>>734431015 i realy started feeling sad about pigs when i heard about pigs being happy with stuff like swimming at an island meaning when they get killed in thousands on daily, those things feel and think just like you do. it´s horrible
>>734431015 I was vegan for a year, but uni got me so stressed I took the easy way out and ate meat again. Im vego now.
My question though, why do we need to care about ethics, morality, empathy.. that sort of thing. Morally, yes its "bad" to make sentient beings suffer, but what makes something bad or good? How do you know these things are real concepts that should be upheld? How do you know everything isnt just a random series of events and it doesnt matter what happens or who feels what?
Another thing I wonder about is where the line is drawn. We accidentally step on ants all day but nobody cares. We dont know how sentient and ant is. Why does it matter "how" intelligent something is if it can still suffer?
How is a plant suffering different from an animal? Just because of a brain? Brains developed from simple life. When does it become classed as non-eatable?
Did you know mushrooms are closer to being classed as animals than they are plants?
>>734431015 Reminder that there is literally no reasonable justification for being a great gaping pussy. Asserting your position at the top of the food chain is the only ethically acceptable lifestyle.
Human teeth are made for meat and vegitation. Meaning our bodies were designed to do so. A living thing is born and adapted to sustain itself on what it's body needs. Thusly eating meat is part of being human.
>>734432984 I feel. Just hypothetically speaking, if it was cost effective, could you see yourself eating small amounts of (lab grown) meat? I'm just curious of your veganism stems from health reasons and/or ethical reasons. Both are valid, imo
>>734433261 not your guy you're responding to, but I would think it is the excess of meat that lends itself to health issues. We eat meat in such excess in the modern age, don't you think that's really what it boils down to, rather than meat just being bad. "Too much of a good thing" and all
It's hard to feel bad for eating animals when you were raised on a farm where your grandparents used to slaughter cows and chickens regularly. When I was little I would ask my grandma if I can have chicken for dinner and she would be like "well then go catch one and bring it to me". She would proceed to cut its head off with a kitchen knife and I used to play with the head while she prepared the chicken. Eating animals and animal products is totally normal to me and I can't seem to get myself to care enough that it hurts them. Like Louis CK said, I know that it's wrong but I don't care that it's wrong.
Because we use the incredibly calorie-efficient, metabolic process called "cooking shit."
Come on mate, if vegetarians were really more healthy then Olympic athletes wouldn't eat meat, strongmen wouldn't eat meat (and fuckloads of steroids), marathoners (some are vegan but most I know, including me aren't) wouldn't eat meat.
If you're super healthy plan was actually super healthy it would be used to get an edge at the highest level of competition. Yes, most anons shouldn't eat the whole chicken, but a shitty vegetarian would be tired from anaemia, lack vital nutrients, and have crazy blood sugar.
>>734431015 Your ethics are your own construct. What, do you really think anyone is going to remember you being vegan after you die? They might remember the pretentiousness, but you certainly aren't going to go down as some kind of hero to cows.
This is most likely b8, but just in case it isn't. Ethics are a bs thing made by the human mind for justifying the fact that they are massive pussies, besides, veganism isn't natural for a predator type species.
>>734431015 >Animals eating other animals in wild is okay >Choosing not to eat animals because you're human >Implying you're above your animal nature because you have consciousness Why don't you rise completely above the nature and commit a pointless suicide?
If humans never learned to cook and eat meat we'd all still be cavemen. Cooking food and eating meat have the body the opportunity to revolve beyond needing a complex energy draining digestive system and focus more on brain growth.
I love living in North America, I can get fresh bison anytime I want. Bison is the best meat out there by far, the idiots that settled murica would only take the pelts and leave meat behind to rot...fucking retards.
>>734431015 Meat is what made us advance into modern humans and grow big powerful brains! And evolve into what we are today. You want to become a cow? Sheep? Goat? You want to become cattle and deevolve and let someone or something else become number 1? Fine, then youmshould be okay with getting slaughtered and eaten like a cow too, we will have vegan farms where we fatten you up and shove a carrot or apple i youre ass and butcher, coom and eat you.
>>734438511 Exactly, entire species would go extinct because they are human created by selective breeding and dont have a place in nature to excist, the planet would be full of starving and dead rotting animals and the whole planet would stink!
>>734431015 While I agree with you, keep in mind that there is no such thing as 'ethical consumption' under capitalism. Rather, you have varying degrees of reprehensible and/or morally ambiguous consumption and behavior.
>>734438640 Not to mention all of the farmers that make their living growing food for and raising these animals. Guess vegans don't care about them or the economy, we'll all survive off of free love and good karma from not killing animals.
>>734431015 ~60% of farmed plants by mass is inedible to humans but edible to food livestock eating animals reduces land area needed to sustain a human population significantly
there are ~1 billion cattle born every year almost all of these would not be born if cattle were not used for food as it is better to be alive under any circumstance than to never have been born, it is better to eat cattle than to not
>>734431617 >Plants aren't sentient and they don't feel pain they are self aware enough to recognize if they are damaged trees produce resin when they get damaged grass when cut down produces chemicals to signal their damage There are plants that litterally bleed and produce a sound like screaming when harmed also, there are plants that eat meat (e.g. pitcher plants)
at what sentient level do you consider something "sentient enough to not eat"? There are bugs & worms, even fish, which are less sentient than plants. Can you eat them?
taking damage e.g. being cut, prodoces a chemical reaction in every organism and is, in a way, enough to define something as sentient (aware of itself and its situation). Is that enough to not eat it?
Also, there are species who only exist because we breed them to eat. If we would stop breeding them, they would go exstinct. Is genocide of multiple species acceptable in veganism?
Veganism is a healthy lifestyle but in no way morally better than eating meat because of its flawed viewpoints of "living beings"
I don't think you realize that not every last inch of field is used exclusively for animal feed crop, it's actually a very small % of farm field. But go ahead and pretend like you know what you're talking about.
If you want to be a vegetarian or a vegan because you just want to be a vegetarian or a vegan or because you just like the food then I can respect that, but if you're a vegetarian or a vegan because "animals feel pain and their lives are just as important as ours," fuck off.
>>734431015 I agree, but I don't really care though. I look forward to a world with synthetic flesh you can grow like a plant, but until then imma choke on dat bacon.
BTW what do vegans propose should be done to species that have become dependent on humans and domestication by centuries of selective breeding? I think Singer proposes something like letting them go extinct, which seemed pretty brutal to me. Or at least hearing it from him.
>>734439703 people aren't obligated to accomodate your voluntary dietary restrictions. not even your parents. make/bring your own food but don't be an arrogant little snot about it. you can do your own thing without having to lord over everyone else for it.
Nah, Empathy isn't what drives most people to be vegan, it's still a self-gain thing. "I feel good" or "I'm allergic" or "I'm a giant pussy moralfag" Whichever, even if the world changed, it'd be a practicality thing, not a moral/empathy thing.
>>734431015 I dated a Vegan and lived with her for a while. She turned out to be nuts so in the end I'd buy bacon, pork chops, ground beef, etc. and fry it up in her "seasoned meat free pans". She went apeshit, it was hysterical
>>734439952 I wasn't saying it is, I was saying that land used for crops to feed people is more efficient then using the same crops to feed animals, and subsequently humans. Just keep avoiding my point and resorting to ad hominem, it's obvious you have nothing worthwhile to contribute
>>734439619 Ultimately, veganism is an aim. As your image demonstrates, it is essentially impossible to live without animal products.
By being vegan I'm not saying "I never cause animal suffering" because obviously I do. I drive a car. I wear leather belts. What I'm doing is trying to reduce animal suffering as much as I personally can at the moment.
I know other vegans who get special belts instead. I know others who go back to being vegetarian when on holiday in countries where it's culturally too difficult to be vegan at the moment.
That's all fine because veganism isn't a hard and fast rule. It is an aim which each vegan sticks to as best we can? I don't see any denial in that really.
>>734440214 that's natural and sustainable. How we grow meat is not at all and is destroying our planet. If you want to hunt an animal that is fine, natural. I'm not against eating meat, i'm against how it's made.
The medical community approves of Veganism. It leads to deficiencies that turn into disease, which means more revenue for doctors and hospitals. By all means, go vegan. It's not like we need your money, but if you're all that stupid and in a hurry to get sick and you are dumb enough to ignore evolution, sure, we'll take your money.
>>734440214 Logic is OK, don't be a retard. Animals have no will to do or don't do something. People do and therefore are faced with ethical choices like that.
Here's a tougher legitimate question though:
How is it acceptable to let animals eat each other if we can't eat them because they can suffer? I mean, you wouldn't sit idly while a woman was getting raped - it is your duty to act and stop ethically unacceptable acts. So why do we let animals eat other animals?
>>734431015 ok i have a question, Vegans won't eat meat so they eat plants but can a vegan eat a venus fly-trap which itself eats meat??? And plants get nutrients from decayed animals. I mean if even plants eat meat why is it wrong for us to?
>>734440541 ok but you carnt garentee that they would suvive or that it wouldnt mess you the food chain if we l;eft cows as they are now they would still breed and it would lead to there been more cows we would activly have to kill some to reduce the inital numbers
>>734440434 "ignore evolution" is just the naturalistic fallacy.
With regards health, the best paper I've seen on this is at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.full Vegans tend to be healthier in many important ways, such as with diabetes, heart disease, and obesity. We tend to be worse in one important way which is bone density, but the deficiencies which cause this can be easily made up for with a supplement.
>>734440570 I don't really think trying to be "natural" makes much sense or is achievable? Right now I'm wearing clothes that were somehow made from cotton and plastic by a machine. My dinner included frozen mince from a packet, and if I ate meat it would have been frozen beef mince from a packet. There's nothing "natural" about any of this.
If you want to talk about health, see above, but what we consider "natural" really has no bearing on health.
>>734431015 We quit eating chickens goats sheep cows fish deer boars, do you realize how many of those fuckers are just going to disappear? If we aren't eating chicken and eggs or cow's milk cheese there is literally no reason for them to exist. Typical libtard thinking. Think, stupid. We started producing more bison so we can eat the fuckers. Otherwise they a zoo exhibit and circus sideshow.
NUTRITION When you look at lifespans of people around the world, it's pretty consistent that those countries/cultures with the reputation for being vegan, or eating very small quantities of meats (often using them as flavoring agents rather than main courses), live longer. It's also pretty consistent that many of them don't as high of quality control pickiness, so products like rice are more likely to have a higher insect count than say the States or EU. If your talking health, lesson is eat mostly plant based with a very small quantity of meat (like <= 10% the States/EU typical diet). If you are going to eat animal, your best source health wise is insects. Vegan isn't perfect, but it's a lot closer to perfect than the diets of many. And yes, insects and insect byproducts are not vegan, I'm not promoting that. I'm promoting near-veganism (vegetarian doesn't count, it's the wrong type of animal protein). It's a myth that you need animal for protein. Protein is in everything, and a lot of people get far too much of it. But there's other reasons of nutritional balance that make small quantities of animal beneficial. I don't eat insects myself, just aware they are more beneficial than what I do eat. Maybe some day.
ETHICS If you are vegan for ethics, and don't mind a slight compromise in nutrition, it's fine. Your still way ahead of heavy meat eaters for nutrition. But that's only if not eating animals matches your ethical standards. Ethics and morality are personally and culturally subjective. There's a lot of "if"s and "but"s that can muddle the water here.
PLEASURE If you eat for pleasure, than nothing else is relative, eat all the animal you want.
FUTURE We will be going in a more plant and insect based direction at humanities current growth rate anyways. So it will somewhat work itself out anyways.
>>734440658 Haha, fair enough. Yeah I would eat a venus fly trap personally? Because in eating the venus fly trap I'm not harming anything, causing any suffering, etc. Another common one is would a vegan eat roadkill? Personally, no, because that is a disgusting idea, but morally I'd have no problem with that at all.
>>734440719 Good point. If there was like a switch that was flipped and everyone was vegan and all the cows that are currently there just sort of roamed wildly, that would be pretty dangerous? Of course, that's not really realistic. I think what's more likely is as more and more people turn vegan, restaurants etc. order less and less meat, and so slaughterhouses gradually scale down their operations. I can't see any problem for the environment with that as the cows are so detached from everything else, they're not really part of any ecosystem to speak of.
>>734441044 Yeah, I'd say so. Other vegans might give a different answer but I can't see much problem with that? To be honest, I can't see much problem if you have chickens and they lay an egg and you find the egg and fry that shit up.
The issue is that that's not the history of the eggs/milk/steaks at the supermarket.
>>734441288 The majority of such studies aren't actually what's reported. I've seen a load of times when a newspaper has put out a story like "plants have music preferences say scientists" and it turns out the paper actually just used "do plants have music preferences?" in order to demonstrate a flaw or nuance in a statistical model, and they used that question specifically because of course plants don't have fucking music preferences.
That said, you've put "respond to stimuli" which plants do. They deliberately curve towards the sun for instance. This isn't feeling pain or thinking thoughts or anything though, as they don't have a nervous system.
>>734441342 Yeah. That's the ultimate crux. That said, I only think dairy/eggs/honey and such can be done humanely. If you're outright killing an animal for food, I wouldn't personally ever condone that.
you know who wasnt a vegan? Darth Plagueis the Wise;: Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. He became so powerful... the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Ironic, he could save others from death, but not himself.
>>734440371 The trouble is, many vegans I myself meet DO treat it like a hard and fast rule. I almost never meet vegans who at least produce some form of rationality and don't act like a last-gen SJW, but I know they are out there, like yourself. Which is why I said "top five", to be generous.
>>734442073 mehhhh. I'd say the line is drawn at suffering.
This is now going down a path of biology, which I always feel is intended to be more of a trick than a genuine exploration? I haven't studied biology since A-level. If you have and you've looked into it and you reckon it's impossible for octopus to feel pain or something, and you're going to be vegan and not eat pork and not eat steaks and eat our revolting vegan cheese but still eat octopus... then great? I personally am going to err on the side of stuff I know doesn't cause suffering. I've found it to be doable and healthy, so don't really need to look into said biology in the hopes of finding suffering-loopholes I can sneak meat onto plate through.
>>734442116 I've never seen anyone "impose" anything. People encourage others round to their way of thinking all the time. That's just what humans do.
Suck it OP. You're no more "ethical" then us carnivores. Plants do have their own sentience and feel just like anything else. Just because they don't have a recognizable brain does not mean that they do not feel pain or sense danger or feel fear.
But hay i guess I should expect anything less from a bigoted spiciest like you OP!
Does anybody on this baord actually think that their is somebody on 4chan who honestly believes this? You guys are the type of people who honestly believe "if you don't reply to this post your mother will die"
>>734442941 The fact that you keep denying you're mad, when you know the only real winning move is not to play. If you're so high and mighty, if I'm really not worthy of your time, then stop replying. You can easily win this right now if you want.
>By being vegan I'm not saying "I never cause animal suffering" because obviously I do. I drive a car. I wear leather belts. What I'm doing is trying to reduce animal suffering as much as I personally can at the moment.
The cheese in particular took me ages to find one that didn't make me wanna throw up.
Much much easier is the milk and the mince? If you've not tried them yet I'd definitely say give soya milk or meat-free mince a shot.
After that the chicken substitutes are probably the next nicest.
>>734443995 >I get others to argue for me because I can't myself
>>734444056 Yeah I get that. To be honest though a load of people miss having something similar, at least that you can think is similar. So if I'm making a curry I don't want to put just vegetables in it? I want to put something else, like chicken pieces.
There's also the thing of loads of vegan food being just salads and shit, and sometimes I just want a burger.
>>734444224 >why see above really? Lots of vegans miss the taste and versatility of certain foods, or we're used to cooking with them and it's weird to go without, so we get this.
there is no reasonable way to eat takeout and fastfood only and still be a vegan being a vegan requires knowing how to cook and if i learn how to cook other people will want me to cook for them therfor i can never be a vegan and continue to live in a way that suits me
>>734444866 lol. Being drunk and vegan is similar. All your friends are there getting chicken nuggets from a 24-hour macdonalds and you have to just stand there pretending you want a deli salad at 3am.
>>734445080 If meat makes you smarter, how come meat eaters always tell the same shit jokes that Maddox told in the 90s?
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