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Underground Banks in China Will Start Using Monero in 2017

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Thread replies: 92
Thread images: 6

It's on google news: http://www.prunderground.com/gui-wallet-released-by-monero-as-underground-banks-in-china-wait-to-ditch-bitcoin-mid-january/0084114/
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>>1685988
>http://www.prunderground.com/gui-wallet-released-by-monero-as-underground-banks-in-china-wait-to-ditch-bitcoin-mid-january/0084114/

How can this be the next bitcoin when it has huge problems to scale compared to bitcoin?

It could have a niche use in the darknet but that's it.
>>
>>1685997
Could you elaborate on this anon?

I don't buy into the whole 'crypto is the future' meme anymore than I buy into preppers who say gold will be the only way forward in a decade, but money is money. If this can turn $10 into $800 I want a front row seat, you know?
>>
"China" invests in everything, same way MS backed almost every single crypto early on, but realized it was a waste and dropped it.

This doesn't mean anything.
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>>1686010
crypto IS the future, if by crypto you mean bitcoin

bitcoin can already scale with lightning network

im just talking about how monero is going to deal with it
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>>1686029
Well, that's great and all. If seashells were the future, I'd like to be stocking up on seashells. I don't know about you - but I care less about what a currency can or cannot 'do' and more about what it can do to keep my ass clothed in soft satin boxers and my bills paid.

Do you believe this Monero thing has a potential to grow the proposed 8,000%? What is realistic, if not that number? How does that stack up to your projection for bitcoin?
>>
monero is a cute idea but its completely impractical and will forever be niche. it will definitely grow but 99% of people have no use for that extreme level of privacy, and if in the future they do bitcoin will have significant improvements in confidential transactions/tumbling/mimblewhatever to make monero mostly unnecessary.
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>>1686040
if you dont care about utility or longevity and just want profits then you shouldnt be focusing on any one alt.

as far as monero goes you just missed the little pump from their gui wallet, i dont currently have an xmr position, it could retrace but looking at the charts it still looks very bubbily to me. no more integration into anything after those coupe of darknet markets added it too, one of which ran off with their depositors coins.
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>>1685997

> has huge problems to scale compared to bitcoin?

liar, it the complete opposite.
>>
>>1685997
Guys... are you still in the "omg people will never be able to buy coffee with crypto" phase?
For plebs and their daily needs, fiat, credit cards, paypal, bottle caps etc exist. Crypto is for the future rich and capable, who don't want 60% of their earnings/savings taken and redistributed to Tyrone and Muhammad. Also some niches like buying drugs online. Crypto doesnt need many transaction per second and people can just pay more fees if priority is a must.
>>
Scaling is such a non issue that it really immediately shows who understands crypto and who doesnt. Who the fuck cares about African farmers and Joe Blow buying socks online? I care about Chinese millionaires trying to move their ill gotten gains out of China. I care about my future earnings being stashed away safely outside of the grasp of socialist wankers and unthrustworthy banks.
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>>1686500
The thing is, we CAN scale to VISA levels with Lightning Network, and we will.

So we will have a strong core network and a second layer on top for super fast and cheap transactions. We will take over the world.

The problem is the impatient low IQ retards like Roger Ver and the rest on /r/btc which try to push their big blocks agenda which would only centralize the network since the nodes would be too big to run by people so they would start being run by corporations instead. These guys don't give a fuck about the crypto anarchist nature of Bitcoin, they just think turning it into a fancier Paypal for hipsters will make it go higher, the fucking morons. They are also responsible to throwing Segwit FUD. Those fuckers are the ones stagnating Bitcoin's progress if anything.
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>>1686271
kys
>>
>>1686029
>bitcoin can already scale with lightning network
>can already
ooohohohho boy...
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>>1686054
>but 99% of people have no use for that extreme level of privacy
that's not for you or me to decide... w will see how the governments and tax agencies react to btc and how easily can they trace the wallets back to you or not. if they can do it monero will overnight become relevant.
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>>1686513
ya all make it sound like this lightning network is not just a proposal but an actual real thing that works... the fuck? there is no such thing period.

if you have the lightning network i have dibs on hyperspace travel.
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>>1686519
The software is already working in testnet. It's a matter of time it's availible. Also it's a matter of time Segwit gets activated which will help scaling too, and we have a lot of time. Bitcoin is still extremely undervalued as the safe haven it already is.
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>>1686522
you say they will get implemented i say let's talk about it like it exists when they get implemented.
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>>1686513
>Lightning Network

its vaporware, each month theres a new magical solution to all problems in bitcoin none of which can be solved without hardfork that will never happen
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>>1686584
all i know is i have been hearing about this and other developments for years. and nothing ever happens. the devs are locked in a power struggle that paralyzes them and btc also.
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>>1686584
>muh vaporware
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BsaPl87HQA

https://asciinema.org/a/ergldrzd43j08klix08hf9yl3

>>1686590
The devs are doing the right thing, that is, being conservative and developing a strong core. There's no need for the average joe to use bitcoin at all right now, most people are too dumb to see an use yet. They will only realize when physical cash gets removed and they lose their financial privacy.

For now, there's no reason to rush things, everything must be calculated and everything must work perfectly. Bitcoin has never been compromised and has been working for 7+ years because of this.
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>>1686040
>soft satin boxers
i see you're a fancy man with fancy taste
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>>1686596

kys
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>>1686596
>vid shows a simple side-channel working
>nothing really about lightning network or segnet
wtf talk about unrelated titles
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>>1686513
Fuck off m8, with the tech we have now a quadruple in block size would have almost no impact on anything but would allow 4x the amount of transactions, people could use it for buying coffee and shit again. In a few years we could probably have 32mb blocks without being centralised and scale just fine. Lightning network doesn't exist yet and is not necessary in any case. It's just pushed by people who want to avoid block size increase for some reason.
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>>1686612
most of the bitcoin transactions are spam and bots, we could also deal with those and have a few years relief.
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>>1686612
Raising the blocksize makes running a node a way more difficult task. Anyone that doesn't have brain for bricks should know that having a decentralized network with nodes all over the world so Bitcoin has value as a censorship resistant tool has a priority over people sending coffee tier transactions on-chain for cheap.

Coffee tier transactions at a mainstream level will *never* work at an onchain level unless you want to centralize the network with massive blocksizes which would lead us to corporations running nodes instead of individuals. The fact that you cannot understand this basic game theory doesn't surprise me. You even claim LN is not necessary. Big blockers are so low IQ or just don't care about Bitcoin beyond turning it into a fancier Paypal.
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>>1686599
>>1686600
>butthurt because LN is not vaporware
At least you got nice dubs.
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>>1686054
Get a load of this cope.

It's literally better than BTC in every way, and it's not the only one. BTC is already outdated, just like fiat. Just a matter of time before everyone moves on to a superior crypto.
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>>1686636
you do realize that side-channels are an old idea and they have very serious practical limitations.

ie you tie your money up to a vendor or service provider for a period of time in exchange to instantaneous transactions.

lightning network was supposed to be the magical solution to this very serious issue. but nobody really demonstrated it how it could work in real life.

you post a vid which only shows a singular side-channel working supposedly but that's like where it all started.
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>>1686861
There is nothing to "solve" there. One can perform routing by having a full list of available channels, learned over flooding, and make your decisions from there. This is how, for example lightningd currently works. This is immediately more scalable than channel-less Bitcoin (as you're working with the set of all currently available channels instead of the history of all payments)-- though its easy to romanticize the much better things that are obviously possible.

>ie you tie your money up to a vendor or service provider for a period of time in exchange to instantaneous transactions.

not so-- because you can use payments you were otherwise going to make to form channels.

Payment channels are, in that they prevent every node from needing to see every transaction-- creating true scalability; and do so without substantially changing the properties of the system for users of the channels. Other things like Bitcoin digital cash overlays are also true scalability improvements, but come at a greater behavior cost to their users.
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>>1686884
>One can perform routing by having a full list of available channels, learned over flooding, and make your decisions from there.
exactly the part that was never demonstrated in a satisfactory manner. also real world examples would be nice, for example why would tesco help you spend your money at a competitor through the channel you opened with her. without their help you can't actually do it you can throw around big words like routing but you don't make that decision alone in a multisig channel.
>because you can use payments you were otherwise going to make to form channels.
that really doesn't make any sense, could you rephrase it or expand on that bit?
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>>1686744
no "cope" at all friend. you just seem to have missed out on the bitcoin explosion and are just looking for the "next big thing" to try and get rich from. if you actually looked at and understood the tech you would have realised that something as complicated as monero can never become the de-facto crypto if you want both ease of use and functional privacy.

for people who absolutely need privacy, monero is (one of) the ways to go, probably the best as of now, but theres no reason to use it alone, you just need to move money through it if you want to anonymise your bitcoin or other crypto. the only benefit monero gives you at rest is the inability to see account balances, which for most individuals isn't very compelling, or necessary.
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>>1687291
The only reason anyone would care about BTC at this point is because they're invested, like yourself- just like those who have high stakes in fiat who shit on crypto. Monero is just one of the potential cryptocurrencies that will take BTCs place.
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>>1687315
i own more than just bitcoin, although yes it is the majority of my holdings, mostly due to inertia in the market.

the point is that if bitcoin is doomed, then given the current landscape, or even the landscape of the next 12-18 months, there won't be a single winner, so going all in and expecting any one alt to "win" is highly unlikely, especially one of the most technically taxing ones like monero.

im not "shitting" on monero, i've done a hell of a lot of research on it, it's not badly designed, although it has some ugly early history, it just can't be used like bitcoin. and most other coins are today, with the same convenience and ease of use (especially for non-technical users), if you also expect to have any level of privacy at all, which is its only differentiator.

its a really, really hard sell for pretty much anyone but the most privacy minded individuals, and as soon as you want to use a web or mobile wallet, you just throw away any benefit of using monero.

and you could say people only care about monero because they own it too, its not the only privacy oriented coin, and there could just as easily be another better monero any time now that slowly but surely replaces it. the market isn't kind to altcoins.
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>>1687340
>defending BTC the same way people defend fiat

It's just too hypocritical for my taste.

But again, BTC is outdated, it doesn't really matter which cryptocurrency replaces BTC, but BTC will be phased out before crypto makes a dent in fiat, that's guaranteed.
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>>1687353
>guaranteed
yeah, no, you just seem to be hung up on buzzwords and marketing/shilling coming from people who already own more monero/other altcoin than you.

just do your own research if you honestly believe that monero is a suitable replacement. the technology that keeps it cryptographically safe is the same technology that impedes it's casual use, this isn't an opinion, it needs to be this way or its just another bitcoin clone. i don't care enough about you to try and explain anymore, if you wish to gamble go ahead, but technical understanding and research is more important than you think. it's not all blind speculation.
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>>1687366
It's guaranteed, just like it's guaranteed for fiat to go the way of the dodo, so too will BTC.
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Trying to understand. I have a few bitcoins and get how the blockchain works.
What in particular makes bitcoin outdated?
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A lack of fungibility is bitcoins main problem
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>>1685997
yeah you got this backwards my man. monero is superior to bitcoin in this regard, and every regard other than branding, name recognition, and network effect.
>>
so, is monero the most untraceable currency?

how does that work?
can someone tl;dr and babytalk it to me?
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>>1687491
monero is not untraceable at all, from the blockchain it is very hard to backtrace transactions ass they are bundled up, but if someone is monitoring the transactions as they get propagated and logs them monero offers the same level of anonymity as bitcoin.
>>
fake news lmao
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Buy monero or regret missing out YET AGAIN
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>>1687462
wich is alreay fixed with future updates
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>>1687964
>future updates
just add them to the infinitely long list of things that never happened
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>>1687491
Yeah.

http://weuse.cash/2016/06/09/btc-xmr-zcash/

This is a good article explaining the problems of Bitcoin and why it's already outdated. Laughably, even cash has more anonymity than Bitcoin and defenders of Bitcoin like to pretend that people using it aren't going to care about being anonymous only after everyone realized how easily it's tracked.
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>>1688005
cash has always been more anonymous and always will be other than a solid blank block of gold
bitcoin is the most anonymous way of digital wealth transfer
you cant send physical cash over an internet connection unless you do it through a bank
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>>1685988
https://discord.gg/jtBmHwJ


https://discord.gg/jtBmHwJ


https://discord.gg/jtBmHwJ
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>>1688109
You didn't read the article, but no, bitcoin is not the most anonymous, it isn't even anonymous.
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>>1688258
it's psuedo anonymous
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>>1686634
This. Without a conservative blocksize, all of your fancy anonymous tech is useless since if monero ever goes mainstream, the nodes would be run by centralized corporations before you even get near those numbers.

Bitcoin + LN = way better.
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>>1688005
this is a good article, thanks for this.
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>>1688399
sorry for being a noob, but tl;dr of LN?
is it, as the name suggests, just extremely fast and thus makes bitcoin great again?
is there anything more to it?
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>>1688005
just be aware that that website is from a known monero shill, so do your own research as well.
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>>1688528
Well look at it this way, you could believe BTC shills that are trying to tell you outdated technology is what you should invest in with flawed logic and lies, or you could fact check the article from the Monero shills and realize that it's right. The obvious choice is clear when you remove the bias from both sides.
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>>1688532

I have just opened a 2004 barolo in yours and the OP homage
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>>1688476
1/2

LN allows for trustless off-chain transactions.

Good:
1. Infinite scaling
2. Instant confirmations

Bad:
1. Requires centralized "hubs" to work effectively
2. Requires locking bitcoin in payment channels for periods of time

LN utilizes the idea of "payment channels". Suppose the blockchain is at max capacity and fees are high but I employ you and wish to pay you 1 btc/day for 30 days. Instead of wasting money on fees each day we do the following:

1. We create a 2/2 multi-sig address
2. I create a tx sending 30 coins from this multi-sig to me valid only after 30 days
3. You sign it and give this back to me (1/2 signatures)
4. Now I send 30 btc to the multi-sig address

Notice that after 30 days I can add my signature to the tx and get all my btc back, but only after 30 days. Until then, neither of us can access the btc. As you work for me I will create an updated tx which is valid immediately.

For example after the first day:

1. I create and sign a tx sending 29 btc from the multi-sig to me, 1 to you, valid immediately
2. I give this to you as payment

This tx is as good as 1 btc. You can instantly add your signature, broadcast it and claim 1 btc. But you don't because we're trying to save on fees. So you keep it and the next day I send you an ever better tx sending you 2 btc (me 28) then 3 btc (me 27) etc. Before the 30 days is up you take the best tx you broadcast your best tx and get paid. If things go smoothly I was able to pay you 30 btc, 1 at a time, but only paid fees for 2 tx. This could've been 60 total transactions or 100 or 1,000,000.
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>>1688670
2/2

There are drawbacks. First, if you fail to redeem your tx before the 30 days is up I can redeem the full 30 to myself and you get nothing. Second, you can try to screw me. If you vanish after I send the 30 btc to the multi-sig address I will have to wait a full 30 days to get my money back out. If you quit on good terms I'd simply ask you to sign a tx sending me 30, you 0, valid immediately and we'd be on our way. But if you're malicious you can lock me out and make me wait.

LN takes this concept and leverages it into large "hubs" which maintain open payment channels (both ways) with customers. If me and you are on the same "hub" we can exchange btc using the open payment channels instead of broadcasting each time to the blockchain. The "hub" acts as an intermediary but everything is trustless. The "hub" operator would be able to "freeze" me out of my coins (as in the example above) and I would be able to do the same to the operator. But neither one of us can ever take each other's money. Here, the operator can be a complete stranger. I don't need to know or trust this person at all. As long as there is an economic incentive to run the "hub" (very small fees or a "subscription") market forces would permit these "hubs" to exist.
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>>1688532
/thread
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>>1688676
you call it hubs but really they would be banks and card companies in a realistic scenario.
>>
everyone talking about how monero is capable of any kind of serious tx workload should really take the time to do some research.

if you don't know how the cryptography works you might be fooled into thinking just because it has faster block times it has more capacity, but it is seriously going to be pushing up against moores law long long before it has any kind of meaningful capacity.

remember having 10 or even 100 times the capacity of bitcoin means nothing at all. you simply cannot store every transaction on a blockchain forever and expect it to work in this universe at any meaningful capacity.
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>>1688792

you are talking like no one can actually research and know Monero has no block limit and can scale to the limit of the hardware in the nodes relying the transaction, you should stop you are trying too hard and its getting pathetic
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>>1688834
what does block size have to do with anything? slap a 1-2GB block size on bitcoin or any altcoin and watch the network choke. and it can't sale to the hardware if you intend to actually use it, you still have to check each and every output yourself.

instead of churning out marketing look at the code, the architecture. this thing has to run on your own computer after all. you're dreaming if you think this can run at a large enough scale to matter.
>>
>>1688792
>>1688840
I'll just quote you here

>yeah, no, you just seem to be hung up on buzzwords and marketing/shilling
>>
>>1688979
right, im talking about the technicals of how the cryptography works, encouraging you to take a look for yourself and learn something, anything about how it works. after all its a privacy focused coin, and you gain no privacy from it if you use it incorrectly, so its important to understand how it stops the baddies from watching you buy your xanax.

monero implements cryptonote which uses ring signatures. the consequence of this means if you want to use monero, you have to check every single transaction to see if it's "addressed" to your public key, and this isn't a cheap operation like in bitcoin, because you have to cryptographically confirm this instead of simply checking the PKH, or address, like in bitcoin, ethereum, etc.

if you haven't already guessed this puts a significant dampener on the number of transactions per second for end users, and you can forget about having a mobile wallet that brings you any of the privacy benefits that makes monero monero.

again, none of this is hidden information, all of this is out there in the white papers and code on github, although its not the most readable code given the weird history of bytecoin.

if you're investing any significant amount of money in these coins (i.e. 5 figures at least), then you owe it to yourself to know about these things, at least for the long term, 2-3 years. short term who knows what the fuck monero will do, but that's completely void of anything but hype and speculation.
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>>1689044
theres no need to be salty, you can still buy in.
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>>1689056
i had just under 10,000 from early '15 from when i first seriously looked into it, sold most of it during the bubble, obviously, still have a few hundred in polo, but i'm not looking to buy more until this bubble has run its course.

maybe thats why im under no disillusion about it, its already served its purpose to me, and im not bagholding anything im not happy about. apart from ethereum classic, fucked up the exit on that one.
>>
All anon coins at Poloniex are not anon. If you trade their Poloniex has a detailed record of all your activity. HOODWINKED you were.
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>>1689078
no one's seriously expecting privacy trading at polo. anything shady going on in monero just gets converted to bitcoin via something like shapeshift before being sold for $
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>>1689086
Ahh yes shapeshift....the anon trading platform that trades on other exchanges for you.

Can't wait to see if they end up having the most detailed records of all.
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>>1689092
they'll have an opaque monero transaction coming in, and a unused bitcoin address as output, and a tor ip address record. you can even shuffle those bitcoins around further if you want. they really have nothing if you're not an idiot about it.
>>
>>1689078
>buy monero with polo account
>send to monero wallet running on tor
>send it in separate chunks at separate times to a new second polo account only accessed with tor

Please do tell how any shitcoin held on the second account can ever be traced back to me. I'm really curious.
>>
Right all that stuff is vaporware until proven otherwise.
>>
>>1688771
Probably. While the software will be open-source, high capital requirements will make competition difficult. LN will never actually have access to your coins but heavy regulation and tracking could discourage its use.

I don't think LN is some magic bullet. On-chain scaling is a must for bitcoin. But it's an interesting idea and one that could allow bitcoin to be used for "everyday" purchases and possibly re-introduce some of the modern comforts traditional banking offers.

If the underlying currency is bitcoin and not government funny-money it's still an improvement.
>>
>>1688771
Wrong. You can create p2p channels, open them then close them when you are done.
Also segwit will make it way better, that's why banks are paying shills to attack segwit adoption.

Learn more here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l235ydAx5oQ
>>
>>1690466
Opening and then closing a payment channel requires 2 transactions, they're worthless for 1-time use. You can't find paths between 2 random users without large "hubs" in between.
>>
>and possibly re-introduce some of the modern comforts traditional banking offers.
exactly. i dare say it could do that. but only if you don't have to be part off more than one network, and preferably if the provider you connect to can also throw you a line of credit (so you don't actually have to tie up any funds in a channel) same as with cc-s.

>>1690466
>Wrong. You can create p2p channels, open them then close them when you are done.
your ass is wrong.
what you can do in theory and what people will do is two different things. for example you could ignore banks like they don't even exist and use hard cash only. loan to each other in a p2p offline system and throw your money together on local infrastructural developments and stuff...

yet people have bank accounts. pretty much almost everyone. and we use credit cards and wire transfers and stuff like that. people like order and big service providers and centralized structures that are actually understandable to their little minds.

if lightning network becomes a thing it will only be because an entity either takes up the banks traditional role or banks open to btc and do it themselves doesn't really makes a difference.
>>
>>1686500
>Crypto is for the future rich and capable, who don't want 60% of their earnings/savings taken and redistributed to Tyrone and Muhammad
You know it's taxable, right?

>but the IRS doesn't know you have it!
You think they never catch people who get paid in cash? If you start making big purchases they'll know you've got money, and if you aren't paying taxes on that money they'll come after you.
>>
>>1690544
also people forget something crucial and fundamental: settling disagreements over purchases.

if you can just buy directly from anyone on the world without anyone else taking a cut you have a completely decentralized and "trustless" system, you will never ever get your money back if pajeet or ling-dong scams you and you receive a jar of shit instead of an iphone. or maybe you get an iphone but it's an earlier model and the display is faulty. or whatever.

most people would have no idea what to do, but if banks are involved, you just call your bank and tell them you were screwed and want a refund and they will settle the issue with the vendors bank. and somebody gets a lawsuit and you don't have to deal with any of that.
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>>1690544
>people like order and big service providers and centralized structures that are actually understandable to their little minds.

People like to avoid taxes by getting paid in cash and they like to move money overseas when goverment fucks their shit up.

Case in point, China. As housing bubble pops, commodity bubble pops, and credit-fueled growth bubble pops... there is only one place left for Chinese trend-followers to flee to - Bitcoin. This alone is potential trillions of dollars moving within the ecosystem, imagine when the inevitable fate of all fiat cuckrrencies meet their expiration date.
>>
>>1690589
right, thats where the cash and gold analogy people keep liking to use comes in. the irreversible nature is necessary for the system to be trustless but i certianly wouldnt use it to pay untrustworthy people, which is why escrow is so popular.

also dat xmr pump, thinking of unloading the rest of mine soon.
>>
>xmr pump
what the actual fuck, it's too late to get in is it ?
>>
>>1691978
I like your analysis of monero. You seemed to word all of my concerns better than I could.

What do you think might be the next bitcoin that's asic resistant. I have a feeling as bitcoin gets big people are going to be pissed there are limited options in buying asics for mining and will turn to GPU coins because they are more distributed. If you have another opinion on the asic to gpu debate please share it.
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>>1692165

China still isn't in, only rumors, if XMR gets into a Chinese exchange it may be too late for a while
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>>1691209
>using different timeframes
>>
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>>1687462
can anyone explain how fungibility is an issue? how can bitcoins differ?
>>
>>1692180
Shit dude, you almost made me buy more
>>
>>1693515
Since bitcoin's blockchain is transparent ,coins can be traced and become tainted if handled by DNM or niggers.
>>
>>1689078
>>1689772

Won't even have to spread it out temporally after RingCT hits.
>>
>>1692175
if bitcoin is going to be replaced by something, (which i dont believe will happen without there being at least several very high almost equal marketcap coins, i.e. no more 80%+ share) it wont be a miner decision. miners really dont care about what they mine, and the economy never follows miners, its always the other way around. they want profitability which means they need an economy to dump their coins into.

so i dont think asic resistance is what you should be focusing on. as far as china is concerned all that matters to them is cheap electciricy. zcash has an interesting mining algorithm which has high memory requirements but if youre sitting in a country with incredibly cheap electricity its still more profitable for you to buy a few hundred gpus than it is for an individual. this obviously pushes difficulty up and you're still left in a position where individuals who would only mine on a single/double gpu are pushed out of profitability relatively early. by removing ascis all youre doing is increasing the barrier to entry but big players will still make bank.
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