I'm thinking about becoming a vegetarian. I like to eat

Bumping for justice.

>I love animals
Why?
>know that the animals we eat don't want to die
Do you think the plants we eat want to die?

>>734430430
I have thought about that. What makes round celled life more valuable? I think it's that they are aware of their life and fight to keep it. Where things like fruit trees grow fruit specifically to be eaten and spread their seeds. It makes more sense to me.

I don't know why I love animals. Always have. My dog is my best friend. Sad I know.

>>734430533
>I think it's that they are aware of their life and fight to keep it
So plants that send out distress signals to other plants should not be eaten?
>Where things like fruit trees grow fruit specifically to be eaten and spread their seeds.
So you are only going to eat things like fruit, making sure to plant the seeds after you are done?
>I don't know why I love animals
Think about it.

>>734430430
I don't think plants want anything. They have no brain. Can they possibly even know that they exist?

But why do they grow at all I wonder.

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>>734429866

You mentioned eating nuts. Every vegetarian I've ever met is fucking kookoo crazy. Enjoy your cannibalism while I munch on this tasty burger.

>>734430694
But those "signals" aren't something that the plant sends out because it wants to. It's just built in to the plant. Like we don't tell out heart to beat I suppose.

I completely get what you're saying and agree though. I've certainly given it a lot of though. Life consumes life, it has to. But eating plants seems to me to be less cruel. They aren't conscious beings. They aren't aware.

As far as we know anyway.

>>734430702
>But why do they grow at all I wonder
It's almost like life predates thought and brains aren't intrinsically meaningful or something.

>>734430766
I've noticed this as well. Most vegetarians are weird as fuck. I would still be eating things like eggs and cheese. I should be getting all the nutrients I need to live. Hopefully not go crazy as well.

I love burgers though. Maybe those bean burgers aren't too bad?

I certainly wouldn't be one of those people that judge omnivores either, because this hardly even makes sense to me.

>>734430865
>But those "signals" aren't something that the plant sends out because it wants to. It's just built in to the plant.
Are the bleatings of a goat something that it sends out because it wants to, or is it a built in evolutionary response?
> They aren't conscious beings. They aren't aware.
So? Why does that matter?

>>734431017
Because eating a conscious, self aware being is what is weighing on my conscious. A plant never knows that it even exists or stops existing.

>>734431163
>Because eating a conscious, self aware being is what is weighing on my conscious.
Why though? That's the question. Why do you think that matters?
>A plant never knows that it even exists or stops existing.
So? It does exist, doesn't it?

>>734430910
True, brains aren't required for base life, but they are required for self-awareness and appreciation of life. That's what makes me want to try to do this. Taking life from something that knows the value of it doesn't set well with me. Even though I know that it's the natural order.

>>734429866
>know that the animals we eat don't wan't to die
You assume too much.

https://youtu.be/ueqDkY3aNAY

>>734431016
>I would still be eating things like eggs and cheese
Animals are still killed during production of dairy and eggs, so that wouldn't really be any better than eating meat.

>>734431285
No, that's a fair assumption. Animals have a desire to live, and if you think otherwise, provide evidence

>>734431279
I think what it boils down to is that animals like life. They play and eat and have emotions. They want to live. Plants don't care or even know. If I could just exist without eating I probably would, but eating plants seems like the better option for me. They don't care, and often times even rely on being eaten to spread their seeds via other animals shit.

>>734431280
>Taking life from something that knows the value of it doesn't set well with me
The question still remains: why?

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https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI

Here's a short video on the dairy industry. If you consume dairy, you should definitely watch this.

>>734431354
>hour long video
ain't nobody got time for that

The only vegan argument that isn't weak is the environmental one, which makes eating meat wrong in the same way that driving a car for fun is wrong.

>>734431285
Try to kill one, it will run away.

>>734431375
I don't suppose it's much better, but at least they live... Maybe free range chicken eggs? Pay the extra $3. I really don't know...

>>734431555
fuck i love cheese, and i would torture a million baby cows to eat it along with steak

>>734431479
Because it makes me sad. They want to live and I want them to live. I don't know why I feel this way. When I am around animals, even chickens and cows, I can see that they would rather not die.

The same reason I wouldn't kill a person. People are the same. They just want to live.

>>734431555
She says it herself: "nobody gives a shit"

There's nothing morally wrong going on in that video.

>>734431645
Nope. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YHEALySfbrg
If it bothers you so much you can really only ignore it and keep eating meat or become a whiny faggot numale vegan.

>>734431555
That does seem cruel. Being a vegetarian seems like it will be hard enough. I need milk and eggs... Maybe there are humane options available.

>>734431770
>Because it makes me sad.
That's not a very good reason.
>The same reason I wouldn't kill a person
Except we can, you know, come up with rational reasons why people going around killing each other would be a problem. Society would collapse. We don't base morality on what makes us sad.

>>734431555
If I stop eating dairy will I get a qt girlfriend like that?

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I went vegetarian after watching Earthlings about 3 or 4 years ago. I went vegan a few months after that.

My health improved when I went vegetarian, but it really improved dramatically when I went vegan. I reversed some digestive issues I had, lost a bunch of weight, had more energy, and just feel better in general. I laugh when I hear people try to perpetuate the "vegans are weak and unhealthy" stereotype, because it certainly wasn't true for me. I'm way healthier than I was when I ate meat, and I still eat processed junk and don't exercise enough. Those are habits that I'm planning on changing, but just cutting meat, eggs, and dairy out of my diet did fucking wonders.

I really hope you give it a shot. Even if you just cut out meat, try it and see how you feel.

>>734431576
There is no good argument in favor of eating meat. There are many in favor of going vegan, beyond the environmental, and include health and ethical concerns.

>>734432129
Fun fact: you'll also feel a lot better if you just reduce your meat consumption. You don't need to eliminate it altogether.

>>734431987
I live in a farm state. I can buy eggs from local farmers who have chickens that live in coupes and walk around in a field all day. I would have to pay $6 for a dozen, but if I can avoid supporting that then that's okay I suppose.

>>734431972
Fisting the cow sees a little fucked.

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>>734431770
>I don't know why I feel this way

Because you're a human being who is waking up to your cognitive dissonance

>>734431016
If you're in the US, Whole Foods sells a vegetarian burger patty that's pretty damn good. In their 365 range. My wife's a vegetarian. I'm not, but those burgers are tasty. There's also a vegetarian burger getting released by Impossible Foods. It's a start up, I've heard people can't taste the difference.

>>734432229
>There is no good argument in favor of eating meat
It tastes good and there's nothing morally wrong with it.
>health
That's a personal matter. People are free to do all sorts of things that aren't healthy for them. There are plenty of vegan foods that are shit for your health.
>ethical concerns
There are no ethical concerns.

>>734431972
>There's nothing morally wrong going on in that video

I don't think you actually believe that. If you weren't just throwing up a wall, you would at least be able to recognize why other people find it objectionable. You're being purposefully obtuse, because deep down, it actually bothers you.

>>734432129
I'd going to try it. Just seems like it will be difficult to get used to the diet.

>>734432079
Avoiding sadness seems rational to me. I don't want to feel guilty about eating a meal. I don't want a chickens life to equate to a day's meal.

>>734429866
Keep in mind we breed animals on farms, to eat. If we didnt, they would never have lived at all.

>>734432385
>I don't think you actually believe that.
I do though.
>you would at least be able to recognize why other people find it objectionable
Because they are having a misfiring of an emotional reaction that evolved so they can sympathize with other humans.
>You're being purposefully obtuse, because deep down, it actually bothers you.
Nope.

>>734431770
Veganism is a communist plot to make men impotent, protein/ testosterone deficient.

They are pumping you chalk full of estrogen and letting your hormones run wild. They want us to lose our muscle/fat ratio so we have the strength of women.

You really think it's a coincidence that people JUST started feeling bad about eating animals within the past few generations? Around the same time that Marxism emerges?

Sympathzing with your food is not normal.

Notice when an animal does this in the wild, it's not "aww compassion", everyone knows it's the result of traumatic injury/PTSD to the animals brain.

But when a human does it, it's about feels: muh morals n shiet.


Stop letting the Marxists brainwash you.

>>734432037
Sadly, there aren't. The dairy and egg industries don't need males, so male cows are sold off for veal and baby male chicks are killed off and discarded.

But you're right, it is hard enough. I started off going vegetarian, and that is a great place to start. Just stop eating meat, and continue educating yourself

>>734432445
>Avoiding sadness seems rational to me.
Alternate solution then: realize that there's no reason to feel sad about it. Seek counseling if you need help.

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>>734429866
Plants are living things too. So instead of killing something that has the ability to fight back, you just yank veggies and fruits from the ground/their tree and murder them with the thought that you're not killing. How cruel can you be.

>>734432350
This gives me hope. Thanks anon

>>734432284
Valid idea. I do believe most people at their core think that killing is wrong, but we are told from birth that people eat animals, even though this day and age their is no need to, only a want to. However I respect peoples right to eat as they choose, I just want something different for me.

>>734432266
Fun fact: That's just one of the reasons to go vegan. Animal agriculture is a multifaceted issue, affecting the health of individuals, the environment, the well-being of animals and the ethical concerns with exploiting them, and the spread of major communicable diseases.

>>734429866
Trying it out now, and I'm happy and healthy. Doing it for the ethics, I don't think it's right for me to eat meat when there are so many alternatives.

>>734432686
> I do believe most people at their core think that killing is wrong
Do you have a problem when clean your kitchen counter, killing bacteria? Killing can be fine and even perfectly normal. It's murder that's the problem.

>>734432575
Or, you know, you could stop being an antagonizing fuck and let this guy make his own ethical decisions like a big boy.

>>734429866
its not that hard, go for it and if dont like it u can go back.

>>734432780
Fun fact: I can talk about all of those things as well and how vegans are hypocrites at best.
>the well-being of animals and the ethical concerns with exploiting them
Still not a real reason.

>>734432381
You're a joke. Even if you don't personally have any qualms about killing animals, you should be able to recognize that there are ethical concerns. Why would anyone take you seriously when you make it clear that you won't take their concerns into consideration?

>>734432824
False equivalency, the post

>>734432515
Either a bad troll or a tinfoil hat. Vegetarians and vegans have existed for hundreds of years. There is no plot to cut off your balls.

>>734432556
Thanks. Will do.

>>734432575
I think feeling guilt for taking a life is normal, I don't want to not feel bad about that.

>>734432625
But plants do not know that they are alive or value that life. They rely on their fruit being eaten to spread seeds even. The difference is eating something that values its life verses eating something that doesn't even know that it is alive.

>>734432887
He's not making ethical decisions like a big boy though. His morality boils down to "I shouldn't do things because they make me sad." That's the morality of a child.

>>734432460
What does that have to do with anything?

Also, wouldn't it make it more fucked up to breed something into existence for the sole purpose of killing it? What kind of life is that ? Personally, if I could choose between that life and not living, I would choose not living. No contest.

>>734432887
>let this guy make his own ethical decisions like a big boy.

That's an interesting thought. I pictured OP as a woman for the whole conversation. Makes you think.

Another reason people go vegan: sexual abuse as a child.

They see animals as helpless which reminds them of themselves getting abused as children.

Gee, I wonder who promotes the idea of sexual relationships with children.

Dingdingding! That's right. The cultural Marxists.

So, your Marxists teachers make you read books in highschool/Uni like the Beat Generation which talks about how gay sex with little kids can be fun even if the kid is getting raped he will cum uncontrollably. Then they hypersexualize little girls, tempting people to rape them.

They want you to be abused. They want you to see the entire world as simply oppression.

They want you to see food as oppression. Nature itself as oppression.
Family as oppression. Authority as oppression.

You really wanna get back at the guy who molested you? Don't go vegan. Stop the cycle of Marxist indoctrination.

>>734432508
>Nope.
I believe you. /s

>>734432976
>should be able to recognize that there are ethical concerns
There aren't any that hold up though.
>Why would anyone take you seriously when you make it clear that you won't take their concerns into consideration?
Because I already have taken them into consideration and found them lacking.

Why should I keep taking vegans seriously even though they keep saying things like "deep down, you really already know killing animals is wrong" as if they know me.

>>734432625
Plants are not sentient. If you can't tell the difference between sentient life and non-sentient life, you are pretty dumb. I'm not sure what help there is for you, and I hope that you're just trolling and don't actually think like that.

>>734433158
I don't really care if you believe me or not. You remind me of Christian fundamentalists who say that everyone knows that God exists.

>>734433288
There's clearly a difference, it just isn't relevant.

>>734433134
1/10. I replied.

>>734433034
It's not just that it makes me sad, it's why it makes me sad. Surely, even as someone who disagrees, you can see the moral dilemma with cruel treatment and killing of animals right? Taking their life without even blinking an eye.

>>734433193
>There aren't any that hold up though.
Killing holds up to me. Killing when, in modern times, there is no need for it. You don't have to agree, but surely you can acknowledge the logic behind people who may view it this way?

>>734433034
What's it like being a sociopath, anon?

>>734432941
What the fuck does that even mean? I think your atherosclerosis is affecting the blood flow to your brain, son.

I don't know what vegans being hypocrites has to do with any of that other stuff, but yeah, animal welfare is a reason to not eat animals.

Are you really that stupid, or just being antagonistic?

>>734433431
>Surely, even as someone who disagrees, you can see the moral dilemma with cruel treatment and killing of animals right?
No, I can't. All I ever see from people who have a dilemma with it is that it makes them feel sad. There's a reason vegan videos are filled with images designed to create an emotional response rather than just giving a good moral argument against it.

>>734429866
Good luck with it.

I'm very casually cutting out most meat and dairy, but I still partake sometimes.

I think it's mostly a kind of cultural indoctrination that makes us think the modern slaughter and dairy industry is perfectly OK. It's fucked up, when you take a step back and consider the reality of it, and how unnecessary it is (in most developed countries). And actually most people, when confronted directly with the reality of what they're eating and where it came from, feel slightly repulsed... It's just very easy when everything is packaged, disembodied, sanitised, and removed from the act of killing, to see meat, milk and eggs and something other than what they are.

Translating that realisation into motivation enough to avoid all meat and dairy is difficult, though. It's easy to fall back into old habits.

Thankfully, in a lot of countries, vegetarianism isn't such a niche choice anymore. Makes it slightly easier.

Anyway, it's perfectly possible to be healthy on a vegetarian diet. You've just got to replace the nutrition that you lose.

>>734433008
You can't rewrite history to fit your Marxist worldview.

Hinduism/Jainism is not the same thing as vegetarian/veganism.

The reasons behind religious restrictions on food are spiritual/sacred, not moralist or ethical or environmental or "muh feels".

Feeling respect/sanctity for all life and sympathizing with the pain IS normal.

Feeling guilt for eating is not normal.

Guilt is a result of formerly Christian, now Marxist influence in society, which wants you to feel guilty about everything so you'll never be ambitious and be so afraid to oppress anyone that you'll never talk to a girl, get in a fight or ask for a raise.
If you really think this is a "tin foil hate theory" take a look at some of the Vegan websites. Find me a single one that doesn't have Marxist terminology/propaganda embedded within it (aside from the ones that straight up admit Marxism), and I'll show you a man that didn't look hard enough.

>>734433296
You remind me of a Christian fundamentalist who refuses to accept logical reasoning or scientific evidence, and keeps peddling your ancient and outmoded way of living as the way of God

>>734429866
don't think of it as vegetarianism. think of it as living past 50, and not dying from sugar disease or stroke.

>>734433557
>Killing when, in modern times, there is no need for it.
There is need for killing. You need to kill for most foods. Whether you are killing animals or you are killing plants, fungi, or bacteria, you are killing.
>>734433565
I'm not a sociopath. I feel deeply for my fellow man and donate my time, money, effort, and blood to help them.
>>734433590
>animal welfare is a reason to not eat animals
Not a valid one.
>just being antagonistic?
I see something that's wrong and I attack it, if that's what you mean.

>>734433599
Killing is immoral. Can we agree on that? If killing is not immoral what is immoral to you? Torture is immoral right?

If someone views sentient life as equal in value, which hopefully you can at least understand, then you should be able to see how the way animals are treated before slaughter is immoral to them right?

>>734433813
>refuses to accept logical reasoning or scientific evidence
I accept both those things though. I freely acknowledge that the farming of animals is bad for the environment and that eating meat can have detrimental effects on your health.

>>734433725
Well worded anon. Thanks.

>>734433801
Right on.

>>734433961
>Killing is immoral. Can we agree on that?
No. Is it immoral to kill disease-causing bacteria? Is it immoral to kill yeast by baking bread?
>If killing is not immoral what is immoral to you?
Harming people.
> Torture is immoral right?
Torturing people is.
>which hopefully you can at least understand
I can understand it, sure, it's just completely arbitrary.

>>734433833
My grandpa is 94 he eats meat or animal products everyday.

Maybe in Murica where you add high fructose corn syrup to your chicken breast and deep fry it in root beer, you can't live past 50 because the drinking water contains lard.

>>734433371
How is it not relevant?

It's the difference between being able to experience and not experience reality in a subjective way. If that's irrelevant, then you are saying that human life has no more value than grass. Do you really believe that, or are you stretching because your argument is incredibly weak?

>>734434263
>then you are saying that human life has no more value than grass
Not intrinsically, no. Human life subjectively has more value to us though since we are human and our societies are made up of humans. There's no reason to extend this value to everything that is sentient.

>>734434182
Why is torturing a person different from a chicken? Or cow? Monkey? Pet dog? Where do you begin to think it's wrong?

>>734434186
There have been smokers who lived passed 100. That doesn't mean that smoking is healthy. Anecdotes and statistical outliers don't demonstrate that eating meat is healthy

>>734429866
Been vegetarian for over a year, going to be going vegan soon. I feel 100% better, but its not just because meats not good for you. I improved my diet drastically because you need to pay more attention about what you eat. Groceries are cheaper though, I feel better, I can sleep now. By far one of the best choices I've made TBQH.

>>734434401
Because our society is composed of people. Allowing the torture of people is clearly and demonstrably harmful to society and the individuals within it. Torturing a chicken is not inherently harmful to society.
>Where do you begin to think it's wrong?
At people. Torturing a pet dog would only be wrong in the sense that it causes emotional distress to the dog's owner.

>>734429866
What is a vegetable?

>>734434616
Then I understand you're view.

>>734434682
A plant.

>>734434682
>>734434769
Your*

>>734434390
Intrinsically, human value does have more value than grass, and I think your view here is in the minority. Do you really reject the concept of sentience hierarchies?

>>734434811
Careful not to use big words.

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>>734434390
If value is subjective...
and I only have value because I value myself...
and animals are capable of valuing themselves...
but plants are incapable of subjective experiences...
Then animals have value,
And plants don't.

Because, the only quality a thing needs to have value, is to be able to value itself.

>>734434811
>Intrinsically, human value does have more value than grass
How so? How is it the value of life not something subjective minds give to things? The universe doesn't seem to have any sort of special consideration for life.
>I think your view here is in the minority
Very possibly. That doesn't make me wrong.
>Do you really reject the concept of sentience hierarchies?
If you are asking if I reject the idea that some things are more sentient than others, then no. If you are asking if sentience should correspond with moral standing, then no.

>>734435180
see
>>734435160

>>734435160
>and animals are capable of valuing themselves
Which would give them value to themselves, not to me.
>Because, the only quality a thing needs to have value, is to be able to value itself.
In a sense, but that value does not necessarily extend to any other thing. An animal can value itself, but I do not value the animal.

>>734435408
I didn't say you had to value them, I said it gives them value, while plants have none.

>>734435180
So killing the homeless could only help society. Is it moral? Even though they are quite sentient, they are not helpful to society right? Anything wrong with killing them?

>>734435408
Even by your own logic, animals have value, while plants don't have any, and it is in fact because they are sentient.

It is the fact that animals can value their own lives that gives their lives value. Whether or not you choose to respect that does not change the fact that they value their own lives.

>>734435543
Except that an entity capable of thought could value a plant, giving it value even if the plant cannot give it to itself. Consider a pet plant or favorite tree, for instance.

>>734435689
Ok, let's consider it. Then isn't it a problem, by your own logic, because it's an affront to the owner of said plant? If the plant was unowned or not valued by a sentient being, then there is no issue of it being valued.

>>734435624
>So killing the homeless could only help society.
It wouldn't though. Your surface level reading of morality is laughably bad and common.
>Anything wrong with killing them?
A number of things. For instance, if non-homeless thought they could be killed just for becoming homeless, they would be motivated to do anything and everything to not become homeless, including murdering the non-homeless.

>>734433008
>I think feeling guilt for taking a life is normal, I don't want to not feel bad about that.

>eating a burger is equatable to personally murdering someone
And this is why I don't understand vegans. Hell of a fucking jump. Plus, we're at the top of the food chain to the point where we're manipulating natural selection to breed traits desirable to us. That's pretty fucking apex, to me.

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>>734435905
>Apex

Word, brah. We're totally, like, the apex! It means we can, like, do whatever, because we're cool. Yeah! We're totally apex!

vegetarianism and veganism are steps backwards in evolution. If you feel bad start eating free range or grass fed meat and eat smaller amounts. A healthy diet is primarily plant based with small amounts of meat to supplement extra protein along with eggs and tofu

>>734435896
>If the plant was unowned or not valued by a sentient being, then there is no issue of it being valued.
Correct.
>>734435647
>animals have value
Subjectively, sure.
>Whether or not you choose to respect that does not change the fact that they value their own lives.
So here's the question: how is this actually relatable back to the subject? They value their lives. That's fine. I do not, and the moral objection still does not stand.

>>734435905
>manipulating natural selection to breed traits desirable to us

That's actually probably a bad thing, not a good thing. Not sure how you see that as "apex," must be because you're not studied up on some of the side effects of that push

>>734435905
I think the logic is:
If everyone refused to eat meat, meat industry would stop existing and that means nobody would kill animals.

>>734435902
You're missing the point of the question. Say you could kill a person. It would have no consequences and you would get cut a nice check. You get to walk away. No consequences to you or society.

Would you do it? If not, why? Because they are a sentient creature that is shaped like you?

What if they were mentally handicapped to the point of having the same level of awareness as a cow? Then would you kill him?

It's clear you have a line, but where?

>>734436163
So you would have no objection to being treated as livestock are treated? As long as you have an objection to that, then there is still a moral obligation. Your failure to empathize does not constitute an argument, you should still be able to see what the moral objection is, even if you don't personally feel it. This still feels like you're being purposefully obtuse.

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>>734436163
I think we're dealing with a legitimate sociopath here

I'm a vegetarian myself and i would say that the truth is in the middle.
I would say meat once every two weeks.
But if you really want it than you can do it, but sometimes its really hard.

>>734436327
>You're missing the point of the question.
No, I get it. This ain't my first rodeo about morality.
>No consequences to you or society.
There are consequences to society though. Such a society allows for people to be killed with no consequences to the killer. This would in itself be harmful to a society.
>Because they are a sentient creature that is shaped like you?
Nope, because it's harmful to society.
>What if they were mentally handicapped to the point of having the same level of awareness as a cow?
Level of awareness is not a meaningful criteria to my morality.
>It's clear you have a line, but where?
At people, as I have already said. People should only be harmed / killed if it is necessary.

>>734436246
With the meat industry gone, there'd be even more jobless people. Eventually leading to more homeless people or people killing themselves because they can't feed their families. And all that just because people stopped eating meat. Is that really what you want? Please think about the consequences before you propose such irrational ideas.

>>734436056
>>734436226
>being in a position to literally selectively breed entire species something for traits that make it taste better doesn't mean you're at the top of the food chain

You what?

>that's probably a bad thing

>presents no argument, insists own stance is right
You people DO love the moral high ground, but really? Moral high ground because "of course I'm right lol read a book"?
Whatever helps you sleep at night...

>>734436408
>So you would have no objection to being treated as livestock are treated?
I would have an objection in the sense that I wouldn't like it. However, the alien race that is treating me that way would be perfectly justified if I am too alien to be a member of their society.
>As long as you have an objection to that,
I wouldn't have a moral objection to that.
>This still feels like you're being purposefully obtuse.
Nope.
>>734436582
I don't think I'm a sociopath. I help my fellow man.

>>734436688
But there would be way more jobs for veg-farmers

>>734436603
But I'm saying there are none for this scenario. No one knows, no one will find out.

There is only a benefit to you at the cost of a useless human life. Someone no more intelligent than the animals you consume every day.

Society will not be harmed in this hypothetical scenario at all.

So if you would not kill the person even under these circumstances why? Because they are technically a person? A person with the same value as a pig?

Does it come down to emotions for you?

Can we deal with facts?
>protein from animal sources have an overwelmingly higher level of bioavailability.
>you have to eat 4x the amount of vitamin A from plant sources to get what a single serving of liver gives you.
>there is a correlation between increased saturated fat intake and increased levels of testosterone production (hormones in general).
>your brain is made of cholesterol
>your cells need cholesterol to repair themselves.
>meat is a complete set of amino acids and are needed for muscle gains, sustination, and repair.
>beef and pork contain zinc which has known effects on testosterone production and immune system support.
>meat contains collogen that your hair and nails need to grow.

The list goes on and on. We evolved from a common monkey ancestor because we started to eat meat. Our increase in cholesterol in our diet caused our brains to grow. We have cognitive ability due to this.

These are FACTS.

>>734436950
I don't think so. One of the arguments of vegans is that we need to produce more food for the animals we meat eaters eat. So there'd even more jobs be lost when the animals wouldn't have to be fed anymore.

I'm vegan-ish (I avoid animal products when convenient, which is most of the time unless I'm at a friends place or something).

The best argument against eating animal products for me is efficiency. Animals were never "designed" to be massed produced. Plants aren't either, but they are much simpler and have less of an environmental impact.

The best argument for eating animal products for me is convinience and safety. Not everyone can be vegan and healthy at the same time. There are also some that can, but would require a shit ton of research and effort. The omnivore diet is tried and tested, the vegan diet is (in my opinion) still kinda experimental. I believe veganism can work, but you must do research if you cut out animal products from your diet.

Once in-vitro meat is affordable and ecologically sound, I will go back to eating meat regularly.

>>734436957
>But I'm saying there are none for this scenario.
Your scenario is internally inconsistent, because the consequence is inherent to the situation.
>No one knows, no one will find out.
You know.
>Society will not be harmed in this hypothetical scenario at all.
Yes, it is, as you and the victim are both part of the society.
>A person with the same value as a pig?
They don't have the same value as a pig though. The person is a member of society. The pig is not.

>>734429866
>tfw forced to be vegan cause body can't take in meat anymore

>>734429866
Vegetarian of 15 years here. The start will be difficult, but nowadays there are enough meat like alternatives. Give it a try and see how it works out, you can always go back.

Pro tip: the world doesn't understand it and it's best to keep it to yourself.

Good luck anon

>>734429866
Plants probably don't want to die either, murderer

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>>734436704
God forbid we use that technology to make food that's healthy and nutritious, instead of making mutant animals whose only respite is their inevitable execution "because they taste good"

No, our taste for flesh is some pretty basic bullshit. A real "apex" intelligence would figure out a system that it could feed itself with that wasn't also killing itself, wasn't destroying its own environment, wasn't the breeding ground for some of the most vicious communicable diseases, and wasn't rendering it's own medicine obsolete from having to overdose livestock on antibiotics.

"Because it taste good durr!"

>>734436992
Those are not facts, lol. Sources, please

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>>734437409

>>734429866
Kill yourself

>>734437435
>apex "intelligence"
>during the discussion of killing animals and consuming meat
10/10 fucking understanding of the topic. Totally didn't just pick something tangential in order to make a point, no sir!

>an apex predator would find a way to not kill
Anon, an apex predator wouldn't give a shit. If it was vegan, it wouldn't very well be a fucking PREDATOR, now, would it?

>>734437762
Right on.

>>734436688

The job argument is silly for ANY position. If jobs are lost it's because we live in a more efficient society which is good. Imagine if suddenly, we discover a plant that can be easily grown and magically cures pretty much anything. The healthcare industry would lose so many jobs. But I hope you can agree that destroying that plant once and for all to preserve jobs is a silly idea.

If anything, the job argument only suggests that change that results in the loss of jobs should happen slowly so that the market has time to adjust.

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>>734437764
Oh, were you trying to say that humans are apex PREDATORS?!

That's fucking rich. No, no we are not. You don't really understand the concept of apex predators, do you?

>>734433158
kys faggot

>>734437435
>>734437764
My bad. Misread part in the middle, which makes the second point not a point. Just woke up. How about this, then?

>no amount of meat is healthy or nutritious
Meat isn't nutritious? That's why it's such a much more dense source of protein than vegetarian alternatives, right? Not to mention amino acids.
If you over-eat anything, it'll be unhealthy. There is a healthy amount of meat you can eat.

>>734438006
So we're talking magic now. Well, I guess production of that magically takes care of itself. And people pay for it from their trees that grow money.
Thanks for the conversation.

>>734438290
I didn't say that no amount of meat was healthy or nutritious, but let me take a stab at it...

No amount of meat is necessary, and it's been shown that meat intake correlates with health, so that while a little bit might not be that bad for you, none is even better for you.

Kind of like how one cigarette a day isn't a pack a day, but it's not as good as just not smoking at all.

>>734438084
Physically? No. We're outclassed in everything but endurance.
As a species? We've damn near removed ourselves from being on other animals' menus, and are in a position to literally farm thousands of just about any animal there's demand for.

That's about as efficient as the consumption of meat gets.

We're not biologically apex, we're artificially apex.

>>734438410

Sure, forget the thought experiment if you want. My argument still holds. A more efficient system will require less work and therefore less jobs. People shouldn't focus on creating jobs, they should focus on creating value. They often go hand in hand but not always.

>>734438543
Biologically, we have big brains and the opposable thumbs to use them.

Suck on it dolphins.

>>734438543
But that's not what an apex predator is.

An apex predator is the top predator in its ecosystem, usually something like a big cat. It's an efficient killer, and usually exist in small populations, because big populations couldn't be sustained with the amount of killing they do.

Humans are agricultural creatures. We grow and raise our own food.

We are the most dominate species on the planet, which is why when someone (you?) said "apex" earlier I assumed they meant it like that and not that we were the apex predator. There's a huge difference between what we do and what apex predators do

>>734438873
Are we NOT at the top in our eco-system, though?

Like I said, there's a physical difference, of course. But we ARE at the top of the food chain as a species, due to technology and the artificial environments we've built.

>>734438515
No amount is necessary, sure. How much extraneous shit does our society have, though? I'm sure if that was the goal, there'd be things we'd want to tackle far before meat.

And if that's the case as an absolute, why don't most high performance athletes just eat vegan or vegetarian? They're in fantastic health (bar steroid use), and they eat meat. Absolutely, eating MORE meat is bad, but there is more than likely SOME amount of it that's ok to eat without negative impact. Cigarettes will always have negative impact.

>>734439187
We don't HUNT.

We GROW.

We're not the top hunters, we're the top raise-them-from-birth-and-kill-them-in-infancy-ers.

>>734439242
Look up "vegan athletes," don't make me do the legwork because you're too lazy. There are plenty, and my guess is that the reason more athletes aren't vegan are the same reasons more of the general population isn't vegan yet either - people have been spreading bad information for a long time, like the kind you've been getting.

>>734439242
Also, as far as "extraneous shit" our society has, going vegan is an issue of personal responsibility. It's taking responsibility for YOUR actions, it's not about what other people do or don't do. Are you doing what you think is right, or are you making excuses to keep doing what you've always done?

>>734439321
Ok, conceding apex predators. We're still at the top of the food chain with the ability to mass-harvest meat. We are THE dominant species, especially when it comes to the ability to eat others. And I'd say the method of killing (piston to the brain) is at the very least close to the most humane way to kill.

>>734439717
Actually, the captive bolt gun is a method of stunning, not killing. The actual killing is done by throat slitting most of the time, with the animal being hung upside down and bled out.

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Please watch this documentary on Australian pig farming

>>734439928
https://youtu.be/KArL5YjaL5U
oops...

>>734439561
Personally, I don't find eating meat objectionable. If I were thoroughly concerned with the ethical treatment of animals, I'm sure I could find sources for my meat that are free-range and whatever else. I don't think. Killing an animal for food is morally reprehensible, especially with the piston we use on cows. But the way I see it, as humans, we're biologically animals, but we've removed ourselves from the "natural" way of doing things so far that I don't really think it's all that comparable.

>>734439864
That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. I was under the impression that slitting the throat was one of the significant differences between kosher/halal meat and non. I'll have to look into that, if that's the case.

https://youtu.be/tQ7ELpy2M2E

Note that the workers on the line still slit the throat after the pig has been hit in the head with the captive bolt. Also note the pig that has been hit with the bolt that is still clearly conscious and screaming

Was very healthy, but not happy. You'll will be looked down upon by other people, not all but enough to make you feel lesser. It's more expensive if you do it wrong, which is way too easy to do, but you will have absolutely killer fat burning capabilities albeit with lowered muscle gains. Really good for resetting your diet and cutting fat before taking in more protein and building muscle. So it's basically the most effective at some point if you want a good body, but not essential. You will also miss meat, you might say you won't but you will, and that's one of the worst parts.

>>734440193
I hate that. It's horrifying. No ones thinks about that when they eat their pork chops. We are so disconnected from our food.

>>734440330
Oh I KNOW I will. I love to east cheeseburgers, grilled chicken, BBQ.

But I think it will be worth it.

>>734440330
I miss the idea of meat more than I actually miss meat. I have gone back to eating it, and it never tasted as good as I remembered it tasting. It certainly didn't taste good enough to make up for all the ethical concerns I have

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>>734440439
That's so true. I think most people would think twice if they actually knew. Most people don't want to know, though, so they build walls.

>>734440528
Gardein makes really good chicken alternatives. Their bbq pulled not-pork pockets are really good too

https://youtu.be/l7xuJW01Z1U

I think everyone should watch this movie. I found it when I was looking for gore videos and shit that would shock me, and it really made me think in a way that I never expected. It's called Earthlings

>>734440193
have you seen what a thresher does to plants? both are alive why is one worse than the other?

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>>734441349

>>734441551
These images are pretty funny. Spot on too.

>>734441165
I bookmarked this and will watch it when I get home. Thank you.

>>734437280
I see you are discussing morality here, what is your stance on useless suffering, and on empathy ?

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>>734442598
Thank you, anon