With reason as the starting point of this discussion, and given the scientific knowledge available, it makes sense to consider necessary for personhood to have some sort of hardware that has the required structures for a self aware consciousness capable of reason, even if it is not yet actively doing. We dont know when this happens exactly (the formation of the required hardware), but we can be pretty sure it does not happen before synaptogenesis. So yeah, it should be legal up until that point.
The amount of times cuck was used in this thread is essentially proof /b/ is composed of autistic, retarded, inbred faggots. You all should have been aborted... Would have been better than the neet lives you're living, anyway.
>>726905352 Hey dipshit, cuck was used twice in response to the same comment. How's out feel to be outsmarted by someone with down syndrome? Bleach will cure your problem if taken orally and in large quantities.
>>726905777 Yeah, murdering an embryo/foetus. It's ironic because I see so many people on here laugh at people dying and saying stuff like "he was a nigger so he deserved to die anyway," but killing an embryo is terrible?
>>726905757 Dude, if you won't a pizza, then you shouldn't order it. But when the delivery guys is front your door, and you just say "well, I change of mind pal, I don't wan't anymore this pizza, I'm not gonna pay nothing, fuck off" that is just be a dick wanting skip your responsibilities. Same with abort.
Therefore, If you don't want a son, then you shouldn't order it (Abstinence is the best)
>>726906061 I mean, the woman has plenty of time to abort the baby before it develops. It would be pretty shitty to be neglected because of that. It would be extremely unlikely for a woman to want to take care of a baby like that, especially if it was a product of an extremely abusive rape like a kidnap or something similar.
>>726903331 Why does everything needs to be so polarised now, its not the question of completely lagal do what you want, or completely prohibited because its bad and bad is not good.
I guess the answear is somewhere in the middle, allow abortion in those cases when mothers life is in danger, when fetus is damaged and would result in highly dysfunctional human beeing, when the pregnancy is result of a rape and mother doesn't want it. But don't allow people to just treat it as "oh shit" button when they fucked up.
>>726904378 you kill more life every time you wank than whatever's growing in an uterus a week after conception. come to think fo it. how dare you shed skin cells. kill yourself so you can never harm anyone again
>>726908726 Morals arent exclusive to religion. The thing about evil is that its a constant. You could never fight it in any realistic way. Evil is also a part of every person, to some degree or another. Hell, youre here, so you should know this if youre not a newfag.
>>726908721 Depends on the country obviously, but yes it does, and i accept the law, and "do what you want" stand is way better than prohibiting it i would say. What people beeing anti-abortion pro-life etc don't get, is that under this law, they are free to not abort, and they are also free to change peoples minds about it, prohibiting it would result in huge ammount of unregistered, often dangerous abortions.
>>726903331 The law has no right over free will involving what a person does on or in his/her own body. Anti-abortion laws are just stepping stones to gradually allowing the law to mandate bar code tattoos, ID implants, GPS implants, trade implants, mood behavior long-term med dispensers, mandated surgeries, etc. The "pro life" argument being about morality is a farce. If it was true, pro life people would be against the death penalty, anti-war, pro-social programs, pro-education, etc. "Pro-life" is just authoritarian control over personal choice over one's own body, any other argument is the point of view of someone conned by the faux morality scheme.
>>726908500 Why would a woman go through the effort of letting the kid be born if she's not gonna give two shits about it anyway when she can just kill it before it even develops? There goes your first world education, I seriously hope you are shitposting.
>>726909501 >He is the Fedora Tipper. >The one, true superhero whose superpower is fedora tipping. >Watch as he confronts his enemy and says his famous line! "M'lady" >The enemy falls to the floor, confused, dazed.
idk its murder. Wouldnt have my bitch do it, cause I dont like the idea of it, but if she wanted it id let her. its not my buisness what she does with her body. rather her do it safe at a clinic than at like someones house and die.
yes. the world is actively telling humanity to fuck off, so no, we don't need any more people. anyone against early-term abortion defends such a position has no argument outside of nonsecular nonsense.
>>726909779 Never said they were faking it. How exactly do you expect to deal with a militant muslim, hell, a militant anyone, with the power or your religion? Thats a story i gotta hear, i havent had a good laugh in ages.
>>726909613 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." -Revelation 22:11
And circumcision should be obligatory for everyone. This in the only way to prevent that disguting habit of "self-rape" (masturbation)
>>726910901 That sarcastic statement was the most intelligent thing youve said this entire thread. Personally, i dont care what you believe. Its when you push it on other people that it becomes a problem.
>>726912276 Before synaptogenesis it pretty much is. And cryonics has advanced. Ice crystals no longer shatter your cells with newer techniques.
>>726912368 Read again. In fact, I will quote >it makes sense to consider necessary for personhood to have some sort of hardware that has the required structures for a self aware consciousness capable of reason, even if it is not yet actively doing it. >not yet actively doing it
>>726912424 >implying britian didnt enslave people >implying slavery was only done by whites Ill give ya the taxes part, though the main problem was taxation without representation >>726912426 Is that all you know how to say?
>>726908633 Not even equatable, but you wouldn't understand. The sperm can't live outside the nuts for very long, that's why they're frozen. By freezing them we perserve what little life they have before they expend all their energy trying to impregnate an egg. Skin cells die naturally, as part of their natural life cycle. An unborn child can, if brought full term, both support itself, hopefully once grown, then will die some time later, preferably due to old age. The strawman is strong in this one.
Also, no. If you can't be responsible enough to make sure your sexual encounters don't bring forth another life then you should either A) have to learn tge hard way or B) kill the child and go to jail for being a shitty person.
>>726913093 Society won't live up to your ideology, Champ. I mean, I believe people should actively try to learn and grow, look at things from other perspectives, and not be so dogmatic about their own beliefs, but even if I make it a law you're still going to sit in the privacy of your home and never challenge your own belief system.
Making it illegal will go back to those marvelous days of back alley abortions where mother and child died. Only now, the kidneys and liver will be harvested afterward.
So since people aren't going to stop being stupid (society proves this), nor are they going to stop being irresponsible, society needs to adapt. How we handle the problem is a different story, but simply saying "well, people shouldn't do it," isn't a solution.
If you're anti-abortion, perhaps you should call for your politicians to make it more financially possible to raise a child. Or demand more funding into medical research to prevent harsh birth defects.
Or you can mind your own fucking business and live life as you see fit and not insist everyone else should over something that has no impact on society.
>>726913653 Defining life is not about morality, it is biology. I see nothing sacred about life or anything. Nobody has proved something like that.
The coma case can be different situations. Depending on the situation, it is ok to uplug them or not. The basic criteria for that is the status of their hardware. Read my original argument again and you will realize it is the only reason based argument. No muh feels. No convenience. No bogus morality. Just facts and logic.
>>726913895 Oh really? Because I'm pretty sure we still do this. Remember those times we invaded sovereign nations because they were putting up governments we didn't like? Remember that time the US invaded Grenada to send a message to everyone else that dropping out of the global trade is not an option? Don't pretend like we're moral people now. The only difference is we don't crowd around the guillotine; we're still perfectly content that it's being used.
Besides, moral actions are really just subject to interpretation. I think it's perfectly moral for you to stab the guy banging your wife, but society disagrees with me.
>>726913628 Or you can just let "evolution" take its natural route and let those incapable of being responsible kill themselves off. I see no reason why we should prevent an adult from making their own choices over their life but when you stast threatening the livelihood of another, that's when you've done wrong to another. With the way things are going, Darwin will never be able to make sure that only the "strongest" survive. Do you really want that?
>>726913268 Yeah, it's harsh but some people wont learn unless you let them.
>>726913378 Thanks for siding with me? >>726913662 What do you fail to comprehend, nigger?
what if she wants to have unprotected sex but niether want to have a kid they just dont like the fact that condoms make sex suck and they dont want to be held back by the burden of a crying sack of flesh called a "baby"
>>726914299 A lot of people who should have been killed by natural selection are surviving now because of all the safety precautions and medicine. We're not letting natural selection take its course, anyway.
>>726914566 >> I dont think youre in the position to decide what will prolong the longevity of your country. Then who is? You? Why you? Who after you? Your children? What if they don't share your views?
>>I know well that we are not perfect people, but it shouldn't be up for debate whether you should kill your child.
Then who is? You? The state? If police justify it, is it fine? Or are your statements arbitrary and to be defined at a later point?
>>You getting cucked doesnt justift murder lol. I feel it does. You feel it doesn't. Not everyone has the same opinion as you, and that doesn't make them wrong nor does it make you right.
>>726914662 So why encourage it by adding more safty nets? You are working against evolution by preventing stupidity from killing itself off. The answer is: make it illegal and let the people who don't want the child so much to get illegal abortions where they're likely to die.
>>726915036 If it's natural belief that killing is wrong, why are so many cultures built around it? Why is it consistently the means to an end? Why is it how countries inevitably end disputes? It seems to me, natural instinct is to kill your opposition, provided nobody will kill you in return.
To all these faggots, I couldn't give a fuck less about abortion, just don't make me pay for it in any way shape or form. Don't take my taxes and subsidize it, don't make any healthcare provider cover it and all that jazz.
>b-but muh free abortion
Nigger if you want to kill babies, pay for it yourself. Your poor excuses and life choices do not make it ok to ask for others to end your u desirable offspring.
>>726914952 >kill the ones who don't deserve to live What? Either I'm missing something or this statement stands: Dude, your making a terrible argument for pro-life. And I'm with you. Get cold, let those who can make choices fuck themselves over and protect those who can't. Exception for the children. My question is: how do we define whose an adult and who is a child? I'm kinda partial to: is sexually organs working? If yes: adult* else child
*teens, let them fuck themselves over but offer protection for the more experenced adults
>>726915262 Lol. Yeah, I'm sure most wars were fought out of self defense. Unless your argument is "everyone else is some form of threat and they may eventually harm me or someone else, thus I should kill them." If that's the case, why be anti-abortion?
>>726913907 This. I've seen videos of people who've had partial lobotomies or partial brain damage, and they don't function fully. If you can't function like a human, can you really be considered human? A fetus doesn't have hardware that could even allow it to function like a human, not even close.
The appeal to emotion pro lifers use is frustrating because it has bo basis in logic.
>>726915332 You tards that like arguments from potentiality so much, why not abort a fetus that is very likely to grow up as an unloved, broken family, poverty stricken child to later be a murderer or a criminal of any sort?
inb4 that is just a possibility Same with the pregnancy. Natural miscarriages are a thing. It is in the end just a matter of comparing odds.
>>726903331 Not only should abortion be 100% legal, reproductive rights should also be extended to men, i. e., the father should be able to legally cast aside all rights and responsibilities for the fetus and the human being that might come out of it, since that is what women can effectively do by having the abortion.
>>726915586 Neither, if I wanted to be a father I can afford it and take up on it. right now I don't want kids so I wear condoms and make sure these bitches are on the pill. I personally do not believe in abortion because it is murder.
I can't speak for others this is why I don't care if you kill your own. If anything Bitch kill more just don't make another fag pay for it that's all
>>726915651 I need no authority. I am right and do not rely on bullshit moral assumptions that are fake as shit. Read the original argument, think a little, and try to address it (and fail).
>>726915760 Objectively nobody deserves anything. That is just a useful term we use in society to designate reward and punishment for certain actions. And my argument is as far as it gets from fucking feels.
>>726915827 If someone poses an imminent threat on your life or the life of another, you have the right to defend yourself and others, if killing is necessary, they put themselves in the position to have their life taken
Obviously im not saying rading villages and bombing countries is okay because they pose an opposition to your country
>>726915798 ... Except shit happens. Condoms break, women still get pregnant on birth control. Society is not going to stop having sex just because they're poor. In fact, they're seem to be more likely to do it, so we have to come up with some form of solution instead of ideology that is just preached to ignore a problem.
>>726915494 >4 years ago >Had my 1st gf >She got pregnant >She was crying about how she was gonna abort it >I didn't care, it's not a human >She got the abortion, I can't know for sure but I feel it's possible that she felt something change with her >I was happier than ever, cause we ended up not working out at all together >She's excelling in her photography career now and im enjoying my life and progressing through my career Abortion is great, people make mistakes sometimes and deserve second chances
>>726915818 Sign, well then you've got other problems ... and peoples lives you've ruined, but good for you, I guess. plz b troll tho, cause I've seen what can happen to the little ones that have been abused. It's annoying as fuck and caused me to stop being a wanna be pedo.
>>726915969 It's actually not that hard to do it if everyone jumps aboard
>reduce welfare for single mothers >shame and frown upon bastard children >after the first born out of wedlock or missing father you get your shit tied to receive government help if refused then no help for you >teach an actual sex Ed class in high school >provide contraceptives to men and women >reward marriages with equal rights >return the at fault divorce whether cause by men or women I.e cheating
>>726915896 >Objectively nobody deserves anything. That is just a useful term we use in society to designate reward and punishment for certain actions. So then should we not write laws that give freedoms to people? They don't deserve it so let anyone do anything they want to anyone else because, objectively, nobody deserves anything.
>>726915941 Your rules and guidelines only work in constrained circumstance; they do not work in application. How do you determine who the genuine threat is in need of extermination? What if the person you killed gained the upper hand on someone trying to kill them and you came in at the wrong time?
What if the person being killed deserved to die under your guidelines?
What if you're carrying a deadly pathogen that's highly contagious and your very existence is a threat through no fault of your own?
It's nice to have nice little guidelines, but the problem with ethics is that they're never neat and tidy; there are always circumstance.
My issue with pro-lifers isn't necessarily that they're pro-life, it's their instance on imposing their beliefs on other people over a subject that has no impact on society for something as deeply personal and traumatizing as abortion. And you try to justify it under strict ideologies and failed "reason" and "logic," but ignore the logical arguments against the view.
I have consistently beaten down your arguments and you've consistently refused to change your view at all. Your personal ideologies should have no power over mine so long as my ideologies do not harm you.
The function of law is to maintain social order, and laws that do nothing to correct societal issues have no place in genuine law. The typical concept of murder/homicide has a negative impact on society, same with theft, assault, etc. That is why laws and justice are necessary. Abortion has no actual affect on society, therefor there's no reason for society to have a say in it.
>>726913907 >I see nothing sacred about life or anything. Okay, you willing to give up your live and all your belongings? No? Then your life is sacred to you, along with your belongings. Granted you wouldn't give up either.
>>726916423 Then you shouldn't eat meat. Or use products harvested that wreck ecosystems and kill other lifeforms. Or outsource manufacturing to 3rd world countries which ruins air quality and kills hundreds of thousands of people.
If you want the moral high ground, kill yourself.
Besides, you still didn't even adress the man's facts about synaptogenesis
Truth, including morality related truth, is provisional. It changes according to an ever increasing (and ever more detailed and reality matching) data set and starting points. If we consider all of existence a system and we want to remain contradiction free, then we cannot define truth within this system
Since we cannot define absolute moral truth (or any truth unless we have access to some meta-reality (so far we do not)) within reasonable means (and without assuming it) and because the only way for us to have meaningful discussions despite differing starting points and/or values is to use reason, it follows that it does not make sense to impose our value judgments of right and wrong without proper rational justification (which would be impossible since our value judgements stem from ethical frameworks that might be arbitrary, not shared and not a feature of reality). From this amoral void, luckily, emerges a principle of self-determination, since imposition of our value judgements would necessarily imply shitting on reason (specially on the concept of burden of proof) and using force or other means to make our morality prevalent. Also applying this selectively could easily be special pleading.
Something that I like about this approach is that you could try to measure how "well" a society is doing by quantifiable factors such as stability, information and the patterns that emerge from this self determination or lack of it (see http://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.8001v1.pdf for a rather funny example of lack of self determination disguised as the opposite at first glance...at least according to my interpretation and in the context of what I just mentioned). Of course this is just what comes to my mind and probably not the best way to measure it.
Force itself could be seen as a tool, the problem arises when it is used to skip the starting point of what we have engaged in.
>>726913093 bullshit a sperm if it finds an egg and is allowed to turn into a foetus, can, if brought full term, both support itself, hopefully once grown, then will die some time later, preferably due to old age. Worlds over populated anyway, people living with a conscious, self awareness should have rights over a parasitic bunch of cells living inside of them. You religious people are fucking weirdos.
there's one thing i want all bitches to realize, aside from an image of a fetus that's the size of a quarter and just looks like a little human. if you're old enough--i'm 40--they look just like those "muscle" figurines we have 32 years ago and were popular among kids.
ALL legally aborted fetuses are FEMALE. we all start as female. that's why men have nipples. at legal abortion age, a fetus is female.
>>726916759 Also want to add that of course there is a reality, or at least we assume there is one. But if truth is what describes correctly the features of reality, then we are always wrong. That object that you just measured is not 5,0m long, but 5.004522m long according to a more precise measurent and even then that is wrong when compared to ever more accurate measurements. This works even in a discrete universe. If you try to escape this by saying "it is between 5,0m long and 5.1m long", then you would be just saying a short version of a list of disjunctions. That is why I think a more useful definition is that which can be derived from the data set we have available.
>>726916823 It IS relative. Laws and rules don't exist (except the laws of the universe) - they're imaginary guidelines we made up to make society function better. If these were real, every society would have them and people wouldn't be killing each other over a bird's egg in Africa. We'd all have the same opinions if things weren't relative. That's the entire point. At this point I can't tell if you're trolling or retarded.
As long as none of my tax dollars goes to it or anything to assist any one who has children and doesn't work then I don't fucking care. Seriously if you have kids on welfare,I should be allowed to come over to your fucking house and stomp them to death in the fucking crib.
>>726917455 ... Because it's against my moral guideline. o.O It's also against my moral guideline to fly a plane into a building with thousands of people, but apparently, there were at least two people who felt it morally justified.
>>726916759 >Truth, including morality related truth, is provisional. It changes according to an ever increasing (and ever more detailed and reality matching) data set and starting points. If we consider all of existence a system and we want to remain contradiction free, then we cannot define truth within this system
If truth is not objective and absolute then nothing is, in cluding reason, and your words have no meaning because it is all realitive to a subjective interpretation of ones outlook on life.
Truth is a word that is like justices, it needs no modifier.
Further, I speak not of right nor wrong. I merely state that abortion should be illegal to allow those who we would save from Darwin to, probably, die if they so wish to kill another humans life.
>>726916775 And you work against evolution, good job saving people from Darwin's wrath. He'll be glad to see that he eventually won because of our own self-correcting nature. If we don't allow stupid to kill itself off and instead allow it to breed further with the rest of the population, what do you think will happen?
>>726917803 Reality is. Truth is not reality. Reality is the objective existence and truth means "in accordance with reality". We can try to define truth or just take it as the value some claims take depending on the data and models of reality we have available.
Also regarding the old debate of truth as absolute or relative, I would say we do not know and it leads to a bunch of self referential problems. Those that say it is relative see themselves trapped with one sentence that cant be relative and those that say that it is absolute simply assume it is when trying to prove it. That is why provisional truth makes more sense, as mentioned here. >>726916973
>>726910734 How do you know that you believe in the right God? I'm assuming you're Christian. How do you know that you're right and not people who believe in the other religions? There are literally thousands of 'gods', how is your one the right one?
>>726918215 >truth means "in accordance with reality" Well, according to reality, truth lines up perfectly with it. How are you conflating what is true, or reality, with what is inturpeted and believed to be true? Who gives a fuck about what I or anyone for that matter thinks is true, why not care about what is actually true? If realite just is and truth is "in accordance with reality", then truth just is.
>>726916973 >But if truth is what describes correctly the features of reality, then we are always wrong. >That is why I think a more useful definition is that which can be derived from the data set we have available. So, instead of just trying to be in accordance with reality we need to redefine truth so we're not wrong. Makes sense. What's wrong with trying to find the truth and failing? If you're not dead, you can try again and again and again. So fucking what if we get something wrong 10000 times? If we search long enough, eventually wouldn't we get it right? But you want to redefine what is, and that is a cop out.
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