point of fashion is "Gothic lolita" combined with cgl and D_L post at the time you can see that in both Japan and in the US Gothic wasn't always a specific ~gothic~ style and would loads of times just be sweet or classic in black. It's always been more of a color palate thing.
Tbh I'm quite desilutioned with cgl I didn't realize it was quite so newby. And while its cool that Gothic has evolved too, I find it odd that what used to be Gothic would no longer be considered Gothic.
It really says a lot that people on FB and the newbies who ask questions on egl know more than this dumbass newfag on here.
Says you, I made one post. And someone definitely said that Moitie was not what is normally considered gothic (lol), scroll up. Reading comprehension, obviously if I disagree with that, I am contesting that they were not popular in the older bibles, at least much more so than today. I really hope we're all just falling for bait.
Newsflash for all these newfags: gosu rori was a common term to describe lolita in general (all three main styles) back in the day as gothic used to be the most popular. It's an umbrella term. Doesn't actually make everything gothic.
So much this. Srsly, rolling my eyes at some of these replies.
>that's what Gothic used to be. Literally just sweet in black.
>manas brand of lolita or as he dubed it "Elegant Gothic lolita" has always been understood to be a different take on the usual gothic style
Protip: If you can't tell the difference, you should leave
This is from the same time period. Yes, there was a very large distinction between gothic and sweet in black
Why does this come up every thread? Why are people so stupid and too lazy to do research so they call people who know what they are talking about newfags? Posting >>8775401 really shouldn't be necessary.
Elegant Gothic lolita and anything similar to moities look which meta has hopped has always been a much more Gothic look to the usual Gothic lolita. But both would have still been concidered "Gothic lolita". By both the east and west.
I have literally the entire g&lb and kera EGL and D_L on my side of the argument. Find me something that calls "sweet lolita in black" sweet lolita and you win.
I have literally the entire g&lb and kera EGL and D_L on my side of the argument
Yeah, no. That especially clashes with:
>Find me something that calls "sweet lolita in black" sweet lolita and you win.
Look at the sections for lolita in a bible or the tags in d_l. Not going to scan one of my bibles for this. You've already been given a lot of information to find this.
>Ama rori and gosu loli have always been two different color pallets
Traditionally, but sometimes they can overlap. Reread the post, they said gosu rori is an umbrella term. The bible and Kera would often call all lolita gosu rori.
I'm gonna have to agree. The distinction between sweet lolita in black and Gothic lolita didn't begin until the pastel puke print trend, when I guess all the colorful prints cold no longer be dubbed Gothic in good faith. But when everything was solid black sweet lolita was considered Gothic. Black x white lolita was considered Gothic too.
Honestly I don't know what magazines you're looking at if you still think this. Also the term "Gothic&lolita" would be used to describe Gothic lolita back in the day. I remember going though street snaps and seeing a lot of people use the term and being wierded out. I don't think the Japanese know what "&" stands for desu
I tried to add an image to further prove my point but it reached its max. Fuck.
Anon, I own a bunch of the earliest bibles (including the first) and yes they do often refer to the black x white outfits as 'gothic lolita' and many of the 'kuro' outfits as well. You don't have to agree with the descriptions but they are certainly there. I may try scanning some of the wording to post here if I get the chance. They also contradict themselves on occasion too, suggesting that it isn't really that strict.
Also according to Japanese literature, 'gothic and lolita' actually refers to a fusion of gothic with lolita not 'gothic' and 'lolita' as two completely separate styles (in the context of lolita fashion). There are a lot of Japanese articles out there that describe the style this way, with 'gosurori' actually being a shorthand for this aesthetic concept. Another reason why this definition is frequently overlooked is because the bibles also contained strait up punk and gothic non-lolita fashion, leading people to think that the title/definition meant 'we depict both gothic and lolita fashion' ie 'gothic and lolita'. I mean, it worked conceptually because of the different styles depicted in the magazine and they probably played on that aspect when they came up with the title, but it doesn’t nullify the largely accepted definition of 'gothic and lolita' = lolita + incorporating Gothic elements in Japanese literature. Hell, even the Japanese wiki article on gosurori defines it this way.
So gothic lolita is defined as lolita style with gothic elements and so what elements those are, and what brings a 'gothic atmosphere' to an outfit is somewhat open to interpretation and will vary depending on the individual. Of course there are limitations to this and I wouldn't go as far as adopting the 'it's whatever I say it is because it's my interepretation1111!!' but it's not as if people here are doing the equivalent of posting sweet lolita in pastel shades and saying 'check out this totes gothic lolita coord'!
can you provide link to said image, or create a thread not for sharing coords but discussing/debating the gothic lolita genre?
i make a lot of threads and 4chan limits you to 5 created threads at a time, or else i would. i would suggest if a new thread is made that the OP explain we don't want a 3rd gothic lolita image dump thread, we want to argue and prove points.
For short Gothic & Lolita is known as "Goth(ic) Lolita".
'From the fact that it (gothic lolita) is born from the "Goth" genre, it might be good to also enjoy a variety of Gothic without being bound by stereotypes.'
i do believe that a "true gothic" lolita dress has a distinct shape regardless of colors/motifs, but sweet and classic dresses can be used in gothic coords if the overall feel is gothic.
i also believe in hybrids, exceptions, borderline cases, and outliers. thus all the coords i have been posting to this and the last thread.
I can see a clear distinction anon, nothing about the right image has a 'gothic atmosphere' to me, particularly with use of a rather sweet and cutesy looking cardigan. However I don't think some people here understand or fully acknowledge the comments about 'grey areas' when it comes to gothic styles either. Do people honestly believe that everything simply 'is' or 'isn't' and if so, what criteria is being used to draw such clear distinctions? Either way, one's own interpretation will very likely differ to other lolita fashion follower's ideas of what 'is' and 'isn't'.
sorry my Japanese pretty much sucks, looking at it again I think this is closer to 'since the fact that styles such as 'wa gothic' (as in gothic wa lolita) have come into being, it might be good to also enjoy a variety of gothic without being bound by fixed ideas'.
Whilst I won't comment on my general opinion of wa lolita, the sentiment and intent here is what I think is significant, to not be too bound by 'fixed ideas/stereotypes' of what things should look like.
I know that Moitie calls Lolita EGL and Aristocrat EGA. I'm not a newfag at all. I'm referring to descriptions I've come across many times. I'm not a moron.
As for Aqua Princess, of course that's sweet lolita.
Time to get your sand out of your vag.
I think it's time for this arguement to be put to bed, as it's getting old, and just going round and round in circles. It's getting ridiculous. Why can't people just enjoy nice gothic outfits? Just look at Western goth. There are tons of different substyles, and all of them are goth. End of story.
that's how I originally translated it but then looked at it again and reinterpreted it. If you simply put '和ゴス' into google you get a ton of results for gothic wa lolita. Was probably over thinking it.
I can read a bit of Japanese but I'm a horrible translator, I often get confused about details such as this, particularly when the kanji can seem a bit ambiguous (to me at least).
Agreed. I can't believe some people can't tell the difference quite honestly. Maybe it's a noob newbie?
I've been in Lolita for 10 years, even back then it was rather clear imo.
Maybe newbies don't understand sweet coords come in black & black x white as well?
let’s not play the "I've been it it for X amount of time' game anon, some of the posters here clearly aren't new to the fashion or even close. From the gist of the thread, there weren't actually many people trying to claim that black automatically = gothic, so much as comment on the notion that apart from the unequivocally goth lolita that the like of Mana put out, there has always been a bit of a grey area in terms of what is and isn't. As already mentioned, 'gosurori' was short for 'gothic and lolita' which has been defined numerous times to actually mean 'lolita + gothic style'. Mana helped popularise the gothic lolita look and gave the style a more heavily gothic image, more in line with 80s era defined goth due to his hair styles,make-up etc, which is partly why he wanted to give his take on lolita style its own name 'elegant gothic lolita'.
When the British goth scene first started to become aware of gothic lolita fashion in the early 00s (2002 ish) many couldn't quite get their head around the fact that this 'gothic lolita' didn’t look quite like the goth they had come to recognise - where was the dark make up and big goth hair(?). Partly due to this, at some of the first lolita meets (which comprised of mostly people from the goth scene) in the UK there were a ton off people trying to imitate mana make-up and hair. It took a few months or so (in my experience) before people started to dress in a style more like as can be seen in the image of the Morbid Outlook lolita fashion article and came to recognise it as part of the umbrella of gothic lolita style.
The Morbid Outlook article, one of the first ever English language articles on lolita written in mid 2002 even acknowledged this aspect ' [lolita fashion] has expanded gradually to encompass many nuances in a Victorian Gothic look. Make no mistake – these women want nothing to do with our Western Gothic ways. They do not listen to our music and they are not Gothic in the American and European sense'.
tldr: mana's take on gothic lolita isn't the only gothic lolita style and 'gothic lolita' as a whole has always encompassed shades of grey. For this reason people will never cease to debate the subject.